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KYM Pony General VI: Return of the Poni

Last posted Apr 19, 2013 at 12:20AM EDT. Added Jul 01, 2012 at 04:43PM EDT
10166 posts from 235 users

I have no idea on the canon of MLP. Where alicorns come from has never been pinned down, so its not retconning anything (expect possibly “Word of God”) which would be the only issue for me that I can foresee. As for the fandom, I can’t be sure. The only thing I can say about it is look at the opinions of the royal couple before and after the season 2 finale. They were mostly disliked when they were first shown, and now are either fairly well liked, or the people who really dislike them keep their mouths shut. However, there is a difference between adding new characters and physically changing a central character, so I really don’t know.

Also, there are other “fairy pony” toys, but they are not based on anything in the current show.

Last edited Oct 31, 2012 at 09:21PM EDT
Oct 31, 2012 at 09:19PM EDT
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Hello there


In case any are wondering, I’m employing a “wait and see” on Disney buying Lucasfilm. I must say, the Avengers was pretty good, and that was made with Disney and distributed and advertised by them. So I will just wait. I do say, that the standing Expanded Universe better not be messed wtih.

Anyway, I wish to know how this thread is going. Anything that I could contribute to?

Last edited Oct 31, 2012 at 09:58PM EDT
Oct 31, 2012 at 09:57PM EDT
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Feels…
 
FEELS

Oct 31, 2012 at 11:01PM EDT

@Twilight w/ wings

Let me be the first to declare that I would hate detest burn down everything be greatly displeased if Twilight were suddenly made into an alicorn. This coming from a guy who has defended most of the episodes that contained material that made some waves in the fandom, like the Mysterious Mare Do Well and A Canterlot Wedding.

Even if it was just temporary, I can see no way to explain it that it wouldn’t be completely absurd. What, other than bizarre marketing ideas, could cause such a transformation? Celestia’s doing? That just wouldn’t make sense--how and why would she do that? To give Twilight some kind of authority? That could be done just as easily without the wings.

Notice that when a non-pegasus needed wings in a previous episode, they very deliberately made them a different kind of wings. And the only other time we’ve seen anything like this was when Discord took away their horns and wings in Return of Harmony, which was essentially a form of mutilation. Pony kinds have been very consistently established up until now, with individual histories that are rich and specific. Messing with all of that for the sake having another alicorn toy would just be rather pathetic.

Nope, I’d be highly surprised if such a thing wasn’t a complete turn-off for me. You can get away with some corporate meddling if it’s handled right, but something like that would just feel too far off from everything we’ve seen so far.

Last edited Oct 31, 2012 at 11:28PM EDT
Oct 31, 2012 at 11:25PM EDT
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PopperFett the Mandalore wrote:

Hello there


In case any are wondering, I’m employing a “wait and see” on Disney buying Lucasfilm. I must say, the Avengers was pretty good, and that was made with Disney and distributed and advertised by them. So I will just wait. I do say, that the standing Expanded Universe better not be messed wtih.

Anyway, I wish to know how this thread is going. Anything that I could contribute to?

It’s great and all you are posting here Popper, but a post solely to remind us you are still alive is kinda pointless. I also don’t see how Disney buying Lucasfilm is related to this thread, so it’s off topic as well. If you want to know what we are discussing, just read some previous posts. Having experience, you know how quickly subjects can change.

Let me be clear that I could choose any post to point out this issue, I just chose yours, so this is not an attack against you. My apologies if it looked that way.


@Twilicorn

I’ll go with my usual spoiler stuff and will just wait and see for now.

I never really got though what the deal was against more alicorns. I understand fan alicorns, as those are major Mary Sues, but canon not so much. Just trust Hasbro in this, the previous two new alicorns (Candence and Crysalis) worrded out great as well.

Nov 01, 2012 at 12:14AM EDT
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Millennial Dan wrote:

@Twilight w/ wings

Let me be the first to declare that I would hate detest burn down everything be greatly displeased if Twilight were suddenly made into an alicorn. This coming from a guy who has defended most of the episodes that contained material that made some waves in the fandom, like the Mysterious Mare Do Well and A Canterlot Wedding.

Even if it was just temporary, I can see no way to explain it that it wouldn’t be completely absurd. What, other than bizarre marketing ideas, could cause such a transformation? Celestia’s doing? That just wouldn’t make sense--how and why would she do that? To give Twilight some kind of authority? That could be done just as easily without the wings.

Notice that when a non-pegasus needed wings in a previous episode, they very deliberately made them a different kind of wings. And the only other time we’ve seen anything like this was when Discord took away their horns and wings in Return of Harmony, which was essentially a form of mutilation. Pony kinds have been very consistently established up until now, with individual histories that are rich and specific. Messing with all of that for the sake having another alicorn toy would just be rather pathetic.

Nope, I’d be highly surprised if such a thing wasn’t a complete turn-off for me. You can get away with some corporate meddling if it’s handled right, but something like that would just feel too far off from everything we’ve seen so far.

Or… Celestia was preparing Twilight for the role of an Alicorn the Whole Time.

I get the feeling that’s where this is going, and the rest of the series isn’t in conflict with this.

I’ll try not to give out a spoiler here, but, what exactly did you think Twilight’s “Advanced Training” was going to be?

Twilight… Is Celestia’s Retainer. Her “Heir”. Even if it’s not a succession.

Twilight has lived with Celestia like a Noble for Years. And she’s Called Celestia’s star Pupil, despite no other Pupils of hers being seen.

Hey! They even let her into a Library that is seemingly “Royalty Only”! (Starswirl wing)

And more to the point. Celestia’s role to Twilight seems to be akin to a surrogate mother.

I can see it a bit too clearly now. I feel… This was coming. And the “Executives” are merely supporting it.

-Or I’m wrong and Twilight’s weirdly Over-privileged and Bizare closeness with Celestia is just some kind of weird hot for teacher thing. Whatever seems like a more palatable suggestion for you.

I prefer the idea that the writers were intelligent enough to have planned this.

Nov 01, 2012 at 12:16AM EDT
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RandomMan wrote:

It’s great and all you are posting here Popper, but a post solely to remind us you are still alive is kinda pointless. I also don’t see how Disney buying Lucasfilm is related to this thread, so it’s off topic as well. If you want to know what we are discussing, just read some previous posts. Having experience, you know how quickly subjects can change.

Let me be clear that I could choose any post to point out this issue, I just chose yours, so this is not an attack against you. My apologies if it looked that way.


@Twilicorn

I’ll go with my usual spoiler stuff and will just wait and see for now.

I never really got though what the deal was against more alicorns. I understand fan alicorns, as those are major Mary Sues, but canon not so much. Just trust Hasbro in this, the previous two new alicorns (Candence and Crysalis) worrded out great as well.

Technically if you’re counting a changeling (Chrysalys) Then the rest of the changelings count as well.

What are there? 300?

Quick! Someone depict the changelings as Spartans! That way their Alicorny-ness won’t be degraded by being part of the Rank and File!

A.K.A. Canon Fodder.

Nov 01, 2012 at 12:22AM EDT
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@ZeroBlue4 my head canon was that the library guard let her in because her brother was captain of the guard (of course, we really didn’t know that at the time).
As for Celestia’s relation with Twilight, it is still a kids show. Many characters show strong relationships with one another that may be seen as semi-creepy IRL. It is difficult to know if there is anything really significance to this. As for her being her star pupil two things. First Celestia has been around for a very long time, and so others may have long since graduated/ passed away. Second, the whole star pupil thing could just refer to Twilight having a star for her mark :P

Also @RandomMan, I never really felt that changelings were really a “true” kind on pony. Plus, the regular un-changed ones all had wings and horns, so I don’t think we can really say Chrysalis is really an Alicorn. But that’s just my opinion.

Last edited Nov 01, 2012 at 12:41AM EDT
Nov 01, 2012 at 12:33AM EDT
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Hmm, maybe the princesses are training Twilight to become an alicorn because they might be dying of old age. If the series ends with Twilight becoming an alicorn, then we need some villain that is more powerful than any other villain, just like a Voldermort type villain.

Nov 01, 2012 at 12:35AM EDT
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@RandomMan

By the way, I don’t have a problem with alicorns at all. If they want to itroduce more of them in the future, great, bring it on. But turning an existing character into one would be crazy.

Let me put this into different terms here; what if they suddenly decided to make Rarity an earth pony? Or turn Rainbow Dash into a unicorn? Not only would it be incredibly odd, it would fundamentally alter their behavior in the show, virtually everything we’ve come to expect from them.

Celestia can’t just “train” Twilight to become an alicorn, any more than you can train to become a moose.

As for Celestia’s close relationship with Twilight, when did that become creepy? Even if I saw their exact dynamic in real life, I would just think they were a very close teacher and student, where the student just happens to be the teacher’s biggest fan as well as closest friend. There’s absolutely nothing weird about that at all, and I don’t think there’s much reason to believe the idea is for Twilight to someday replace her or anything like that.

Last edited Nov 01, 2012 at 03:45AM EDT
Nov 01, 2012 at 03:44AM EDT
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Millennial Dan wrote:

@RandomMan

By the way, I don’t have a problem with alicorns at all. If they want to itroduce more of them in the future, great, bring it on. But turning an existing character into one would be crazy.

Let me put this into different terms here; what if they suddenly decided to make Rarity an earth pony? Or turn Rainbow Dash into a unicorn? Not only would it be incredibly odd, it would fundamentally alter their behavior in the show, virtually everything we’ve come to expect from them.

Celestia can’t just “train” Twilight to become an alicorn, any more than you can train to become a moose.

As for Celestia’s close relationship with Twilight, when did that become creepy? Even if I saw their exact dynamic in real life, I would just think they were a very close teacher and student, where the student just happens to be the teacher’s biggest fan as well as closest friend. There’s absolutely nothing weird about that at all, and I don’t think there’s much reason to believe the idea is for Twilight to someday replace her or anything like that.

The reason I would not have a problem with Twilight as an Alicorn is probably because I’m used to thinking in terms of evolutionary Levels (Pokemon, Digimon, Etc)

…Probably too much so

However, now that you phrase it with the ideas of personalities in mind… I guess it would be… Sad.

However, I do think you misunderstand what is meant by “Alicorn Training”.

-Theoretically, if A pony gifted with a large enough strength of one of the three kinds of pony magic (Earth, Arcane, Weather/Seasonal); reaches a certain threshold of all three kinds of Pony Magic; through a currently unknown method, but presumably through the elements, a pony can reach Alicorn Level: Which has been espoused by the creators as having all three kinds of magic.

There is no Doubt that Twilight is Strong enough to act as the Catalyst, but nessacarily, there is one more factor.

…Control.

There are three or four good reasons she would need to learn control.

-To maintain the containment of her magic, so the shift to Alicorn can complete.
-To keep her very pressence while an Alicorn from being a danger to others.
-To not be consumed by her own magic. And being a danger to herself.
-To be able to utilize the advanced abilities available to Alicorns.

And… Now I going to get the Possibility of personality changes out of my head.

Last edited Nov 01, 2012 at 04:29AM EDT
Nov 01, 2012 at 04:27AM EDT
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@Twilight being a Alicorn

They could pull it of temporarily for a single episode, but a permanent change wouldn’t work out. First of all the show has a negative continuity, for instance RD’s pet tank can’t be seen again, as far as I know. Usually episodes start at zero and end at zero. Sometimes even friendship lessons have to be repeated: Lesson Zero, Swarm of the century and the Season 2 finale.
And it would be counterproductive for any following stories. It would change a lot of things dramtically and it would work against the faustian character bible. Hm I still hope that they follow those keynotes…

@ZeroBlue4
I really don’t want to sound mean, but I have quite a hard time reading your comments. You are capitalizing a lot of words randomly, sometimes words are missing and the line of thought is kinda blurry. I have started to skip your comments, but I think it is a better idea to address the problem. Your ideas aren’t bad, even though quite far fatched, but please could you proofread your comments and write them a bit more coherently?

@Disney, Hasbro and Star Wars
Attention, earworm alert!

Nov 01, 2012 at 08:14AM EDT
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@ Twilight as an alicorn?

Um, nope. Could it happen for a single episode? Sure, that could actually lead to some funny stuff happening. But a permanent change? I think that would change her as a character too much. Twilight’s continuing quest to improve her magical abilities and better herself is what makes her who she is. If she were to become an alicorn… well, I don’t think she could “improve” much from there, now could she? She would be like a completely different character, and I don’t think that would bode too well. All her time would be spent learning about her newfound powers, and really, she would just stand out a bit too much among her regular pony friends.

It would be like if the Cutie Mark Crusaders actually got their cutie marks. Where would they go from there? What would they do? Again, they’d be completely different characters than they were.

Am I against the characters ever changing? Not exactly. If they learn to grow and improve as characters I’m perfectly fine with it, and it keeps the story interesting. However, when you change the fundamentals of who a character is… that’s where I find problems.

Nov 01, 2012 at 10:07AM EDT
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Whitishcollar wrote:

@Twilight being a Alicorn

They could pull it of temporarily for a single episode, but a permanent change wouldn’t work out. First of all the show has a negative continuity, for instance RD’s pet tank can’t be seen again, as far as I know. Usually episodes start at zero and end at zero. Sometimes even friendship lessons have to be repeated: Lesson Zero, Swarm of the century and the Season 2 finale.
And it would be counterproductive for any following stories. It would change a lot of things dramtically and it would work against the faustian character bible. Hm I still hope that they follow those keynotes…

@ZeroBlue4
I really don’t want to sound mean, but I have quite a hard time reading your comments. You are capitalizing a lot of words randomly, sometimes words are missing and the line of thought is kinda blurry. I have started to skip your comments, but I think it is a better idea to address the problem. Your ideas aren’t bad, even though quite far fatched, but please could you proofread your comments and write them a bit more coherently?

@Disney, Hasbro and Star Wars
Attention, earworm alert!

I’m sorry if the text quirks are a slight problem. I’ll postpone them where possible, but its taking a lot of mental effort.

As for my line of thought, it is probably incoherent because my mind doesn’t work in a linear fashion most of the time. I’ll try to be more coherent, but its an uphill battle.

I’ll try and illustrate the difficulty I’m having:

Imagine one of those tables DJs use. My mind is similar to that, having two lines of thought going at any one time. So I don’t think it is possible for me to maintain a completely “one track” mind for any length of time. The best I can hope for is for the two to synch up for the same purpose, producing the mental equivalent of a remix.

Urgh… this is taking too long to type… you know what, just assume that if my thought process were music it would sound like this

Or virtually any remix on the planet

(Lousy english language, having no stress indicator.)

Last edited Nov 01, 2012 at 10:30AM EDT
Nov 01, 2012 at 10:20AM EDT
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Lunar Protege wrote:

Or… Celestia was preparing Twilight for the role of an Alicorn the Whole Time.

I get the feeling that’s where this is going, and the rest of the series isn’t in conflict with this.

I’ll try not to give out a spoiler here, but, what exactly did you think Twilight’s “Advanced Training” was going to be?

Twilight… Is Celestia’s Retainer. Her “Heir”. Even if it’s not a succession.

Twilight has lived with Celestia like a Noble for Years. And she’s Called Celestia’s star Pupil, despite no other Pupils of hers being seen.

Hey! They even let her into a Library that is seemingly “Royalty Only”! (Starswirl wing)

And more to the point. Celestia’s role to Twilight seems to be akin to a surrogate mother.

I can see it a bit too clearly now. I feel… This was coming. And the “Executives” are merely supporting it.

-Or I’m wrong and Twilight’s weirdly Over-privileged and Bizare closeness with Celestia is just some kind of weird hot for teacher thing. Whatever seems like a more palatable suggestion for you.

I prefer the idea that the writers were intelligent enough to have planned this.


I never thought of that that way…

Nov 01, 2012 at 10:47AM EDT
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So if Celestia has been training Twilight as an heir for all this time, then that supports my theory that Celestia is dying of old age.

Nov 01, 2012 at 12:23PM EDT
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Guys, I’m communicating to you from the future! Remember when I said I was going to freeze myself until season 3 came out?

Well, it worked! My friends didn’t want to help freeze myself, so I had to get help somewhere else. I found someone who would help me, but there was one problem…

…THEY NEVER UNFROZE ME!!!

So I had been sleeping for thousands of years until someone found my body. When I woke, I was shocked to see what the future had become.

At first I thought “This is pretty cool. I could get used to this.” But I am no longer safe here. I need to find a way to get back to the past. Do any of you guys know anything about time travel? Any information will do.

Wait, I think I hear them coming. I have to leave.

Nov 01, 2012 at 10:45PM EDT
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Now for something completely different. The comic about the Sbemail 150 Easter egg idea I posted a while back I decided to make with vectors. Never worked with them before, so tell me what I did wrong.
See more on Know Your Meme

Last edited Nov 01, 2012 at 10:46PM EDT
Nov 01, 2012 at 10:45PM EDT
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chowzburgerz wrote:

So if Celestia has been training Twilight as an heir for all this time, then that supports my theory that Celestia is dying of old age.

Plausible, but I’ve got a few ideas I want to toss around before we address that directly.

First Idea: Regardless of whether Celestia is immortal or not, they do seem to be able to be injured. Whether this means they can die or not, is uncertain; but they definitely can be taken out of fighting fitness. So naturally, it makes sense that if Celestia dies or is critically wounded defending the kingdom that she a have a “contingency plan”; and Twilight being her heir, and Celestia preparing her to become an Alicorn may be part of that.

Second Idea: I get the feeling that even Celestia and Luna aren’t aware of how long an Alicorn lives for. For all we know, they “think” they could die of old age any time; but don’t know when. Whether they really are immortal is another question entirely. Either way, this is still enough for Celestia to pick out an heir.

Third Idea: Alicorns, from what is implied, seem to be destined to watch over a certain area, as well as watch over a certain aspect of the world; similar to how real life nobles and kings used to divide up lands amongst those they trusted, so as to better rule over larger sections. We can assume Equestria works similarly. Perhaps as part of some grand plan to protect the world from… something… Anyways, Celestia choosing Twilight as an heir, and finding a way to confer to her the powers of an Alicorn, may be part of that “dividing up”; which could be done for either strategic reasons for some war against evil, or so that the burden of watching over an entire kingdom won’t get too heavy for Luna and Celestia alone when the kingdom gets too big through population/border size increases.

Those bits I crossed out in that last section are the bits we don’t have evidence of yet, but sound plausible.

I hope that wasn’t too boring to read. (Or hard to read, as some would point out.)

Last edited Nov 02, 2012 at 03:17AM EDT
Nov 02, 2012 at 03:14AM EDT
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@Stargazer

Or, it means that Equestria truly is a land where ponies have evolved from humans, and that is just an old figure of speech left over from human times. Like that tire buried underground in “Hearts and Hooves Day.”

Or when Falco in Star Fox 64 says “Hey Einstein, I’m on your side!” How would he know who Einstein is…?

Alternatively, it could just mean that the show is written by human writers. But that’s no fun…

Nov 02, 2012 at 09:55AM EDT
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@Disturbedbrony

I know just the guy.


@Stargazer

Human Pony Trafficking.

Nov 02, 2012 at 10:28AM EDT
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Commodore 64 wrote:

@Stargazer

Or, it means that Equestria truly is a land where ponies have evolved from humans, and that is just an old figure of speech left over from human times. Like that tire buried underground in “Hearts and Hooves Day.”

Or when Falco in Star Fox 64 says “Hey Einstein, I’m on your side!” How would he know who Einstein is…?

Alternatively, it could just mean that the show is written by human writers. But that’s no fun…

Or, it could be that dimension hopping humans visited for a short period, messed up development of their language, and either left, or couldn’t stay there in human form and became ponies or some other creature.

If one notices that so far, Lyra and Rarity both have human mannerisms that in fanon and canon respectively get called out as not being behaviors native to Equestria. I’d think it’s reasonable to assume that reincarnated humans exist in Equestria; for reasons unknown.

However, this theory is not likely to be canon, as its too far out from the show’s premise. But in context of accepted fanon, it works. Similar to how Lyra and Bon Bon works, and even the show creators hint that they ship it, going to the point of putting Easter eggs in the show to imply it, but its not going to be canonized due to censors or whatever.

But, whatever floats your boat.

Nov 02, 2012 at 10:41AM EDT
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I’ve said this before around here, but yeah, I kind of like the idea that humans are an ancient race no longer seen in the world of Equestria. It would be a convenient way to explain countless oddities in the show, such as the design of many peculiar objects (Pinkie’s foam hand, anyone?), and certain practices that are a bit awkward for them, like keeping livestock.

Speaking of which, here’s what we know about horse trafficking; we saw in The Best Night Ever that horses are definitely not ponies. We’ve also seen that other races, such as cows and sheep, are not completely equal to ponies in society, soooooo……. I mean seriously, the very name of mulekind is used as an insult more than once! And then there’s the fact that even when they’re not talking exclusively about ponies, they’ll still use the terms “everypony” or “anypony”. I dunno guys, I think maybe ponies are somewhat accustomed to their natural advantages over those other species. Heck, from what we saw in Hearth’s Warming Eve, racism was even a thing among ponies themselves, so imagine how bad it was for non-ponies back then!

Nov 02, 2012 at 11:55AM EDT
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I think it’s just that they live in a fairly feudalistic society. A bit of proto-capitalism here and there sure, but overall there’s a strict social hierarchy that is adhered to. Actually, I’m surprised we haven’t seen more titled lords/ladies. I mean, Prince Blueblood was apparently supposed to be some sort of Duke originally, but other than that there’s nothing.

Now that I think about it, the fact that they keep livestock is kind of cruel… I mean, what do they use pigs for? At least the sheep give wool, but pigs? Hm, maybe that’s just another legacy of the dimension-hopping feudalistic time traveling humans who distorted the natural development of ponykind so much. This topic of conversation is really getting weird…

Nov 02, 2012 at 01:33PM EDT
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In the future, all humans became extinct long ago and ponies became the dominate species. I’m not exactly sure how that happened, but that’s what I’ve been told.

@RandomMan

Of course! Why didn’t I think of that sooner? I’ll be back soon.

Nov 02, 2012 at 02:07PM EDT
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@Commodore 64, I remember something form word of god about pigs being used to find truffles, chickens for eggs (for cooking). The live stock issue is kinda weird itself if they are shown as sentient. The chickens seem to be mostly like regular ones (and I don’t think we have any indication the pigs are much more than those IRL), but cows and sheep have been shown to talk.

Nov 02, 2012 at 02:28PM EDT
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@StarGazer
It’s pretty messed up, but the rich can get away with anything!

Nov 02, 2012 at 04:05PM EDT
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@Star Gazer

“You shouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth” Could be a variety of things. It could be what it’s intended lesson is: some things are not what they seem. Just a punny reference to the equine nature of the characters.

In depth, it would probably be an in-universe term to rationalize why you shouldn’t trust someone just because they seem nice. Yet again, that would mean Twilight Sparkle is the most gullible pony out there, after the opening of the series (well, she is kind of gullible. She still hasn’t figured out with all those telescopes that her universe is actually heliocentric and Celestia doesn’t do s### ).

It could even be a joke referring to examining a gift equine figure carefully, like Gift Horse #1:

Ask the Trojans why you shouldn’t take suspicious gifts.

Last edited Nov 02, 2012 at 04:52PM EDT
Nov 02, 2012 at 04:52PM EDT
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I don’t think anyone read my last entry, so I’ll make it shorter this time:
Horses. Aren’t. Ponies. In. Equestria.
If they can own sheep, then why not horses too?

@Popper

You still think that ponies don’t control their local celestial bodies, even with all the evidence to the contrary? Honestly, if that were the case, the pilot episodes would be completely pointless.

Last edited Nov 02, 2012 at 05:04PM EDT
Nov 02, 2012 at 05:04PM EDT
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@Millennial Dan

I am fully aware of the implausibility of the series, and yet, I do for the hell of it wonder how their universe is.

To be honest, there’s no scientifically possible way their world could support life of that kind without the heliocentric model.

The Earth is able to have life unsupported due to it’s prime location in the universe, which was ideal for life to grow and evolve. Which would mean, their universe needs to have similar (if not the same properties) as ours.

Twilight’s other astronomical observations also suggest that their universe has to follow the heliocentric model. Otherwise, she wouldn’t be able to accurately make those calculations. Therefore: it’s a heliocentric universe

“It’s About Time” also has the sun seemingly raising itself. Celestia’s not doing it because she strolls in the library where Twilight is just a few seconds later.

And we have it: their universe has to be heliocentric for it to logically and scientifically exist.

One theory I did find was that some point in Equestria’s history, someone messed up the natural rotation. Celestia and Luna are now bound to rotate the planet and have it revolve around the sun, and that’s why they’re immortal.

Nov 02, 2012 at 05:45PM EDT
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Millennial Dan, ah you’re talking about what TV tropes calls “Furry Confusion” right? Horses aren’t ponies, and regular horses are non-sentient right? There was the bit where twilight turned the mice into horses (and I assume didn’t raise their intelligence), I don’t think they will really show “non-pony” horses, at least not ones that are as intelligent as regular horses.

As for Celestia’s control of celestial bodies: Discord was shown to make it change from night to day and back incredibly fast, and may have done so in the past. This would likely send the planet out of orbit, either further from the sun, or towards it. Certain bits of background evidence shows that the planet is round, and that it is orbiting a much larger star. My opinion: Before Discord, the planet and its moon functioned relatively normally. Discord throws everything out of whack and Celestia and Luna make things normal. From the planetside perspective, Celestia is controlling the the sun, but in reality she controls the planet, fixing its rotation and orbit relative to the sun. This I think allows for a heliocentric planetary arrangement while still having Celestia being important and (at least from a planetary perceptive) controlling the sun
TL:DR- Her “controlling” the sun may just be perspective.
Edit: PopperFett the Mandalorian Brony beat me to it.

Last edited Nov 02, 2012 at 05:53PM EDT
Nov 02, 2012 at 05:51PM EDT
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@Popper:

Technically speaking, with the way she observed the Horsehead Nebula, Equestria is/is on a planet that is in the exact position as the Earth. As for your declaration that Celestia couldn’t have raised the sun because she strolled by a second ago… How does that prove anything? We don’t know how long it takes her. Wait, yeah, we saw that one Summer Sun Festival when Twilight was a filly.

It took her, like, seven goddamn seconds to raise it.

It might be that case that they say ‘Raise the sun’ to refer to turning the planet, which would make it more plausible if Equestria/Equestria’s planet suffered some weird rotational problem.

As it stands, we don’t have enough evidence to say Luna or Celestia are total BS. Science doesn’t mean shit because Pinkie Pie and magic, so don’t try that.

Nov 02, 2012 at 07:28PM EDT
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@Sun, moon, and other stuff.

Some have mentioned that a so called “heliocentric” model is necessary for Equestria. But I have reason to assume that the sun going round their planet through magical intervention is still plausible.

First is looking at how their legends note that the moon needs to make way for the sun. That makes as least an assumption of both sun and moon being a similar size and distance from the planet as the moon. Which raises the possibility that their sun is actually smaller than their planet, and maybe even has less mass.

Second, so called “Goldilocks” zones tend to vary from star to star. So Equestria might actually be able to survive being that close to their sun.

Third, there’s a distinct possibility that Celestia also restrains the heat of the sun, so that it doesn’t burn anything.

Fourth, if we want to get really speculative, what if that’s not a “true” sun, but rather an imitation or imperfect duplicate created a long time ago using the same magic and conditions present in suns to ignite it. Which raises the possibility that a long time ago, a catastrophe happened to their old sun (my bet, Discord ate it), and the ponies had to replace it with a controllable magic replica.

There’s probably more, but not now, this is already long.

Nov 02, 2012 at 08:16PM EDT
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@Heliocentric model

You’re all making the grave mistake of assuming the universe Equestria exists in follows the same rulesets as ours does. Which it almost assuredly does not.

PopperFett the Mandalorian Brony wrote:

…there’s no scientifically possible way…

Need I remind you that we’re dealing with a world filled with miraculous magic and supernatural beings? I doubt “scientific” really applies here for the most part.

The Earth is able to have life unsupported due to it’s prime location in the universe, which was ideal for life to grow and evolve. Which would mean, their universe needs to have similar (if not the same properties) as ours.

Y’know, just because good ol’ Terra is the only planet known to support life, it isn’t impossible that another setup could as well. We just haven’t got any examples of such, due to the fact that we haven’t even fully explored our home system yet, which is but an insignificant speck in the grand scheme of things. And even if it were an impossibility in this dimension, Equestria still isn’t subject to the same rules.

Otherwise, she wouldn’t be able to accurately make those calculations.

Unless, of course, the fundamental laws of physics work differently, not to mention the possibility of a different mathematical framework.

Solaire the Element of Jolly Cooperation wrote:

Technically speaking, with the way she observed the Horsehead Nebula, Equestria is/is on a planet that is in the exact position as the Earth.

Unless, of course, the Horsehead Nebula in question is an entirely different horsehead-shaped nebula altogether. Different universe, remember?

It took her, like, seven goddamn seconds to raise it.

You do realize she was putting on a show for the crowd, right? For all we know, she’s been doing it for so long now that she ordinarily does it more on reflex than anything.

Nov 02, 2012 at 08:47PM EDT
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ZeroBlue4, about “both sun and moon being a similar size”: It could be the case that the moon is just much closer to the planet than the sun, and can completely eclipse it if it was between it and the planet (like a solar eclipse IRL). The moon may be a different size/ proximity to the planet than our own, which may lead to this being more of a problem than on Earth. Plus, Luna is supposedly able to control it as well. As for a smaller “false sun”, not opposed to the idea, but I feel that we need some more direct evidence for it when there are other ideas that are more straightforward

Edit: @Brownmane the Knight, Generally, unless there is significant evidence to the contrary, I think it is safe to assume certain things are like Earth. I think I remember seeing something that looked like a heliocentric solar system model in one of the episodes (I think it was in “Its about Time”). However, it was all gold/ brass so there is no way to know for certain that center was in fact the sun.

Last edited Nov 02, 2012 at 09:21PM EDT
Nov 02, 2012 at 09:07PM EDT
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@ The Heliocentric Model

There’s sufficient evidence in the series to suggest the heliocentric model. I do like to joke around with Celestia not doing anything, but I do like the theory on the sisters’ control of the orbit and rotation.

As for Discord’s switch of day and night, I have a theory:

I take a sphere. I draw two circles on it: a green one, and a red one. I put them on opposite sides of the sphere. I then darken the room and shine a lamp on the sphere, which I hold in my hand (thereby controlling it). I’ll start with the green side facing toward the light.

Then, suddenly, I move my hand, and now the red side is facing the light. The green side is in the darkness.

Which side is experiencing night now? And when I move my hand again so green is back to facing the light once more, which side experiences day?

Such is Discord’s trick. He rotates the planet so that it faces away from the sun (thereby inducing nighttime). He then spins it back, turning it back to day. He can do this all he likes, changing the time of day.

The Heliocentric Model is the only logical explanation here. I know this seems a bit deep, but it’s fun as hell to prove these things.


Another thing I’ve thought of is this:

Meet Louis XIV, King of France. Known as the “Sun King”, due to a myth conjured up by him that he was the shining center for all of France to follow in a new golden age. Pretty full of himself, yet somewhat down to earth as well.

For one, he didn’t believe in his own myth. His title and myth were made simply to help rally the people of France together to head into a new age of prosperity. He also never truly regarded himself as a deity, as that would be contradictory to his Catholic faith. However, should he have declared himself a god, it is said he would not lack followers.

Celestia’s rule can be in essence the same thing. Whether she really does anything or not, she is still a shining beacon for Equestria to follow and rally behind, and in essence, she is the “Sun Princess of Equestria.” An important figure responsible for ushering her subjects into an age of prosperity.

Last edited Nov 02, 2012 at 11:53PM EDT
Nov 02, 2012 at 11:41PM EDT
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I don’t know about it being all that deep, it’s pretty simple really.

I found something on reddit about this. It’s is probably the most concise explanation I’ve seen so far about the subject of Sun and Moon, not to mention the size of Equestria as an added bonus:

It could still be that they just have a mini sun or whatever, but the explanation in the slideshow presentation there works for me just fine.

Last edited Nov 03, 2012 at 12:13AM EDT
Nov 03, 2012 at 12:08AM EDT
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@ The Heliocentric Model

The problem with this is that it is expressly “Not canon”.

And I doubt the show’s creators are going to say that “yeah, Celestia lied” or “we really meant she turns the earth”.

What exactly is the evidence for a heliocentric model here again anyways? The fact that they would be in earth’s position to see some “horse-head nebula”? No, that just means they’d be within the relative position of anywhere in our “solar-system”, compared to their world.

But more importantly, Celestia’s Talent is shown on her Cutie Mark to be the sun. Quite literally, she is the sun goddess. A verifiable Apollo for their world.

Would a pony who “turned the earth” get the sun as a mark?

Would a pony that “moved a giant rock in a circle” get the sun as a mark?

Would a pony that did nothing get the sun as a mark?

…I doubt it…

And more importantly, one of the major problems with the heliocentric “model” in this case, is that there are no “natural” seasons.

It’s mentioned in winter wrap up that seasons change in Equestria entirely through either magic or through a pegasus team; with earth ponies helping with some of the more mundane jobs.

If there were a heliocentric system in place, the chances of that being necessary are so incredibly small, as it would mean that the planet’s axis would have to be perfectly perpendicular with the line between them and the sun.

In fact, there isn’t a natural weather system to speak of. It’s all done either manually by pegasus, and natural precipitation seems to have been forgotten about. Note: hurricane Fluttershy, they get all their water using pegasus teams. Again.

And its often stated that the one place where things work entirely on their own for weather or whatever, is the ever-free forest; which is considered a place of weird significance, as if some “other” reality’s wild magic, such as a D&D world, worked on it instead of their own world’s magic. Counteracting some parts to be more natural for us, and making others even more mythical.

And don’t even get me started on how illogical it is for them to be able to grow both cherries and apples in the middle of a desert if we were talking a heliocentric model.

Equestrian ecology works nothing like ours… Literally… So the sun being moved around like some big flashlight isn’t that far fetched when the entire planet seems to have no natural rhythms that would indicate having the stability of a natural planet for us. To the point that on its own, the planet would devolve into a state of ontological stasis.

And instead of natural forces being able to be applied to the planet, the ponies seem to be living magical manifestations of what “should” be natural, placed into a living form. Pegasus for weather, Earth ponies for plants and animals, and possibly rocks. And Unicorns for the various metaphysical elements such as time.

In fact… every single aspect of the world… seems to run off of one thing…

MAGIC!

Edit: I don’t want to say that Equestria Doesn’t spin, it might, and a few possibilities show the answer “Probably” as I went back and checked. But really, that just means the planet spins. And its quite possible that both sun and moon would be “geostationary natural satellites” that follow the same rotation as their planet, if it weren’t for outside intervention: A.k.a Luna and Celestia.

Last edited Nov 03, 2012 at 01:03AM EDT
Nov 03, 2012 at 12:52AM EDT
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Oh, shit, we hadn’t even thought about the concept of Winter Wrap-Up. That throws a lot about the heliocentric model out of whack. The only way that artificially changed seasons make sense, and even then, I’d still be very skeptical in any sort of physical model, is if it had an exact circular orbit at the perfect distance, which is a near-impossible thing to do – being in a habitable zone during a whole orbit is already remarkable enough, as for a circular orbit – well, I don’t even know if one’s been discovered at any distance from a star. Thanks for the new idea, Zeroblue!

Last edited Nov 03, 2012 at 01:01AM EDT
Nov 03, 2012 at 01:01AM EDT
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@Brownmane:

So, you’re kinda agreeing with me. I implied that Equestria could not exist on the same plane of existence as Earth, due to magic and stuff like that.

As for Celestia raising it, yeah, we’re on the same page, there.

@Popper:

Nightmare Moon and Discord both threw the cycle of day and night completely out of whack, so there is evidence supporting that everything we know about astronomy is at least partially moot. Which brings me to the slideshow…

@Dan:

It’s always slightly possible the poles are in place to allow the observation of the globe. That’s an easy answer, though. This supports the heliocentric model in that Equestria’s planet most likely rotates, but that rotation could be produced by the princesses. Or, in the left-field theory presented above, it could be a vestigial deal from when the planet was heliocentric.

Constellations does not say much to support any views. A stationary planet with no rotation could still see stars during the night and record them.

A meteor shower and debris doesn’t really support much other than the meteors following predictable path (if it was predicted) and debris being attracted to the gravity of the planet.

The rest is kinda unrelated, but still interesting.

It’s also midnight and I had class today, so I’m probably wrong somewhere. IDGAF

Nov 03, 2012 at 01:05AM EDT
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Explosive Lasers AKA Solaire AKA Sexiest wrote:

@Brownmane:

So, you’re kinda agreeing with me. I implied that Equestria could not exist on the same plane of existence as Earth, due to magic and stuff like that.

As for Celestia raising it, yeah, we’re on the same page, there.

@Popper:

Nightmare Moon and Discord both threw the cycle of day and night completely out of whack, so there is evidence supporting that everything we know about astronomy is at least partially moot. Which brings me to the slideshow…

@Dan:

It’s always slightly possible the poles are in place to allow the observation of the globe. That’s an easy answer, though. This supports the heliocentric model in that Equestria’s planet most likely rotates, but that rotation could be produced by the princesses. Or, in the left-field theory presented above, it could be a vestigial deal from when the planet was heliocentric.

Constellations does not say much to support any views. A stationary planet with no rotation could still see stars during the night and record them.

A meteor shower and debris doesn’t really support much other than the meteors following predictable path (if it was predicted) and debris being attracted to the gravity of the planet.

The rest is kinda unrelated, but still interesting.

It’s also midnight and I had class today, so I’m probably wrong somewhere. IDGAF

What’s even more confusing, is that there are “living” constellations in Equestria… Those big bear things. (Can’t spell it properly.)

And Twilight thought she saw movement in one of the “normal” constellations.

…And at this point, the idea that the constellations are merely sleeping in the sky for kicks, and can be summoned to Equestria Cthulhu style…

-TOO CRAZY! NOT GOING THERE!

Nov 03, 2012 at 01:14AM EDT
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@Zero
The names that you are looking for are Ursa Minor, and Ursa Major.

@PopperFett
King Louis would have never have declared himself a deity, one due to the connections to the Catholic Church. The second reason is because he knew that he was a man but was given the right of God to rule France, essentially representing God “Has God forgotten all I have done for Him” -Lois XIV. He never did lead his people to believe that he was a god, like all kings they were lead to believe that he was chosen by god to rule them through the divine right to lead them. One of the reasons why he is known as the Sun King is because he adopted the Sun as his personal symbol. There are various reasons why Louis continued to be referred to as the Sun King, varying from his egotistical need to be absolute ruler of the state, like the Sun, all revolved around him as he maintained control of all sectors of the state. That the Sun is tied to Apollo, the God of Arts and Peace, Louis was famous for the art which his reign produced, the Palace of Versailles, the peace, in his early years of his reign, and stability that he brought to France. Finally, he was the best king to rule France, reigning for 72 years. Stabilizing France by centralizing power, he also established France as a major European power. Without the sun we would die, without King Louis, France might not have immerged as a power which we know as today which in the following centuries shaped our world today.

Last edited Nov 03, 2012 at 02:53AM EDT
Nov 03, 2012 at 02:50AM EDT
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@ZeroBlue4 “Would a pony who “turned the earth” get the sun as a mark?”
Like I said earlier, If we go with this hypotheses that she turns the planet, to the perspective of anyone who mattered, she is moving the sun. Planet side, the sun would “move” to her wishes, and really, that would ultimately have the exact effect planet wise, controlling how the sun rises , moves through, and sets in the sky.

Also, the odd weather patterns I don’t think discredit the heliocentric model by default. The seasons here are caused by a tilt in the Earth’s axis. Perhaps this is not present there. Alternatively, it may be that the weather/seasons do change on their own, but it is so slow and gradual that doing thing manually is the best solution. Basically, I interpreted weather control as the pony equivalent to irrigation.

Nov 03, 2012 at 09:22AM EDT
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@Tim

I never said he did declare himself a god. The point was that his myth declared he was a shining beacon for all of France to follow.

That was a semi-pointless note about the deity. It’s interesting to know that he could have declared himself a god and be worshiped. But it isn’t very likely he would have done that, ever. As we’ve stated, he was a devout Roman Catholic and it is against our doctrine for any false god to be declared.

As we’ve established, King Louis XIV continued to be known as the “Sun King” because he was what all of the state revolved around. He was the leader that made France so successful in the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Without him, France would not have been the power it was during that time. I say Celestia and Luna are essentially the same thing: figureheads that led their subjects into a golden age. Without them, that would not have happened.


But I still don’t discredit the sisters’ involvement in the sun and moon.

@Millennial Dan

I think your slideshow pretty much summed up all I would say on the matter. I still say that they do follow the Heliocentric model, but need to have their rotation and orbit controlled.

As for the rotation getting out of whack, what I displayed in my last post with the sphere explains how that is possible. It’s also logical: Discord used it as a form of power, as he had literal control of night and day, so he had control of life and death essentially. The Princesses hold the same power too.

We can also see how it is necessary for the control of the planet’s rotation and orbit by the agricultural society in the land. Farms, such as Sweet Apple Acres, rely on the balanced cycle of day and night and the seasons for their crops to grow effectively. Without that cycle, their farms are ruined and pointless, as they cannot grow anything effectively.

Nov 03, 2012 at 09:29AM EDT
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Ever since ponies discovered magic, they wanted to control everything on Earth. They wanted to control the weather, the seasons, and when the sun and moon rise (they wanted to make it so that the moon only comes out at night). There are some things that come naturally, but it’s mostly magic in the future.

Speaking of the future, I tried asking Doctor Whooves if he could use the TARDIS to send me back in time.

He said he has no idea what I’m talking about, but I know he’s lying.

I just don’t know what to do. I can’t hide from the royal guard forever.

Nov 03, 2012 at 11:04AM EDT
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Skeletor-sm

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