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Yea I don't see anyone getting downvoted except the trolls who aren't taking this thread seriously.

In fact everyone here got an upvote. Was there a karma bomber here recently?

[edit] Didn't see this:

On the first page, a lot of the posts with positive karma have been downvoted once. I don’t think anyone slipped, because it happened quite a few times.

Sounds like a karma bomber to me, not a case where everyone is being intolerant. Honestly if that was the case, we should all be arguing right now. Calm your tits

@opspe

You guys should read this article. It’s an editorial (well, two editorials) about why religiousness in the US is declining, and I thought it was a really interesting read.

That really is an interesting read. Also the top comments to that article had some good points as well.

I noticed the number of commenters who expressed the same problem I have: Christians who did not stop being a Christian in the "aspire like Christ sense" but stopped being Christians in the "Conservative traditionalist" sense because one is now far removed from the other.

@Rinsan

God exists by many names, he isn’t a person, the big bang happened, evolution happened, ghosts exist, life on other planets exist, parallel universes exist, there’s an afterlife, the afterlife is multiple alternate universes people go to depending on their morale, etc. I like to think that not one religion has the true idea of God, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. I when I mean “he,” I mean… something. I like to think of God as a web that holds all order. When a lining in the web is torn, something bad happens.

Actually I've had similar idea's so if you are crazy, then you are not the only one. I.E: It's possible that while no religion has the "right god", all of them could be hinting at the same correct entity. Different cultures just interpret the entity differently. That's the fun thing about religion; anyone's guess is as good as anyone's.

Also most Chistians look at the Big Bang theory and Evolution that way too: If that's how things happened according to the evidence then that's probably the way God did it. We don't need to look at Abrahams 4000 year old legend as a literal transcription of events

@Random

Even that's a misconception. Pretty much all of the Advice God macro's are just that: playing on the usual stereotypes of the Bible held by people who obviously don't read it.

But the way I see it, that's what the Advice God macro was intended to do: make jokes about how the Bible is incorrectly interpreted by both sides rather than just mock the bible itself.

It's still a hilarious macro.

No.
Although I was baptized Catholic, I slowly lost faith in the religion and had began to think more about what's actually there. As Science progresses and discovers more new things in the universe, the more people will lose faith in religion and start to become Atheist, or just don't have a religion at all. I'm not saying it's wrong to have a religion, I'm just telling the truth. I can't classify myself as a "true Atheist", but just as a person without a religion, but with a path to follow.
Please, if this offends anyone, then I am sorry.

Oh please not this Candlejack shit aga

I don't believe in any deity, never have.

I can't give an exact way (I don't remember it all), but I can say I came to this conclusion towards the end of a world religions class I took back in high school. While studying all of these religions, I began seeing patterns across all of them… not based off the mythologies, but the ideas presented within each of their scriptures and philosophies.

But here is the short version:
If I remember correctly, the idea of heaven at the root mainly has to do with ones connection to god, and being in heaven is return to God. Now then, if this is the case, substitute god out for a figurative River of Spirits (the mist that jumps up from it is a human life, death is the act of re-joining the river), you got the Hindu/Budda afterlife idea. What if God was this spirit river, and we where all just parts of him? Somehow, this makes sense to me. From there, I built up the rest of my theory.

Edit:
Also, there was probably a few misconceptions I made about the various religions I was taught. My idea on God was born from these misconceptions, so I will ignore any sort of reasoning against how I arrived at my conclusion. I am happy believing this, I don't have to discriminate by believing in this, and I feel that is all that matters.

@Natsuru:

Your beliefs sound slightly like Shinto. I shall elucidate:

The Japanese believe that everything on earth, living or otherwise, has a life force, or kami, that should be respected. Kami are attributed to all supernatural occurrences, and they generally include all Gods, demons, and angels as manifestations of kami which human beings cannot perceive. The kami does not perish with the death of a thing, but rather returns to nature to be reused.

Certain kami can become charged with negative energy in relation to the events of their lives, becoming impure and restless. There is no inherent stigma against impure actions in the mortal realm, and maintaining a pure lifestyle is mostly up to the individual's own peace of mind.

From what I understand, Shinto as an organized religion is not a huge deal in Japan, and in fact they tend to incorporate "invading" faiths into their own. The Christian God, Allah, Hindu Gods, etc. are all considered kami. Many Buddhist traditions and ideas, especially those regarding death and reincarnation, have been absorbed over the years. People generally do not list themselves as Shinto or relate to each-other on the grounds of faith like monotheists usually do. Rather, they sort of see Shinto as they do the existence of the potato: it is a fact, and we appreciate it's existence, but do not make it the center of our lives.

I do believe in god, but I do not follow the religion. I found that it was too… bossy. And I really don't agree with "Believe in god or go to hell". But I also don't believe in some aspects of evolution, just because i think it is illogical that the entire damn race changed from monkey to man. But minor changes such as skin change I can accept. I think religions give people hope, and is that really something to argue about?

I'd like to know what percentage of all the atheists in the world have read the Bible.

Because to many, knowing a lot about what you're arguing about does help!

Yes and that's all you need to know.

I hate when people bring up the bible in an argument or ACTUALLY take it out to prove a point. That's like going through a bunch of episodes of Star Trek to eventually find proof that someone actually said, "Beam me up, Scotty".
Seriously, what's the accomplishment of proving if God does or does not exist? The sweet victory of crushing someone's belief? Crushing what they been taught and known all their life or you want them to be apart of the "herd"?

Speaking of religious beliefs. When I say, "God bless you" when you sneeze. I'm just being courteous. When I say Merry Christmas, it means have a wonderful holiday. Please, PLEASE, do not turn around and tell me, "I don't believe in God" or "I don't celebrate Christmas". It's not like I'm bathing you in holy water or trying to recruit you into a cult. I'm just being nice.

Seriously though, I had a guy who believed in the "elements of nature" turn around and had the nerve to freaking dissed what I believe. I said what I believe, he said what he believed, just a nice discussion, then he turns and tells me, "How can you believe in bearded guy who sits in the clouds and his zombie son? That's stupid." It's like,why would you turn around and tell me what I believe in is stupid? Was that necessary?

Even with atheists, the Crusade happen hundreds of years ago by extremist. The three Abrahamic religions were entwined in war. A war of belief. So no, if religion was gone, war will still happen because people would still have different beliefs and will fight to prove them wrong.

I'll openly say I'm a Christian, please respect that. I respect what you believe in, so do the same? Please?

Even with atheists, the Crusade happen hundreds of years ago by extremist.

People sure love bringing up the Crusades. It's like the Christian Hitler

"Jesus loves you."
"But the Crusades man, think about the Crusades!"
"That happened thousands of years ago and it was a diplomatic matter that's not relevant to our beliefs"
"CRUSADES!"

Somehow (according to some) this ancient war that happened because the Pope wanted control of Jerusalem invalidates the whole belief

The origin of Christian belief are much more ancient than the Crusaders, The fact they happened in the past does not make them irrilevant.
It's like the excuses we all make for our past mistake:
"I was a small kid!"
"I was just a kid!"
"I was just a little boy!"
"I was just a young boy!"
"I was just a youngster!"
"I was still young!"
"I was not wise as I am now!"
Cast your stone if you have never used one of these!

It should be noted that the Crusades were mostly political. As soon as a new crown appears in Europe (the Kingdom of Jerusalem) everybody wants a piece of it. For example: Richard I "the Lionheart" of England tore down Leopold of Austria's flag, which was representative of his claim to Acre, and in response Leopold immediately went home, taking his armies with him. King Philip II of France left after his request to half of Cyprus was denied. If they were at war for God, it really should not have mattered who kept the spoils. Christianity was used as an excuse to wage war for land just as democracy is used today as an excuse to wage war for oil. There is no thing too sacred for human beings to trash in the name of power and blood lust.

I believe in God. I think that we are his children, all of us, and that as such we have the potential to do incredible things. As Jedi Master Yoda says: "Luminous beings are we – not this crude matter." God wants us to be amazing. Sometimes, we disappoint Him.

…Actually, I think God is a lot like Mr. Rogers. Simply excellent in all imaginable ways.

Simply put I am a Christian. baptist by denomination.I know the lord our God is a loving and just god. I am not a mat so i wont bow to your beliefs.I will tell you when something is wrong but i do it out of compassion and love not hatered and anger

Did I start something here?
._.

Also, whether you like it or not, why worry about dying?
You just got to live life to the extreme, live it up, fulfill your dreams.
Death is nothing to worry about, because if you lived your life how you wanted to live it, then that's the way you're supposed to be. Death is not an end point. Death is just a reboot to your life.
(I don't think I worded this right.)

Lone K. the Lonely Creeper wrote:

Also, whether you like it or not, why worry about dying?

Death is my least favorite thing in the world. I am hoping that methods of immortality are invented within my lifetime. With the scale of the universe being so vast, even living to be a hundred years old is pathetic and small. I want to see more than just this world. I want to experience the rest of the universe firsthand and explore the cosmos. I want to be older than the stars that made me.

Maybe this is just my own weird opinion, but it seems so close-minded to feel content with experiencing such an insignificant part of the universe and it's timeline.

@Count Lionel
Your feelings are shared by many of the Human Race. I think we all hope for immortality. It's what forces us to look "beyond". It's why I'm a believer.

Just to quickly correct my earlier post: The crusades were hundreds of years ago, not thousands

@Hypercat

I'm not sure what you are getting at there. I never said the Crusades pre-date the religion.

The crusades occurred because the European papacy decided it should have political control over Jerusalem (because that's where Christianity started) and was outraged that the Saracens controlled it instead. Essentially the pope order the war because he wanted what somebody else had. Man was power trippin'. No tenant in Christianity supported his actions but as Pope he was able to drag religion into it whether it was moral or not.

That's not something Christians should be held accountable for. Claiming they are, is nothing short of a red herring argument.

It's like saying everyone in Mongolia right now should be blamed and scrutinized for Ghenkis Khan.

@Immortality

You should see what Cracked has to say about that

Also this

You know, that Cracked article made a very good point about immortality, and actually now immortality seems scary to me ._.

I was never afraid of death after I passed my childhood. I am completely ok with passing away after having a long and fulfilling life

It happened to anyone who didn't say "Yes" or "Yes, exactly how the bible depicts him". It was probably just some butthurt moron who doesn't get the point of this thread.
--

@Count Lionel:
Hmm… interesting. Especially considering my current interest in Japan, I did not study very far into Shinto until after I made that connection. (And my Asian Philosophy book has a total of 10 pages about it, so I can't say I am the most educated person in the world about it.)

But indeed. Now that I think about it my view is extremely similar to Shinto. But still… the fact I arrived at a similar conclusion… damn, my head is going to explode if I think about it too hard. n_n;;

What do you call someone who isn't atheist but doesn't believe in religion?

You don't label them anything.

Seriously though, I've yet to know to this day specifically.

I'm an atheist.
The bible says some things I don't agree with, most of it being marriage related.
I also don't want to be associated with a lot of the different religious groups.
I want to believe in Science, too. Science just makes for a much cooler reality, in my book. I don't feel like the two can co-exist. I could believe in a "God", but not the one in the Bible. I'd rather think of God as somebody who just set everything in motion, not somebody who keeps maintenance, if you get what I'm saying.

But those are just my views. I'm willing to keep an open mind if the human race ever does discover evidence of a God.

There really is no way to be between the two without being agnostic. You are either an atheist, or some kind of theist. However, there are two kinds of atheism. I believe you may be thinking of the implicit variation.

Implicit atheists are those whom do not have a religion simply because they do not care, do not know, or have not been introduced properly to a faith. Newborn babies, animals, and isolated tribes without theistic tendencies are all examples of implicit atheism.

Explicit atheists, on the other hand, consciously reject the existence of any gods. They know about religion and acknowledge its existence. They have discarded it, and may even scorn it.

Count Lionel, you don't HAVE to have any faith at all. I don't recall that being the definition of atheist, I just thought being an atheist just meant you didn't think god existed. Not not having a religion or faith…

I think that the belief in God and science can coexist. I mean, who is to say that God didn't create science? It would make sense to me that God would want the earth to have a structure and for everything to follow certain laws (i.e. law of gravity, etc.) Maybe God was the one to decide that organisms and creatures would evolve over time. Basically what I am saying is that I don't think he does everything with a magical wave of his hand, but he made everything follow what we call science today.

@Quantum:
Atheism is the lack of theism, ergo, the lack of belief in religious teachings.

I am not certain what you mean. Are you implying that one might have religious convictions and still remain atheist at the same time? It is hard to fathom a person following the teachings of Allah, for example, while actively denying his existence. Can you elaborate? I am a tad bit confused.

Religion complicates things for me. I'm messed up in the head so religion made me crazier when I used to be Christian. I left religion because i never "felt" His presence as everyone in church or my family. i just gave up and now believe in anything I want. I had some friends who didn't want to be with me because I didn't believe in what they did. Oh well. Sorry for the personal rant.

@Katamari

I don’t feel like the two can co-exist.

I feel I should let you know that every Christian I know works with both just fine.

When you say that, you are saying that science is a polar belief system in contrast to all other religions, or worse; that science is the "Athiest religion" and is therefore atheist property only. All that does is encourage the nasty Us-vs-Them mentality and drags science into it (And science is supposed to be neutral). It also causes shitstorms like you wouldn't imagine

It would be wise to take a step back and looks at science and religion at a basic level:

Science = A practical study undertaken to determine a basic truth about the observable universe we live in
Religion = A series of morals, lifestyle and philosophies that cater towards theories of what is beyond our observable universe

Those two things have to be forced in order to conflict by changing the role and purpose one of them serves (this happens more often than it should). When you do that, either by pretending science provides moral philosophy or that Religion explains how everything works in the world you do a huge disservice to both.

I don't like the idea that since science answers questions about our world, religion has become obsolete. Religion for many people is more about answering the question " why are we here?" not " where does thunder come from?".

There's no possible way of explanation for the question "Why are we here?".
Religion won't be able to answer the question until evidence is found, same with Science. Every time something new is discovered, more things are being taught. Sooner or later we'll find evidence of what "brought" us here, or what we were before. Earlier today, I saw an article about a person who may have discovered the secrets about Stonehenge. I'm not sure if it's real, considering the fact that I never read it due to school starting and I had to walk to school.

How much years will it take to get to the answerable center of the unanswerable question?
The world may never know…

You are still looking at it through a scientific lens. "Why are we here?" is not a question that needs evidence to prove anything. It is a philosophical question. An opinion, not a fact. It needs to be thought about, not researched. Is murder wrong? Can you scientifically prove that murder is wrong? You can not. In fact, there is nothing scientific about concluding ethical laws or following any kind of moral system. Science and religion really can not be thought of as contending, or even similar.

Except of course when it comes to stories, such as those of miracles or certain impossible events, like Atlas holding up the world, or Jesus turning one fish into two fish. I like to see such stories as being separate from religion, since they are not trying to resolve any ethical questions, but rather put said ethics into an easily understood environment.

Except of course when it comes to stories, such as those of miracles or certain impossible events, like Atlas holding up the world, or Jesus turning one fish into two fish

That's probably the only area where science can get involved. By proving if certain religious stories are historically accurate or not (EG: Were Hebrews kept as slaves in Egypt? Science is hot on that case).

But in most cases, the religious don't really need to worry about how history actually unfolded so long as their principles remains intact

This is a serious thread, I would post Serious Cat, but that's not serious enough.

I also believe in God.

No, I do not. God and satan, heaven and hell, they are archetypes. Perfect good and evil, a paradise and a dystopia. I can't believe in the typical portrayal of god because I do not believe in any form of perfection. Too many things are subjective for me to believe in it. All people have a different idea of what god stands for, and what makes a perfect paradise. Not to mention, I believe that everything has a sort of dual-sided nature, and positivity can not exist without negativity; ie, you can not achieve perfect happiness without experiencing perfect sadness. It is the negativity that makes the positive worth something. It's why they say hardship builds character. Honestly, heaven sounds boring. A perfect place where everyone is always happy? I'll take our world any day. Sure, I wish people would stop being dicks all the time, society was less complicated, etc., but I do NOT want a life without hardships. That would suck. What is there to strive for?

I suppose I may be technically be agnostic. The judeo-christian god doesn't seem plausible, though I'm open to certain spiritual ideas. Reincarnation, while not currently able to be proven, does not strike me as completely implausible. I'm not opposed to the idea of souls. Sort of how different types of waves are undetectable by ordinary senses, I believe souls might exist as an undetectable sort of force that our technology and scientific expertise has yet to uncover. Still, I'm a skeptic first and foremost, and only believe in what has been proven beyond a doubt; hence, choosing to label myself an atheist rather than agnostic.

Pfft no.

Well to elaborate further because everyone is so ballin up in here:

My idea of God is somewhat in line with Rinsankajugin's. Rather than a single entity, I think that God (Or Gods as the case could easily be) isn't in the form of a single entity, but as some sort of super-intelligent sub-real fabric or web, a permeating force of all things in existence (Intelligence could be very different from ours, being a being of extreme form and… being) .
I also believe that while it does not love us (For what reason does it have to?), there is a possible after-life in which our conscience falls into connection with it, which I think is the reason we have such a complex being, rather than just stimuli and reaction on simple biology, like other creatures. I like to think of Humanity as some sort of incredible experiment, maybe to see how the next universe (Or something beyond comprehension) would turn out.

I'm all for Science, but Science can only tell the how, not the why or who.

I'll just give my POV.

I believe the universe wasn't created by God. I believe everything was made by the big bang, which caused chain reactions over our galaxies.

However, I do believe there is a one, powerful person in the skies that controls various parts of our lives.

I used to be christian but my brain says something else.

Ask yourself. Why would you pray an imaginative character, that even didn't do anything for humanity but we?

We, humans, created anything we can with our creativity and intelligence. We are the creators, not god. God is just something for people, who are hopeless and think God can solve your problems. That's really stupid. You'll be hopeless, when you're being a stupid lazybone.

That's a rather mean way of putting it. Having a belief in something is not stupid, it does not make a person lazy, and not every person looks to God to solve their problems. Some people find strength in the belief that there is something larger than themselves out there. People do not believe in God so that they can turn to him (or her) and say "Hey God, I'm having troubles paying off my mortgage, can you make it go away?"

And nobody has taken away credibility for what humans have created either. I have never heard anyone say "God built the pyramids" or "God made the skyscrapers". Some people believe that God made the Earth, our foundation, and we have built ourselves upon that foundation. We are creators, but God is thought of as the ultimate creator.

We pray to God to build a relationship with him, we pray to him for moral guidance, we pray to him to help keep us and our loved ones safe. Some people don't even pray, but they still hold the belief that God exists and connect to him in their own way. People turn to God for strength, not for him to fix all of their problems by himself.

I know you claim to be a former Christian, and I will not look down on you for being an atheist, but I doubt that you understand what it means to have a faith in God, and why people believe in him.

If I may just add my morality to this discussion.

Personally, so long as you don't go out of your way to harm others, I'll give your actions a pass. Doesn't mean I won't still be displeased if your actions put yourself above others, but I won't try to stop you unless what you're doing actually hurts people and you know that it does.

As a result, I have a pretty low opinion of corporations. Many of them fully understand that what makes them rich also causes people to get sick and die, or worse, it costs them their livelihoods just so a CEO and a few members of a Board of Directors can make a little more money for themselves.

On the other hand, I do believe in helping others.

That will be all.

Someone once said: "Mathematics is the language with which God wrote the universe."

As bad as I am at math, this makes sense to me. Science is here to be studied, and my Christian beliefs do not hinder me at all from asking "what's out there?" in a scientific way.

I agree with Dac, that religion is to answer "Why we are here." Not "how did we get here" or "what caused us to show up here" but rather "What are we here FOR?" What is our PURPOSE? I believe that humanity has a mission here. Something we're meant to achieve.

"What are we here for?" I honestly couldn't care less.

What matters is that we're here. We take care of the planet, take care of ourselves, take care of each other, that's all that really matters.

I personally believe that I'm in control of my own destiny, that my actions are my own and of my own free will. Not chosen or guided by some cosmic force.

Maybe I'm just not the type to fall in line and let others lead me. I prefer to just be myself. Maybe that's why I reject religion and substitute free will.

@American Tanker: Exactly! Awesome post dude.

And nope, hard-line atheist. I do, however, believe in the potential of humans to do great things. It took less than 70 years to get from the first flight in Kitty Hawk, NC to the freaking moon. How ballin' is that? I guess I don't need a religion to get through my day. Some people do. So hey, love and tolerate!

Good to see this hasn't descended into a flame thread yet! Keep it classy, people ;)

Is there a way to label one's self as not atheist, agnostic or religious?

I don't believe in any religions, but unlike atheists I do believe in a "god" and I'm not undecided or agnostic because I have my beliefs. (as explained in the last page)

What exactly am I?

This is called deism. Quite a few of the American founding fathers were very likely deists, or at the very least anti-clerical Christians, including Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and George Washington.

Deists argue that through reason and observation of the natural world they can determine that there is indeed a creator of the universe. Many deists support the Clockmaker theory, which asserts that God created the universe but does not intervene with it's affairs, much like the maker of a clock allows his creation to work without his input. This typically results in the rejection of miracles, prophecies, immaculate scripture, and other core tenets of the typical organized religion.

EDIT: In retrospect, this may be what /\/oob was asking about a little while earlier on this page.

I believe Teh Brawler created the heavens and the earth. Teh Brawler is clearly an almighty god in forum moderator form, for His own purposes.

Wow i am surpised to see so many theists here. I really didn't expect that, but perhaps kym atheists are just not as vocal (or don't upvote just as much)

I am an atheist and i do not believe in god or any sort of higher creature. I also agree with Randomman: I follow logic and i do not need an imaginary creature to find strenght or to answer a question, but i also do not mind if other people need faith in god. I can accept it and don't have a problem with it.

But another question: Are you superstitious?

I am somewhat superstitious. Like I believe in jinxes and i'll knock on wood and throw salt over my shoulder when necessary. I also believe in karma (what goes around comes around)