Forums / Discussion / General

This woman goes undercover as a man for 18 months, develops depression, and concludes that the experience of being a man made her appreciate being female.

She was probably doing it wrong.

But this is interesting…

Why do you say she was doing it wrong?

Wow, she was extremely dedicated. 18months, god damn.
I know she wanted to learn something from this, but doing this for over a year is a bit excessive.

Check your female privilege, feminists.

That was more of a joke, after all on a more serious note she probably just didn't enjoy it as she is actually a female.

I…can't word this…properly. Uhh, The thing is, if she's really a woman, why should she enjoy the life of a man more than the life of a woman if she is a female? I mean, sure you could get used to it or find some upside to living as a man that makes living as a woman a bad thing but I'm thinking that that is also not a definite truth and that I'm not surprised by this outcome.

"Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have, but they don't have it better," she said. "They need our sympathy. They need our love, and maybe they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together."

Ironically, Vincent said, it took experiencing life as a man for her to appreciate being a woman. "I really like being a woman. … I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."

As something I know a bit about (i.e., suicide,) men successfully commit suicide more often than women. Women attempt it more often and report depression/exhibit depressive symptomology more often than men.

Here is a pretty concise description of some statistics on suicidality.

Outside of just wanting to kill yourself, some theorize that men die sooner than women, in part due to pressure to uphold some male, masculinized norms and roles. For most people, they expect men to be stronger physically and emotionally. During the very difficult moments of life, men are expected to suck it up. A women can be expected to cry and rely upon others for emotional support, but (often from women) are expected to not be as vulnerable.

"Vincent said the dates were rarely fun and that the pressure of "Ned" having to prove himself was grueling. She was surprised that many women had no interest in a soft, vulnerable man.

"My prejudice was that the ideal man is a woman in a man's body. And I learned, no, that's really not. There are a lot of women out there who really want a manly man, and they want his stoicism," she said."

So even though there is systematic oppression for women, it's based upon the assumption that men are superior in many ways that are highly valued in society. As such, when a man can't hold to those values, he experiences more distress as not being good enough (even though being stoic and cold isn't necessarily a bad attribute to have all of the time.)

And I think Quantum is on to something, although it's not necessarily the woman's fault here. She was raised as a woman, even if she is tomboyish. It's hard for a woman to live as a man once she's lived as a woman for her entire life. Gender is so ingrained in humans. It's not something that you can change so easily and not have mental distress to a high degree.

I imagine a man being a woman might find the same thing. Women have a lot of disadvantages that a man doesn't have, but they are different. To actually say who has it easier is too blanketed of a claim. You'd have to be more specific in regards to what you're talking about. But structurally, I'd still say that women have the tougher gender.

I would concur with her. In everyday life, men have it pretty hard. Expressing themselves would be seen as a weakness, especially regarding sexuality and emotional problems; whereas with women, they're almost expected to show their emotions and act vulnerable. It was understandable that she became depressed; she gave up her entire identity, and moved on to one that she felt was inferior to her own just for an experiment. Anyway, it was an interesting read.

TL:DR Life isn't that easy for anybody so we should probably just try to be over-all nicer.

THANK YOU

This is what I've been saying for years. The idea that men somehow have it better in today's society is complete bull. We're expected to be stoic, independent blobs of muscle, and therefore don't learn to express ourselves correctly, and are left with a severe stunt in social development. I'm so happy that we've finally got evidence from someone who was originally a skeptic source.

Seriously, I'm tearing up as I write this.

We need a gay effeminate man to do the same as a woman.

…ANN!!!!!

@Brawler

There's plenty of hard evidence to the contrary from the fact that women get paid less for the same positions or in how they're perceived when they take on masculine attributes.

They also have more narrow expectations in how they have to respond to sex. You can be a prude or a slut as a woman, and people will give you grief for both. But I've actually gotten praise for being a virgin of (mostly) my own choice, and I think we all can recognize that a man can be praised for having a lot of (straight) sexual exploits.

Not to forget to mention that most women simply aren't as strong as men. No matter what situation you're in as a woman, a man could just rear back and knock you unconscious or dead with a well-aimed backfist. You always have to have that thought in mind as a woman (well, a woman who cannot defend themselves against raw strength, that is.) Men don't have the same fear.
 
But I think your point is that men have their own problems. I think that those who are not naturally stoic or naturally "masculine" have to deal with a lot of crap that women never have to.
 
 
One thing to also remember is that anecdotal evidence (even after more than a year of experience,) is still the weakest of evidence. It can hardly be extrapolated to any switch of gender roles.

Yes, that was my point, that fourth paragraph.

I agree with you about evidence, but I have to agree with Brawler. I personally feel that women don't have gender roles worse then men's, and that both are equally repressive. The difference is that women have had the opportunity to discuss theirs while men's roles have remained stagnant.
Women do have issues in today's society that need to be addressed. For example, equal pay for equal work is something that should be argued more.
However, today I think that it's harder to be a man then to be a woman. Firstly, the education system is not geared towards styles of learning more typical in males; women are biologically advantaged in today's school system. This would explain why for every 2 men who graduate college today, 3 women will do so. Secondly, despite being payed less or perhaps because of it, there are more women in the North American workforce today then men. Yet despite all evidence showing that women have gained social mobility and are no longer solely dependent on their husbands as breadwinners, women rarely have to pay child support. That brings up another issue: the courts are prejudiced against men in divorce cases, costing fathers custody of their children and for pretty much all men alimony costs, something that women are typically exempt from.
As for the sexuality comment, there is a lot of pressure for men to be very promiscuous. Not having a partner, or not having sex, isn't something that men are typically praised for; it's something they are typically ridiculed for. It is a fact of neurology that men have a sexual impulse approximately 3 times more powerful then women have. Men want sex more then women, and are penalized more therefore when they don't receive it. Women are called sluts for being promiscuous or prudes for being abstinent, but I don't think that makes up for it.
Also, pertaining to the fear of violence part, with all due respect, that point is ludicrous. Men and women are exactly as vulnerable to attack in the case of being struck. What women are deficient in is inherent capability to inflict physical harm, i.e. women find it a lot harder to beat people up. A single punch can knock anyone out. Hell, a single punch is enough to kill if it hits the right spot, regardless of anyone's training. If we live in a society in which the threat of sudden unpredictable violence is common, and we were expected to inflict it, I'd understand your point. However, in a society which is less violent than any that precede it, with most people enjoying safety in nearly all of their interactions, the only thing women are suffering due to their biological disadvantage in strength is the capacity to murder people with their bare hands.
What I conclude from all this is that women do not have it worse then men. Men and women both have their own issues to tackle; I don't think men's are harder. I just think that men's not being addressed is problematic, and that the generalization that the entire gender is responsible for female victimization, or that women are truly suffering more than men, is hurtful and inaccurate.

I want to give so much karma to all of you guys, this is a great thread. This discussion reminds me of a poem i read on deviantART a few weeks back about how men have it just as bad as women in society, but for different reasons. This poem mainly gained a lot of well deserved praise, but if you bother to look back in the comments far enough, there's a cluster of comments made by feminazis that basically state that men do not have a right to complain because of all the shit that women are put through. I was very disgusted by these comments, because it showed that those people didn't truly want equality, they only cared about themselves.

I agree that it's foolish to argue about which gender has it worse. Personally, I am glad to be a woman because even though women still has problems in society, people will at least listen when we give a complaint (notice how a lot of the US election has focused on women's issues such as abortion and birth control?). Right now, men have almost nobody to listen to and that's what really makes me sad. In conclusion: can't we all just get along and not have expectations for the opposite gender?

Needed Me?

Also didn't Natsuru do this already?

I don't really want to spend too much time typing this out because i'm using my phone since me and my roommates are on the road trying to avoid the hurricane just in case.

Yeah, being a dude sucks, but it sucks for significantly different reasons for why it sucks to be a girl. Men are still better off than women despite the reasons why it sucks to be a dude. Most of the problems that men have stem from the idea of what a man is supposed to be. Basically, it's us dudes who make life shitty for other dudes. Us dudes don't have to worry that the way we dress being used as an indicator of our level of sexual activity, dudes in movies and television generally aren't defined by their relationship to a woman, dudes generally aren't accused of sleeping around in order to obtain positions of power, etc.

What's happened is that we've become a society that undervalues men and overvalues women. Back in the day, that was kind of necessary. When I say back in the day, I mean thousands of years ago when we were starting out. A man could easily have at LEAST ten kids in a year. Easy. A woman? Just one. But both were 100% necessary to reproduce. Therefore, woman were put on a pedestal. If you only had one woman in your tribe or whatever, you were fucked. If you had only one man, you could at least have some offspring.

That time has passed. We have upwards of 7 billion people. We don't need to coddle women anymore. And I hate the way men are demonized. Did you know that the largest demographic of perpetrators of child abuse are women? That's right. And women have never had it very hard in this world. Men were the ones who always had to fight in wars and do the dirty work.

So tell me, how is being bored at home and financially dependent on your husband considered "oppressed"? I guess that man who was out in the fields busting his ass working for fourteen hours was doing it just for fun and I'm SURE that his wife would have just LOVED to join him if she just weren't so…oppressed.

In addition, from the time that researchers began measuring happiness until the 1970s, BEFORE the feminist movement got steam, women were consistently twice as satisfied and happy with their lives than men were. Imagine that! Imagine! The oppressed class leading longer, happier, and more satisfying lives than their oppressors. When…in the FUCK…does that ever happen?

I have plenty more to say on this, but I'm not sure if anyone's interested.

This is really interesting. I am a lesbian myself and people are always asking me:

"Why do you keep your hair long?"
"Why do you dress so girly?"
"Don't you wish you were a boy?"
"Do you plan on getting a sex-change when you're older?"

And I always reply with:

"Are you kidding me? I love being a female, I love being feminine, and I'd never change my body."

My girlfriend is bi and she wouldn't break up with me if I did happen to get a sex-change in the future (which i wont). But I just feel like I was made female for a reason and I really don't mind being female.

Of course I'm not saying men are bad, I'm not sexist at all, but I find it unnecessary when lesbians change their entire body just to fix their sexual orientation.

I do believe people should be themselves though, and if someone really want to change themselves in such a way then I wouldn't mind.

What’s happened is that we’ve become a society that undervalues men and overvalues women.

And that's where I stopped reading because that's incorrect.

@Ann

Yeah go join a woman's bowling league or something.

Also, Nat is a guy?

>What’s happened is that we’ve become a society that undervalues men and overvalues women.

And that's just for starters.

Well I have to disagree with this. The feminist movement was about giving women options. If you lack social mobility due to your birth, then yes, you are oppressed. You can be free and your life can still suck, and you can be oppressed and your life can still be good. All in all I have to agree with feminism.
The issues I have are solely based on the fact that most feminists argue that men cannot be feminists. I find this offensive. I cannot hold a philosophy because I am a man? I'm sorry, but am I disqualified from expecting equality towards all human beings because I have a penis?
I just think that men's issues are overlooked and need to be addressed. Feminism was originally about liberating women from oppressive gender roles. I feel that in the movement today that has somehow become empowering women and depowering men. I wish the movement had stayed true to its roots and attempted to truly liberate us all from oppressive gender roles. I guess this wasn't possible. I still applaud feminists for what they've done to women, but when they obnoxiously assume me and the 50% of the earth's population I share genitals are prejudiced against them and lead lives far better to theirs, completely inaccurately, I get a little offended.
tl;dr let's not take this too far, I was just trying to point out that men have issues too.

EDIT: Society does undervalue men, but saying it overvalues women is just ridiculous.

I'll admit I was a little too gung-ho, but thanks for being respectful in your disagreement. In my opinion, feminism was an admirable, if somewhat misguided, attempt for equality, but it has become less about that and more about power. There were reasons for it. The gender pay gap myth was actually truth in the 1970s when feminism got moving.

I prefer an egalitarian point of view. In the end, we should all just try and be pleasant folks to one another. This world is bad enough and we should spread a little kindness, honesty, and care. Both genders have oppressive gender roles cast upon them. Boys are told to suck it up and take it like a man whereas little girls are convinced they need to be a size zero. Both genders have troubles. Some are worse than others. The best we can do as people is to try and rectify these issues the best we can by being the best people that we can be.

I fully submit that I could have presented my point of view so much better. I wish that there was one movement that didn't have the word men or women or anything related to those two in it. Just a movement to free us all from the labels, stigmas, and stereotypes placed upon us, whether we're men or women. A movement that would promote respect and love between all people.

That sounds so damn nice.

In response to the idea that men can't be feminists, well… we can be feminists. Us dudes just have to remember that reaction to our support of feminism will be much different from the reaction a woman will receive for being a feminist. Being a dude feminist also takes a whole lot of fucking work because we're dudes. There's so much shit that we have to learn in regards to feminism in order to properly be feminists. Not to mention that there is still tons of debate within the feminist movement between women in regards to certain subjects, such as pornography, sex workers,

I’ll admit I was a little too gung-ho, but thanks for being respectful in your disagreement. In my opinion, feminism was an admirable, if somewhat misguided, attempt for equality, but it has become less about that and more about power. There were reasons for it. The gender pay gap myth was actually truth in the 1970s when feminism got moving.

You're thinking of Second-Wave Feminism. And the wage gap isn't a myth, it's a fact that doesn't only affect women, but also people of color and the disabled. Aspects of First and Second-Wave Feminism still stand true today, but right now we're seeing Third-Wave Feminism, which deals more with sex-positivity, individualist feminism, the removal of the gender binary, etc. Basically, it's broader and is more intersectional.

I prefer an egalitarian point of view. In the end, we should all just try and be pleasant folks to one another.

That's nice and all, but we've got a long ways coming before that can really, truly happen. It's not as easy as "liking everyone equally" simply because the world is still inherently unequal and the effects of bigotry in the past have left a huge mark in how society functions today.

Both genders have oppressive gender roles cast upon them. Boys are told to suck it up and take it like a man whereas little girls are convinced they need to be a size zero.

Looks like you need Third-Wave Feminism.

I never stopped.

But my cover would have never been blown if it weren't for you meddleing kids and that dumb dog!

Day 2:
I'm starting to like female clothing.

I don't think any women got that patience.. 18 months.. long time dude

You don't think any women have that patience? So you think every woman has a hair-length attention span, then? Huh? Do you? Check your privilege.

Seriously though, yeah it's a pretty long time to go undercover as a man without somebody realizing and word getting around. But it's quite an interesting experiment, and the conclusion was just as, if not more interesting in my opinion.

It's not like she went undercover as a guy 24/7, she only went out as Ned (her male disguise) when she planned on it. I'm pretty sure when she was just chilling at home she was dressed as a regular woman

The test is a failure. You're not supposed to have fun.

I'm going in.

Inb4 the feminazis get butthurt.

Yeah…
I went there.

Look at all the progress we've made, everyone.

You tried.

Yo mamma waited 9 months for much less satisfying results.

@Sneakey Bit but you must admit the atmosphere of the thread improved when the level of intellectual stimuli declined. :/

@MDF: Some people enjoy tl;dr debates. I would participate if I knew a lot on the subject. Unfortunately, I don't.