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Anonymous attacks Israel to defend Palestines in Gaza

Last posted Nov 30, 2012 at 07:46AM EST. Added Nov 17, 2012 at 01:25AM EST
44 posts from 23 users

Link to the article here
 
 
Here is a press release from Anonymous:
Greetings World

For far too long, Anonymous has stood by with the rest of the world and watched in despair the barbaric, brutal and despicable treatment of the Palestinian people in the so called “Occupied Territories” by the Israel Defense Force. Like so many around the globe, we have felt helpless in the face of such implacable evil. And today’s insane attack and threatened invasion of Gaza was more of the same.

But when the government of Israel publicly threatened to sever all Internet and other telecommunications into and out of Gaza they crossed a line in the sand. As the former dictator of Egypt Mubarack learned the hard way – we are ANONYMOUS and NO ONE shuts down the Internet on our watch. To the IDF and government of Israel we issue you this warning only once. Do NOT shut down the Internet into the “Occupied Territories”, and cease and desist from your terror upon the innocent people of Palestine or you will know the full and unbridled wrath of Anonymous. And like all the other evil governments that have faced our rage, you will NOT survive it unscathed.

To the people of Gaza and the “Occupied Territories”, know that Anonymous stands with you in this fight. We will do everything in our power to hinder the evil forces of the IDF arrayed against you. We will use all our resources to make certain you stay connected to the Internet and remain able to transmit your experiences to the world. As a start, we have put together the Anonymous Gaza Care Package Anonymous Gaza Care Package (mirror) which contains instructions in Arabic and English that can aid you in the event the Israel government makes good on it’s threat to attempt to sever your Internet connection. It also contains useful information on evading IDF surveillance, and some basic first aid and other useful information. We will continue to expand and improve this document in the coming days, and we will transmit it to you by every means at our disposal. We encourage you to download this package, and to share it with your fellow Palestinians to the best of your ability.

We will be with you. No matter how dark it may seem, no matter how alone and abandoned you may feel – know that tens of thousands of us in Anonymous are with you and working tirelessly around the clock to bring you every aid and assistance that we can.

We Are Anonymous
We Are Everywhere
We Are Legion
We Do Not Forgive
We Do Not Forget

To the oppressors of the innocent Palestinian people, it is too late to EXPECT US
 
 
This is all a part of Anonymous’s Operation: Israel.
 
So KYM, what are your thoughts on the situation?
Personally, I grew up in a sheltered Catholic home where Israel was put on a holy pedestal so I am completely ignorant to anything bad Israel has ever done. What are your opinions?

Nov 17, 2012 at 01:25AM EST
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I dislike when people use Anonymous as if it actually has any sort of group meaning.

Anonymous isn’t a single group of people, it’s absolutely anyone who decides to forgo a handle online and remain unknown, with no demographic limitations.

So saying “Anonymous” as a collective did something is incredibly misleading and seems close to a scare-tactic.

As far as the attack on Israeli sites go, I don’t believe it will sway nor slow Israels takeover of Palestine or its mistreatment of those people living there.

Nov 17, 2012 at 01:41AM EST
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This post has been hidden due to low karma.
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Well, if Anonymous sided with Israel instead I would support them.

Nov 17, 2012 at 01:41AM EST
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I haven’t been following the story in Palestine, but what I saw in a news article, It seems as though The Israeli army is in the wrong. 20 civilians killed in Gaza, one of them a pregnant women. Although I do think Israel is in the wrong, what Anon says DOES NOT REALLY MATTER. Anon is such a vague organization with so many “members”, It’s completely impossible to see everyone’s viewpoint. And it is exactly what Chris said.
Anonymous is not everything.
They are not legion.
They do forgive.
Most will forget.

Nov 17, 2012 at 11:12AM EST
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FudgeGruck wrote:

I haven’t been following the story in Palestine, but what I saw in a news article, It seems as though The Israeli army is in the wrong. 20 civilians killed in Gaza, one of them a pregnant women. Although I do think Israel is in the wrong, what Anon says DOES NOT REALLY MATTER. Anon is such a vague organization with so many “members”, It’s completely impossible to see everyone’s viewpoint. And it is exactly what Chris said.
Anonymous is not everything.
They are not legion.
They do forgive.
Most will forget.

Expect us.

Nov 17, 2012 at 11:40AM EST
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chowzburgerz wrote:

Well, if Anonymous sided with Israel instead I would support them.

Yes… Because killing innocent civilians is just the BEST you can do. I definitely agree.

(sarcasm, btw)

Last edited Nov 17, 2012 at 12:56PM EST
Nov 17, 2012 at 12:55PM EST
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AbandonThread wrote:

I don’t support either.

I have to agree with you here. One thing that really irritates me about the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that people tend to blindly support one side or the other.

Many countries, especially the US, throw their full support behind Israel without question (for a variety of reasons). This is terrible, because Israel has committed some atrocities in the ongoing conflict.

Where I’m from, though, many people decry Israel and blindly support the Palestinians, who have also committed atrocities.

The blind partisanship without much knowledge of the facts is really counterproductive for both sides. I’ve tried to research it myself, and from what I’ve determined, neither side is completely in the right. Palestinians cannot expect Israelis to just pack their bags and leave. And it’s even stupider to think that Israelis should expect Palestinians to leave. I think that the only viable solution is a unified state, where Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights. But, the only way that that will ever work is if both sides give up the hate and fear. And that certainly does not seem like it’s going to happen anytime soon, unfortunately. And meanwhile, more and more civilians will be killed…

Nov 17, 2012 at 01:04PM EST
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I’m siding with opspe on this one. If Anon wants to avenge Palestine for Israels actions, so be it. But it’s not going to put Palestine in any better light for me. Neither side is innocent. This action is only a continuance of a never ending string of conflicts, each will begat a retaliation which will begat a retaliation and a retaliation. It’s all part of a never ending squabble that will see no resolution until nobody wins

As long as there is a side to take and fight against, those two factions will always be at war, constantly blaming each other for their problems and constantly arguing over land ownership.

Even if one side gains victory over the other, the other side will simply fight to overthrow them and continue the feud. It’s clear that the only intention present for the land is to argue over who has historical privilege to it

It would probably be more productive if the land they fight for is taken from them both and annexed into another nation that knows how to run a country properly

Nov 17, 2012 at 08:52PM EST
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I also agree that I don’t support either. I don’t see how either side isn’t in the wrong in some way. So let what Opspe and Blue Screen (of death) said suffice for my opinion as well.

Nov 17, 2012 at 08:57PM EST
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Blue Screen of Death wrote:

It would probably be more productive if the land they fight for is taken from them both and annexed into another nation that knows how to run a country properly

They tried that, it was called the British Mandate of Palestine.

Both sides just killed the British till they left.

So that’s a no go idea.

Nov 17, 2012 at 11:41PM EST
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From what I’ve heard (From potentially partisan sources, I’ll admit.), Israel has stood by as volleys of missiles have hit (Or been sent to hit) their soil, and that they’ve only recently retaliated to kill the leader of the attacks. I could be hideously misinformed though, since I haven’t been following the issue.

Nov 18, 2012 at 12:37AM EST
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Pseudogenesis wrote:

From what I’ve heard (From potentially partisan sources, I’ll admit.), Israel has stood by as volleys of missiles have hit (Or been sent to hit) their soil, and that they’ve only recently retaliated to kill the leader of the attacks. I could be hideously misinformed though, since I haven’t been following the issue.

It’s difficult because Israelis and Palestinians often use a previous attack to justify a current one. Ie “You killed a person/fired a rocket two days ago and we’re gonna retaliate”

The current crisis started when an Israeli incursion on 8th of November to find rocket launch sites ended in the death of a 13 year old Palestinian boy.

After that, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), a secular group not affiliated with Hamas, fired an Anti-tank rocket at an Israeli army jeep:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/army-jeep-reportedly-struck-by-anti-tank-missile-fired-from-gaza/

That lead to more air strikes. Eventually, the sides did come into a truce on 13th November:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/13/15139430-israel-gaza-agree-to-hold-fire-after-latest-round-of-fighting?lite

But on 14th November, Israel broke it and assassinated Ahmed Al Jabari. The leader of Hamas’ military wing, the Izz Al-Dine Al Qassam brigades.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/14/us-palestinians-israel-violence-idUSBRE8AD0V920121114

After that, Hamas blew a secret tunnel they dug underneath the border and killed more Israeli soldiers and all hell broke loose.


As to why this all happened at this point in time? Lots of theories, most because Nentanyahu called early elections and wants a popularity boost that being tough brings. Others point out that the Israelis believe everyone is too pre-occupied with Syria to give much of a fuck but your guess is as good as mine.

Nov 18, 2012 at 05:37AM EST
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burnong_phoneix wrote:

As to why this all happened at this point in time? Lots of theories, most because Nentanyahu called early elections and wants a popularity boost that being tough brings. Others point out that the Israelis believe everyone is too pre-occupied with Syria to give much of a fuck but your guess is as good as mine.

I’ve heard a few theories about the timing of this war, but the most common one seems to be that it conveniently falls after the US election and before the Israeli election. Interpret that as you will.

Nov 18, 2012 at 01:08PM EST
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Israel will be the root of greater conflicts, regardless of whether it can be faulted in the matter.
These things should be so simple.

Last edited Nov 18, 2012 at 03:22PM EST
Nov 18, 2012 at 03:21PM EST
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chowzburgerz wrote:

Well, if Anonymous sided with Israel instead I would support them.

I find it a bit ironic that you adorn a Rage Against the Machine avatar with such a comment.

Nov 24, 2012 at 12:58AM EST
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I like anonymous. The fact that there’s a bunch of guys sitting in their bedrooms somewhere trying to change the world by making crude ddos attacks on people they think are abusing human rights is realy rather adorable.They’re so plucky. It’s like the CND in the ‘80s – you know they’re never going to achieve anything close to their goals, ever, but at least they’re quite nice goals, and at least they’re trying. N’awwwwwww.

Nov 24, 2012 at 06:41AM EST
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i like how they call israel “oppressors” while they intetionally fire rockets and civlilian targets.

have these guys ever considered that all these blockades, checkpoints and harsh security regluations happened BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS?

genious.

Nov 24, 2012 at 01:18PM EST
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Jolly Jew wrote:

i like how they call israel “oppressors” while they intetionally fire rockets and civlilian targets.

have these guys ever considered that all these blockades, checkpoints and harsh security regluations happened BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS?

genious.

Why should civilians suffer for the actions of extremists. Your just blaming one of the victims by claiming they brought this on themselves. I’m not siding entirely with the Palestinians, they’re proving to be just as stubborn and violent, but Israel is not innocent in this conflict.

Nov 24, 2012 at 03:34PM EST
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My view on Anon “helping” Gaza:

I mean, what does a bunch of loosely connected, leaderless moralfags think they can do against the well-trained, disciplined and well-funded herd of nerds called the Israeli tech industry?

Furthermore, what does furthering violence, hatred and the epic fail known as war do for the war-ravaged, and starving people of Gaza?

The only thing “Anon” could possibly accomplish would be that the collective jimmies of the Middle East would become even moar rustled.

And, as you all know:

Nov 24, 2012 at 06:35PM EST
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I’ve been wondering…

Does anyone suspect that the ‘Anonymous’ in this operation isn’t quite the same Anon we know?

Instead of being a collection of worldwide hackers, what if it’s just a bunch of Palestinians using Anon’s name? After all: anyone can be Anon

This whole operation seems so horribly disorganized and infantile, more so than usual. And it seems suspect how suddenly random and out-of-the-blue it was.

Surely Anon could find enough reasons not to support Hamas so why would they so suddenly take a side? Unless this ‘Anonymous’ isn’t really a large international group at all but simply more people who are already on one side to begin with

Anybody else thinking this?

Nov 24, 2012 at 07:13PM EST
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My guess is because the whole issue is very divisive.

If you told a bunch of hackers that governments are gonna implement SOPA like laws, you’ll probably get near 100% support.

But mid east conflict? Eliminate about 50% who aren’t even interested. The split the remainder into two camps.

You’ll get a lot less manpower to work with.

Nov 24, 2012 at 09:50PM EST
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You no like dis?
You blame all dis on Anon?
Well you’re stupid. Anon is an organization and not an organization at once, they are like a loose community.
To join, you do nothing. To leave, you do nothing. To be a member, you do nothing.
Joining any Op is not required, though people are treating AnonOps as if they’re all 100% supported by Anonymous.
Nothing is supported by Anonymous as a whole.

Nov 25, 2012 at 12:28AM EST
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@kingso

I know. Anonymous is a label that any organisation can use but not an organisation itself. The Anons that hack A could be an entirely different set of people from the Anons that hack B

Which goes back to my thinking: The Anons in this particular case may not be the world fighting for Palestine, much less than that, instead this Anon is just Palestine. Because all the other Anons don’t want to get involved

But what Phoenix said makes sense too: If this Anonymous really is a global collective of Palestinian supporters, they may be few and far between.

Either way, they are nowhere near large enough to make an impact if news sources are anything to go by. The attacks have been equated to egging Israels house. No real damage

Nov 25, 2012 at 01:28AM EST
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YNG, The Grey wrote:

Why should civilians suffer for the actions of extremists. Your just blaming one of the victims by claiming they brought this on themselves. I’m not siding entirely with the Palestinians, they’re proving to be just as stubborn and violent, but Israel is not innocent in this conflict.

2 reasons.

A) that’s the only way to properly protect the civilians. IDF can’t just use divine power to decide who exactly is a terrorist and who is a peaceful man.
if they won’t set up blockades and such there is a VERY good chance civilians will die. that, i believe, surpasses the the inconvenience of the blockades by a landslide

and even then, israel tries everything it can to ease their pain by bringing Humanitarian aid to gaza and money to the west bank autonomy

B) they DID bring it upon themselves. very often the families and town know exactly who is going to commit what crime against israel and they do NOTHING to stop them. very often they even SUPPORT those youngsters to commit those crimes and celebrate when they hear news about the jews that were murdered.
They call these criminals ‘heroes’.

so, what genius solution do you have for israel? take off the blockades and defensive measures? that could bring us back to the magical 2000’s when buses used to blow up almost daily and thousends of people getting traumatized every year.

get back to the ‘67 borders? IDF did it in gaza, what’s the result? it turned into a terrorist state that shoots rockets at us at every given opportunity.

what other brilliant solutions do you have for israel?

i know one brillian solution: the arabs can just stop trying to get us all killed, admit that israel has a right to exist as a jewish state and promise to stop the murders.

after that will happen israel will gladly step back from the ’67 borders and remove the blockades.

Nov 25, 2012 at 01:43PM EST
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Outside of the sarcastic tone, that’s probably one of your best posts on this site, JJ. Especially point A).

Nov 25, 2012 at 02:06PM EST

Jolly Jew wrote:

2 reasons.

A) that’s the only way to properly protect the civilians. IDF can’t just use divine power to decide who exactly is a terrorist and who is a peaceful man.
if they won’t set up blockades and such there is a VERY good chance civilians will die. that, i believe, surpasses the the inconvenience of the blockades by a landslide

and even then, israel tries everything it can to ease their pain by bringing Humanitarian aid to gaza and money to the west bank autonomy

B) they DID bring it upon themselves. very often the families and town know exactly who is going to commit what crime against israel and they do NOTHING to stop them. very often they even SUPPORT those youngsters to commit those crimes and celebrate when they hear news about the jews that were murdered.
They call these criminals ‘heroes’.

so, what genius solution do you have for israel? take off the blockades and defensive measures? that could bring us back to the magical 2000’s when buses used to blow up almost daily and thousends of people getting traumatized every year.

get back to the ‘67 borders? IDF did it in gaza, what’s the result? it turned into a terrorist state that shoots rockets at us at every given opportunity.

what other brilliant solutions do you have for israel?

i know one brillian solution: the arabs can just stop trying to get us all killed, admit that israel has a right to exist as a jewish state and promise to stop the murders.

after that will happen israel will gladly step back from the ’67 borders and remove the blockades.

I’m not denying that civilian deaths are inevitable or that the Palestinians are the only victims. However I don’t think that Israel should recklessly fire rockets into inhabited areas to deal with the Hamas and others like them. I do think Israel should fight the Hamas, but they should be more strategic about it to prevent civilians casualties instead of trying to make up for it afterwards.

On to your conviction that the Palestinians did indeed bring this on themselves. Just because there are people who support violence against Israel doesn’t mean all of them do. The people that don’t are the ones that didn’t bring it on themselves and who shouldn’t have to suffer because of the conflict.

Lastly, the solution to the conflict shouldn’t be based solely on Israel’s terms.

You make good points, but I just disagree with you on certain matters related to this.

Nov 25, 2012 at 02:31PM EST
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“I know one brilliant solution: the Arabs can just stop trying to get us all killed, admit that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state and promise to stop the murders.”

I will simply say that Arabs have good reason to at least to detest the creation of Israel because it under minds their power to control their territory. This issue goes all the way back to the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

Palestine is the name given by Arabs to an area in the Middle East. Palestine was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire in 1517 and remained under the rule of the Turks until World War One. Towards the end of this war, the Turks were defeated by the British forces led by General Allenby. In the peace talks that followed the end of the war, parts of the Ottoman Empire were handed over to the French to control and parts were handed over to the British – including Palestine. Britain governed this area under a League of Nations mandate from 1920 to 1948. To the Arab population who lived there, it was their homeland and had been promised to them by the Allies for help in defeating the Turks by the McMahon Agreement – though the British claimed the agreement gave no such promise.

The same area of land had also been promised to the Jews (as they had interpreted it) in the Balfour Declaration and after 1920, many Jews migrated to the area and lived with the far more numerous Arabs there. At this time, the area was ruled by the British and both Arabs and Jews appeared to live together in some form of harmony in the sense that both tolerated then existence of the other. There were problems in 1921 but between that year and 1928/29, the situation stabilized.

The main problem after the war for Palestine was perceived beliefs. The Arabs had joined the Allies to fight the Turks during the war and convinced themselves that they were due to be given what they believed was their land once the war was over.

Both the Jews and the Arabs continued to attack the British. The Arabs attacked because they believed that the British had failed to keep their word after 1918 and because they believed that the British were not keeping the quotas agreed to as they did little to stop illegal landings into Palestine made by the Jews.

The Jews attacked the British authorities in Palestine simply because of the quota which they believed was grossly unfair. The British had also imposed restrictions on the amount of land Jews could buy in Palestine.

Many Jews had fought for the Allies during World War Two and had developed their military skills as a result. After the war ended in 1945, these skills were used in acts of terrorism. The new Labour Government of Britain had given the Jews hope that they would be given more rights in the area. Also in the aftermath of the Holocaust in Europe, many throughout the world were sympathetic to the plight of the Jews at the expense of the Arabs in Palestine.

However, neither group got what they were looking for. The British still controlled Palestine. As a result, the Jews used terrorist tactics to push their claim for the area. Groups such as the Stern Gang and Irgun Zvai Leumi attacked the British that culminated in the destruction of the British military headquarters in Palestine – the King David Hotel. Seemingly unable to influence events in Palestine, the British looked for a way out. This lead to the Formation of Israel in 1947 by the newly formed United Nations with the partition of Palestine into a zone for the Jews (Israel) and a zone for the Arabs (Palestine).

In the past few years and to the present, Israel has been illegally expanding it’s territory into Palestinian settlements and territories which has been condemned by the International Court of Justice. I do not think Israel is innocent in it’s formation, neither are the Arabs. The Arabs still see Israel as their homeland and will fight for it, Israel needs to adopt a better ingratiation policy with the Arab controlled areas recognizing their rights, because it was their homeland previous to the formation of Israel if they want to resolve the main conflict overall.

Last edited Nov 25, 2012 at 03:03PM EST
Nov 25, 2012 at 02:59PM EST
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@Tim

Posts like that are the kind of discussion I want to hear. We need more history lessons


I also value the input that JJ is giving. It’s good to hear from the perspective of actual Israelis

Nov 25, 2012 at 06:29PM EST
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I can’t believe that I haven’t yet posted in this thread! This is what happens when you join too late, you miss a great topic for discussion kick off.

chowzburgerz wrote:

Well, if Anonymous sided with Israel instead I would support them.

Fair enough. Your opinion is your opinion.

I don’t share your perspective. I disapprove greatly of the racist policies in Israel, and some of the horrific things that they’ve done in the past and continue to do now. I don’t agree with the idea of preemptive war in the slightest. But the Palestinians have also done horrible things, so I don’t see how either side earns my respect and hope.

I initially became aware of the conflict around the time it broke into mainstream news, because I still listen to the radio. I’m old-fashioned that way. And by “mainstream news,” I mean NPR, which I consider to be mainstream, so of that, take what you will. I thought NPR did a good job of remaining a clear third party in the situation, but I still noticed a slight slant towards Israel. So, basically, what I perceived was “these guys have done bad things, but so have the other guys. However, these guys are friends of the United States.” That’s where I think that they left it, so to say that we support them (blindly), but that they aren’t perfect in the slightest.

I perused other news sources, read articles about the Turkish ship attacks, the occupation, the viewpoints of both sides. I was trying to get a sense of depth on the matter. Overall, I couldn’t find enough reason to actually get emotionally involved in support for either side. Science knows that I tried to get to the bottom of it all and to stake a clear perspective about the problem, but I couldn’t. Not because I didn’t do enough to do this, but because both sides had done things I disagreed with and have policies and viewpoints that I really don’t like at all. So I remain interested, but more or less neutral as of now.

opspe wrote:

I think that the only viable solution is a unified state, where Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights.

I have to agree with you. But I think it’s very unlikely that that would happen anytime in the near future. Neither side is being feasible in my opinion, so I don’t think we’ll be seeing them give peace a chance anytime soon.

@Anonymous attacking Israel

This is what I mean when I think of the United States supporting Israel blindly.

>Implying Anonymous is comprised only of United States citizens

Well, it appears to be mainly US citizens who want to avenge Palestine, doesn’t it? But neither side has won my respect and hope, and neither has Anonymous for blindly supporting Israel. Not that I had much respect for Anonymous to begin with.

Jolly Jew wrote:

2 reasons.
A) that’s the only way to properly protect the civilians. IDF can’t just use divine power to decide who exactly is a terrorist and who is a peaceful man.
if they won’t set up blockades and such there is a VERY good chance civilians will die. that, i believe, surpasses the the inconvenience of the blockades by a landslide
and even then, israel tries everything it can to ease their pain by bringing Humanitarian aid to gaza and money to the west bank autonomy
B) they DID bring it upon themselves. very often the families and town know exactly who is going to commit what crime against israel and they do NOTHING to stop them. very often they even SUPPORT those youngsters to commit those crimes and celebrate when they hear news about the jews that were murdered.
They call these criminals ‘heroes’.
so, what genius solution do you have for israel? take off the blockades and defensive measures? that could bring us back to the magical 2000’s when buses used to blow up almost daily and thousends of people getting traumatized every year.
get back to the ‘67 borders? IDF did it in gaza, what’s the result? it turned into a terrorist state that shoots rockets at us at every given opportunity.
what other brilliant solutions do you have for israel?
i know one brillian solution: the arabs can just stop trying to get us all killed, admit that israel has a right to exist as a jewish state and promise to stop the murders.
after that will happen israel will gladly step back from the ’67 borders and remove the blockades.

I do indeed think that your perspective and input are interesting. I’ve never actually been able to interact with a person living in Israel.

Blue Screen (of death) wrote:

I’ve been wondering…
Does anyone suspect that the ‘Anonymous’ in this operation isn’t quite the same Anon we know?
Instead of being a collection of worldwide hackers, what if it’s just a bunch of Palestinians using Anon’s name? After all: anyone can be Anon
This whole operation seems so horribly disorganized and infantile, more so than usual. And it seems suspect how suddenly random and out-of-the-blue it was.
Surely Anon could find enough reasons not to support Hamas so why would they so suddenly take a side? Unless this ‘Anonymous’ isn’t really a large international group at all but simply more people who are already on one side to begin with
Anybody else thinking this?

That is correct. Anybody can be Anonymous.

I didn’t think of this, though. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen an operation carried out by Anonymous on a “professional level.”

I don’t know, but this almost seems to be like something Anonymous would do. Granted, they don’t have a LOT of reason to support Israel so much, but they’ve been known to have radical viewpoints. And they probably couldn’t find enough reasons not to support them, because neither side is in the right. I don’t really know what to expect from Anon, actually. I mean, it has no formal structure, and almost no structure whatsoever, so there goes an in-depth analyzation. I guess that this seems like something that Anon would do (at least, those with opinions like this), but a lot less professionally done. And that’s saying something.

Interesting theory. I’m not sure.

Last edited Nov 25, 2012 at 07:21PM EST
Nov 25, 2012 at 07:20PM EST
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zOMG
1. WALL OF TEXT
2. Seeing how this thread has turned into 100% intellectual-ness, I feel ashamed at saying that.

Nov 25, 2012 at 09:42PM EST
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Jolly Jew wrote:

get back to the ‘67 borders? IDF did it in gaza, what’s the result? it turned into a terrorist state that shoots rockets at us at every given opportunity.

The withdrawal in 2005 is a smokescreen. Nothing more.

Israel pulled their troops and settlers out of Gaza but maintained control of all airspace (shutting down the strips only airport), the entire coastline (hampering commercial fishing), power generation, import and exports (even the crossing with Egypt had full Israeli supervision) and infrastructure.

coincidently, the very year that Israel withdrew from Gaza was the year the Egypt/Gaza part of the Gaza barrier was completed.

It wasn’t so much a withdrawal than someone leaving a prison and locking the door behind him.

As a matter of fact, the United Nations, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch all still define Gaza as “Occupied Territory”.

And rockets were fired from way back in 2001. The 2005 withdrawal had nothing to do with it.

Nov 27, 2012 at 05:33AM EST
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Tim the Enchanter wrote:

“I know one brilliant solution: the Arabs can just stop trying to get us all killed, admit that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state and promise to stop the murders.”

I will simply say that Arabs have good reason to at least to detest the creation of Israel because it under minds their power to control their territory. This issue goes all the way back to the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

Palestine is the name given by Arabs to an area in the Middle East. Palestine was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire in 1517 and remained under the rule of the Turks until World War One. Towards the end of this war, the Turks were defeated by the British forces led by General Allenby. In the peace talks that followed the end of the war, parts of the Ottoman Empire were handed over to the French to control and parts were handed over to the British – including Palestine. Britain governed this area under a League of Nations mandate from 1920 to 1948. To the Arab population who lived there, it was their homeland and had been promised to them by the Allies for help in defeating the Turks by the McMahon Agreement – though the British claimed the agreement gave no such promise.

The same area of land had also been promised to the Jews (as they had interpreted it) in the Balfour Declaration and after 1920, many Jews migrated to the area and lived with the far more numerous Arabs there. At this time, the area was ruled by the British and both Arabs and Jews appeared to live together in some form of harmony in the sense that both tolerated then existence of the other. There were problems in 1921 but between that year and 1928/29, the situation stabilized.

The main problem after the war for Palestine was perceived beliefs. The Arabs had joined the Allies to fight the Turks during the war and convinced themselves that they were due to be given what they believed was their land once the war was over.

Both the Jews and the Arabs continued to attack the British. The Arabs attacked because they believed that the British had failed to keep their word after 1918 and because they believed that the British were not keeping the quotas agreed to as they did little to stop illegal landings into Palestine made by the Jews.

The Jews attacked the British authorities in Palestine simply because of the quota which they believed was grossly unfair. The British had also imposed restrictions on the amount of land Jews could buy in Palestine.

Many Jews had fought for the Allies during World War Two and had developed their military skills as a result. After the war ended in 1945, these skills were used in acts of terrorism. The new Labour Government of Britain had given the Jews hope that they would be given more rights in the area. Also in the aftermath of the Holocaust in Europe, many throughout the world were sympathetic to the plight of the Jews at the expense of the Arabs in Palestine.

However, neither group got what they were looking for. The British still controlled Palestine. As a result, the Jews used terrorist tactics to push their claim for the area. Groups such as the Stern Gang and Irgun Zvai Leumi attacked the British that culminated in the destruction of the British military headquarters in Palestine – the King David Hotel. Seemingly unable to influence events in Palestine, the British looked for a way out. This lead to the Formation of Israel in 1947 by the newly formed United Nations with the partition of Palestine into a zone for the Jews (Israel) and a zone for the Arabs (Palestine).

In the past few years and to the present, Israel has been illegally expanding it’s territory into Palestinian settlements and territories which has been condemned by the International Court of Justice. I do not think Israel is innocent in it’s formation, neither are the Arabs. The Arabs still see Israel as their homeland and will fight for it, Israel needs to adopt a better ingratiation policy with the Arab controlled areas recognizing their rights, because it was their homeland previous to the formation of Israel if they want to resolve the main conflict overall.

“Palestine is the name given by Arabs to an area in the Middle East. Palestine was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire in 1517”

wrong. the term Palestine existed way before that. it was the name the Romans gave to the area after they destroyed the Jewish uprising. the name itself was based off another nation that lived there in the ancient times – the Plestites

the Arabs that lived there were simply known as citizens of the ottoman empire. they had no nationality other than the tribe/family they belonged to. the term “the Palestinian nation” was brought up very, very late. some say it was only taken seriously after the ’67 because beforehand they were simply citizens of the Jordan kingdom and they were content with that. despite the fact that Jordan took that area illegally by invasion.

“The main problem after the war for Palestine was perceived beliefs”

No it wasn’t. The original Arabs’ plans was to form the “empire of great Syria” that would include Palestine in it. originally. there were already negotiations with the Arabs back in 1920 or so saying that Israel will be loyal to “great Syria” and support it as long they will allow Jews to have independence.
they even had some progress with their leader – Faisal. but eventually the Arab league quickly rejected his ideas. already showing hostile intentions towards the Jews.

in 1920 the first bloody riot happened because Britain declared there will be a “national home to the Jews in Palestine” they refused to accept an independent Jewish body in their “great Syrian empire”
only later after Britain completely rejected the idea and the empire and started giving independence to other provinces like Jordan the Arabs in Palestine decided to fight for their own independent state.

The Jews attacked the British authorities in Palestine simply because of the quota which they believed was grossly unfair

Wrong again. First of all, you can’t just say “simply” to something like restricting the amount of people allowed to come to a certain place based off their race and origin.
second of all. Jews started to fight the British authority because they were completely bent to the Arabs.
The alsoy restiricted Jews from buying land, restricted their movement and didn’t allow them to defend themselves from the Arabs that only grew more and more hostile as years came by.

In fact the only reason why the British did all this was just a response to these bloody atrocious riots that that the Arabs started.

Instead of taking down the criminals and condemning anyone sho supported them, they hoped to passify them and end the conflict simply by completly submitting to their demands. but in fact it only made them even more agressive.

Any sane Jew at that time could not possibly sympathize with Authoroties that outrilgtly descriminate them and intetionally favor the other branch of people soly on their race and origin.

These Riots just further prove that the Arabs will not tolerate Jewish independence in Palestine.
while the Jews constantly strived to co-existence – The arabs carved a bloody path of violence and agression.
Ben-Gurions original ideology was that the Arabs and Jews will live together in Palestine in one unified state, or at least in two separate autonomies
When the Hagana – the Jewish ILLIGAL defense organization – (yes, it was illegal for them to defend themselves with small arms) offered to garrison some of their men in Hebron -once was a thriving town of coexistence, the Jews in Hebron rejected the offer saying they don’t want to offend their beloved Arab neighbors.
What happened next? in 1929 they were all slaughtered, and those who survived were evacuated by the British!
That’s how the Arabs promoted peace in Palestine
And now it’s considered occupied territory… the bitter irony.

There used to be a reasnoble arab tribe that could be interacted with the Nashashibi tribe – they shared the same belifes jews did, knew that the more jews that are coming the better the the country is becoming by adding brilliant brain power and revenue.
but they were oblitirated by the Hussein tribe – who had nothing but hate and intolorance for outsiders, in a turf war.
in fact, their leader – Amin Al-Hussein was Hitlers personal friend!

Just to further prove the Arab’s refusal for peace, the Pil commision happened in 1937:
the British offered to seperate Palestine into 2 independant states – Jews are getting a tiny little strip of land on the northen reaches of the great sea coast.
And the arabs get all the rest.
The Jews supported the idea in hopes of finally having an idependant state and guess what? the arabs completly declined it and continued onward with 2 more years of bloody riots.

in WW2, the arabs were offically the Nazis’ allies. while the Jews fought for the British despite their descrimination.

And of course. in 1947, 29th of november. the UN itself split Palestine to the Jews’ state of israel and the Arab state.
and of course, once again. the Arabs completly declined and declared war on Israel to completly eradicate them.

The Palastinians could live happily with us side by side. we could coexist and creat an utopia. but they threw it all out in the name of their pride and preffered endless war and death over coexistence with an idependant Jewish state.

Even if they did have legitimate historic claims they have 0 moral claims they have lost all them all their they turned the Murder of innocent elderly women and childeren as an idealogy.
they threw all of their oppotunities down the toilet and still to this day refuse to coexist with us, as long as they still do, there will never be real peace.

Israel proved more than enough times it’s peaceful intetions, now it’s the Arabs’ turn.

Two little fun facts:
The palastinians have some of the best living conditions in the middle east.

before the state of israel, all the anti-semites claimed that “Jews are cancer in europe, kick them all out to Palestine”
now they claim "Jews are a cancer in palestine, kick them all out to europe.

aaa, the bitter irony…

Nov 27, 2012 at 06:14AM EST
Quote

burning_phoneix wrote:

Jolly Jew wrote:

get back to the ‘67 borders? IDF did it in gaza, what’s the result? it turned into a terrorist state that shoots rockets at us at every given opportunity.

The withdrawal in 2005 is a smokescreen. Nothing more.

Israel pulled their troops and settlers out of Gaza but maintained control of all airspace (shutting down the strips only airport), the entire coastline (hampering commercial fishing), power generation, import and exports (even the crossing with Egypt had full Israeli supervision) and infrastructure.

coincidently, the very year that Israel withdrew from Gaza was the year the Egypt/Gaza part of the Gaza barrier was completed.

It wasn’t so much a withdrawal than someone leaving a prison and locking the door behind him.

As a matter of fact, the United Nations, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch all still define Gaza as “Occupied Territory”.

And rockets were fired from way back in 2001. The 2005 withdrawal had nothing to do with it.

and why do you think israel has all this tight control over Gaza’s entry points?

oh yeah, because, you know, bloodthirsty terrorists come out of there to murder innocent people and fire rockets and explosives at civlian targets…

you know, israel is not doing this for fun.

Originally Israel belived that withdrawing and kicking out 50k people out of their homes can soften the Palastinians and start negotiating.
Shimon Peres – on of the olderst and one of the most influential politics in israel said that now that gaza is free it can turn into the Singapoore of the middle east.

but instead Hamas rose to power DEMOCRATICALLY, stated that it will fight israel untill it is destroyed and baltanly refuses to accept Israel’s right to exist.

maybe when Hamas’ Doctorine will change and they will declare they want peace with israel. israel will gladly take away all these restrictions. Right now, doing so is suicide.

and again, you are forgetting the Humanitarian aid that constantly flows to Gaza through, israel.

and the rockets at 2001 were laughting stock compared to today’s rockets.

back then they were hommade that could barely scrape a roof.

now they fire long range rockets that can reach all the way to the capitol and take down a whole apartment block.

another tiny thing: as a token of graditude of about the israeli withdrawl, the palastinians raided and desecrated the only building left standing from the jewish settelment the synogouge.

Last edited Nov 27, 2012 at 06:53AM EST
Nov 27, 2012 at 06:20AM EST
Quote

Jolly Jew wrote:

No it wasn’t. The original Arabs’ plans was to form the “empire of great Syria” that would include Palestine in it. originally. there were already negotiations with the Arabs back in 1920 or so saying that Israel will be loyal to “great Syria” and support it as long they will allow Jews to have independence.
they even had some progress with their leader – Faisal. but eventually the Arab league quickly rejected his ideas. already showing hostile intentions towards the Jews.

The reason the ideas failed had nothing to do with Jews. It was that Faisal and his brother amounted to a big crock of shit after WWI. The Al Sauds had taken the Hashemite Kingdoms in the Hejaz and Faisal was basically a king without a Kingdom so the British gave him and his brother Iraq and Jordan…..two places that they had never seen in their life. There was plans for a Pan-Arab nation but that also went to shit after the mideast was split between France and Britain.

Jolly Jew wrote:

the Arabs that lived there were simply known as citizens of the ottoman empire. they had no nationality other than the tribe/family they belonged to. the term “the Palestinian nation” was brought up very, very late.

Not any later than Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or indeed Israel. They’re all new nations. The idea for a Palestinian

Jolly Jew wrote:

Wrong again. First of all, you can’t just say “simply” to something like restricting the amount of people allowed to come to a certain place based off their race and origin.

But isn’t that what Israel is doing? Refusing to let Arab Refugees back to their land that they lived on for generations while letting Jews from Eastern Europe into Israel with a free citizenship?

Jolly Jew wrote:

Jews started to fight the British authority because they were completely bent to the Arabs.
The alsoy restiricted Jews from buying land, restricted their movement and didn’t allow them to defend themselves from the Arabs that only grew more and more hostile as years came by.

It depends on who you ask…for example, the British established a Legislative council in Palestine. The Arabs would get about 43% of the seats in this council with the British forming another 43% and the Jews and Christians forming the rest. This is despite the Arabs forming 88% of the population.

This is a common theme in negotiations in the period. Jewish negotiators always framed their demands thinking of the “potential” jewish population in the future, rather than the Jewish population at the time.

Jolly Jew wrote:

Instead of taking down the criminals and condemning anyone sho supported them, they hoped to passify them and end the conflict simply by completly submitting to their demands. but in fact it only made them even more agressive

Which is untrue because Hajj Amin al-Husayni and Aref al-Aref were each sentenced to 10 years in Prison and the British Police killed 4 Arabs.

Jolly Jew wrote:

These Riots just further prove that the Arabs will not tolerate Jewish independence in Palestine.
while the Jews constantly strived to co-existence – The arabs carved a bloody path of violence and agression.
Ben-Gurions original ideology was that the Arabs and Jews will live together in Palestine in one unified state, or at least in two separate autonomies

When the Hagana – the Jewish ILLIGAL defense organization – (yes, it was illegal for them to defend themselves with small arms) offered to garrison some of their men in Hebron -once was a thriving town of coexistence, the Jews in Hebron rejected the offer saying they don’t want to offend their beloved Arab neighbors.

The Hagana was not the first Jewish defense organization. The Bar-Giora and the Hashomer preceded it and indeed, they were active in 1907 and 09, when the Turks still ruled Palestine. The Arabs were not allowed weapons either, the British are the ones that had guns.

And don’t bring up anecdotal evidence. I can just as easily bring up the fact that In the wake of the 1920 riots in Jerusalem, the sheikhs of 82 villages around that city and Jaffa issued a statement protesting the demonstrations against the Jews.

Jolly Jew wrote:

Just to further prove the Arab’s refusal for peace, the Pil commision happened in 1937:
the British offered to seperate Palestine into 2 independant states – Jews are getting a tiny little strip of land on the northen reaches of the great sea coast.
And the arabs get all the rest.
The Jews supported the idea in hopes of finally having an idependant state and guess what? the arabs completly declined it and continued onward with 2 more years of bloody riots.

The Peel Commission would force thousands of Arabs off their land. Much Much More Arabs would have to move in comparison to Jews.

Also, the issue of Jerusalem was unresolved in the commission.


(Con’t)

Nov 27, 2012 at 10:38AM EST
Quote

Jolly Jew wrote:

in WW2, the arabs were offically the Nazis’ allies. while the Jews fought for the British despite their descrimination.

Which is silly because…the Arabs were all puppets of the British Empire at the time so we couldn’t have an “official” stance. Not to mention that Egyptians and Palestinian Arabs were recruited for the British Army as well.

There was a rebellion for an Alliance with Germany in Iraq, but it is understandable: The British had been occupiers of the Arab lands for a long time and have failed to provide what they promised to the Arabs for their support during the First World War.

It is a folly and a bit optimistic to say “ARABS LIKED GERMANY BECAUSE GERMANY HATED JEWS!”

We liked Germany because Germany was France and Britain’s enemy: Two states that betrayed and occupied Arab lands.

Jolly Jew wrote:

in fact, their leader – Amin Al-Hussein was Hitlers personal friend!

Did you know that Zionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky was Mussolini’s friend? He even set up a Jewish naval base in Italy that trained the future commanders of the Israeli Navy!

Jolly Jew wrote:

And of course. in 1947, 29th of november. the UN itself split Palestine to the Jews’ state of israel and the Arab state.
and of course, once again. the Arabs completly declined and declared war on Israel to completly eradicate them.

I’ve constantly explained why the 1947 partition plan wasa bad idea:

1. Jews were given 56% of the land, despite forming only 33% of the population

2. The Arabs received 45% of the land despite forming 60% of the population.

3. 45% of all Arabs lived in land that would be Jewish.

4. Much of the land given to the Arabs was unfit for agriculture.

5. It was completely adhoc. The Arabs had 3 separate land pieces and the Jews had two. It would never work.

Jolly Jew wrote:

Even if they did have legitimate historic claims they have 0 moral claims they have lost all them all their they turned the Murder of innocent elderly women and childeren as an idealogy.

Which is not really much different from the Irgun or the many of the policies that Israel continues to practice today.

Jolly Jew wrote:

Israel proved more than enough times it’s peaceful intetions, now it’s the Arabs’ turn.

Israel has never conceded anything when bargaining from a position of strength.

Yasser Arafat complied with all the rules of the Oslo Accords and got jack shit. Fatah sit in the West Bank drawing up negotiation after negotiation but Israel ignores them . Saeb Erekat, chief negotiator of the PA even wanted to give Israel all of Jerusalem but Israel refused. Why? Because they don’t threaten Israel and Israel continues to gobble up the West Bank.

Israel only responds to power.

But okay, it’s our turn, here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Jolly Jew wrote:

Shimon Peres – on of the olderst and one of the most influential politics in israel said that now that gaza is free it can turn into the Singapoore of the middle east.

Which is a bold face lie.

Israel doesn’t allow boats or planes into Gaza. Gaza has had restrictions placed on it since 1991, WAAY before Hamas was ruling the territory and Infrastructure and power generation are in the control of Israel. Movement between the West Bank and Gaza is heavily restricted.

There was no chance in hell that Gaza could ever turn into a financial center with those restrictions.

Jolly Jew wrote:

and the rockets at 2001 were laughting stock compared to today’s rockets.

back then they were hommade that could barely scrape a roof.

now they fire long range rockets that can reach all the way to the capitol and take down a whole apartment block.

So you agree that the blockade has done nothing to stem the tide of weapons to Hamas and only succeeded in destroying the economy and starving the people inside Gaza?

That’s good.

and again, you are forgetting the Humanitarian aid that constantly flows to Gaza through, israel.

“Why thanks Israel for letting us get humanitarian aid (from other organizations, not you) that 70% of us depend on so we don’t starve to death because your blockade has destroyed our economy and lost us our jobs!”

Humanitrian aid? You’re proud of that now? “We in Israel are so kind, we let humanitarian aid into Gaza! Oh no, we don’t supply the aid, most of it is for UNRWA but we generously allow them to move it through our territory since we’ll attack their ships if they don’t.”

Not to mention that Israel continues to use a calorie counter to judge how much food should be sent in:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

maybe when Hamas’ Doctorine will change and they will declare they want peace with israel. israel will gladly take away all these restrictions. Right now, doing so is suicide.

It’s already debating easing the restrictions after the recent ceasefire.


Again, I don’t pretend that Arabs hands are totally clean in this matter. There were riots and attacks on jews aplenty as well as many moments of intransigence.

But don’t paint yourself as completely innocent Jolly Jew, you know that Israel gets away with shit that no one else in the world can. You can’t cry “anti-Semitism” to everyone how doesn’t happen to like you.

Nov 27, 2012 at 10:39AM EST
Quote

“Not any later than Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or indeed Israel. They’re all new nations. The idea for a Palestinian”

Most of these nations also didn’t exist beforehand, only difference was there weren’t Jews who also wanted independence.

but it doesn’t matter because both the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews could live perfectly at peace, but the latter didn’t tolerate having another nation living in the same land.

“Which is untrue because Hajj Amin al-Husayni and Aref al-Aref were each sentenced to 10 years in Prison and the British Police killed 4 Arabs."

which is laughable because they were released shortly afterwards as part of the peace negotiations with Hitler and to pacify the Arabs in Palestine. and killing 4 Arabs compared to the hundreds they murdered is also pathetic.
And on the other hand, Haganah members who defended the Jewish neighborhoods from arab criminals were arrested and sentenced to jail, just to further prove that the British were bent to the arabs.

“arabs were not allowed weapons either, the British are the ones that had guns.”

that didn’t stop them from acquiring them and using them against innocent people. and even without guns they were deadly, it’s not so hard to break into someone’s house and stab all the residents to death.
it is being done to this day.

" I can just as easily bring up the fact that In the wake of the 1920 riots"
1920 was just the mere beginning , there were also riots in 1921
and back then there were still many Arab factions that protested against this blind hatred.

by 1929 all these factions were erased when the Hussein tribe rose to power, and put the bloody crusade against the Jews as a banner.

and you didn’t bring any evidence to counter the horrid massacre in Hebron – once a thriving community of co-existence – and then all of it’s Jews -who intentionally declined having Haganah troops protecting them to avoid the arabs’ discomfort – were slaughtered and forced out of the town.

That was the Arabs peaceful intentions.
just because the British did a bad job representing them in their council doesn’t give them the bloody right to start killing innocent people right and left.

“But isn’t that what Israel is doing? Refusing to let Arab Refugees back to their land that they lived on for generations while letting Jews from Eastern Europe into Israel with a free citizenship?”

this is laughable. there is no point of comparison between the two.
A. Palestine was a barren country and was almost empty. anyone could settle in, now israel is a heavily populated state and cannot accept 3 million people out of the blue.
Palestine did not belong to any nation so ANYONE could migrate there but only the jews had quotas because of the British’ fear from the arabs.
B.the Jews were persecuted all over the damn world, and when hitler rose to power and started kicking Jews out they didn’t give a single crap, they had a solid reason to go to palestine.
the refugees can easily go anywhere.
C. Jews were victims of global persecution. palastinan refugees were a result of a war they brought upon themselves. most of these refugees fled simply because they were sure the arabs will kill all the jews and they could easily avoid the war while still being able to come back for the spoils.

and on another note, after WW2 there were millions of refguees everywhere. however in a few years they all found a new place
why wasn’t the same done with the palastinan refugees?
because all of the Arab nations didn’t allow them in. in a very effective way immortalizing the refugee problem in an attempt to demonize and undermine Israel’s stand

“The Peel Commission would force thousands of Arabs off their land. Much Much More Arabs would have to move in comparison to Jews.
Also, the issue of Jerusalem was unresolved in the commission”

THAT. right here. is the most laughable statement in the whole argument.

where do i even begin?
first of all, the Jews were to get a tiny strip of land on the coast of the great sea. the area consisted almost entirely of Jews, barely any arabs had to be moved.

second. this is a completely illegitimate reason to decline the treaty. peace was promised, the Arabs in Palestine would finally get independence.
did they seriously throw this all away just because a few of them had to be misplaced?
this just proves how the arabs’ refusal to have peace.

third, that about the jewish people that had to be misplaced? it doesn’t matter they were less compared to the arabs, they were also people that had to be moved away.

and furthermore. if that is a legitimate to decline. why should israel be any better? israel has nearly a million settlers beyond the green line. if the arabs refused to move some of their own away to achieve peace then it’s completely legitimate for israel to refuse to kick out all their people.

“Did you know that Zionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky was Mussolini’s friend? He even set up a Jewish naval base in Italy that trained the future commanders of the Israeli Navy”

only Ze’ev completely cut-off all the relations with him as soon as he discovered his real intentions
and back then.

“I’ve constantly explained why the 1947 partition plan wasa bad idea:
1. Jews were given 56% of the land, despite forming only 33% of the population
2. The Arabs received 45% of the land despite forming 60% of the population.
3. 45% of all Arabs lived in land that would be Jewish.
4. Much of the land given to the Arabs was unfit for agriculture.
5. It was completely adhoc. The Arabs had 3 separate land pieces and the Jews had two. It would never work.”

it could easily work if the arabs didn’t obsess over destroying the jews.
first, it was decided by the UN.
second, the arab’s land were very fit for farming. they had jehuda and samaria, which were fertile green lands while most of the Jews’ land consisted of the barren negev. they also had the north but that was a tiny strip of land.
the jews also got terrible conditions, but they celebrated their independence despite all that.

at any case they could negotiate with the jews over it and not start a bloody conflict.

“Which is not really much different from the Irgun or the many of the policies that Israel continues to practice today”

oh wow, now you are really starting to lose your credibility. did you just seriously compare a group who defended their people to a bunch of bloodthirsty criminals that consider murder of innocents and plunder as heroism?

oh sure, the Irgun did some of this too eventually, but on a much smaller scale and only out of the bitterness and desperateness of seeing their loved ones slaughtered and nothing done about it. but you don’t seem to sympathy with them from some reason even though you do so with the Arabs.

“Arafat complied with all the rules of the Oslo Accords and got jack shit.”

oh really? i see about 2000 murdered Jews saying it’s complete nonsense

the only thing the Oslo agreement did was to stir the arabs even more and cause them to be more volitille despite the fact that they got their own autonomy and that the IDF withdrew from many places in the west bank.

“Which is a bold face lie.
Israel doesn’t allow boats or planes into Gaza. Gaza has had restrictions placed on it since 1991, WAAY before Hamas was ruling the territory and Infrastructure and power generation are in the control of Israel. Movement between the West Bank and Gaza is heavily restricted.”

and again, why? for fun? no! because terrorists come out of there to kill innocent people!
israel very falsely hoped that by withdrawing from the west bank they could soften the ruling groups there and open up friendly negotiations.
none of that happened.
they instead preferred to rain Israel down with rockets despite having complete independence there.

Yasser Arafat complied with all the rules of the Oslo Accords and got jack shit. Fatah sit in the West Bank drawing up negotiation after negotiation but Israel ignores them . Saeb Erekat, chief negotiator of the PA even wanted to give Israel all of Jerusalem but Israel refused. Why? Because they don’t threaten Israel and Israel continues to gobble up the West Bank."

except to this day they put outrageous requirements just to even start negotiating and actively refuse to admit that Israel has the right to exist as a state of the Jewish people and refuse to and put end to the terrorism.

in the past decade there were very left wing groups ruling israel that were willing to give a lot to achieve peace.
the Arab side always blew up the negotiation with something new and outrageous that israel couldn’t accept.

Nov 28, 2012 at 06:16PM EST
Quote

“So you agree that the blockade has done nothing to stem the tide of weapons to Hamas and only succeeded in destroying the economy and starving the people inside Gaza?”

of course it did. if it didn’t exist Hamas could have at least10x the power it has now.

destroying the economy? starving people inside gaza? what the hell are you talking about?
if the economy is anywhere in a bad shape is because hamas spends it all on weapons and explosives.
and the Gazans are DEFIANTLY not starving. that is completely exaggerated and far fetched. they live in a very stable and decent condition. they constantly get humanitarian aid from israel
-not just allowed, they receive a lot from Israel itself.

the blockade still allows fishing ships to operate and any merchandise is simply done by land for easy supervising.
but i guess it’s easier to just demonize israel and claim that the Gazans are starving. if any of them are. Hamas, the insane organization is to blame.
but then again, Hamas was chosen democratically….

as for this “http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza”

it’s a complete lie and a fabrication. guardian is known to be anti-israel and the source of the information they got it from is very unreliable.
there are also reports that there was organ harvesting during the Cast Lead operation in 2008 but that’s also complete bullshit.

“you know that Israel gets away with shit that no one else in the world can. You can’t cry “ antisemitism” to everyone how doesn’t happen to like you.”

dohohohohoho really now? that has to be the funniest statement you put up!

Israel gets away with shit no one else can? hmmm… what about….
USA, Russia, China, North Korea, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and so many others that no one lifts a finger against? how about the Palestinians themselves?

China intentionally starves their people and torture them to death but noooooo israel set up a blockade to defend itself against terrorists, THEY are evil!

and yes, i can cry antisemitism, because in most arguemets its people who are completely blind to the pain the Jews are going through and completely embrace the victim complex of the palestinans..
when Jews were persecuted all over the world, finally coming to their ancient homeland only now persecuted to leave it again.
when bloodthirsty terrorists murder babies in their sleep is ignoreble but a misfired rocked that by accident killed an innocent man is considered an atrocity.

and the list will just go on.

sure, Israel’s hands are not clean but it’s not knee deep in blood as the arabs’ hands are but most of what they did was out of retaliation, revenge or nessecity. they didn’t start this conflict yet they were always the ones trying to end it only to further encounter another circle of death and violence

as long as the arabs will continue to celebrate the killing of innocent jews and considering who ever did this as national heroes, there will never be peace.

Last edited Nov 28, 2012 at 06:28PM EST
Nov 28, 2012 at 06:18PM EST
Quote

I don’t like the tone here. I understand that users might be very close to the issue, and feel very strongly.

But some of the language here is not that of a civil discussion. Calling arguments “laughable” is beyond insulting alleged behaviors of either side (or the reasoning behind the action,) but it’s directing insulting the other user.

“dohohohohoho really now?”

 
Please keep the tone civil. I’d hate to lock this.

Nov 28, 2012 at 06:40PM EST

Upvotes for everybody. This is a brilliant discussion. Continue

And yea, don’t get this locked

Last edited Nov 28, 2012 at 06:43PM EST
Nov 28, 2012 at 06:42PM EST
Quote

Jolly Jew wrote:

i like how they call israel “oppressors” while they intetionally fire rockets and civlilian targets.

have these guys ever considered that all these blockades, checkpoints and harsh security regluations happened BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS?

genious.

>Israel and Palestine both target civilians intentionally
>Palestine is teh bad guys
Both of your nations need to stop being so terrible before you make comments like that.

Nov 30, 2012 at 07:46AM EST
Skeletor-sm

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