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Why do people feel the need to absolve rape victims of all responsibility?

Last posted Apr 09, 2013 at 12:06AM EDT. Added Mar 22, 2013 at 02:45AM EDT
30 conversations with 20 participants

No one asks to get raped and no one deserves to get raped, but in certain situations, there are common sense decisions that people can make to reduce their chances of getting raped.

Imagine someone walking down into a poor neighborhood at night while decked out in expensive clothes and jewelry. No one asks to get mugged, but the chances of that person getting mugged are significantly higher because of the choices they’ve decided to make. The blame for the theft lies solely on the thief, but the person walking down in the ghetto at night is responsible for putting themselves into that position, even if they don’t want to get mugged. They don’t deserve to get mugged either, but they’re putting themselves into a position where their chances of getting mugged are exponentially higher than normal due to the decisions they’re making. They’re consciously putting themselves into a vulnerable position, which is of their own doing.

But like I said, that doesn’t mean they deserve to get mugged nor does anyone ask to get mugged, but there are common sense decisions you can make to reduce your chances of getting mugged, such as not putting yourself into these positions in the first place.

Now imagine someone clicking on one of those Nigerian scam emails and having their money stolen, would you say the person that clicked on the email is partially responsible for putting themselves into a position to have their money stolen? The person that clicked on the email isn’t responsible for the theft itself, it’s the fault of the person that sent the email alone, but the person that clicked on the email is partially responsible for putting themselves into the position to have their money stolen.

Similarly, common sense would dictate that getting intoxicated past the point of consciousness at some party with a bunch of guys you might or might not know while wearing loose clothing isn’t the smartest thing to do. Absolving rape victims of all responsibility when something like this happens teaches them that they didn’t do anything wrong, which isn’t entirely true. The rape victim is partially responsible for putting themselves into that position in the first place by ignoring common sense decision making. They didn’t ask to get raped and they didn’t deserve to get raped, but they did get raped because of the poor decisions they made and a serious lack of common sense that could’ve prevented it in the first place. The rape was absolutely the rapists fault alone, but the rape would’ve never occurred if the rape victim had made common sense decisions to begin with.

Mar 22, 2013 at 02:45AM EDT
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I’m sure that most people will skip the OP, so just to reiterate, I’m not saying we should blame the rape victims for the rape itself or that the rapists are somehow less responsible. The rapists alone are responsible for the rape, and they deserve the death penalty as far as I’m concerned.

I’m just saying that in certain situations (not every situation) the rape victim is partially responsible for putting themselves into a position of vulnerability due to a lack of common sense decision making. Example includes getting intoxicated past the point of consciousness at some party with a bunch of guys you might or might not know while wearing loose clothing. This person isn’t asking to get raped nor do they deserve to get raped, I’m just pointing out that they’re partially responsible for putting themselves into a position where the chances of them being raped is exponentially higher than normal.

It’s like leaving your car doors unlocked while something valuable is inside as you go shopping. You aren’t asking for your stuff to get stolen, but the chances of it happening are higher than if you had just locked the car doors.

Mar 22, 2013 at 02:45AM EDT
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(Expecting thread to get karma bombed)

I agree with you, h0nky. In a world where anyone you meet could be a threat to you and your safety, it’s important to be careful and be responsible. I’m not necessarily saying that wearing a revealing outfit is being “irresponsible”, but sometimes (and I really stress sometimes) you have to really think about what you’re wearing and if it could make you an “easy target” like leaving your car unlocked would. I don’t necessarily think it can be an outfit alone that can cause someone to become a target, but if you do decide to wear something sexy then make sure you are always careful of what you are doing, what you are eating/drinking, and who you are with. This of course applies to people who dress in normal clothes to a party/etc, but I feel these should apply especially to anyone who wants to be showy. With great power comes great responsibility.


As for why people want to try to completely take away responsibility from the victim, I think that has to do with backlash from the slut shaming that tends to happen when rape cases are discussed. Some people probably feel like if they even suggest that a person should be careful of their clothing choice or actions then it validates all of the people who think only sluts get raped, and that tends to make people think “be responsible about your actions” means “don’t be a slut”. It’s a shame, because I think it could really help society to teach people good practices in keeping yourself safe, instead of just saying “rapists are awful people and there is nothing you can do to avoid getting raped”.

Mar 22, 2013 at 03:37AM EDT
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No one deserves to be raped no matter what they are wearing or what decisions they choose to make, rape should never be considered to be something that people should have to abide with.

Not to mention the fact that rape is often about the power trip associated with it, not that one ‘found someone hot so you just HAD to forcibly fuck another person.’

No one that is raped asks to be raped, no one that is raped deserves to be raped, no matter what they’re wearing, how they’re talking, who they’re talking to, or what they look like. If you start placing blame on the victim for someone out of their control committing a horrible act, then I would say the problem is the environment created by the person who claims that the victim is at fault, as it absolves those people who decide to rape and those people who, though they may not consider it rape (such as what happens with drunkenness and incapacitation), do so as well.

Mar 22, 2013 at 03:51AM EDT

First off, thank you for keeping the thread civil. I know how sometimes these things can get out of hand.

@Crimson Locks: Exactly, I’m just suggesting that people take the necessary means to protect themselves against people that could be a threat to their safety and well-being. In a perfect world, women (and even men) shouldn’t have to be afraid of being raped for any reason. But we don’t live in a perfect world. We have to rely on common sense and good judgement to protect ourselves the best that we can.

Like you also said, I wish that there was more that we could do to teach people good practices to keep themselves safe from dangers such as this.

Mar 22, 2013 at 04:29AM EDT
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@Chris: I’m not placing the blame on the victim. I feel I should stress the distinction I’m trying to make…

I’m saying that in certain situations (like the ones I described in the OP) the victims are partially responsible for consciously putting themselves into vulnerable situations, which could have been avoided with common sense decision making, where their chances of getting mugged/scammed/raped are exponentially higher than normal. Just because they made these decisions though does not mean they deserved or asked to get mugged/scammed/raped. In addition, the only people responsible for these crimes are the muggers/scammers/rapists themselves. The victims are in no way, shape or form responsible for the crime itself, nor should they be made to feel that they are. I’m just saying that women (and even men) should take the necessary precautions to protect themselves against people that would harm them given the chance. Throwing caution to the wind is an unwise thing to do.

I agree completely with everything that you said. No one deserves to be raped and no one asks to be raped, like I’ve said myself a few times already. However, like I mentioned above, we don’t live in a perfect world where people don’t have to worry about this sort of thing. People should be conscious of the decisions that they make, and they should take the necessary precautions to protect themselves against the kind of people that would otherwise harm them.

Mar 22, 2013 at 04:29AM EDT
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h0nkyt0nky wrote:

@Chris: I’m not placing the blame on the victim. I feel I should stress the distinction I’m trying to make…

I’m saying that in certain situations (like the ones I described in the OP) the victims are partially responsible for consciously putting themselves into vulnerable situations, which could have been avoided with common sense decision making, where their chances of getting mugged/scammed/raped are exponentially higher than normal. Just because they made these decisions though does not mean they deserved or asked to get mugged/scammed/raped. In addition, the only people responsible for these crimes are the muggers/scammers/rapists themselves. The victims are in no way, shape or form responsible for the crime itself, nor should they be made to feel that they are. I’m just saying that women (and even men) should take the necessary precautions to protect themselves against people that would harm them given the chance. Throwing caution to the wind is an unwise thing to do.

I agree completely with everything that you said. No one deserves to be raped and no one asks to be raped, like I’ve said myself a few times already. However, like I mentioned above, we don’t live in a perfect world where people don’t have to worry about this sort of thing. People should be conscious of the decisions that they make, and they should take the necessary precautions to protect themselves against the kind of people that would otherwise harm them.

Bullshit. Yes you are. This whole thread is kind of like those posts that say “I’m not racist, but…”

To say that they are responsible means you are blaming the victim, plain and simple.

Assigning responsiblity to person=you saying that it was because of that the victim did that the rape happened=blaming the victim.

But you know what? The man did it, therefore it is the man’s fault. Maybe if a certain woman doesn’t walk down a certain street or doesn’t go into a certain bar she doesn’t get in a rape scenario, but that’s just chance. You’re not going to foresee that and it’s not conscious. If you’re working with electricity and you’ve been told a billion times to put your rubber gloves on, because everyone knows that if you handle electricity without safety you will get shocked and that’s the way it’s always been and you don’t wear gloves and you get shocked, that’s foreseeable and conscious and your fault, but rape is entirely different. But you know what is entirely foreseeable and conscious? The rapist’s decision. So, it is in all entirety, the rapist’s fault.

End of story, sorry about the run on.

EDIT: Read this article

Last edited Mar 22, 2013 at 04:44AM EDT
Mar 22, 2013 at 04:43AM EDT
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@Katie C.: Ignoring the ad hominem of your opening post, I don’t know what part of…

“Just because they made these decisions though does not mean they deserved or asked to get mugged/scammed/raped. In addition, the only people responsible for these crimes are the muggers/scammers/rapists themselves. The victims are in no way, shape or form responsible for the crime itself, nor should they be made to feel that they are.”

…you don’t understand, but I’m not blaming the victim for the crime. I’m saying that in certain situations, like the ones described in the OP, the victims are partially responsible for consciously putting themselves into a position of vulnerability that could’ve otherwise been avoided with common sense and good judgement. That doesn’t mean they deserved or asked to get mugged, scammed or raped. Nobody deserves or asks for that. The only people responsible for the crimes are the perpetrates themselves, and no one else. Like I said, the victims are in no way, shape or form responsible for the crime itself, nor should they be made to feel that they are.

However, to say that the victim is responsible for the decisions that they make doesn’t mean they’re responsible for the crimes being committed against them, or that they somehow asked for it or deserved it. Are you unable to understand the distinction?

I also don’t know what kind of backwards logic you’re adhering to where you think the perpetrator is responsible for the actions of the victim before the actual crime has been committed. Using the scenarios from the OP as examples, the victims did not deserve or ask for these crimes to be committed against them, but they consciously made decisions that left them vulnerable of their own volition. That doesn’t make them responsible for the crimes, but that does make them partially responsible for putting themselves into a position where the chances of them being violated is exponentially higher than normal.

Like I said, it’s like leaving your car doors unlocked while something valuable is inside as you go shopping. You aren’t asking for your stuff to get stolen, but the chances of it happening are higher than if you had just locked the car doors.

Mar 22, 2013 at 05:39AM EDT
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The reason people generally avoid placing blame on the victim (you drank too much and passed out at that party) is probably because enough horrible things have happened to them already.
People tend to be less sympathetic if they view someone as having brought it on themselves.

Mostly though, it’s about the rule of law. The whole reason we live in society is so that you can go out in public in whatever manner or dress you choose and be able to expect not being raped, mugged or killed. By not taking the necessary precautions and purchasing your 3rd graders a bulletproof vest, you’re putting them at risk for a school shooting. By not veiling your women and forbidding them to leave the house, you’re putting them at risk of being raped. Of course, you can’t veil your women because you don’t own them, and in actuality rapists rape no matter what. They look for opportunity and when it walks past they take it. If you make it more convenient for them I’m sure they’ll appreciate it, but they generally don’t wait for someone easier or more tempting to rape; they just do it.
The fact that most rapes go unreported is a lot more concerning to me then the fact that we haven’t educated everyone on the best ways to avoid rape yet. And even if we did show everyone the error of their ways, someone would still do it, and rapist would go on trying to rape regardless.

Mar 22, 2013 at 07:50AM EDT
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(Forgive the use of “women” being the victims in all of this. But in regards to the feminist approach I’m taking, I had to make statements that accept the fact that women are disadvantaged in today’s society and are often the object of rapes, even when men, girls, and boys are also raped.)


I’ll take OP up on his stance.

Why do people feel the need to absolve rape victims of all responsibility?

We should feel no need give rape victims of ANY responsibility.

Why does anyone have a desire to give rape victims responsibility?

We place it on rapists, because they must pay for their act. We must say they were responsible for the act in order to punish them. Such is justice.

Is justice granted any further by ascribing blame and/or responsibility to the victim. Absolutely not.
 
But if you’re asking my stance, simply, I agree. I cannot disagree. I have trouble understanding how anyone could logically disagree, especially with the way it way h0nkyt0nky presented it.

Now (despite other feminists never claiming me,) I consider myself a feminist. My parents were/are legitimately concerned about my sexuality, because issues related gender, sexual orientation, and gender roles are very interesting to me, and I can get quite passionate about them.


I think that most logical people like to absolve rape victims from responsibility mostly in hindsight. After being raped (in most cases we know of, having a person manipulate the most sensitive area of their bodies manipulated for their own pleasure/sense of power when you adamantly disapproved or simply could not consent,) there is nothing good that comes from saying “I told you so” to victims. Victims aren’t even considered in that equation anymore in practice. (That is important here: “in practice.”)

Many rape and molestation victims deal with symptoms similar to PTSD. Telling them that they were too careless, too loose, too flirtatious, or the like afterwards is beyond pouring salt in the wounds.

That’s why we never tell a victim personally that they were responsible (or you don’t if you have a heart for them anyway.)
 
Now when people get on broadcast media and say that women shouldn’t do certain things, you have to read the subtext. Is this person preaching, or are they appealing? Do you think they’re trying to balance blame, help the victim, or prevent any other instances from occurring?

You can’t take away the rape from the victim, so you’re likely either “blaming the victim” to some extent, or you’re trying to avoid any other instances or rape you can.

The only good thing you can do is to avoid any other instance. So in practice, placing responsibility on the victim is not something any decent person should ever do.
 
Unfortunately, people pull what they want from such mass messages.

As soon as you say that “You can help protect yourself” to women, other people who aren’t as caring as all of those who are discussing the matter here will take that to mean that women who are raped “asked for it” or that rapists should receive lessened punishment in those instances.

I don’t think anyone here is asking for that.


 
However.
 
 
It’s too simple to say that rape will occur no matter what future/potential victims do.

In fact, if you say that, then I don’t think you’re doing feminism justice.

If rape will occur to women regardless of what women do, then you’re saying that women simply have no power in the situation in today’s society. Today’s society isn’t grand for women, but I don’t believe it’s that dire. Unless you want me to become sexist and say that those who subscribe to being women are powerless to prevent tragedy to ANY extent, then you must say that they can take responsibility for their own safety.

You absolutely must.
 
 
It is the point of most rapes that they occur not due to force, but because the victim could not consent due to being intoxicated.

Therefore, the rape would not have occurred had the victim been sober.

And unless the victim did not get him or herself drunk, then she made herself unable to consent.

As a feminist, I do not appreciate the stance that the woman has no power to prevent herself from being raped. If we say she has some power in the situation or to prevent the situation by decreasing the opportunities to be raped, then the logical and subsequent statement is that some situations of rape involve a victim who made decisions that presented more of an opportunity to be raped.

This is what I think OP is trying to say.


  • If you rape a person (that is to say, you violate a person sexually without their consent,) then you deserve to go to prison. Period. Whatever point comes from this thread, let’s all please agree that this is a constant.
  • As a person, you have to weigh what is more likely to occur to you, yourself in the world in which you live based upon the decisions you make.

There is a difference in practically being able to and being able to ideally. “Ought” and “Should.” We know this is not an ideal world, so in order to avoid bad situations in practice, you must avoid making decisions for an ideal world that we do not live in.
 
You may decide to get a bit tipsy at a party (heck, you almost have to in order to enjoy a setting where you can’t hear yourself think anyway.)
Is that OK?
Absolutely.

You’re in your early twenties, and you want to present yourself as a hot, sexual being by wearing flattering clothes.
Is that OK?
Absolutely.

You may not be able to get your friends to go to a party with that person you like, so you go it alone (heck, again, it’s almost impossible to not get separated at some point at a large party.)
Is it OK to go alone?
Absolutely.
 
Do all of these attributes make rape a more likely event?
Absolutely. The fact can’t be avoided regardless of how ideal we want the world to be.


Nice post, OP. But I must say that once you get to the point of “victim,” there’s no point in blaming the victim unless you’re just caught up in the logic of it all.

Logic, in itself, is a cold, heartless thing put place above the social and psychological well-being of victimized women.

Mar 22, 2013 at 09:36AM EDT
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OP wrote:

First off, thank you for keeping the thread civil. I know how sometimes these things can get out of hand.

Don’t worry about it too much. We have a pretty civile community when it comes to these kind of topics. We had religion and even abortion threads in the past, they went civil.

But that’s not what I’m posting here for:


Op wrote:

Now imagine someone clicking on one of those Nigerian scam emails and having their money stolen, would you say the person that clicked on the email is partially responsible for putting themselves into a position to have their money stolen? The person that clicked on the email isn’t responsible for the theft itself, it’s the fault of the person that sent the email alone, but the person that clicked on the email is partially responsible for putting themselves into the position to have their money stolen.

Eh, a lacking argument in comparison. These scam mails request the reader to reply, adding an option of choice with the addition of bait (promising money). Rape is an act of force, the ones being raped didn’t get a message before that they would get money should they follow that random male that ended up being a rapist.

But you gave other good comparisons, so I’ll let you off on this one.


Katie wrote:

But you know what? The man did it, therefore it is the man’s fault. Maybe if a certain woman doesn’t walk down a certain street or doesn’t go into a certain bar she doesn’t get in a rape scenario, but that’s just chance. You’re not going to foresee that and it’s not conscious. If you’re working with electricity and you’ve been told a billion times to put your rubber gloves on, because everyone knows that if you handle electricity without safety you will get shocked and that’s the way it’s always been and you don’t wear gloves and you get shocked, that’s foreseeable and conscious and your fault, but rape is entirely different. But you know what is entirely foreseeable and conscious? The rapist’s decision. So, it is in all entirety, the rapist’s fault.

The tone in this post shows clear signs of gender bias, but I guess I shouldn’t be suprised by that on a topic like rape. But remember Katie, “Men can’t be raped” is an ignorant argument, this post has some signs that you are the person who would say that (my apologies if that sounds rude). I’m not saying that they get raped just as often, but saying never would be ignorant.

To place the entire outcome on “the rapist’s decision” is also pretty ignorant. Various factors have to be taken into consideration here. The society he grew up in, the people he interacts with, drugs or alcohol before or during the act of rape. Do not misunderstand me, I’m not trying to legalize rape here, but your mindset of the rapist’s decision being entirely foreseeable and consious is extremely lacking.

I’m not going to talk about the Steubenville case in your article, one event does not cover a topic like rape.


Verbose wrote:

We place it on rapists, because they must pay for their act. We must say they were responsible for the act in order to punish them. Such is justice. Is justice granted any further by ascribing blame and/or responsibility to the victim. Absolutely not.

Be it fortunate or unfortunate, that is what justice is based on. Not picking one side and looking at the entire situation from an objective point of view. Consider everything that was going on during the act of crime. Add the constant possibility that not everything is as it seems.

There are numerous cases of angry teens making up a rape story in revenge to someone they dislike, not even starting on possible attention whoring. These stories are commonly badly made up, and easily discovered to be fake by the police in due time. But that doesn’t take away that damage has already been done to the person falsely blamed for rape and their reputation in society.

It’s as you said Verbose, logic is a cold and heartless thing. The judge and the police cannot assume all rape victims are speaking the truth, as this is simply not the case. It is an unfortunate consequence that legit rape victims suffer from this, but justice doesn’t have much of a choice here.

Last edited Mar 22, 2013 at 11:50AM EDT
Mar 22, 2013 at 11:38AM EDT
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This was an excellent post OP. I hope you stick around; threads as good as this tend not to propagate.

Now, something you said caught my attention:

Similarly, common sense would dictate that getting intoxicated past the point of consciousness at some party with a bunch of guys you might or might not know while wearing loose clothing isn’t the smartest thing to do.

Most of the problems in these issues tend to come from the mixed signals society sends to women. We demand that they go to parties and get drunk as the primary method of social interaction, yet when their safety is threatened, we – at least those on that specific side of the issue – believe if they hadn’t put themselves into the position, if they decided not to socialize and stay isolated from interaction, they should be responsible for whatever happens to them, rape included. Obviously, there are other means of social interaction than going out; we are an example of this. However, in most cases, internet communication supplements the primary method of actual tangible interaction, e.g. meeting friends at a bar. Not everyone is going to enjoy staying in every single night; we want to see our friends for real, maybe even make new ones. The need for sexual interaction is very much a part of this; we want to be safe, yet at the same time, women aren’t going to walk up in the club like “what up, I’m wearing a burqa, don’t come near me,” at least not in the present.

My point is that we can’t blame women for following societal conventions, because when it gets down to it, they’re only trying to find someone they can communicate on a deeper level with. If some sick motherfucker tries to take advantage of that vulnerability, they should be punished to the full extent allowed by the law. I see what the OP means when they speak of risk, but everything requires risk. Ancient hunters had to risk being mauled by a tiger when they went out in search of food, and we have to worry about getting in a car wreck when we go to work. Rape victims – because this doesn’t only happen to women – should not have to worry about whether or not they’ll be violated whenever they step out the door, and it’s up to us to change that. Perhaps OP is partially correct on partial responsibility, but we must not forget where the majority of responsibility with the crime lies: with the criminal who committed the act.

Mar 22, 2013 at 11:48AM EDT
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Here’s my argument in five words:

Freedom does not excuse stupidity.

Seriously. People are free to dress and behave however they want (as long as it’s not hurting others, of course), but you have to be smart about it.

For example: You’re free to wear gang colors whenever. But if you do, don’t walk through gang territory. It’s as simple as that.

Mar 22, 2013 at 12:15PM EDT
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opspe wrote:

Here’s my argument in five words:

Freedom does not excuse stupidity.

Seriously. People are free to dress and behave however they want (as long as it’s not hurting others, of course), but you have to be smart about it.

For example: You’re free to wear gang colors whenever. But if you do, don’t walk through gang territory. It’s as simple as that.

I say the opposite, Opspe. You want to encourage people to be smart about what they do, but people being dumb doesn’t excuse taking advantage of them.

You can get tricked into investing in a scam and get robbed. We don’t say you were a dumb investor. We blame the person who set up the scam.
The same applies here. Being stupid may increase your chances of being a victim, but you can’t blame people for putting themselves at risk


In this specific case, I don’t think that how you dress really affects a rapist. Being attractive and having an orifice a penis can fit in makes you a target for rape, and I’m not so certain about the first part.
Nor does walking in a sketchy part of town seem to be particularly risky for rape victims. (although it probably can’t help much) Statistically, most rapes happen in the comfort of your own home, and are perpetrated by people you know. It’s not like you can blame people for knowing rapists and not assuming they want to abuse you.
The only case I can think of that a person’s actions put them at risk for rape in a major way is if they drink too much in public or at parties. I still say you don’t blame the individual in those cases. It was a dumb decision, but you’re surrounded by other people; you shouldn’t be vulnerable with so many eyes around you, you should be more secure.

tl;dr, I don’t think there is a meaningful way you can encourage people to rape you short of going on craigslist and inviting people into s&m into your house.

Mar 22, 2013 at 12:47PM EDT
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Sloth wrote:

I say the opposite, Opspe. You want to encourage people to be smart about what they do, but people being dumb doesn’t excuse taking advantage of them.

You can get tricked into investing in a scam and get robbed. We don’t say you were a dumb investor. We blame the person who set up the scam.
The same applies here. Being stupid may increase your chances of being a victim, but you can’t blame people for putting themselves at risk.

Oh, no, I didn’t mean to imply that stupid behavior is any excuse for people taking advantage of others, but you can entirely blame people for knowingly putting themselves at risk. You said it yourself, being stupid may increase your chances of being a victim. So it’s your own fault if you knowingly do so!

I think that blame isn’t something that can only be applied to one party. Think of Steubenville. OF COURSE it was the two guys’ fault that they raped the girl, but it was also the girl’s fault that she got so drunk that she was incapable of even attempting to defend herself.

I don’t think how she was dressed had anything to do with it; the choice she made, whatever the rationale, to get piss drunk almost certainly had something to do with the fact that she was targeted. That being said, the choice the guys made to rape her was far, far worse, and they’re getting punished for it.

Now if you take cases like those in India, where men gangrape women for no apparent reason, I don’t think that anyone in their right mind could possibly assign any blame to the women for that. It was mostly just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the men are entirely at fault.

So my statement “freedom does not excuse stupidity”, while generally true, does not apply to all cases.

Mar 22, 2013 at 01:08PM EDT
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Some of these seem to assume that rape is an entirely sexual act, with simple triggers. But like Chris mentioned, rape is heavily enforced by being an act of domination, and as such, has variables that aren’t related to displays of sexuality or wealth. The argument that someone’s choice of dress can lead to a rape is somewhat moot in that it’s only a smaller factor compared to others, and wouldn’t change much in the grand scheme of things, as a rapist more than likely will always target someone who is exploitable, be that in physique, health, skill, or intelligence, which is why it’s a bit more pragmatic to include intoxication (An almost completely controllable factor that inhibits all functions) instead of choice of dress..

Mar 22, 2013 at 04:41PM EDT
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Cale wrote:

Some of these seem to assume that rape is an entirely sexual act, with simple triggers. But like Chris mentioned, rape is heavily enforced by being an act of domination, and as such, has variables that aren’t related to displays of sexuality or wealth. The argument that someone’s choice of dress can lead to a rape is somewhat moot in that it’s only a smaller factor compared to others, and wouldn’t change much in the grand scheme of things, as a rapist more than likely will always target someone who is exploitable, be that in physique, health, skill, or intelligence, which is why it’s a bit more pragmatic to include intoxication (An almost completely controllable factor that inhibits all functions) instead of choice of dress..

I was going to point this out, as rape victims are more likely to be raped because they’re alone than because of any clothing they’re wearing. It’s not usually a matter of someone seeing a person they find attractive and stalking them, but more assaulting someone who is alone and forcing oneself on them.

Also, it’s important to recognize that most cases of rape are done by someone that the victim knows, and often times trusts. The cases where someone attacks another out of the blue and rapes them stick out to us because they’re so shocking, but if I remember my sexual defense training (yay required college things), some 80-90% of all rape cases were done by someone close to the victim. So, while I agree AT A LEVEL that in that last 10-20%, there are focus points where the victim could have been prepared better, most people who are raped aren’t walking down the street alone at night in promiscuous clothing.

Last edited Mar 22, 2013 at 06:44PM EDT
Mar 22, 2013 at 06:40PM EDT
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Cale and Brawler raised a point I was thinking about while reading this whole thread

OP seemed to be going by an assumption here that rape occurs for clear, discernible reasons. Reasons which can be foreseen and avoided. But in reality rapists can rape for whatever reason they feel like and you can’t expect people to foresee and avoid those reasons

Could one make an effort to make themselves less appealing to rapists? Possibly. Travelling out alone in crime ridden areas while looking rich and muggable while wearing easily removable clothes might be asking for it. Yes, one could reduce their risks by not doing that but I’m pretty sure many rape cases don’t happen in just those scenario’s.

Rape also happens in domestic households. What happens then? How can you avoid those? In those cases you still cannot really fault the victims unless you want to tell them it’s their fault for getting into abusing relationships

I hear over in Pakistan and Afghanistan it is very common for widows wearing full burkas to get raped in their own homes simply because they have nobody to protect them. They weren’t even exposing an inch of flesh. Is anything their fault?

But even if women do walk around looking like a piece of meat in front of prides of lions I still don’t agree that the responsibility can be laid upon women because we should be in living in a society without such predators.

A woman has every right to walk out in the public streets in a skimpy dress. She should be allowed to dress how she likes and go where she wants without fear of predators taking advantage of her. Our society should not punish such liberty.

Now, I don’t disagree with what opspe said: Freedom does not excuse stupidity. That statement could not be truer.

But when did it become stupid to exercise your right to be a female in public?

Last edited Mar 23, 2013 at 12:24AM EDT
Mar 23, 2013 at 12:20AM EDT
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Should, BSoD.

But the world isn’t perfect, and we conduct ourselves not on what the world should be, but for what it is.

You can find examples of rape in marriages, and it’s true that the dark alley, stranger rape situation doesn’t occur nearly as often as date rape and the like.

But is that what you’d tell your daughter or your sister? A friend you care about? And if you do tell them that, is there any sort of qualifying statement?
 
And if there is a qualifying statement before they head out to a greek life party with lots of horny guys who have made specific tactics to essentially rape your sister/daughter if she ends up in a certain state (that she can control,) after pre-gaming but before getting righteously smashed, what is that qualifying statement?

Mar 23, 2013 at 01:13AM EDT
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I do feel that some responsibility needs to be put on the victim in certain circumstances. A woman going to a party dressed in an extremely short skirt, or a very revealing top, or going to certain places while dressed in this way, is encouraging herself to be a target.

It’s like if I were to go to a bad neighborhood and start shooting dirty looks at everyone while wearing gang colors. Am I completely absolved of all responsibility if I get attacked? I don’t think I should be, because I did something completely idiotic and put myself into a situation where I was more likely to be attacked.

Someone is probably going to try to counter this with “Well, your argument says that you intentionally went to a bad neighborhood and started shooting dirty looks. Rape victims don’t consciously dress in a way that makes them vulnerable.”

What if I wasn’t trying to draw in a fight? What if I was just some innocent guy who was trying to look cool, but inadvertently made myself more likely to be in a fight? That’s the situation that rape victims in certain circumstances are in.

If I wouldn’t be absolved of responsibility for making myself more likely to be attacked, why should rape victims be absolved of responsibility for putting themselves in situations more likely to be raped, no matter how intentional?

Last edited Mar 23, 2013 at 10:41AM EDT
Mar 23, 2013 at 10:38AM EDT
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To clarify more, I am not in any way saying that rape victims should be punished or held accountable for the rape, but I think that people should have to accept responsibility for putting themselves into a situation where they are more likely to be raped if they would have had any control over the situation.

Mar 23, 2013 at 12:33PM EDT
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If it’s a legitimate rape, then responsibility shouldn’t be an issue.

Mar 23, 2013 at 02:42PM EDT
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http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

I find this helps paint a better picture of rape.Not to be said this is all accurate being that a lot of rape cases are not even recorded due to our judgmental way of life. My point is if there’s a cookie jar and it says don’t eat the cookie you don’t eat the cookie regardless if its your favorite kind chocolate chip, sugar, oatmeal especially cookie doh (sick bastard). Also if its says “Eeet DA cookiez” and it smells like booze it probably not in any condition to be eaten.

Last edited Mar 23, 2013 at 08:46PM EDT
Mar 23, 2013 at 08:44PM EDT
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I kind of got a bit of a “if you dress immodestly, you could be asking for it” vibe from reading the original post when you were talking about the whole ‘portrayal’ thing that you mentioned when you used mugging as an example. I doubt that it was your focus when you made the post, but I just wanted to bring this to the discussion. Take a look at this:

See that? That’s what a number of people are dressed like before they are raped – not in some skanky, revealing presentation, but simple modesty. If you want to see something more disturbing, check this out:

That’s the whole reason that that system of covering up women to an absolute extreme exists in that part of the world – it was meant to keep people from using the abominable “asking for it” rationale. Why they still use it today baffles me, as people should honestly know better by now.

Something else worth mentioning is that most rapists go out with an intent to sexually assault someone – 71%, according to one study. Yes, there are steps that can be taken to avoid getting into a potential rape situation, but rapists are still out there, and will still look for someone to use in order to satisfy their sick ‘needs’. Regardless of if it’s someone they know or not, predators will seek out victims.

Last edited Mar 24, 2013 at 12:38AM EDT
Mar 24, 2013 at 12:36AM EDT
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I’m actually dating a girl who was raped by her father when she was very young. To say that she chosed getting raped is beyond ludacris and I agree with Chris and Verbose on this. It is never the fault of the victim. The rapist is the only person who does the decision.

Last edited Mar 24, 2013 at 04:54AM EDT
Mar 24, 2013 at 04:49AM EDT
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Omomon wrote:

I’m actually dating a girl who was raped by her father when she was very young. To say that she chosed getting raped is beyond ludacris and I agree with Chris and Verbose on this. It is never the fault of the victim. The rapist is the only person who does the decision.

I doubt anyone here would claim that.

It’s just the case that each rape case is different, and therefore each one should be approached differently. You can’t compare a kid in her own home to a frat boy party. This also counts for countries. As BSoD explained the Middle East, I know that there are African countries where males brag to each other about the amount of women they rape. Neither of these can be compared to the first world. I’m not meaning this like some are allowed, neither case takes the fact away that it’s an offense, but you get my point.

Making a post covering all types of rape at once would be impossible, so it’s only natural we can only cover a specific amount or type in our posts.

I must thank you for bringing this case up though. The father being a pedophile didn’t even cross my mind when I made my previous post. A lot of things therefor can’t be applied to this case. Same for other posters. And in this case I have little issue agreeing with you, as here no one else but the rapist can be blamed.

Last edited Mar 24, 2013 at 03:20PM EDT
Mar 24, 2013 at 02:52PM EDT
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The Rustler wrote:

If it’s a legitimate rape, then responsibility shouldn’t be an issue.

>mfw people don’t get joke

Mar 24, 2013 at 02:53PM EDT
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Regardless of situation (whether that be area, company or clothes etcetera) we should be able to trust other human beings and hope that they respect us ,too. I know a lot of the time this isn’t true, that’s how crimes happen, but we regard rape victims as victims of any other crime. Are genocide victims asking for it because their group is within another’s country? Of course not, we can travel an live freely. Are murder victims asking for it because they did something negative to the murderer? Of course not, we cannot expect to be murdered every time we do a bad thing. So are rape victims asking for it? Of course not, we should be able to go freely through neighborhoods and not get assaulted/raped. Also what may be regarded as idiocy or doing things that may make yourself a target is still not a crime or a fault, it’s just bad judgement and we should sympathize with not scold those who have perhaps not done all they could to protect themselves from harm.
BTW This is all in a ‘perfect’ society, as I’ve already said; these things happen because we do not live in a perfect society. It’s a shame ,really.

Apr 08, 2013 at 06:30PM EDT
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Rape is a serious matter to be agreed upon with your higher power. If you have a lack of a higher power, ask your local American Atheists Inc. for their opinion of that matter.

Apr 09, 2013 at 12:06AM EDT
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Skeletor-sm

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