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LET'S CONTROVERSY: Official Religion Thread

Last posted Mar 14, 2014 at 09:15AM EDT. Added Jan 16, 2014 at 04:40PM EST
166 posts from 53 users

Throwing my two cents in here with the Christians. I’m Presbyterian-ish: my upbringing is descended from the Presbyterians, but not of the denomination. I’m reformed, like Mack, but I’m not an inerrantist, which basically means I don’t believe that the bible’s stories are to be taken as the exact way things happened.

Also this thread title lied I was expecting more controversy.

Last edited Feb 09, 2014 at 10:40PM EST
Feb 09, 2014 at 10:39PM EST
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@Brawler

Why don’t we just reply to Sam, that should add some controversy.


@Sam

Here you go buddy, your controversy just for you

The fact that most of you Christians choose to reject parts of the Bible just proves to me how flawed the Bible is and that it was in fact written by ancient humans instead of an all-knowing God.

They know that

The Bible was supposed to be written by God himself. It was supposed to be the end-all, be-all book of knowledge that explains everything and is 100% true.

That’s what fundamentals like to say but not what the bible is supposed to be. It’s a record of ancient history written by prophets who also wrote down messages of God that they claimed to have received. Hence: “The word of god written through human hands”. But that’s open to interpretation. Not even 10th century scholars will agree that the bible is 100% true. That’s why they tossed out half of it

You can’t just pick and choose what you want to be true or not.

It’s equally flawed to take an “all or nothing” stance with the bible knowing full well that it is literally impossible to live exactly as a 2000 year old culture did and it’s highly likely God never intended humans to stick with that culture. But this is true in regards to those who like to cherry pick certain parts out of context just to support an argument.

Even though you may see Noah’s Ark as a simple story, it was intended to be told as the truth, and you are the ones twisting its meaning.

About as much truth as an ancient culture could remember and record it. Such things struggle with the test of time. Nobody is to blame for 2000 year old messages getting lost in translation. Blame only those who don’t ask the important questions

Also, if you accept all science has to offer, much of science contradicts with your religion, so you may only choose one.

Sure…if you believe in astrology.

Most scientific contradictions with Christianity (and other faiths) are perceived. The Abrahamic faiths do not require you to believe in what is strictly impossible, only a concept and a message. The only thing a Christian has to take from biblical history is the important lessons. The rest is flexible.

So it’s more than possible for a christian to side with both their faith and what is established fact. A wise Christian will use both: science to forward his understanding of Gods creation and use the bible to forward his understanding of God. Also you seem certain that science has established that everything in the bible never happened. It has not

If you agree with Creationism and Evolution at the same time, you are kidding yourself and the Bible.

Tell that to the Pope who ruled in favor of evolution. Even if creationism was real, the bible still doesn’t rule it out. Those who think creation and evolution must be exclusionary opposites are being hysterical. No logic (not even biblical) concludes that they must be.

You may change your mind and only choose what you want from the Bible and throw the rest away, but does God? God’s word is supposed to be final.

Word up, this boys just flowing with the gospel! Preach it brotha! Hallelujah!

Do you really think he’d take back that gays are an abomination, premarital sex is a sin, and that you are not allowed to wear mixed fabrics? (Yes, that is a verse, look it up.)

Clearly you’ve spoken to God himself so you would know. The holy spirit is strong in the one!

So what did God explain to you when you asked him why homosexuality is a sin, even though he supposedly created it? We wanna know because we were certain that was just the belief of an ancient primitive culture weaving it’s poor understanding of human sexuality into scripture

Since you reject parts of the Bible that you don’t like, what do you really follow? Are you just making stuff up as you go along? If you don’t follow the Bible 100%, what do you believe in anyways?

The teachings and morals of Christ? That’s what “Christian” literally means right? That’s why one of Christianities foundations is the idea that the old testament laws don’t need to be followed to the exact anymore

Do you really believe that God would let you bend his rules just because you don’t like some of them? Think about it. In reality, the fundamentalist Christians are the “real” Christians. They follow the Bible how it was meant to be followed instead of cherry-picking God’s Word.

Apparently, you’re so enlightened with with the word of God that you know how all Christians should follow their own religion. You must be the 2nd coming of Christ himself here to change our ways and turn us back towards the good book, right as it is written! Praise the lord!

Also you are assuming fundamentals actually follow the bible. Surprise! They don’t! Fundamentalists actually know the least about the bible compared to everyone else which explains everything about them.

Hey maybe you should go visit them and speak in front of their churches with your divine holy inspiration

I just keep seeing this same argument over and over again about being a liberal Christian and how it’s the “right” way to be Christian, and I wanted to bring up a very valid argument against it. I’m sick of holding my arguments back! I needed to let loose a little.

Ceeelebrate Jesus celebrate!
Celebrate Jesus!
Ceeelebrate Jesus celebrate!

Hahaha, okay I’ll stop…I’m just playing with ya dude. Not trying to be a dick or anything. But seriously, you come off as pretty entitled in your rant as if you have an extremely enlightened and unparalleled knowledge of religion that nobody ever considered, but you actually said nothing that your average theist hasn’t already thought about 100 times over. And this is coming from the Agnostic

You have this idealistic impression of religious people that I can tell was fostered by only looking at the worst of the bunch and not the majority. I don’t think you know many religious people at all, give or take a few acquaintances at some conservative baptist churches. I recommend you spend some more time getting to know the Christians around here. You don’t have to convert. But you could learn a few things about how Christians really think

Last edited Feb 10, 2014 at 01:56AM EST
Feb 10, 2014 at 01:41AM EST
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Derpy Vazquez wrote:

I don’t see the problem here.

Last edited Feb 10, 2014 at 02:08PM EST
Feb 10, 2014 at 01:45PM EST
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Digoxin wrote:

Oh I love that channel! Here’s my favorite:

You mad bro? LOL!

Feb 10, 2014 at 06:18PM EST
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This post has been hidden due to low karma.
Click here to show this post.

Random atheist pics to stir up controversy:

@Blue Screen

You have refuted many of my points, but also left some without answer. However, I will put that argument to rest since you covered most of it, and I applaud you for doing so! However, that was a very weak argument. It was arguing Christianity from the point of view of a Christian. However, can you counter these claims? These are from an atheist’s point of view. I know I’m being a little bit overly-euphoric, but hey, this is a controversy thread! As I said before, I don’t mind moderate Christians like you guys. You are not the problem. You’re pretty cool people with pretty cool beliefs. However, I’m just curious as to how you can have so much reason yet still be religious. For example, you stated that you know that the Bible was written by a primitive civilization. Why then do you continue follow its teachings? This very point baffles me. Care to explain and refute the images above? Anyone?

For lulz:

Last edited Feb 12, 2014 at 06:41PM EST
Feb 10, 2014 at 06:39PM EST
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Non-denominational Christian. I generally don’t have a problem with other religions (or lack thereof), but militants piss me off. I despise militant Atheists just as much as I despise militant Christians. Being a dick to other people without knowing anything about them other than their religious beliefs isn’t going to do anybody any good.

Last edited Feb 10, 2014 at 11:10PM EST
Feb 10, 2014 at 11:08PM EST
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Samuel Rodrigues said:

The Bible was supposed to be written by God himself.
That’s what fundamentals like to say…

Incorrect. We (fundamentalists) like to call the Bible the “inspired Word of God.” Men, sometimes very flawed men (David, Paul, etc), most definitely wrote the Bible. Yes, God was the “editor,” if you will, but it was definitely people that thought about it and wrote it.

The only thing we can unquestionably (remember: fundamentalist) say God literally wrote would be the ten commandments, and he had to light a mountain on fire in order to do it. Which probably explains why He contracted it out after that.

Also, if you accept all science has to offer, much of science contradicts with your religion, so you may only choose one.

I always hear this and yet people can never really show it. Evolution is pretty much the only scientific branch that directly clashes with it. I also think it’s foolhardy to accept all science has to offer. The fact is, theories and hypothesizes are proven wrong all the time. It’s almost an assurity that in a thousand years people will look back on our science and roll their eyes much the same way we do to those of a thousand years prior.

Blue Screen said:

Also you are assuming fundamentals actually follow the bible. Surprise! They don’t!

>implying we don’t

I’ve found the “Bible knowledge” thing to be a little silly. Some like to spout our ignorance because we didn’t know about the obscure passage in Leviticus 15 dealing with what to do when there’s maggots on clothing (not far off, Lev 15 actually deals with uncleanness). Ask anyone about Leviticus (or the last half of Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) and there’s probably very little they can tell you. Why? The book’s boring as hell. Next to the genealogies in I Chronicles, I found those books to be the most agonizing to read.

The New Testament is far better known and studied than the Old, mainly because it’s the most relevant and important to know. It’d be nice if we studied and learned more about the Bible, but life still happens. There’s work. School. For the married folk, children. It’s one of the classic Christian problems: trying to devote time to God and the Bible in our lives when we really don’t want to.

Feb 11, 2014 at 03:53AM EST
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@Samuel Rodrigues
>Good enough for these idiots.
Not all of those idiots are atheists. The Founding Fathers, Lincoln, Twain and Einstein were all some sort of theists albeit generally not of the largest sects. They were often critical of their faith, sure, but so was Martin Luther and he wasn’t an atheist, obviously.
>“Hi, I’m an atheist.”
Okay, first off. What’s with the picture of the serious, studious, successful-looking female college student for? Is it supposed to be the face of atheism? Because every other person in those images is male, so I question that. The main point, however, is that people believe in Christianity and not Greek mythology because Greek myths tend to contain very few morals we agree with. Most just explain how a certain event happened. Very few questioned morality, that was the philosopher’s job in ancient Greece. The Bible has creation stories but also moral teachings which people look to for wisdom and hope. The Greek Gods weren’t the nicest people, but they were there, you just had to deal with it. Jesus offered some kind of guiding light, a salvation. If you were a slave in Rome and your Gods acted like your slave masters, wouldn’t you choose to believe in the idea that “the meek shall inherit the Earth?” That, according to my understanding, is why people are offended when you say that the Bible is fictional. Not because of the logic behind the events, but the bigger picture, the morality involved.

Feb 11, 2014 at 07:38AM EST
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@Sam

You have refuted many of my points, but also left some without answer.

I covered the important parts.

It was arguing Christianity from the point of view of a Christian. However, can you counter these claims?

Actually, I’m not a Christian arguing for Christianity. Which is why it was a poor argument for the proof of Christianity, as my intent was to point out some errors in your understanding of Christians overall. I’ll let the real church goers try and refute your atheism. But my entire family is Christian, I’ve been in many churches and I’ve posted with Christians online so I’m fairly clued up on their politics and you seem to be mistaken about a lot of it

I was also simultaneously pointing out the hilarity of how you sounded like you were preaching a sermon in front of a church despite being an athiest. C’mon, you gotta laugh at that. That was pretty funny

I have no need to counter the opinions presented in all those image macro’s as those are just common rationale given for being an Athiest and the reasons you have to be an athiest are fair and understandable. They aren’t really that controversial, nor do they address the points I made.

However, I’m just curious as to how you can have so much reason yet still be religious. For example, you stated that you know that the Bible was written by a primitive civilization. Why then do you continue follow its teachings? This very point baffles me

I don’t speak for Christians but I’ll say this as an Agnostic. Life is complicated. There’s a lot to our universe that we don’t understand. In fact we only understand 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of our universe, let alone what could lie beyond it.

I trust science to the fullest degree. But I still understand that science is only what we know from within our tiny bubble of passing photons. I find it irrational to try and use science to discern a certain fact on that which science cannot be practiced on such as things beyond the observable universe (In fact I regard it as an insult to science if you treat it like your religion). This isn’t me saying there’s a teapot orbiting between the sun and mercury. The difference is that no floating space teapot ever convinced all civilization that it was there through various recorded means. We don’t have to test for a teapot before we say it’s not there but the same certainty doesn’t quite apply to an unknown force beyond our sphere of influence that has a continuous impact on people to confirm it at least exists conceptually. Same reason I cannot rule out the possibility of the multiverse

What’s the chances that there’s an old bearded man in the clouds with golden robes and a hatred for sodomites? 0% without a single doubt. But what I’m talking about here goes far bigger than what we’ve seen on poetic scriptures.

Underlying all these religious doctrines written by various ancient civilizations is the underlying idea than there’s something out there responsible for this entire mess we call reality and it’s an idea so powerful in the very nature of man himself that I have to suspect something. There could or there couldn’t be. I simply don’t know. Nobody does. No one can say with absolutely certainty. But considering a certain personal experience I had with the subject, I’m willing to accept the possibility. That’s the thing about this whole “belief” thing. It seems to come on an induvidual basis so you can’t really expect anyone but yourself to explain it to you. You’re beating your head against a wall trying

And someone like Jesus Christ simply doesn’t become this popular without existing and making a damn good presentation of it. He’s supported in more than just the Bible (He’s in the Quran too) and if more than one culture noted him in history then that’s a telling sign. Never mind the whole Resurrection, virgin birth blah blah blah, if there’s one thing I know Jesus strove to accomplish, it was his philosophical world vision of how we should behave as reasonable human beings. You could say he was an early humanitarian. Son of God or not, I’d say this guy had some pretty decent idea’s. Loving neighbors and doing unto others and whatnot. Even if you don’t believe in the guy, it wouldn’t hurt to take his advice on how to not be a dick


@TSG

Evolution is pretty much the only scientific branch that directly clashes with it

And yet it doesn’t. Evolution clashes with Kent Hovind but not with Christianity. People think it clashes thanks to creation science but remember that creation science has next to nothing to do with the spiritual philosophy of Abrahamic religion.

IMO those who use evolution as an argument against religion (and vice versa), have a severe misunderstanding of both

>implying we don’t

Last edited Feb 11, 2014 at 08:39AM EST
Feb 11, 2014 at 07:58AM EST
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Quick point out, BSOD, that the survey you posted was of religious knowledge for multiple religions.

Feb 11, 2014 at 02:38PM EST
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Sam wrote:

Sorry for butting in and getting all “argue-y” on all of you, but…

The fact that most of you Christians choose to reject parts of the Bible just proves to me how flawed the Bible is and that it was in fact written by ancient humans instead of an all-knowing God. The Bible was supposed to be written by God himself. It was supposed to be the end-all, be-all book of knowledge that explains everything and is 100% true. You can’t just pick and choose what you want to be true or not. You keep bringing up the point that it’s just supposed to be a book of morals and metaphorical stories made to teach a lesson. Despite the fact that you believe that, the Bible, as I said previously, was written by God himself and was intended to be the book of the truth. Even though you may see Noah’s Ark as a simple story, it was intended to be told as the truth, and you are the ones twisting its meaning. Also, if you accept all science has to offer, much of science contradicts with your religion, so you may only choose one. If you agree with Creationism and Evolution at the same time, you are kidding yourself and the Bible. You may change your mind and only choose what you want from the Bible and throw the rest away, but does God? God’s word is supposed to be final. Do you really think he’d take back that gays are an abomination, premarital sex is a sin, and that you are not allowed to wear mixed fabrics? (Yes, that is a verse, look it up.) Since you reject parts of the Bible that you don’t like, what do you really follow? Are you just making stuff up as you go along? If you don’t follow the Bible 100%, what do you believe in anyways? Do you really believe that God would let you bend his rules just because you don’t like some of them? Think about it. In reality, the fundamentalist Christians are the “real” Christians. They follow the Bible how it was meant to be followed instead of cherry-picking God’s Word.

I just keep seeing this same argument over and over again about being a liberal Christian and how it’s the “right” way to be Christian, and I wanted to bring up a very valid argument against it. I’m sick of holding my arguments back! I needed to let loose a little.

I mean no harm guys, honestly! I like all most of you guys on here as people, I’m just not a very big fan of your religious beliefs. Keep this in mind though: I actually prefer liberal Christians like you guys to the fundamentalists, but still, I wanted to put this out there.

You don’t exactly know much about the bible. . .don’t you.

The bible is not just some book we Christians look to and say “It is 100% true, all hail Numbers!”, it’s a book of various topics with many authors and rewriting through history. The Old Testament comes directly from the Jewish Torah, or the history and and accounts of the Jewish people and the formation of what will happen in the christian New Testament. The Old Testament has everything from the wise sayings of Solomon, the conquests of Joshua, to the Exodus, and everyone’s fucking favorite book. . . .Numbers. It documents Jewish law and their own interpretation of the beginning of the heavens in and earth.

The New Testament in made up the accounts of Jesus’s accounts from his apostles and the stories of the first church and later it is made up of our greatest prophet Paul whom’s letters make up most of the New Testament.

So no, God did not write the bible. His servants did, and through them his word is written. The fact of the matter is that there is open interpretation and that you imply I and many others need to take every part of our faith medievally serious such as Joshua looking into the sky, saying “stop there criminal scum, you have violated the law!” and the sun stopped.

Also, what exactly is a ‘liberal’ christian? Is there ‘conservative’ christians as well or ‘whig’ christians? Do you mean Apologist folk or even moderate christians?

Feb 11, 2014 at 03:11PM EST
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Chickenhound the Cruel wrote:

You don’t exactly know much about the bible. . .don’t you.

The bible is not just some book we Christians look to and say “It is 100% true, all hail Numbers!”, it’s a book of various topics with many authors and rewriting through history. The Old Testament comes directly from the Jewish Torah, or the history and and accounts of the Jewish people and the formation of what will happen in the christian New Testament. The Old Testament has everything from the wise sayings of Solomon, the conquests of Joshua, to the Exodus, and everyone’s fucking favorite book. . . .Numbers. It documents Jewish law and their own interpretation of the beginning of the heavens in and earth.

The New Testament in made up the accounts of Jesus’s accounts from his apostles and the stories of the first church and later it is made up of our greatest prophet Paul whom’s letters make up most of the New Testament.

So no, God did not write the bible. His servants did, and through them his word is written. The fact of the matter is that there is open interpretation and that you imply I and many others need to take every part of our faith medievally serious such as Joshua looking into the sky, saying “stop there criminal scum, you have violated the law!” and the sun stopped.

Also, what exactly is a ‘liberal’ christian? Is there ‘conservative’ christians as well or ‘whig’ christians? Do you mean Apologist folk or even moderate christians?

Liberal theology usually takes a more metaphorical stance on the bible, interpreting it as myth with an applicative lesson, similar to Aesop’s fables. Unitarians and pragmatists are considered “liberal christians”, as well as anti-reformed theologians.

Feb 11, 2014 at 04:17PM EST
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Teh Brawler wrote:

Liberal theology usually takes a more metaphorical stance on the bible, interpreting it as myth with an applicative lesson, similar to Aesop’s fables. Unitarians and pragmatists are considered “liberal christians”, as well as anti-reformed theologians.

Well. That explains that.

That kind of theology isn’t particularly good theology it seems, as considering the bible to be entirely made up of myths and considering one’s faith to be as little more then a parable can bring someone dangerously close to secularism and opens larger doors for pagan corruptions.

Feb 11, 2014 at 04:35PM EST
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You know Sam, those pictures aren’t clever and funny so much as they are smug.

As for why I follow God’s teachings, even if the stories are rather fanciful, I’ll just say that said stories being 100% plausible isn’t the point. What matters is that they give you proper morals to live your life by. Like, I am pretty sure that a lot of stuff in the OT and even parts of the NT are meant to be metaphors. Heck, Jesus used many metaphors in his teachings. The core of religion is meant to help people lead good and moral lives. So it’s not a matter of whether or not they stories are true or not. It’s about whether or not believing in them makes you a better person.

And yes, one should indeed be flexible when it comes to being a follower of God. Like, I’m pretty sure that God doesn’t want us to hate homosexuals or deny scientific advancements. Remember that a lot of that stuff in the Bible was written hundreds of years ago, and times have indeed changed since then. It’s all a matter of perspective, and remembering the era in which it was written. While some of the stuff in the Bible in terms of messages is dated and metaphorical, it still promotes values and morals that I believe has made me a better person.

So to summarize, whether the stories were true or not isn’t the point of being a Christian. It’s about becoming a better person because you follow those teachings.

Feb 11, 2014 at 04:45PM EST
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Chickenhound the Cruel wrote:

Well. That explains that.

That kind of theology isn’t particularly good theology it seems, as considering the bible to be entirely made up of myths and considering one’s faith to be as little more then a parable can bring someone dangerously close to secularism and opens larger doors for pagan corruptions.

That’s why it’s not widely advocated in the Church and in seminaries.

Feb 11, 2014 at 04:57PM EST
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Again, while not all of the stories in the Bible are 100% accurate, there are still some that are true. The key is understanding which ones were real, and which ones were just metaphors.

Feb 11, 2014 at 05:00PM EST
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Alright if you want controversy then here: the reason I’m a deist is because I find the beliefs of many religions to be highly unethical. I can’t morally worship someone who would torture someone eternally for any reason. I have no logistical problems with the idea of a god, just moral ones. Infinite punishment for finite sins doesn’t sit right with me.

Feb 11, 2014 at 05:13PM EST
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LightDragonman1 wrote:

Again, while not all of the stories in the Bible are 100% accurate, there are still some that are true. The key is understanding which ones were real, and which ones were just metaphors.

I don’t think many were ‘metaphors’, and more like just things ancient writers had a hard time explaining. For example, the flood which mentioned in Genesis is also seen a number of times throughout the lands and to the Jews the flooding of the world might have just been the large flooding of the region.

As for accuracy, I am not so certain. When the jews wrote something down, they made damn sure they wrote it well. The people of the Law were known to throw out their entire work over tiny little mistakes, no matter how small. The Jews are a truly amazing people when it comes down to their history, as one reads the bible it is obvious just how much detail they put into their records.

@Classic Rock

God doesn’t torture anyone for a eternity, he gives them two choices in life;
1) Serve Him
2) Don’t serve Him.

If one wants to truly be away from god for all time, then god does that by casting them out of heaven. Where one goes from there is what we call Hell. However, no one really knows what Hell is and can only be really described as destruction, or the place where the traitor angels also dwell. When it comes to the theology behind hell, no Christian truly knowns wether or not it is literal fire or figurative fire, whatever that may mean.

Last edited Feb 11, 2014 at 05:18PM EST
Feb 11, 2014 at 05:13PM EST
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LightDragonman1 wrote:

Again, while not all of the stories in the Bible are 100% accurate, there are still some that are true. The key is understanding which ones were real, and which ones were just metaphors.

Recognize that I have a bias when I say this, but I would argue that all the stories in the bible are based off of some truth. Did God really create all of existence and life in a time frame equal to that of a modern understanding of seven days? I don’t think science and divinity are mutually exclusive, so probably not. Did God create all of existence and life? In my beliefs, yes. While the focus should be looking at God’s interaction with man, His presence and involvement in life are emphasized when we see the stories of the bible as having a certain truth to them, even if the human understanding of how those events transpired is skewed.

Feb 11, 2014 at 05:18PM EST
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LightDragonman1 wrote:

Again, while not all of the stories in the Bible are 100% accurate, there are still some that are true. The key is understanding which ones were real, and which ones were just metaphors.

I understand that it’s all fake. Well, to me anyways, and what do I know? I’m just a godless, fedora-wearing fool aren’t I?

Thanks guys! Looks like no one cared to refute the images that I put up. Is it just that you can’t?

@Arlon

Thank you for being the only one who made any attempt to argue the points in the images. Well, two of them, and those weren’t even disproving religion. Hell, one of them was just a joke. You also countered the second one wrong. The Greeks did have morals that their religion gave them. They had laws given to them by the Gods, it’s just you didn’t know. They also had a hell where bad people and non-believers went FYI. If you think the Greek gods were douchebags, you should see yours. Killing the first-borns of Egyptians, flooding the Earth, killing almost all living things, creating disease and death, and torturing people eternally for something they did in their short mortal life because some chick ate an apple, and much, much more! Also, the Bible’s morals aren’t all that great. (homophobic, sexist, racist, supports rape, supports slavery, kill people for working on a “holy” day, etc.)

STIMULATING QUESTION: What makes your religion any more valid than other religions? People on here (Ex: Chickenhound) Talk like their religion is obviously the right one and that it’s a “no duh” thing to say. Why is yours any more real than, let’s say, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Islam, Mormonism, Norse gods, etc.? Show me proof that yours is real.

If you had proof of your religions, I would join you, but no one has yet, so I’ll continue being atheist.

PROTIP: Don’t say you can’t disprove it. You can’t disprove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster or a purple unicorn that can breathe fire created the universe can you? I offer no proof of their existence, so you assume they are made up. That’s exactly how I feel about God.

@Blue Screen

I see no more reason to debate with you since you pretty much share my views, and I can’t really argue with you on something we both agree on. Also, we’re buds, so I don’t want to ruin that. :3

DISCLAIMER: If you think I’m being a jerk and dislike you for your ideology, you are mistaken. I do not dislike any of you. As I said before, I think most of you are really cool people. My only strife is with your ideologies themselves. Aren’t I allowed to argue ideologies? People have rights, ideas don’t. That’s just what religion is: an idea. Nothing more. If you’re offended by what I say, just remember that I’m not insulting you, I’m insulting an idea created by ancient desert men.

Last edited Feb 11, 2014 at 07:26PM EST
Feb 11, 2014 at 07:22PM EST
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Sam wrote:

I understand that it’s all fake. Well, to me anyways, and what do I know? I’m just a godless, fedora-wearing fool aren’t I?

Thanks guys! Looks like no one cared to refute the images that I put up. Is it just that you can’t?

@Arlon

Thank you for being the only one who made any attempt to argue the points in the images. Well, two of them, and those weren’t even disproving religion. Hell, one of them was just a joke. You also countered the second one wrong. The Greeks did have morals that their religion gave them. They had laws given to them by the Gods, it’s just you didn’t know. They also had a hell where bad people and non-believers went FYI. If you think the Greek gods were douchebags, you should see yours. Killing the first-borns of Egyptians, flooding the Earth, killing almost all living things, creating disease and death, and torturing people eternally for something they did in their short mortal life because some chick ate an apple, and much, much more! Also, the Bible’s morals aren’t all that great. (homophobic, sexist, racist, supports rape, supports slavery, kill people for working on a “holy” day, etc.)

STIMULATING QUESTION: What makes your religion any more valid than other religions? People on here (Ex: Chickenhound) Talk like their religion is obviously the right one and that it’s a “no duh” thing to say. Why is yours any more real than, let’s say, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Islam, Mormonism, Norse gods, etc.? Show me proof that yours is real.

If you had proof of your religions, I would join you, but no one has yet, so I’ll continue being atheist.

PROTIP: Don’t say you can’t disprove it. You can’t disprove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster or a purple unicorn that can breathe fire created the universe can you? I offer no proof of their existence, so you assume they are made up. That’s exactly how I feel about God.

@Blue Screen

I see no more reason to debate with you since you pretty much share my views, and I can’t really argue with you on something we both agree on. Also, we’re buds, so I don’t want to ruin that. :3

DISCLAIMER: If you think I’m being a jerk and dislike you for your ideology, you are mistaken. I do not dislike any of you. As I said before, I think most of you are really cool people. My only strife is with your ideologies themselves. Aren’t I allowed to argue ideologies? People have rights, ideas don’t. That’s just what religion is: an idea. Nothing more. If you’re offended by what I say, just remember that I’m not insulting you, I’m insulting an idea created by ancient desert men.

You don’t actually want to debate. You want to mock, isn’t it. I want to say many thing, many bad and horrible truths which would probably getting me fucking banned, but I am not going to. I realize it would be childish to even ‘counter’ your kinds of shitposting which frankly is pissing the fuck out of me.

My religion is not some kind of god damn idea, it is my faith and the faith of many. You insult me by insulting my faith so arrogantly demoting my faith and turn around saying your neutral.

Feb 11, 2014 at 07:44PM EST
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@Sam

I’m not a forum mod, so I have no jurisdiction here, but I’m going to ask you to tone it down. We’re all trying to be civil about this, and I don’t think anyone has said anything accusatory or offensive to you. You’re being very belligerent for no real reason, and honestly, I am getting a little offended. You have a right to your opinions, but if anyone is shoving anything down people’s throats here, it’s you.

Feb 11, 2014 at 08:24PM EST
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Chickenhound the Cruel wrote:

You don’t actually want to debate. You want to mock, isn’t it. I want to say many thing, many bad and horrible truths which would probably getting me fucking banned, but I am not going to. I realize it would be childish to even ‘counter’ your kinds of shitposting which frankly is pissing the fuck out of me.

My religion is not some kind of god damn idea, it is my faith and the faith of many. You insult me by insulting my faith so arrogantly demoting my faith and turn around saying your neutral.

Calm down! Calm down! I don’t mean to cause any emotional strife. If I did, I am sorry. Instead of just saying how hurt you are, why don’t you just put up some of your best arguments for me to see and be productive? If you can’t counter my claims and have instead resorted to being offended, I will assume I have won. That is, unless you are willing to continue this debate.

Yes, I am willing to debate if you are. Well, are you up for it? To be terribly honest, this is just my natural disposition to the subject. As I said in my original post when I started this forum, I am a licensed douchebag. That wasn’t a joke. Well, I don’t have the license, but I truly am when it comes to a topic like religion.

On a side note, it being your faith does not make it free from questioning. Everything is subject to questioning. That’s who I am: the Devil’s Advocate, the questioner.

To start the debate off, you just stated that it is your faith. Faith means strong belief in something. Usually, especially in the case of religion, faith is blind faith. It is believing in something that is not really there. Why would you need to have “faith” in the absolute truth? That’s what your religion is supposed to be, correct? The truth? Then why is it a faith, something you have to believe in to be real despite its non-existence?

To quote Mark Twain,

“Faith is believing what you know ain’t so”

Also, I would like you to counter a few of my stronger points in my last post. (Ex: How is your faith any more real than the thousands of other faiths out there?)

@Teh Brawler

Advice taken! As I said before, I’m sorry. I just have a natural tendency to talk down like this when it comes to religion. Is what I posted above better? Again, I don’t really know what the limit is. I’ll keep toning it down until I get it right if I have to. (To an extent. I’ll still argue my point.)

Last edited Feb 11, 2014 at 08:36PM EST
Feb 11, 2014 at 08:33PM EST
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Yeah Sam, I’m not quite sure you understand how strongly people feel about their personal beliefs and the like.

Religion and philosophy means much more to people like me than just “lol a bunch of fanciful stories that we think are true”. To me at least, they are what drives us to become better people, and to find our purpose in life. While I don’t mind debating, it has to be civilized. Debates can indeed strengthen my faith much more than you think, as it allows me to view it in an even greater light than before. What you are doing is more akin to trolling, and not the funny kind either.

Feb 11, 2014 at 08:34PM EST
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LightDragonman1 wrote:

Yeah Sam, I’m not quite sure you understand how strongly people feel about their personal beliefs and the like.

Religion and philosophy means much more to people like me than just “lol a bunch of fanciful stories that we think are true”. To me at least, they are what drives us to become better people, and to find our purpose in life. While I don’t mind debating, it has to be civilized. Debates can indeed strengthen my faith much more than you think, as it allows me to view it in an even greater light than before. What you are doing is more akin to trolling, and not the funny kind either.

I know. It’s just been a long time since I was religious, so it’s hard to know what it feels like to have a faith. I had it once, but I’ve been atheist for as long as I can remember. Also, whenever I have debates like this, I’m used to arguing against extremely hard-headed people who don’t care to listen to what I have to say. I have to tone it down to the appropriate level for this site and for the demographic I’m aiming for. (liberal/moderate Christians)

Well, why aren’t you debating then? Counter my points! I’m waiting very patiently. Again, “What makes your religion more real than all of the others?”

Feb 11, 2014 at 08:40PM EST
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Might as well try to counter one of your arguments; that being the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster one.

To me at least, that is a very cheap way of trying to disprove someone’s belief (it’s basically a “no u” statement). You’re not really giving any sort of basis or actual debate, instead resorting to name calling.

Aside from that though, simply comparing God to the FSM, misses the point about why we follow God (and for that matter, why so many people throughout history have all followed their own deities). It’s because that, to some of us at least, having the belief in a higher power is what gives us hope and helps us to find our higher calling in life. You may indeed find it ridiculous, but to that I can also say that the idea that we are here “just cause” is just as insane. By believing in God or some other higher power, we are inspired to do better in our lives here on Earth.

That’s not even getting into the archeological evidence for many of the stories in the Bible. While they may not exactly prove the existence of God, they at least show that many of the stories had basis in reality. What does the FSM have?

Feb 11, 2014 at 08:43PM EST
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Sam wrote:

Calm down! Calm down! I don’t mean to cause any emotional strife. If I did, I am sorry. Instead of just saying how hurt you are, why don’t you just put up some of your best arguments for me to see and be productive? If you can’t counter my claims and have instead resorted to being offended, I will assume I have won. That is, unless you are willing to continue this debate.

Yes, I am willing to debate if you are. Well, are you up for it? To be terribly honest, this is just my natural disposition to the subject. As I said in my original post when I started this forum, I am a licensed douchebag. That wasn’t a joke. Well, I don’t have the license, but I truly am when it comes to a topic like religion.

On a side note, it being your faith does not make it free from questioning. Everything is subject to questioning. That’s who I am: the Devil’s Advocate, the questioner.

To start the debate off, you just stated that it is your faith. Faith means strong belief in something. Usually, especially in the case of religion, faith is blind faith. It is believing in something that is not really there. Why would you need to have “faith” in the absolute truth? That’s what your religion is supposed to be, correct? The truth? Then why is it a faith, something you have to believe in to be real despite its non-existence?

To quote Mark Twain,

“Faith is believing what you know ain’t so”

Also, I would like you to counter a few of my stronger points in my last post. (Ex: How is your faith any more real than the thousands of other faiths out there?)

@Teh Brawler

Advice taken! As I said before, I’m sorry. I just have a natural tendency to talk down like this when it comes to religion. Is what I posted above better? Again, I don’t really know what the limit is. I’ll keep toning it down until I get it right if I have to. (To an extent. I’ll still argue my point.)

What debate is there exactly to debate that you have started? I gave you a damn debate about the bible and informed you and you go around telling us all that I am some blind fool! If you want to argue, then learn how to argue first and keep to the subject at hand.

A reasonable debate doesn’t require you being a idiot, if you are going to get so easily offensive because you want me to be fucking offended, then this is how I am going to respond. Calm down my ass.

Faith is blind faith? You assume all faith is blind. Is it blind for a soldier to survive a war then for his faith to come back home, is it blind to assume the impossible possible? The notion that all faith is blind is arrogant, as there are many kinds of faith and assume my belief in god to be blind. I can thus say your disbelief is blind, since you have faith in his un-existence. I have faith in the truth of god’s word and through my faith I am redeemed by the word and the truth of god.

My faith when I examine it by theology is based on my own experience. . .and knowledge of other faiths;
Catholicism is far to governmental.
Orthodox is too cool, but basically Slavic catholics.
Islam is based from a angel whom tells a prophet “Your the chosen one” and Muhammad does Matrix stuff
Buddhism is secular, and rarely explains some things.
Shinto is well. . .Shinto.
Taoism is adorable
Confucianism is Philosophy church
Shamanism is. . . .shamanism
Animism and Voodoo is magical
Hinduism is Polytheistic
and of course Druidic is just silly

I am Protestant because Lutheranism makes more sense to me theologically.

Feb 11, 2014 at 08:51PM EST
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LightDragonman1 wrote:

Might as well try to counter one of your arguments; that being the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster one.

To me at least, that is a very cheap way of trying to disprove someone’s belief (it’s basically a “no u” statement). You’re not really giving any sort of basis or actual debate, instead resorting to name calling.

Aside from that though, simply comparing God to the FSM, misses the point about why we follow God (and for that matter, why so many people throughout history have all followed their own deities). It’s because that, to some of us at least, having the belief in a higher power is what gives us hope and helps us to find our higher calling in life. You may indeed find it ridiculous, but to that I can also say that the idea that we are here “just cause” is just as insane. By believing in God or some other higher power, we are inspired to do better in our lives here on Earth.

That’s not even getting into the archeological evidence for many of the stories in the Bible. While they may not exactly prove the existence of God, they at least show that many of the stories had basis in reality. What does the FSM have?

This didn’t prove your religion, but it was sort of an eye-opener to why you believe what you do.

Counter-claims:

- That is a valid way of debating. That’s how they do it in court, that’s how they use the scientific method, it’s how research papers are written, etc. For something to be true, it needs evidence. Religion is not an exception. Claims require evidence, and the existence of a god is indeed a claim.

- I can see where you come from with the hope part. I disagree personally, but I can let you slide with that one. In my opinion, you don’t need a religion to have hope or morals. I have morals without a book or a deity that tells me what they are, which I am particularly proud of. Also, since I do not believe that God is real, I prefer to have less hope than fool myself with a god, similar to the placebo effect.

- On the “just cuz” part of your argument, I will state my position on this. I would actually prefer to say “I don’t know” to many unknowns instead of just filling in all the holes of things science can’t explain yet with “God did it”. For example, scientists don’t exactly know what caused the Big Bang or where the initial matter came from. To many people, this unknown would bother them, so they would use God to explain it and feel secure. Not me. I’d rather wait to discover it myself and/or for scientists to eventually find the answer instead of using God as an alibi. Who knows? The answer may as well be God, but until there is solid evidence, I will not resort to believing in one as a default explanation for everything.

- What archaeological evidence? I am aware that there is proof of a flood and proof that Jesus existed, but nothing too major. Just because Jesus might have been real doesn’t mean that he was the Son of God and had powers of any sort or came back to life. There is no evidence of that. Also, there might have been a flood, but it did not cover the entire Earth or was as massive as the flood of legend. Also, where’s the evidence for the rest of the story or that God caused it? I could make up a religion where the FSM caused a flood and there would be archaeological proof of that flood according to your logic. I could also say that Ben Franklin was his son and had God-like powers. There is “evidence” for both of these claims.

So, was that nicer? I’m trying to be less of a sarcastic prick if you can tell. So, care to dispute these facts or my next question?

QUESTION: How do humans have free will? If a slave-driver gave his slaves the option to work or die, would that be considered free will? If not, then why is only having the option of following God or burning forever considered free will? Also, he supposedly has a plan for everything. If he does, how is there any free will?

Feb 11, 2014 at 09:11PM EST
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Chickenhound the Cruel wrote:

What debate is there exactly to debate that you have started? I gave you a damn debate about the bible and informed you and you go around telling us all that I am some blind fool! If you want to argue, then learn how to argue first and keep to the subject at hand.

A reasonable debate doesn’t require you being a idiot, if you are going to get so easily offensive because you want me to be fucking offended, then this is how I am going to respond. Calm down my ass.

Faith is blind faith? You assume all faith is blind. Is it blind for a soldier to survive a war then for his faith to come back home, is it blind to assume the impossible possible? The notion that all faith is blind is arrogant, as there are many kinds of faith and assume my belief in god to be blind. I can thus say your disbelief is blind, since you have faith in his un-existence. I have faith in the truth of god’s word and through my faith I am redeemed by the word and the truth of god.

My faith when I examine it by theology is based on my own experience. . .and knowledge of other faiths;
Catholicism is far to governmental.
Orthodox is too cool, but basically Slavic catholics.
Islam is based from a angel whom tells a prophet “Your the chosen one” and Muhammad does Matrix stuff
Buddhism is secular, and rarely explains some things.
Shinto is well. . .Shinto.
Taoism is adorable
Confucianism is Philosophy church
Shamanism is. . . .shamanism
Animism and Voodoo is magical
Hinduism is Polytheistic
and of course Druidic is just silly

I am Protestant because Lutheranism makes more sense to me theologically.

See how you feel about all the other religions? How they’re “too governmental, about some random dude who does magical stuff, barely explains things, is adorable to watch, is based on magic, and just plain silly?” Well, that’s how I feel about all of those religions, and yours as well! Join the club. You feel exactly the same way about the other religions as I do for all of them, yet by some coincidence, you believe in yours with all your heart. So, why is that exactly? The reasons you don’t believe in the others are not valid in the slightest. You just went down the list and said, “fake, BS, fake, more BS, ridiculous, silly, magical, illogical, etc.” You are aware that the people in those religions believe in theirs just as strongly, if not more than you? You’re telling me to not be an offensive asshole, yet here you are, demoting all of the other religions. Why is it that yours is an exception?

Could it be that your parents told you that yours was real since birth, so you never had the choice for yourself? That’s something to think about.

Let me know if I’m still too much of a douche. I’m working on it, okay?

Feb 11, 2014 at 09:23PM EST
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Sam wrote:

This didn’t prove your religion, but it was sort of an eye-opener to why you believe what you do.

Counter-claims:

- That is a valid way of debating. That’s how they do it in court, that’s how they use the scientific method, it’s how research papers are written, etc. For something to be true, it needs evidence. Religion is not an exception. Claims require evidence, and the existence of a god is indeed a claim.

- I can see where you come from with the hope part. I disagree personally, but I can let you slide with that one. In my opinion, you don’t need a religion to have hope or morals. I have morals without a book or a deity that tells me what they are, which I am particularly proud of. Also, since I do not believe that God is real, I prefer to have less hope than fool myself with a god, similar to the placebo effect.

- On the “just cuz” part of your argument, I will state my position on this. I would actually prefer to say “I don’t know” to many unknowns instead of just filling in all the holes of things science can’t explain yet with “God did it”. For example, scientists don’t exactly know what caused the Big Bang or where the initial matter came from. To many people, this unknown would bother them, so they would use God to explain it and feel secure. Not me. I’d rather wait to discover it myself and/or for scientists to eventually find the answer instead of using God as an alibi. Who knows? The answer may as well be God, but until there is solid evidence, I will not resort to believing in one as a default explanation for everything.

- What archaeological evidence? I am aware that there is proof of a flood and proof that Jesus existed, but nothing too major. Just because Jesus might have been real doesn’t mean that he was the Son of God and had powers of any sort or came back to life. There is no evidence of that. Also, there might have been a flood, but it did not cover the entire Earth or was as massive as the flood of legend. Also, where’s the evidence for the rest of the story or that God caused it? I could make up a religion where the FSM caused a flood and there would be archaeological proof of that flood according to your logic. I could also say that Ben Franklin was his son and had God-like powers. There is “evidence” for both of these claims.

So, was that nicer? I’m trying to be less of a sarcastic prick if you can tell. So, care to dispute these facts or my next question?

QUESTION: How do humans have free will? If a slave-driver gave his slaves the option to work or die, would that be considered free will? If not, then why is only having the option of following God or burning forever considered free will? Also, he supposedly has a plan for everything. If he does, how is there any free will?

(1) Theology =/= Science, do you even know what the scientific method is?
(2) If this is your attempt at trying to be nicer by comparing my faith to just plain old delusion so openly, you are failing miserably.
(3) Kay
(4) Do you remember my post on the bible. The bible is made from oral traditions and eyewitness accounts and has by historical dignity a claim which can be looked into and thus we assume so otherwise, since history is not a certainty. Saying that Franklin is the son of god is just silly, as we know more about Franklin and he made no claims of it, but you assume we will believe your word on it because we are ignorant? The FSM is a purposefully mockery of religion which means it has no claims outside of it being a spoof and the entire debate of “I say it so, so thus it is” logic is flawed beyond compare.

On the subject of Free Will;

You are free to choose as you wish. You either willing choose god and christ or you do not. I mentioned hell before so I am not going to mention it again. Free will does not guarantee limited options. No free will is a place without choice, with only one direction no matter how many twists and turns we can go through it. Life itself is not free will, as you eventually up at the door of death. God gives all the will to join or not to join with the consequences included.

You also realize people can divert from God’s plan.

Feb 11, 2014 at 09:29PM EST
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Sam wrote:

See how you feel about all the other religions? How they’re “too governmental, about some random dude who does magical stuff, barely explains things, is adorable to watch, is based on magic, and just plain silly?” Well, that’s how I feel about all of those religions, and yours as well! Join the club. You feel exactly the same way about the other religions as I do for all of them, yet by some coincidence, you believe in yours with all your heart. So, why is that exactly? The reasons you don’t believe in the others are not valid in the slightest. You just went down the list and said, “fake, BS, fake, more BS, ridiculous, silly, magical, illogical, etc.” You are aware that the people in those religions believe in theirs just as strongly, if not more than you? You’re telling me to not be an offensive asshole, yet here you are, demoting all of the other religions. Why is it that yours is an exception?

Could it be that your parents told you that yours was real since birth, so you never had the choice for yourself? That’s something to think about.

Let me know if I’m still too much of a douche. I’m working on it, okay?

Work harder.

My feeling on other religions are neutral. I respect and understand why they believe in their faiths and I believe in mine and I gave my opinion as you asked on why I don’t follow them. You have not shown you respect my faith at all, you consider it delusional and deserving of easy mockery and cannot even grasp the fact someone believe in god or a faith, which is what you have been shitposting.

You asked for my damn opinion, and you attack me for it. Typical.

Let me tell you a little story. I have gone to a evangelical encampment for years, and still do, and that is where I became a christian in my youngest of years and drifted apart. I was once even suicidal, I hated being bullied around and eventually through a Youth group at my church my life got back on track where I am as healthy as a land whale as I am today. When my parents lost their jobs to Michigan’s shit, the church hired us and through the grace of god we survived. Don’t you fucking even dare say I am not without my choice, and act like I am some retarded child unable to think for myself.

Feb 11, 2014 at 09:37PM EST
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@Sam

I see no more reason to debate with you since you pretty much share my views, and I can’t really argue with you on something we both agree on. Also, we’re buds, so I don’t want to ruin that. :3

I don’t want to have to argue with you either. We’re still buds. But don’t worry because this discussion changes nothing between us. I think you are a smart guy and you can be perfectly reasonable. There’s just a lot for you to understand (nor will it be easy to understand). You have your own material sorted out obviously, but the important lessons you need to learn right now is how to deliver your material tactfully and respectfully

Now on that note…

I understand that it’s all fake. Well, to me anyways, and what do I know? I’m just a godless, fedora-wearing fool aren’t I?
Thanks guys! Looks like no one cared to refute the images that I put up. Is it just that you can’t?

You know, I really feel that your retort boils down to “NUH UH, CUZ I NEED SOLID PROOVES!” and you appear to be irrationally dismissing everything people are telling you here on the sole basis that you expect them to do the impossible.

It sounds like you want someone to come up as say “Athiesm is wrong because I have this photograph of God right here!”. You know that’s impossible. And you are being told that hard evidence is not the reason why people believe in God in the first place.

People here are trying to tell you why they believe in God, but I feel you completely write them off because their reasons are not conforming to your expectations.

Notice that nobody is trying to convert you. Nobody is trying to tell you not to be an athiest. Nobody is saying you are wrong to be one. That’s why nobody is trying to “counter those arguments in those images” because there’s nothing to counter. Those are opinions/jokes, not contrary, controversial evidence in favor of atheism that offer real arguments for thiests to counter. This is not Pundit Kitchen where we accept a demotivational poster as a valid debate subject anyway. But they are opinions that are equally valid as every other opinion for believing anything and people respect those opinions even if they don’t agree with them. People are trying to be fair to you and your beliefs, but I find you are not returning in kind.

You are allowed to argue ideologies. Just don’t be offensive over it and debate proper

Remember: A truly scientific mind frees himself from bias and fallacy and asks questions ready to listen and learn. Not to attack and belittle

Let me know if I’m still too much of a douche. I’m working on it, okay?

Keep practicing, you are getting slightly better. But not by much. Reel it in more and try to actually listen. Many of your questions have been answered, but I’m not sure if you read them. I suggest re-reading the whole page and try to read it from an alternate perspective.

Couple more notes:

For something to be true, it needs evidence.

This is an oversimplification. If that’s how the scientific community worked, then we’d be missing out on a ton of popular theories, including the big bang and evolution. Goodness knows both those theories started off getting tons of flack for their lack of evidence in the beginning, but look where we are. Something can still be theoretically possible even with minor evidence. And evidence is more than just geological samples.

What makes your religion any more valid than other religions?

Everybody has the same reason. Perspective.

You can’t disprove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster or a purple unicorn that can breathe fire created the universe can you?

Just wanna point out that FSM is a bad comparison. This article that clearly points that it is satire and bam, disproved.

Could it be that your parents told you that yours was real since birth, so you never had the choice for yourself? That’s something to think about.

This is an unfair accusation and comes off as very smartass. For all you know, Chickenhound bases his belief purely on his own findings, not what he’s been told


@classicrock

I can’t morally worship someone who would torture someone eternally for any reason.

Did you know that there’s no biblical evidence that hell is fire and brimstone?

Last edited Feb 12, 2014 at 03:08AM EST
Feb 12, 2014 at 03:03AM EST
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So what I’ve got out of Chickenhound the Cruel and Blue Screen (of Death) is that hell isn’t really that bad of a place. I can accept that and it makes me feel a bit better about the idea of religion, but I still have moral qualms with a lot of the Old Testament.

Feb 12, 2014 at 06:11PM EST
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Samuel Rodrigues wrote:

Why is yours any more real than, let’s say, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Islam, Mormonism, Norse gods, etc.?

Oh, you did NOT just bring the Mormons into this!

Gone rustled my Mormon jimmies!

Nah, but for real though. Human experience is formed of qualia, which are subjective experiences. I can’t describe what blue looks like to a blind person, except by metaphor, because that is qualia about which he has no frame of reference. Sometimes I wonder if I tomatoes taste different to other people because others like them so much, when I hate them.

I feel that God exists, and that my beliefs are correct, but those are feelings, qualia. Just like I cannot demonstrate to you what tomatoes taste like to me, I can’t show you how I know God is real. The best I can do is metaphor, some might say “the spirit burns within you”. Since I experience this as I try to connect with God, I expect that you can, too.

But maybe you won’t. Because I still don’t like tomatoes.

Feb 12, 2014 at 06:46PM EST
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Hell, at least in my POV, is more of a self-inflicted place. It was created in order to separate the devil and his followers from God after all. He simply cannot allow anyone who chooses not to follow him and be redeemed by Jesus into such a pure place such as heaven. So while it isn’t al fire and brimstone in a literal and physical manner, it’s more like a place of unbearable guilt, regret, and despair that you could have chosen to be with God, but didn’t.

Harsh I know, but that’s my belief.

Feb 12, 2014 at 07:07PM EST
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Samuel wrote:

I understand that it’s all fake. Well, to me anyways, and what do I know? I’m just a godless, fedora-wearing fool aren’t I? Thanks guys! Looks like no one cared to refute the images that I put up. Is it just that you can’t?

You are running on a bad excuse here that lacking certain aesthetics inexplicably makes you fall outside a certain stereotype. A stereotype based on behavior but not looks is only associated with certain aesthetics, but that doesn’t mean those are required to fall within the stereotype. It’s not about the fedora on your head, it’s about the fedora in your heart.

Oh, and it’s kinda ironic here that you point out that associating you with stereotypes or insulting you is wrong and doesn’t proof you wrong, while we constantly spot you doing that exact thing to the opposing party. Kinda double standards don’t you think?

But that wasn’t the point there, so moving on. It’s that those images aren’t helping the discussion in any way possible, you are posting them for the sole reason to rustle jimmies or stir up controversy (as you even admitted), and aren’t so much willing to respectfully discuss the case as you’re more just out there to insult other parties because they disagree with you while running on stolen arguments.

Calm down! Calm down! I don’t mean to cause any emotional strife. If I did, I am sorry. Instead of just saying how hurt you are, why don’t you just put up some of your best arguments for me to see and be productive? If you can’t counter my claims and have instead resorted to being offended, I will assume I have won. That is, unless you are willing to continue this debate.

Hoo boy you guys! Danth’s Law!

This didn’t prove your religion, but it was sort of an eye-opener to why you believe what you do.

Does he have to prove religion is correct towards a non-believer? No, because that’s a futile case. Do you really think any party can convince you there’s a greater being out there? So why should they even start trying to convince you? Nobody here is trying to convert you, stop being paranoid.

Likewise, can you deliver full evidence that for example the Big Bang occured? It’s a matter of perspective what theory makes the most sense to a person, but that doesn’t make theirs 100% correct yet. All other posters here are aware of that fact, except you.

Like you, I am not a religious person, but your stubborness is really bad for a respectful discussion and you really need to work harder on toning it down. I suggest you read Blue Screen’s post 4 above mine again.

Last edited Feb 12, 2014 at 08:09PM EST
Feb 12, 2014 at 07:09PM EST
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Tchefuncte Bonaparte wrote:

So what I’ve got out of Chickenhound the Cruel and Blue Screen (of Death) is that hell isn’t really that bad of a place. I can accept that and it makes me feel a bit better about the idea of religion, but I still have moral qualms with a lot of the Old Testament.

Well, Hell is not a place that one would want to vacation, its just we don’t really know what it exactly is. What is guessed and possible is that is a place away from god, as we cast him out of our lives he will cast others in the same way to the point where even Christ would not remember them.

Well to put those Moral qualms aside, the Old Testament is the chronicles of Jewish History and like all history, Morality is last place compared to conquest. I am not certain which parts of the Law was actually god’s true law or just Israelites writing some of their own rules, since they blessed the lord for every other sentence.

I am sort of educated on some of the old testament if you have any questions about the Law, Conquests, and other Jewish adventures.

Feb 12, 2014 at 08:37PM EST
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I assume hell is just total oblivion. Heaven is something, hell is nothing. Because IMO that’s all that is necessary for a god to do. While the whole concept of hell may be improbable, I consider that to at least be it’s most probable form. That is to say: there is no form at all. You just don’t go anywhere whatsoever

I mean, the only reason we get this elaborate image of hell is thank’s to the wild imaginations of renaissance artists.

This is where the idea comes from. Nothing else supports the image we’re all familiar with. But I bet God would look at that and think…“But why? What’s the point of making all that when I can just do nothing with you?”

Last edited Feb 12, 2014 at 10:36PM EST
Feb 12, 2014 at 10:26PM EST
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Way I see it, the difference between Heaven and Hell lies in WHO YOUR NEIGHBORS ARE.

Heaven is where great people get to hang out with good people.

Hell is where terrible people have to put up with other terrible people.

Because evil is its own punishment.

Feb 12, 2014 at 10:59PM EST
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Well, I’ve read through some stuff, and I’ve made my decision:

I am not arguing anymore! At all! I’m not even going to attempt to be nice, I’m just outright stopping. Blue Screen and Random brought up some good points to me, and it made me rethink my actions on here. Not to mention that this thread is bad for my temper, my reputation on KYM, and not to mention my precious, yet totally worthless karma I’ve worked so hard to build up.

I’ll just observe you guys talk from the sidelines, and maybe butt in, but only for religious discussion, not to debate. If another one of my euphoric brethren (Derpy) wants to take the reins and debate, by all means, go for it! I won’t be though.

I still believe that there are strange double standards on this forum though. For example, if someone says “God is real”, no one bats an eye. (No one has said exactly that yet, but I’ve seen people indirectly say it.) However, if I say “God is fake”, I am considered an asshole. (I haven’t directly said that, but I’ve indirectly said it. I would know, I wrote it.) Also, if I say religion is silly, people get pissed. If Chickenhound says Islam and Taoism is silly, no one bats an eye.

That seriously needs to be dealt with.

Okay, before I say my final goodbye to this thread, I will leave a stimulating question for you guys to talk about:

What’s your opinion on other religions? There’s been lots of talk on Christianity and all that, but what about all the others out there? How do you treat their ideals and the people who believe in them? Good ones to talk about are Islam and Satanism, both because of the heavy discrimination against them (Atheists as well, but atheism isn’t a religion with set ideas, and we’ve already talked about that for a while). So, get to discussing!

Before you try to argue with me, remember this:

Last edited Feb 13, 2014 at 12:40AM EST
Feb 13, 2014 at 12:38AM EST
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Samuel Rodrigues said:

Thanks guys! Looks like no one cared to refute the images that I put up. Is it just that you can’t?

>Muh problem of evil
Free will. God gives us a choice. If there was only one option (good/serve God), it wouldn’t be much of a choice, now would it? Hence the existence of evil and why God allows Satan to do his thing.

>Eternal torment
Once again you can take your pick over what “hell” really is. Dante and many others like to think of it as permanent separation from God. Many consider this torment because of the believe in an innate need for God we have. A need that many fill with other things (wealth, power, other religions, in the case of /r/atheists, arrogance and pride, etc.). There’s also the beleive that in hell, you get everything you could ever want, you just never get any sense of fulfillment from it.

Even if hell is fire and brimestone, I don’t get why people always get so caught up by it. I could get the “tyrant” and “evil God” arguments if you actually had to do something to get out of it. You have to do nothing. God gives a expiration free pass to paradise and the only thing you have to do is accept it is acknowledge what He has done for us (dying for our bullshit, creating the universe, etc.).

It’s like if people bitched about how evil the government is for creating jury duty when all you’d have to do to get out of it is say hey, can I not have jury duty? There’s a part of me that thinks God created hell and went, “Man, there’s no way they’d ever choose that when all they have to do is accept who I am.” and then sits there slack jawed every time someone picks hell over heaven because “no loving God could ever create a place like that!”

>some guy I’ve never heard of
When we were in charge? Oh, he’s referring to the shit that happened in the 1600s. I guess if we’re whipping out “sins of the father” arguments, I can pull up Stalin, Hoxha, and all those other wonderful atheists who’ve done not so pleasant things throughout history.

>“I am an atheist because I think science can disprove God.”
Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat Of course, this is part of the never ending ride of religious arguments. Who’s denying? And who’s accusing? I think most people, Christian and atheist alike, acknowledge there’s no way to “test” God. If He created the universe, why would he be bound by following its laws?

One thing I will never, ever forget was the day I watched one of those Science Channel shows (I think it was The Universe) and the episode was about the multiverse theory. After they talked about the “bubble” and “string” ideas, the narrator went on to say that these scientific theories may require some “faith” to believe. It made me realize that many “scientific thoeries” are completely untestable. They require just as much faith as the very God their supporters like to deny.

>appeal to authority poster
>Lincoln
>atheist

Wut. It took me fifteen seconds on Google to show how was not an atheist. Same for Einstein.

>inb4 “agnosticism is atheism” argument
I don’t know who any of those others are, nor do I care. We could argue how great slavery is because the founding fathers, and many brilliant 19th century people backed it. In fact,

There is no difficulty in answering this question, on grounds both of reason and of fact. For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule.

--Aristotle

>“You came up with the idea, you proof it.”
Again, never ending circular hell of which side is the “denier” and which is the “accuser.” Pretty much the same exact thing as above.

>Christianity poster
The belief that there are tiny things that make you up that rapidly vibrate and move around. The only thing holding you together is this invisible force that repeals other invisible forces--that’s how everything is separated from everything else! Oh, and when you cut one of those tiny things in half, it creates a huge explosion that will destroy all the other tiny things in the area. Isn’t it amazing how ridiculous you can make anything sound when you simplify it?

The best part is it’s not even correctly mocking Christianity. God doesn’t remove an evil part of you when you accept him. Human nature and sin is always present. If it wasn’t, /r/athiesm wouldn’t have half the topics berating Christians’ “hypocrisy.” Jesus also isn’t “his own father.” The Father and the Son are two distinct parts of the Trinity. There are things only the Father
knows (the date Revelation will go from the last four episodes of Evangelion over to End of Evangelion, for one), things only the Son could do (the “zombie” part as was so eloquently put for the creator of the universe deciding to take one for the team), and stuff only the Holy Spirit can do (guide us in the post-Christ world).

>There is no evidence that either is based on real events
Yeah, like the Hittites. They’re just a made up Bible civili--oh wait, they discovered they were real.

The flood was completely fake, except it has now been mentioned in three separate, and completely independent civilizations.

Somehow, Israel and the Jews just popped into existence one day.

Sennacherib referencing his attack on Jerusalem against Hezekiah was just an autocorrect error.

Every single modern historian (and ancient ones like Josephus) are just delusional in their belief Jesus was a real person.

It’s almost as if there’s evidence to show these things really did happen, and that’s why it’s non-fiction.

And, of course, reality is always realistic

>Freedom of Speech
No arguments on this one. Freedom of Speech is one of the most important tenants of modern society, even if it does lead into flame wars and fallacies.

>Noah’s ark
The Bible never specifies how many animals were on the ark, only that there were “two of a kind” (or seven, counting the sacrifice animals). Common fundamentalist doctrine holds that “kind” refers to a common ancestor of the various species (i.e. there was a single “cat” that branched off into the various species today). After the flood, *micro*evolution combined with genetics took over and gave us the many species we have today.

Regarding supplies, take your pick. The Bible never goes into detail the year+ on the ark. God could have supplied them directly (as he did to the Israelites in the desert, Elijah in the wilderness, and Jesus with the 5,000 and 4,000) or they could have had an epic fantasy-style adventure, leapfrogging from remaining landmass to landmass while supplementing it with fishing and rainwater.

Now that I’ve fallen for the bait, I’ll have to save the Blue Screen “not knowing Bible trivia =/= not following the Bible” response for tomorrow and how that Pew survey’s complete bullshit.

Last edited Feb 13, 2014 at 02:58AM EST
Feb 13, 2014 at 02:51AM EST
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You want me to take over this debate?

Well I’m pretty much agnostic so……Yeah.
Prove to me there is a god and I’ll change my view.

Last edited Feb 13, 2014 at 03:46AM EST
Feb 13, 2014 at 03:46AM EST
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Sam wrote:

I still believe that there are strange double standards on this forum though. For example, if someone says “God is real”, no one bats an eye. (No one has said exactly that yet, but I’ve seen people indirectly say it.) However, if I say “God is fake”, I am considered an asshole. (I haven’t directly said that, but I’ve indirectly said it. I would know, I wrote it.) Also, if I say religion is silly, people get pissed. If Chickenhound says Islam and Taoism is silly, no one bats an eye.
That seriously needs to be dealt with.

The issue here isn’t what you believe in yourself, the issue is how you look at other believes.

We have religious and non-religious people here, but we don’t claim that our believes are inarguably correct. With your tone however, you give away the opinion that you’re inarguably correct with no respect to the other party.

Believing in something is a matter on perspective. People believe into what makes the most sense to them. That includes believing in the scientific method. I don’t think I saw people here telling me that my believes are wrong simply because I don’t believe in something greater.

You throw all religions in one box, and call them all silly with no exceptions possible. An open-minded person would look at them individually and argue which believes make more sense. Like we’ve been countering you with multiple times that there’s a difference between believing in a great deity or a flying blent of spaghetti and meatballs, something close-minded people would look at as the same.

And all religions are silly in their own way, based on the side you look at. I don’t think anyone here claimed Christianity is without guilt. Some parts of Islam are normal, others blow themselves up. Some parts of Christianity are normal, others rape little boys. Some parts of atheism are normal, others will tell people who find faith in believing their dead son is in a better place that they are idiots. No side is without guilt, each party has their crazy-minded side.

Feb 13, 2014 at 05:55AM EST
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Sam wrote:

Well, I’ve read through some stuff, and I’ve made my decision:

I am not arguing anymore! At all! I’m not even going to attempt to be nice, I’m just outright stopping. Blue Screen and Random brought up some good points to me, and it made me rethink my actions on here. Not to mention that this thread is bad for my temper, my reputation on KYM, and not to mention my precious, yet totally worthless karma I’ve worked so hard to build up.

I’ll just observe you guys talk from the sidelines, and maybe butt in, but only for religious discussion, not to debate. If another one of my euphoric brethren (Derpy) wants to take the reins and debate, by all means, go for it! I won’t be though.

I still believe that there are strange double standards on this forum though. For example, if someone says “God is real”, no one bats an eye. (No one has said exactly that yet, but I’ve seen people indirectly say it.) However, if I say “God is fake”, I am considered an asshole. (I haven’t directly said that, but I’ve indirectly said it. I would know, I wrote it.) Also, if I say religion is silly, people get pissed. If Chickenhound says Islam and Taoism is silly, no one bats an eye.

That seriously needs to be dealt with.

Okay, before I say my final goodbye to this thread, I will leave a stimulating question for you guys to talk about:

What’s your opinion on other religions? There’s been lots of talk on Christianity and all that, but what about all the others out there? How do you treat their ideals and the people who believe in them? Good ones to talk about are Islam and Satanism, both because of the heavy discrimination against them (Atheists as well, but atheism isn’t a religion with set ideas, and we’ve already talked about that for a while). So, get to discussing!

Before you try to argue with me, remember this:

You are either out of these things or you are in, there is no in-between now since this comment is really rustling my jimmies to the stars and beyond.

Your paranoid double standard is really getting on my nerves. No one bothers the faithless on this site and the only reason we have been poking and prodding at you is because of a direct problem in your thinking, which is you have zero understanding how religion works, which you have proved yourself a number of times. The only reason we consider you an asshole and I quote;

“I’m not even going to attempt to be nice”

Thats another major problem, your character. You display yourself as a fucking child whom is unable to grasp the fact that being a asshole doesn’t make you cool or even fucking intelligent, it makes you a asshole. You have problems reading my comments, you have major problems reading and respecting the faith of others, and your ‘disagreements’ have been little more then mockery and childish bantering.

Again, you use my opinion as a fucking reference. You asked for my opinion on why I chose my brand of Christianity over other religions. Did you even read my fucking comment? I told you I respect the people whom worship their faith and I can understand their theology, you take this as “omg Slagar is cruel and doesn’t worship other faiths, what a asshole”. For the second AND final time, re-read my comment.
________

On a side note for yet another ‘stimulating question’ on Islam and Satanism;

Islam’s theology has never been particularly a grand religion because of how broad their religion is, as a Archangel tells Muhammad he is the Prophet and that is that. Islamic history is interesting, as it is historically always been the most tolerant of religions since it has respected in even the most minor way Orthodox Christianity, Hinduism, and some Catholicism when they moved into Spain. I’ve never been a fan of them, as they have been known for every civilization they had, they tend to like having slaves play major roles in everything they do and their thirst for conquest against Europe has never placed them in good graces. However, it should be noted that I do refer the Shia Muslims, because. . . .assassins.

Satanism isn’t a religion as much as it is a heresy. The entire concept of devil worship has a long and complex history to it. Satanism to the Jews in ancient Israel was in the form of Baal worship, and in Medieval Europe, the devil was deity more associated with pagan looking gods, so thus we often view him with goat horns and legs. Satan, also known as lucifer, was cast down from Heaven and thus is a rebel against his own creator and those whom followed him and were cast were to be known as the demons. To follow Satanism would require a Abrahamic faith, but instead of worshipping god, it’s worshipping his enemy.

Feb 13, 2014 at 07:41AM EST
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@chickenhound

This time I’m going to ask you to calm down and reel it in. Please refrain from flaming Sam and keep this discussion neutral and objective in tone


@Sam

You don’t have to leave, but okay. If you really want to.

if someone says “God is real”, no one bats an eye. However, if I say “God is fake”, I am considered an asshole.

In addition to what RM is saying; there’s a different between saying “I disagree with this” and “I am right, and you can’t prove otherwise”. Both may deliver the same opinion but the delivery itself will net different results. As I said to you before, you have to work on your delivery.

Also, if I say religion is silly, people get pissed. If Chickenhound says Islam and Taoism is silly, no one bats an eye.

Thinking only a particular thing to be silly will bat less eylashes compared to calling an entire broad category silly. The internet has seen enough religious flamewars that people will be wary of those who attack all of religion at once. Doing so can be seen as hasty and misguided. Those who judge religions on a more case-by-case basis will likely get more respect for their opinions


@TSG

I’ll have to save the Blue Screen “not knowing Bible trivia =/= not following the Bible” response for tomorrow

I’m not interested in that survey. My point was that of all the most obnoxious, bigoted, and downright horrible Christians I have met all had one thing in common: They never understood nor followed the bible anywhere near the level of anyone else.

Normal Christians and non-Christians understood the bible better than they did. And it was very fact that those zealots didn’t understand the bible, was the very reason they became the crazy god-warriors they are known for.

Stupid people don’t understand the complexities of the Christian faith. They boil it down to one simple and very flawed concept: pick a side where you believe everything in a book and defend it with zeal from the other sides. Us vs Them

In fact, just about everything people find wrong with religion can be attributed to the few stupid people in it who need a better hobby and not the religion itself. People who know and understand the bible and it’s moral teachings come out decent more often than not, that I am sure.

Now, important point here: You seem to be attributing the “fundamental” label to yourself and taking offense to how I used it. I don’t fully understand why but maybe there’s a difference in our local dialect here. When I say “fundamental” I am not referring to Christians in general, or any specific denomination or yourself. I am referring to the bible bashers of which I am sure you do not identify with so don’t be offended by my terminology. I am oblivious to how you use and understand the word “fundamental” and if you and your community ever use it within a different context to describe yourselves. If so, I apologize

>inb4 “agnosticism is atheism” argument

Ugh, lets hope we never have to see one of those. That will rustle my jimmies. As an Agnostic, I take offense to the implication that I am an Athiest. I’m not an Athiest that just doesn’t know it yet. I’m not undecided about what to believe. Instead, I am very decided that there is no single correct side to take


@Vaz

Prove to me there is a god and I’ll change my view.

Eat bible, heathen! And repent!

cristens: 1
athetits: 0
Vazquez: -1


@RM & also TSG as well

Some parts of Islam are normal, others blow themselves up. Some parts of Christianity are normal, others rape little boys. Some parts of atheism are normal, others will tell people who find faith in believing their dead son is in a better place that they are idiots.

Though to be fair, atheism isn’t as guilty as the others in this example. Condescending people haven’t been quite as hazardous throughout history as bombers and rapists

I believe atheism does have statistics on it’s side when it comes to not being terrible. TSG brought up Stalin, who might be a stain on the reputation of atheism. But by comparison, the crusades soaked the reputation of Christianity entirely in blood*. Everyone’s guilty, but some more than others. Atheism gets away with less so it has that in it’s defense

  • That said, I do not like using history as leverage in these arguments. Who did more damage in ancient history is not relevant to deciding which faith is right in this modern day. Modern Christians have no accountability for the Crusades (unless you ask Al Qaeda) so bringing them up, among other history escapades are a red herring argument when trying to discuss if modern religious beliefs are validated.
Last edited Feb 13, 2014 at 08:24AM EST
Feb 13, 2014 at 08:17AM EST
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Skeletor-sm

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