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Questionable or mature tags

Last posted Aug 28, 2012 at 01:48AM EDT. Added Aug 18, 2012 at 08:14PM EDT
54 posts from 17 users

I has thinking, how about add a new feature when uploading new pictures

how about adding a check-box to mark certain pictures as questionable or mature?

Like this, when the user is browsing galleries, he will notice that some thumbnail will be black and the word “questionable” will be show, if the user decides to click, the picture will be displayed normally.(like in some websites, such as deviantart and etc)

You can also mark as questionable after you uploaded….a long long time ago.

Aug 18, 2012 at 08:14PM EDT
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While this could seem useful at first glance, the reason we lack anything like this currently, is because quite frankly you are not supposed to upload questionable content. This site attempts to stay relatively worksafe so it is generally best to follow “If it is questionable enough that you need to think about whether or not to post it, don’t post it.”

Aug 18, 2012 at 10:38PM EDT
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Although we do cover questionable content when it’s influential or widespread enough (example: Dragon Dildos, half of the other stuff that comes from 4chan), this is a family site, and we dont’ want to have NSFW content on the front page all the time. It leaves a bad impression.

Aug 18, 2012 at 10:41PM EDT
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We currently don’t allow any questionable content. The rare ones that you see in entries are marked with large NSFW tags. We try to keep KYM SFW, so we don’t even use those tags because they will be deleted right away.

Aug 18, 2012 at 10:41PM EDT
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@ rocket

“If it is questionable enough that you need to think about whether or not to post it, don’t post it.”

heres the problem, they will post anyway.

for example this picture is NSFW

http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/372846-si-no-x-no-tuviste-infancia#comments

Aug 18, 2012 at 10:55PM EDT
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El gavilán luchador wrote:

@ rocket

“If it is questionable enough that you need to think about whether or not to post it, don’t post it.”

heres the problem, they will post anyway.

for example this picture is NSFW

http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/372846-si-no-x-no-tuviste-infancia#comments

That’s not even a valid argument. It’s against site rules, plain and simple. This is why we have media moderators, to take care of things like this.

Aug 18, 2012 at 11:11PM EDT
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what about…“saucy” pictures? that can be easily found at entries that are for anyone.

Which don’t have the following warning

“Warning: This page contains material that may be considered not safe for work.”

Aug 19, 2012 at 10:18AM EDT
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There are essentially three levels of content, and existing methods for dealing with them. Items that are explicitly porn or gore are simply not allowed. Items that are borderline should be marked with an “NSFW” tag. (The tag system is there, folks; I do wish more people would use it…) Everything else is too boring to need methods to deal with or clarifying discussions like this.

Aug 20, 2012 at 02:04PM EDT
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Brucker wrote:

There are essentially three levels of content, and existing methods for dealing with them. Items that are explicitly porn or gore are simply not allowed. Items that are borderline should be marked with an “NSFW” tag. (The tag system is there, folks; I do wish more people would use it…) Everything else is too boring to need methods to deal with or clarifying discussions like this.

I believe what he means is the images uploaded to the image stream, as there is no direct way to tag those NSFW to give people the choice of watching them or not, they’ll turn up in the image stream anyway regardless of the tags you give them.

Aug 20, 2012 at 02:15PM EDT
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Why is the mlp image gallery so bogged down with questionable images? seriously every hour or two a questionable image is posted most times several. And if you say anything about it in the comments your comment getts hidden.(sorry about my poor grammer and spelling im dislexic.)

Aug 20, 2012 at 02:34PM EDT

/\
/\

this.

now…tell me…isn’t this suggestive?

artistically speaking,its a nice drawing BUT, as “family safe” speaking…its suggestive, therefore should be marked/flagged as inappropriate.

Last edited Aug 20, 2012 at 05:58PM EDT
Aug 20, 2012 at 05:32PM EDT
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I agree with thatneutraldude.I have been lurking on kym for a long time and for the last 6 months i have been continualy checking in on the mlp image gallery.The reason why is it is the best place ive found to find new mlp comics and i am sick of all the suggestive crap that is posted.There should be some one to keep checking the image gallery so none of that suggestive crap slips through. some one also should go threw the whole image gallery to remove any that has already sliped threw..(once agean sorry about my poor grammer and spelling im dislexic.)

Last edited Aug 20, 2012 at 06:55PM EDT
Aug 20, 2012 at 06:49PM EDT

The_Epic_King wrote:

I agree with thatneutraldude.I have been lurking on kym for a long time and for the last 6 months i have been continualy checking in on the mlp image gallery.The reason why is it is the best place ive found to find new mlp comics and i am sick of all the suggestive crap that is posted.There should be some one to keep checking the image gallery so none of that suggestive crap slips through. some one also should go threw the whole image gallery to remove any that has already sliped threw..(once agean sorry about my poor grammer and spelling im dislexic.)

There should be some one to keep checking the image gallery so none of that suggestive crap slips through.

Dyslexia and poor grammar aside, I don’t think you’ve thought this through completely.
 
There are three sorts of users who can edit an image.

  • Administrators/Staff
    • Basically, they’re working on entries, keeping the forum nice and fun, research, errands, living their own lives…you can’t expect any one of them to sit on one entry’s image gallery to check for suggestive images. It’s not feasible.
  • Moderators with image powers
    • I’ve wanted to add tags to images for longer than I’ve been a Forum Moderator, so I’m looking forward to making images easier to find and deleting duplicate ones. However, I am also a student and I have a job (I won’t claim to have a life as of now.) But I can’t sit on the entry and check for every image. I spend 16 hours or more each day doing something (sleeping or working/studying.) Most moderators are the same way. Not to mention we do stuff elsewhere on the site.
  • The user that uploaded it
    • They’re not stopping due to many reasons (the main one being that they don’t care.)

All of that context isn’t necessary, but I wanted to make it clear that there is no way anyone can police the FiM image gallery for every single post (which is what you’re asking. Someone would have to be on call or looking at the entry, refreshing the page to see if a suggestive image has been posted. We can’t do that.)

As for going through 87,257 images? That would be a true-to-life, full-time job, especially considering how many are being uploaded each day. It cannot be done unless you truly don’t do anything else. Oh, you wouldn’t be able to sleep either, because you’d wake up to 6-9 hours of potentially suggestive images you’d have to check on…while new images are coming in after you have awakened.
 
 
A more practical approach is to ask for a change to the uploading system, but I think that would be even worse: Having each image checked before it is allowed to be posted. For the same reasons as listed above, moderators and administrators simply don’t have the time. And even if we did, this is not a priority.

Furthermore, that would slow the documentation of memetic phenomena to a crawl. Given that the main focus of KYM is to document memetic content and it is not to be family friendly, I think the current state of things is better than having a human check every image there is.


What I’ve seen in another thread is a function sort of like karma on the forums. If you get -5 karma, then the post is buried. Perhaps if 10 users flagged an image as being NSFW, then the image would be put behind a NSFW spoiler.

But, as per anything, that requires coding. Some things are easier to code than others (i.e. seeing how many upvotes and downvotes you have on a forum post, which was implemented recently.) Some things probably are not.

This is also at risk of being abused. People have alternate accounts and any group of trolls could come in and flag any image for no reason whatsoever. That could be policed a bit easier by administration than checking every single image by seeing what users have requested that an image be removed/spoilered, but that could end up being dozens of images a day. Maybe hundreds.
 
 
Finally, we’d have to discuss what is suggestive/family friendly/porn/R34/explicit/etc. Here is a discussion (even though it’s probably not the best example) where content to be policed have been brought up. So take some points from there and see if you can make a better argument.
 
 
Personally, I will say this. Have you seen the Miku Hatsune entry’s images? Well, more of them are “suggestive” than the FiM entry’s images. The difference is that Miku is (sorta) human.

The show itself has shots of naked ponies all of the time. Putting a pony in a bikini is probably less “suggestive” than seeing a anime character in one.

So if you’re seeing images like bedroom eyes, bikinis, lingerie or the like as being suggestive (when the norm is nudity) and there is no genitalia showing, then perhaps you’re being stricter on one fictional character set than another.

And I refuse to censor Miku Hatsune :3

Last edited Aug 20, 2012 at 07:31PM EDT
Aug 20, 2012 at 07:28PM EDT

@verbose
I understand what you have said But some thing has to be done. I was just offering a suggestion.

Aug 20, 2012 at 07:51PM EDT

Its hard to get a solution that everyone can agree, right?

especially if some users don’t care about rules and stuff.

Also Verbose…its not really a censor, only the thumbnail would be blurred or in a black box,if you click over it will display normally, without black bar and censor stamps.

i am aware that these changes might not come…….well maybe if the site get updated to version 2.0(who knows right?)

Aug 20, 2012 at 08:01PM EDT
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The Epic King gives a good point, as even though this site’s meant to be work safe (almost) all of the time, there is always the good ol’ rule 34.

Sadly, just about anybody can and some will upload those kinds of images for contribution, among other reasons.


Verbose wrote:

What I’ve seen in another thread is a function sort of like karma on the forums. If you get -5 karma, then the post is buried. Perhaps if 10 users flagged an image as being NSFW, then the image would be put behind a NSFW spoiler.

Now, THIS is a good idea, IMO

Last edited Aug 21, 2012 at 04:16AM EDT
Aug 21, 2012 at 04:14AM EDT
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When it comes to R34, you will never actually get rid of it (it is a rule after all), but what you can do is find a better spot for it.
It’s simple enough. Make a second, completely NSFW gallery. Anybody who posts suggestive material in the SFW and not the NSFW gallery gets a slap on the wrist at first (encase they were oblivious to the creation of the new gallery) but later if they persist receive bans and what-not.
This way, cloppers can have their fun outside of the SFW gallery and newcomers wont get scared away when they unwillingly see this:


(BWT first thing I saw when I opened the gallery page. I’m getting sick of seeing this crap when I come for my daily dose of pony. I know it’s “technically” SFW but seriously, this is bull.)

Keeping the SFW gallery won’t really need to be enforced because, if you want to post it, do so, just in the correct gallery.
This is what I think would be the easiest to implement and enforce.
What do you guys think?

Aug 22, 2012 at 09:46PM EDT

The thing about content is that if you allow flexibility on what is and is not SFW…there are always going to be flexible boundaries…things you can bend, but not break… either we have two galleries or we have one and not the other… where people go, trouble will follow on these matters. I’m all for having a “warning” image on content that is Not Safe For Woona . At any rate, I don’t mind SOME content flexibility, but there is a point where we have to stop and say, “That’s enough.”

Aug 23, 2012 at 03:55AM EDT
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@SuperTrollz0r:

I can’t speak for the site devs, but that sounds actually much more difficult to implement and enforce. Of course, it all depends on how things get coded, but making two galleries for one entry? It just sounds wrong.

The thing is, I remember back in the ancient days of this site (2009 or so?) there used to be a much more flexible tagging system for just about everything. One of the things that was nice about the system was that a lot of things could be marked NSFW, and then the system would filter them out by default, with the option to allow suggestive content to be displayed in one’s account settings. Obviously, this fell by the wayside some time ago, but there’s some real practicality to such a system.

Speaking as a person who understands that the nature of many memes is such that you can’t really discuss them without some amount of suggestive text and/or pictures, AND as a person who has two young daughters who are fans of MLP:FiM who hopes that they never stumble across our image galleries, I do really feel that something ought to be done to keep the site fun for people of all maturity levels.

Currently, the first 40 images in the MLP picture gallery that come up show:

  • Three of a sexually suggestive nature,
  • Two containing a level of violence not extreme for the Internet, but enough to be shocking to a child who happened across this site unwittingly,
  • Two containing inappropriate language.

Most likely, I was lucky to find only that much trouble. Perhaps one of the more important issues is what a non-mod user can do about such things: nothing whatsoever.

Actually, that’s not technically true, but it might as well be: the one thing a non-mod user can do about an image is click on the “Claim Authorship” button, which actually leads to a multipurpose form which includes “Content Issue” as an option. I don’t know who gets these messages, though, nor how often they are checked.

Another issue that’s related but only tangentially is the content of the entry itself. While the entry is relatively clean overall, once again looking at it through the lens of a parent of two nine-year-old MLP fans, stuff like this

gives me pause. But maybe that should make me rethink the whole issue? After all, as nine-year-olds, my kids don’t use the Internet unsupervised, and maybe responsible parents should know as I do that while KYM is a much cleaner site than a lot of what’s out there, the “target demographic” of this site is not young children. We’re only “family-friendly” relative to sites like 4chan and Encyclopædia Dramatica (…Holy crap; is that a ponified meatspin gif? Where’s the eyebleach?!), but that’s not saying much.

Aug 23, 2012 at 07:48AM EDT
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not to mention there should be stricter rules on the chat ( I just got out of a huge flame war with a bunch of people that suport zoophilia!) because thye chat can get realy bad.

Aug 23, 2012 at 10:42AM EDT

If we had a flagging system that allowed people to tag images (or videos) as “suggestive” or “NSFW” with ease, then the public would decide what was suggestive or not. By default, image galleries would omit these posts, but by changing settings, you could view ALL images. This would help grade schoolers from stumbling across teh naughty, yet let those comfortable with “Mature content” carry on.

WOULD THIS BE IMPOSSIBLE TO CODE?

Aug 23, 2012 at 10:54AM EDT
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The_Epic_King wrote:

not to mention there should be stricter rules on the chat ( I just got out of a huge flame war with a bunch of people that suport zoophilia!) because thye chat can get realy bad.

Stricter rules on that chat is for another thread… keep it within the thread topic.
As for tagging questionable/mature items… its more of a saying that we’re keeping the mature stuff out on other sites… questionable material sounds like a more compromisable thing that can be done for this website. Let’s not forget that this site does not support porn or gore unless absolutely vital to meme research discussions and accompanied by a clear [NSFW] Warning label… For 90% of things, those are negated by that one rule alone.

Aug 23, 2012 at 04:27PM EDT
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Brucker wrote:

After all, as nine-year-olds, my kids don’t use the Internet unsupervised, and maybe responsible parents should know as I do that while KYM is a much cleaner site than a lot of what’s out there, the “target demographic” of this site is not young children. We’re only “family-friendly” relative to sites like 4chan and Encyclopædia Dramatica (…Holy crap; is that a ponified meatspin gif? Where’s the eyebleach?!), but that’s not saying much.

Cheezburger’s Terms of Service and Use state that you affirm you’re over the age of 13 when visiting the site. KYM being a part of Cheezburger, I think you can confirm we can use that as a guideline here. So basically, your 9 year olds shouldn’t even visit Cheezburger websites.

But let’s take 14 as a minimum. So for entries that aren’t tagged “NSFW”, we can say the minimal age actually visiting the page is 14. So yes, several stuff uploaded to the MLP entry is not made for a 14 year old.


Brucker wrote:

The thing is, I remember back in the ancient days of this site (2009 or so?) there used to be a much more flexible tagging system for just about everything. One of the things that was nice about the system was that a lot of things could be marked NSFW, and then the system would filter them out by default, with the option to allow suggestive content to be displayed in one’s account settings. Obviously, this fell by the wayside some time ago, but there’s some real practicality to such a system.

This indicates that it is possible. But I don’t know how much coding it would require with the current KYM. But I think a suggestion that has been made before here, and which I can see working out, is something like the following:


(I shopped a small checkbox in at the bottom)

Of course, similar with the warning you get for NSFW tagged entries, you can disable/enable this in your account settings. Of course, spoiler or not, the rules for no porn/gore will still have to be applied with this, allowing users to spoiler images can’t become an excuse to upload explicit content. We can also work out something like this with the general image gallery. We currently have a button to remove all images in MLP entries, but I can see a button for NSFW entries work out too.

But once again, I don’t know how much coding this requires.

I’m also not really a 100% fan of this idea. Simply because there’s a risk involved. Of course, we do allow questionable content to be uploaded (within certain borders). But I fear people will see a spoiler function as an excuse to upload even more. We have asked certain users in the past to lower their daily uploads a bit, as there were users who did nothing more than uploading questionable content, it was almost like a contest of who could upload the best borderline material. If we get a spoiler system, users like that have free game.

But that actually brings me to another point. What entry, besides the MLP entry, has this issue? There is simply a small group of users who upload 90% of the questionable content in the MLP gallery. Count those out, and the gallery is just as save as any other subculture entry. I rather just ask them all to take some discretion into their uploads, telling them to not upload NSFW only, instead of asking James to code such a system for such a small group. If they don’t listen, we might have to take consequenses. Their uploads aren’t breaking the porn rule, but they’re not really creating a welcoming atmosphere either, which is also a rule.


The_Epic_King wrote:

not to mention there should be stricter rules on the chat ( I just got out of a huge flame war with a bunch of people that suport zoophilia!) because thye chat can get realy bad.

May I ask what “chat” you’re talking about? The only “chat” this site has is the IRC, and I don’t remember seeing you there. If you mean a comment section, that’s not a chat.

Last edited Aug 23, 2012 at 05:43PM EDT
Aug 23, 2012 at 05:21PM EDT
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two things RandomMan:

1)unfortunately most people don’t read the rules or just ignore.

2) actually….i may be not an expert..but its possible to add that checkbox…if you are using the right tool(dreamweaver anyone)

Aug 23, 2012 at 05:35PM EDT
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El gavilán luchador wrote:

two things RandomMan:

1)unfortunately most people don’t read the rules or just ignore.

2) actually….i may be not an expert..but its possible to add that checkbox…if you are using the right tool(dreamweaver anyone)

The rules are there to read. If people choose to ignore them, then the possible consequenses coming along with that is their problem as well, not mine. We can’t take “not having read the rules” into consideration when dealing with those that broke them, it’s too much of an excuse.

Aug 23, 2012 at 05:39PM EDT
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RandomMan wrote:

Cheezburger’s Terms of Service and Use state that you affirm you’re over the age of 13 when visiting the site. KYM being a part of Cheezburger, I think you can confirm we can use that as a guideline here. So basically, your 9 year olds shouldn’t even visit Cheezburger websites.

Yeah, 13 sounds like a pretty reasonable age; not an adult, but not really quite a child either. At such an age, a person browsing the site might still find some content shocking, but should be mature enough to respond in a way that’s appropriate for them.

The thing is, I know there are actually a lot of memes they will find entertaining, but I download samples to show them later rather than pulling up whole image galleries. And it’s not just about porn; I know my daughters are going to love this:

But for reasons many won’t understand, I don’t want my daughters seeing this:

Parenting is hard, dude…

Aug 23, 2012 at 08:35PM EDT
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13 sounds like a pretty reasonable age indeed, but…how i will know if the user if actually 13 years or older OR if he/she is younger?

i mean its easy to lie in the Internet to get access to “stuff” that kids supposedly aren’t allowed.

its silly, but its the truth.

Aug 23, 2012 at 08:57PM EDT
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thatneutraldude wrote:

13 sounds like a pretty reasonable age indeed, but…how i will know if the user if actually 13 years or older OR if he/she is younger?

i mean its easy to lie in the Internet to get access to “stuff” that kids supposedly aren’t allowed.

its silly, but its the truth.

If they are below that age, they are guilty of ignoring the terms of service and use. Thus the parents did a bad job at supervising their kids when they’re on the internet. Responsibility is with the parents at that point, not us, as we have it written down that they shouldn’t visit the site.

Last edited Aug 23, 2012 at 09:02PM EDT
Aug 23, 2012 at 09:01PM EDT
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Yeah i know that,but here’s the thing, most users who visit the site won’t read the rules because not everyone will join,so for their eyes…the site is for everyone.ignoring the matter if you are kid or an adult.

(i know my point is missing something…but its hard to explain)

Aug 23, 2012 at 09:37PM EDT
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FYI long post is long, 3 main points are at the bottom

re:coding, James is the only developer that works on the site..that’s just something to keep in mind when suggesting stuff. He has a list of dev-related things that he needs to do outside of suggestions, too. KYM staff is currently 4 people and there are only so many hours in a day.

I know NSFW content affects how the site is rated for advertisers. I don’t know too much about the advertiser rating thing other than I know it exists and nsfw content affects it. There are certain words we can’t use on the front page because of that.

My personal stance on this whole thing is that I view KYM as an academic resource. I guess the easiest thing to compare it to is Wikipedia. While there are examples of saucy material on Wikipedia, it’s not meant for fapping. You don’t go to the wikipedia page for stuff to add to your spank bank. (do people use that term anymore? am i dating myself? anyway.) I don’t think people should come to KYM for fap material, we’re not that kind of site. I’ve spoken in a class and at a conference where I’ve used the MLP entry as an example -- as someone speaking in front of a large group of 30-60 year old librarians, the last thing I wanted to see was a sexy My Little Pony image while trying to explain the subculture.

On that note, let’s take a look at the top voted pics in the Rule 34 gallery. Outside of these two anime makeout pics, most of these are funny: toothbrushes, japanese characters, the giant truck with a hole that looks like a fleshlight, a winnie the pooh gif and a flower looking at a video of a bee.

This reinforces my theory of Wikipedia-style examples: these images aren’t made to be fap material (at least to your average person, I know someone is probably fapping to those toothbrushes), and someone isn’t visting this gallery for that sole purpose.

I’d like to reiterate random’s point:

But that actually brings me to another point. What entry, besides the MLP entry, has this issue? There is simply a small group of users who upload 90% of the questionable content in the MLP gallery. Count those out, and the gallery is just as save as any other subculture entry. I rather just ask them all to take some discretion into their uploads, telling them to not upload NSFW only, instead of asking James to code such a system for such a small group. If they don’t listen, we might have to take consequenses. Their uploads aren’t breaking the porn rule, but they’re not really creating a welcoming atmosphere either, which is also a rule.

While I appreciate that people love KYM and want to contribute, this really isn’t the place for that type of content. There’s a time and a place for everything, even sexy ponies dressed up in bondage gear, but I don’t think that place is KYM. Yeah, some of the art on them is fantastic but there are so many fantastic artists. The site is an archive, something I hope will help people gain a greater understanding of this ever-changing culture.

A casual browser of the internet won’t always understand Rule 34 and IMO, there’s no reason they have to. Let’s think about this scenario: A mom finds out her son is watching MLP. She has no idea why, so she googles something to the extent of “my son is watching my little pony.” A few articles about “bronies” pop up, so she googles that. She goes to the Bronies page, when she sees the main entry for MLP. Okay cool. So she reads it, finally gets down to the bottom, where she is greeted with the most recent images uploaded to the gallery. Let’s just say these images are similar to bondage pony linked earlier in the thread. As a mom of a young teenage son, she has the right to not want her child associated with these types of things if she sees stuff like that.

KYM might be a person’s first interaction with internet culture. Yes, we are a fun awesome site for those heavily involved with the culture, but a good amount of the people who come here are coming here from searching for something they saw somewhere else on the web and don’t understand. We have to keep that in mind, too. Yes, encyclopedias have entries for dirty things and illustrations to explain them, but they’re not meant to be a source for people who want to look at those kinds of things.

tl;dr #1 my Grandma LOVES KYM. She has no idea what half of this stuff is, but she likes the animal entries and videos. We keep porn/gore/etc stuff like that off the site for all the grandmas of the world that are confused by what they read on Facebook or by what someone they love shared with them.

It’s not like they don’t know that porn exists, but it’s not what they expect to see when they’re looking for a definition. My grandma doesn’t want to think that her baby has to delete sexy ponies off the site and I don’t want her to think of me having to look at that kind of thing.

tl;dr #2 Do you go to Wikipedia to fap or do your homework?

tl;dr #3 All of these opinions are mine and not of any of the other admins, mods, or anyone that employs me. Or my cat, as I asked her and she just stared at me blankly.

Last edited Aug 23, 2012 at 10:49PM EDT
Aug 23, 2012 at 10:43PM EDT
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The spoiler checkbox and idea suggested earlier by RandomMan reminded me of deviantART’s ‘mature content’ checkboxes.

Since art is art, there can be a lot of that on deviantART but here, there shouldn’t be at all, really.

Aug 24, 2012 at 02:48AM EDT
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I like this check box idea. Images check-boxed shouldn’t even show up unless a checkbox allowing mature content is checked on the client side.

I think that could work.

The hard thing is making it idiot proof.

First, the box on the client side should be by default unchecked (like how Google safe-search is by default turned on).

Secondly, you need to make sure that up-loaders remember to spoiler the image. Maybe make the box really big and attention grabbing?

The spoiler checkbox and idea suggested earlier by RandomMan reminded me of deviantART’s ‘mature content’ checkboxes.
Since art is art, there can be a lot of that on deviantART but here, there shouldn’t be at all, really.

It’s rule 34, there is nothing we can do.

Aug 24, 2012 at 05:36PM EDT

“If it exists, there is porn of it.”

As long as MLP is a thing, there will be cloppers. As long as there are cloppers, there will be NSFW material posted here. Fighting it directly would be a losing battle (not to mention the hypocritical implications involved when bronies try to ostracize other bronies because they’re “different”).

I wasn’t saying give up though. Things need to be done.

But we all need to eventually accept it’s existence.

Aug 24, 2012 at 06:24PM EDT

…did you even read my post SuperTrollz0r?

Let’s take a look at the top voted pics in the Rule 34 gallery. Outside of these two anime makeout pics, most of these are funny: toothbrushes, japanese characters, the giant truck with a hole that looks like a fleshlight, a winnie the pooh gif and a flower looking at a video of a bee.
This reinforces my theory of Wikipedia-style examples: these images aren’t made to be fap material (at least to your average person, I know someone is probably fapping to those toothbrushes), and someone isn’t visting this gallery for that sole purpose.

KYM might be a person’s first interaction with internet culture. Yes, we are a fun awesome site for those heavily involved with the culture, but a good amount of the people who come here are coming here from searching for something they saw somewhere else on the web and don’t understand. We have to keep that in mind, too. Yes, encyclopedias have entries for dirty things and illustrations to explain them, but they’re not meant to be a source for people who want to look at those kinds of things.

Last edited Aug 24, 2012 at 06:59PM EDT
Aug 24, 2012 at 06:59PM EDT
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Well, now I feel stupid. Amanda, I tl;dr’d your comment, and then proceeded to misread it.

Sorry

I see your point.

The problem is, with the acceptance of that point of view. We’re back to square-one. What do we do? If we don’t spoiler the images, then what? I know you see the site as purely academic but Joe Schmoe might decide to upload very suggestive material, and there is nothing we can (feasibly, and over the long run) do about it.

tl;dr 1 Amanda, what do you suppose we do (I’m not being sarcastic nor snarky)?

(Time to play Devil’s advocate)

The whole clopping thing is a legitimate, even if not glamorous, part of the community, and thus, the sub-culture. If you want to keep the site site “academic”, wouldn’t that imply a lack of bias? And to remove said bias, wouldn’t that imply the removal of censorship? (IE If you really want the site to be a true learning tool, you can’t only decide to teach what you want to teach. Do people go to Wikipedia for facts or opinionated facts?)

/Devil’s Advocate

tl;dr 2 If we start censoring things to our opinions, the site loses it’s academic value, which we so desperately strive to uphold.

The whole clopper thing, even if ugly, can’t just be swept under the rug (at-least without becoming hypocritical of your very own stance). The MLP R34 community is practically a subculture of its own. I don’t think the generic idea of R34 holds up in this case (IE your toothbrush example. That was made as a joke (as most R34 is) but the MLP R34 community is all too serious.)

(BTW I’m not advocating anything, I’m just trying to remain unbiased and see this situation from all standing-points. Confound this INTJ mind, it drives me to think and judge things from a universal standpoint.)

tl;dr 3 The R34 situation with ponies is unique; hence, we haven’t solved it yet and it deserves special treatment (Ergo, the creation of this thread.)

From the R34 community’s standpoint, making them just go away is unacceptable. From a academic’s standpoint, you can both argue for, and against R34 even being here at all. From the standpoint of a brony neutral to the matter (me personally), I don’t hate nor like the R34, yet I feel, to give bronies an overall better name, it probably is best to kinda “keep it hidden” from “casuals” (this is why I felt the spoiler idea was the most fair and best choice overall).

Finally, I want to point out that, even if graphic, some of the most creative and well done things to ever come out of the brony community are of explicit nature. Explicit nature aside (not just sexually explicit, but explicit for all reasons and rationals), It would be terribly unfair to those artists to pretend their work didn’t exist (I’ve seen some great stuff (from an art critique point of view) come out of the “Princess Molestia” blog)

*It should be noted that the MLP gallery has become not just a place for people to learn what a meme is (like other galleries) but has become a place to post and discus art from all over the fandom (IE the gallery has to be treated differently from other galleries)

tl;dr 4 Though I don’t advocate coming to KYM to fap, completely removing the explicit material from the MLP gallery would be like removing Michelangelo’s “David” from the Florence Cathedral because it’s too “uncouth”. Even if explicit, it’s a masterpiece and a perfect example of the pinnacle of art from it’s time.

Final verdict A lot of the R34 pieces are good enough to deserve to be documented, regardless of what anybody personally feels about them. Though, with that said, I still believe that it is for the best that it be spoiler-ed, or somehow hidden. People (regardless of their preference to R34) still won’t come to KYM to fap, but (if they are into that stuff) will use KYM as a place to find sources and learn (as as they currently do and regardless of what they want to learn about).

To conclude, I stand by RandomMan’s idea of spoilers

/ginormous wall of text

If you haven’t figured this out by now about me, I love to debate. I do so in an odd way though. Because I try to see things objectively, I’ll sometimes argue multiple (and sometimes even clashing) points at the same time (this being very obvious in my posts and how many of these “( )” I use all over the place). In reality, this is actually really effective in making sure you do the “correct” thing. But the side effect is that I have a tendency of driving everyone (including myself) mad. I probably sound like Willy Wonka when I’m talking, crazy (yet knowledgeable)
I also relish any chance I get to take advantage of my expansive vocabulary. I’m sorry if for some reason it may bother people, but you can’t imagine how it feels to have an IQ of 138 and be surrounded by ignoramuses constantly screaming “LOL UR MOM LOL I LE TRoll u XDXD!!!!11!!!1!!”. It pains me greatly (Ergo, I don’t have a Facebook).
The fact that you read this much flatters me. It also shows a certain level of caring in your nature. here:


you deserve a gold star. It’s people like you who give me faith in humanity. (or you were just bored)

Aug 25, 2012 at 01:49AM EDT

量子 Meme wrote:

That’s loser talk, Trollz0r.

…My point with that was…

He seemed to be saying there’s nothing we could do, however there clearly is, as well as the fact he didn’t properly read Amanda’s post.

Aug 25, 2012 at 10:40AM EDT
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@amandab:
“dating myself”? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

@thread:
I keep feeling like it’s an annoying thing whenever we have to single out the brony community and make a special rule for them. As I’ve said before, there are some things like the “Hide Ponies” button that imply both that bronies are the biggest nuisance on KYM (which may be true from time to time) and that it’s unlikely there will ever be a fandom with the same problems. Sure, these days you can’t go much of anywhere on the site without seeing MLP material, but there were times before that when it was Pokemon or Touhou, and even Minecraft has has spurts of dominance over the site. I think that the problems presented by the bronies should always have been a learning opportunity for admins and mods to figure out how to deal with a near-rabid fandom.

That being said, and despite my previous comments about the difficulty of maintaining two galleries for a single entry, there may be something to it. In particular, I always hear talk about “clopping” which seemed from context to imply, er, certain reactions by some bronies towards questionable MLP fan-made art. Is there an entry for “clopping”? If there is, could we legitimately migrate questionable images from the MLP gallery to the other gallery, and thus try to make the main entry’s gallery be less controversial.

Aug 25, 2012 at 05:40PM EDT
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@Brucker

There is one. However, that entry focusses on the usage of clopping as a slang term, not as a dumping ground for NSFW content. Using that entry to allow bronies to upload NSFW content not only makes no sense imo, but also doesn’t match with the content of the entry.


But I will repeat what I said before, as I don’t think many heard it. I disagree with the spoiler function. For the following reasons:

  • It’s basically only the main MLP entry that is causing trouble. Thus such a feature is overkill.
  • 90% of the NSFW content on that entry is uploaded by 3-5 users. I rather just ask/warn those users to hold back the uploading instead. So again, the feature is overkill.
  • I hate to have James code such a feature when it’s basically just overkill.
  • The function can serve as an excuse for those that upload NSFW content to upload more and we risk that it will only increase the amount of NSFW content. Sites that allow spoilers feature more NSFW content than KYM. The users that upload NSFW content basically have free game to upload as much as they want when we get a spoiler feature, I rather not give that to them.

SuperTrollz0r wrote:

The whole clopping thing is a legitimate, even if not glamorous, part of the community, and thus, the sub-culture. If you want to keep the site site “academic”, wouldn’t that imply a lack of bias? And to remove said bias, wouldn’t that imply the removal of censorship? (IE If you really want the site to be a true learning tool, you can’t only decide to teach what you want to teach. Do people go to Wikipedia for facts or opinionated facts?)

But to keep the information present in the article objective and fact-based, we don’t need to constantly add NSFW content. Content like that is part of every fandom, yet only the MLP entry is suffering from a bit larger amounts. So I’ll repeat what I said before: I rather just ask/warn the small group of users responsible to take it down a few notches. Your Wiki argument is also somewhat invalid. I went to the Wiki page for the Red Light District, there was not a single saucy pic to be found.

The MLP R34 community is practically a subculture of its own.

MLP is currently huge, simple as that. Bigger fandom = more amounts of art being produced. Which of course means that there will be more NSFW content as well. But percentage wise towards the entire fandom, it doesn’t differ from other fandoms like Korra and Pokemon. Calling the R34 section of the MLP fandom a subculture on its own is a really bad definition.

We are not twentypercentcooler or r/clopclop. You seem to forget that we’re not an image hosting site, but an encyclopedia describing internet phenomena and stuff surrounding that. The image and video galleries back up the information and give examples, but they’re not the main source of information.

I never said the uploading of the questionable content had to be stopped, it’s not rulebreaking (somewhat) and still related to the entry. But the amount in which they are uploaded plus some of the images are definitely not fit for a SFW article. The article does not benefit in any way from this.

Last edited Aug 25, 2012 at 06:56PM EDT
Aug 25, 2012 at 06:54PM EDT
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RandomMan wrote:

You seem to forget that we’re not an image hosting site, but an encyclopedia describing internet phenomena and stuff surrounding that. The image and video galleries back up the information and give examples, but they’re not the main source of information.

This is another question I sometimes wonder about when it come to a lot of entries on the site, If we’re meant to function like a reference work (which it has always been said that we are) then what does that imply about our image galleries?

A definition in a dictionary might have a single picture, rarely more, quite often less.

An entry in an encyclopedia has a lot of pictures, but not a huge amount, largely selected to give just enough flavor to the article to help with understanding.

An entry in KYM apparently needs to hold every piece of photographic evidence that exists in the entire world.

Quite some time back, I was helping put together and edit Le Monsieur Tout Nu for which I ended up loading about 27 pictures. I felt like maybe those 27 were an overkill since, after all, like most articles on KYM, there were links to the communities that were making these pics. When does the amount of uploaded pictures to the MLP:FiM entry become overkill? (By the time most of you read this, the number of MLP pictures uploaded will have hit 89k.) Here, let’s look at a recent upload:

Aww, isn’t that cute? Now tell me exactly what this picture is supposed to do to enlighten me concerning the nature of MLP and/or its fandom? And that’s certainly a question that could be asked of hundreds of other entries, especially the advice animal types. I doubt there exists an “advice animal” style meme that couldn’t be fully explained with less than half a dozen examples, yet how many of them have over a hundred examples uploaded?

Maybe I didn’t think of it so much because I’ve been a big fan of ED for a while, and they certainly don’t have much in the way of guidelines for amount of content any more than they do for friendliness of content.

As you said, we’re not an image hosting site, and maybe we should consider reminding people of that. Every one of us might want to evaluate what this means with respect to our own fandoms compared to ones in which we’re not involved. I’ve uploaded plenty of images to Katawa Shoujo myself, and while I see that describing a fandom probably takes more examples of fan art than a simple image macro, the current 3k images in that gallery surely include hundreds of pictures that serve no purpose in helping understand the game, its cultural impact, or the in-jokes that fans have spawned. Oh, and of course a lot of those pictures are borderline unacceptable, too. I just tend to overlook such things because I’m a Katawa Shoubro er, Katawa Shonen? no, uh just a fan, unlike with MLP.

Aug 25, 2012 at 08:05PM EDT
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Understood

I hope you saw the part where I said

Time to play Devil’s advocate"

There was a reason I put that there. I was trying to see things from a clopper’s perspective. This whole thing seemed rather unfair without an actual clopper here to defend themselves and give their own argument (there is a reason I don’t watch Fox News).
But to keep the information present in the article objective and fact-based, we don’t need to constantly add NSFW content.

I’ll say this again, I’m not advocating dumping huge amounts of porn for the hell of it. That’s not what I said.

Though I don’t advocate coming to KYM to fap, completely removing the explicit material from the MLP gallery would be like removing Michelangelo’s “David” from the Florence Cathedral because it’s too “uncouth”. Even if explicit, it’s a masterpiece and a perfect example of the pinnacle of art from it’s time.

What I was saying is that, many amazing pieces of art have come out of the brony community. Some of them happen to be NSFW. Why do they then not deserve to be archived along side the others (I’m playing devils advocate again, don’t hate me)?

You seem to forget that we’re not an image hosting site, but an encyclopedia describing internet phenomena and stuff surrounding that. The image and video galleries back up the information and give examples, but they’re not the main source of information.

It should be noted that even though the MLP gallery was not intended to become an archive, with almost 100,000 images total, and growing daily, it might need to be treated as such. Most other galleries have around 1000 images in comparison. Treating both these cases the same would be foolhardy at best.

Your Wiki argument is also somewhat invalid. I went to the Wiki page for the Red Light District, there was not a single saucy pic to be found.

Yes, but what you do get are images of some of the most famous “Red Light Districts” in the world. Just as the MLP gallery has become an archive for all the best MLP related art in the world. If you searched Wikipedia for “Vagina”, the first thing you see is a picture of a vagina, uncensored, and even labeled. We’re getting of on a tangent but the moral of what I was trying to say (while being a Devils Advocate) was that, we need to stay unbiased in general.

Calling the R34 section of the MLP fandom a subculture on its own is a really bad definition.

Then a subculture of a subculture? unless I’m reading the definition of “subculture” wrong, I don’t see how that was incorrect. I wasn’t saying it was an “independent” subculture at all, just a big piece of the brony fandom…but I’m going off on a tangent again.

I never said the uploading of the questionable content had to be stopped, it’s not rulebreaking (somewhat) and still related to the entry. But the amount in which they are uploaded plus some of the images are definitely not fit for a SFW article. The article does not benefit in any way from this.

I agree completely with this. The MLP gallery is not a porn dump. The amount of NSFW content uploaded should be small, deserving of it’s upload based on it’s quality, and subsequently spoilered. The gallery is good the way it is, just that the images that are suggestive should be spoilered, that’s all that needs to be done.

I don’t know how hard it is to code such a thing, so if this is an impossible task, please save me the embarrassment and tell me so. this whole time I was kinda going on the assumption that it wouldn’t be that hard.

Aug 25, 2012 at 08:25PM EDT

suddenly its only focused on one entry.

isn’t this thread suppose to create a solution for questionable content for several entries(existent and future entries?)

Aug 25, 2012 at 09:07PM EDT
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I think i know why member are using ponies as examples.

simple…because if they use for instance…furries as example,their point will be invalid because that entry already shows a sign of warning.

“Warning: This page contains material that may be considered not safe for work.”

And in other several entries.

and the mods already handle pretty well NSFW pictures.

…! i think i got a solution for this particular entry.

Aug 25, 2012 at 09:37PM EDT
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El gavilán luchador wrote:

suddenly its only focused on one entry.

isn’t this thread suppose to create a solution for questionable content for several entries(existent and future entries?)

You and I both know that the beneficial factor of solving this for “all entries” was more of an excuse to fix the problem of questionable uploads that is only present in the MLP entry.

Aug 25, 2012 at 09:40PM EDT
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El gavilán luchador wrote:

Sorry, but no.

its an overall matter, MLP was just the trigger for it.

Care to give me some examples of other non NSFW-tagged entries that suffer from this?

When this problem is only present on the MLP entry, the only users that complain about it and of who I and other mods receive complaints from about this are bronies who often visit the MLP gallery, plus those bronies are the only ones actually interested in fixing this (besides mods), it’s simple math.

I’m not denying it’s a problem, but you must face that once outside the MLP entry, it’s minimal.

Last edited Aug 25, 2012 at 10:16PM EDT
Aug 25, 2012 at 10:02PM EDT
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i can see that since i want to help too, i mean i am tired of these kind of pics and raids.

as examples..well….i looked all over with and……i actually found it,but these are deadpool(doesn’t count).

i could state pokemon, but it was already cleaned up and some pisc where already moved to sub entries….so…yeah…couldn’t find it.

I guess i lost my point

Aug 25, 2012 at 10:22PM EDT
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RandomMan wrote:

Care to give me some examples of other non NSFW-tagged entries that suffer from this?

Miku Hatsune Examples:

Katawa Shoujo Examples:

Also, Scarlett Johansson leaked nudes is not marked NSFW, do I really need to bring examples? (I probably should just mark it. Maybe Katawa Shoujo as well just on principle.)

Last edited Aug 26, 2012 at 02:15AM EDT
Aug 26, 2012 at 12:59AM EDT
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Ah, another mysterious downvote with no reason given. Clearly somebody:

A – doesn’t like me answering questions posed to others.
B – is unhappy that I implied these photos are inappropriate.
C – is scandalized that I didn’t use spoiler tags.
D – is disappointed I didn’t post Scarlett Johansson pics.
E – liked what I posted but hit the wrong button.

You know, one of those; so it’s very narrowed down.

Thanks Pimp-chan, I wasn’t sure if I needed them, but I also for got how to use them. Were you the downvoter because

F – (Chris) had to do more work cleaning up after me?

Last edited Aug 26, 2012 at 02:20AM EDT
Aug 26, 2012 at 02:18AM EDT
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Skeletor-sm

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