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Hello guys. In between newsfeed and viral videos you enjoy watching, I'm making this thread to start, I hope, a somewhat serious debate among users, but also mods and members of the staff, who knows.
InB4 tl;dr, this can be quite long.

No, I don't have any link to offer. This is not based on any article or studies published online, even if some may exist, I don't know.
I bet you'd rather read Sweatie quoting AlJazeera with his neo-con mind, HoH making us laugh while being serious about her neo-nazi antics, that silly HoH, Captain_Blubber coming back for a new CBC or Troll_King doing what he does best.

Anyway, there is a growing problem on KYM since quite a moment now. Oh well, if we had to consider everything inside the spectrum, there are actually many "problems", ranging from websites bugs, to the overall community's attitude towards newcomers and each others but I'm sure James is doing his best, the same way staff members and us mods are here to help and… well.. moderate.

Now, the main core of my post: People that create memes.

When I first arrived here, I shared the same thought as many of you for a long time. Yes, true memes, according to our FAQ, general explanation and state of mind, happen to exist genuinely, one might say naturally or organically. By that, what is implied is that it becomes a meme when a piece of media gets lot of attention, becomes heavily parodied enough (ect…) by people who may not be the creator or closely related to him in the first place. If it happens, then it will be seen as forcing (when it comes to celebrity gain) or astroturf (when affiliated to a brand or trademark in order to sell their good). It seem obvious fairly enough and I won't add more on the "is it a meme because you declare it or do you declare it because it is a meme" Philosoraptor moment.

HOWEVER, saying "you don't make memes!" or "people don't create memes, they happen naturally" is a very big mistake. I'm not talking about the many attempts to blatantly force/astroturf something, in which very few have succeeded (Fuck Yeah Seaking, Girugamesh, Old Spice), no, I'm talking about Internet artists and creators and not only the Deviant Arts ones.

There are people who have left their fingerprint into the makings of memes. Kajetokun, for example, may have not foreseen the success of Over9000 but he knew, afterwards, that, with his others creations, he would gain a strong following, strong enough to be fairly influential within the Youtube Poop community.
We can talk about Weebl and his songs as well, or any influential artist who, because of his following, was at the birth of a meme for that matter. You would also be amazed by the lot of people/website popularizing things partly for the purpose of "crafting" a meme (HONK HONK HORSEMANING CONTROVERSY).
There are artists at the beginning of the meme scheme who create contents. Their content may or may not become memes but when they do, there are still here, either profiting of the opportunity or not caring at all.

"You don't create memes", then, isn't an actual basis in favor of rejecting a meme entry. It doesn't work that way anyway. If someone comes in to say "I created that meme, here is how and why" in a relatively well-written entry, we won't deadpool it for sure. Okay, I must admit it didn't happen that much compared to the tons of "I made that picture lol" kind of crap entries.

I'll just say that, when you're red-handed at trying to force a meme or you don't try to hide your intent, it won't become one because of a backslash. I you don't get caught, it may become what I would call a semi-fabricated meme. They are first made specifically to launch a trend and finally become a meme when more people jump in, seduced by it. It's something that is mostly enclosed to image based memes such as exploitables/macros and, from what I've seen, they don't last that long for most of them.

I don't like them, even when they are very funny, because, to me, they "betray" the initial meaning of a meme. But whatever.

(Part 2)

What make artists consider to try their hands at creating memes? Fame? Money? Both?
Well, I'm going to talk about Tom Rose here.
Tom Rose tried to force two of his creations on KYM. Innocent until proven guilty, he said that he didn't know the true purpose of KYM and thought that it was a place to advertise his art.

Well, I don't believe him but that's not the point here. He said something interesting. He said that the Internet has become a cesspool of people trying to profit of its culture by joining Internet craze. "Like KYM TROLOLO!" may spew an anti-KYM troll. That's true, the cesspool thing not the anti-KYM propaganda.

I don't think Tom Rose deserves to be trolled that much for what he did though. You know, I thought that he didn't create that much stuff but boy was I wrong. 1000 followers on twitter?. Writing articles for a website since early 2010?.
He daily shares content on BuzzFeed and participated to other valid memes.
Admittedly, he, once more, is promoting another one of his Advice Dog Variant creation as a meme on BuzzFeed (sigh) but still…

Maybe he was just sharing his own art. Many of our users have Deviant Art accounts. Some of us surely have created OC on imageboards or more mainstream sites.
That doesn't forgive him at all, of course, but it may add a little layer of outlook on the "what" and "why".

Discuss this as you please.

I did read it, but generally these images are pretty much everything I have to say anyways.

Okay. I read through that (fucking huge) wall of text, and I think I understand what you're trying to say.

My opinion on Forced Memes is this: It doesn't really matter whether they are forced or not (even though it's preferable that they aren't), as long as they become popular. If something becomes a popular meme or succesful, it doesn't really matter whether if it was forced or not. And yes, that still applies to Advice Dog memes. Trying to force them on here though? Good god no.

And what with the long list of rules on the side of a page when you create a meme entry, I somehow doubt he didn't realise what he was doing wrong. And that ego! Jeez.

That's quite an amount of text you got there.

Tomberry wrote:

“You don’t create memes”, then, isn’t an actualy basis in favor of rejecting a meme entry. It doesn’t work that way anyway. If someone comes in to say “I created that meme, here is how and why” in a relatively well-written entry, we won’t deadpool it for sure. Okay, I must admit it didn’t happen that much compared to the tons of “I made that picture lol” kind of crap entries.

Regarding the well-written part: If someone makes an entry for something he makes, he does have to bring good arguments. Also the date when the person started the meme is important. No mather how good the arguments are, if the meme is just a day old and the spread is still minimal, it will just look like advertisement. Of course there are cases with memes that become popular withing a few days, but many of these originated on 4chan and it was never the intention of the OC to make it a meme.

That's also where Tom Rose went wrong. His "Dead Celebrity Anagrams" and other 2 articles were obviously attempts to advertise for his blog, maybe even attempts to create a meme. He might not know what KYM is for, but then he wouldn't create 2 entries for the same advice animal spinoff he created. But going back to the previous paragraph, he made the entry too early, the spread was still too minimal. If he waited a month to see if the meme spread some more and then create the entry he might get a better change. He could use himself for knowledge on the origin and if people noticed that it gained some spread, the entry could gain some attention.

The trolling he received was kinda his own fault. After 3 attempts to promote his blog he kinda had it coming. Then he gave those reactions on the Dead Celebrity Anagrams entry, this only fed the trolls. He also chose the wrong place to try and start a meme.

But going back to "forced" memes. Of course some memes are forced, but it's how it's brought that decides the outcome. I use Sweatie's Holeguy as an example. That image actually has the text "I'm a new meme." standing below it. The creator might as well place a big stamp of "FORCED" on top of it. Of course an action like that made Holeguy doomed to be hated.

However, like I said before, there are memes that gained there popularity within a day. Of course people call these forced as well. But the meme was enjoyed by many, so people don't really care. And isn't that what a meme is for?

The thing that irks me about forced-meme articles (Such as the ones Tom Rose made, and ones saying "I made this image and it's a meme", etc.) Is that the creators imply that their creations have already spread to memedom, when obviously they have not. Tom Rose was quite rude, so he deserved the trolling. Besides, trolling is a healthy way to drive meme-forcers off the site. Trolls are like the digestive bacteria in your stomach, they destroy all the stuff useless to the body (KYM) And benefit from it.

The thing about Tom Rose that I like is that he always admits upfront that he created his 'memes', but not like, as you said, 'I made that picture lol' crap. That being said, I tend to loathe the entries he makes. He is quite skilled as an artist, really, and some of his… creations (for lack of a better word) tend to have a lot of potential. But- the fact that he promotes them through KYM is just… Not cool.

I always thought KYM documented memes, and that we don't condone forced memes unless they already have a large amount of spread. I think a Tom Rose confirmation would be great, if he posted it(/forced it whatever you wanna call it) elsewhere, then brought it here after it spreads…

Am I wrong?

I think you can sum my wall of text up by the following:

“You don’t create memes”, then, isn’t an actual basis in favor of rejecting a meme entry. It doesn’t work that way anyway. If someone comes in to say “I created that meme, here is how and why” in a relatively well-written entry, we won’t deadpool it for sure. Okay, I must admit it didn’t happen that much compared to the tons of “I made that picture lol” kind of crap entries.

I’ll just say that, when you’re red-handed at trying to force a meme or you don’t try to hide your intent, it won’t become one because of a backslash. I you don’t get caught, it may become what I would call a semi-fabricated meme. They are first made specifically to launch a trend and finally become a meme when more people jump in, seduced by it. It’s something that is mostly enclosed to image based memes such as exploitables/macros and, from what I’ve seen, they don’t last that long for most of them.

[…]

He said something interesting. He said that the Internet has become a cesspool of people trying to profit off its culture by joining Internet crazes. “Like KYM TROLOLO!” may spew an anti-KYM troll. That’s true, the cesspool thing not the anti-KYM propaganda.

You succeed in forcing a meme without getting caught? Good for you. But I feel something still is missing and won't make those memes have the same impact and effect on Internet culture as more "classic" memes.

The difference between Fuck Yeah Seaking/Girugamesh and, for example, Unhelpful High School Teacher? I feel that the formers were forced because their creators thought it was very funny. Now, it's more of a "hey guise, we need a meme this week because we don't know what else to do!"

I think there is something to discuss about the "cesspool of people greedily wanting to create trends for their own good" kind of think. Does it add anything to "true" Internet Culture? Well, I don't think so. Does it help having a heterogeneous culture per se? I don't know. Like I said earlier, that kind of new add-on to Internet Culture is often cringe-worthy. It's like a disposable razor.

Are disposable memes becoming more and more important on the web? is it a good thing?
Anyway, they sure are one of the main reasons a part of Anonymous hates websites such as Reddit or even KYM.

>Implying that anything Anonymous thinks matters

Anyway, I don't really see that much of a difference between Seaking and Unhelpful High School Teacher. I'm pretty sure whoever made the latter did so with the intention of entertaining people, and it appears with how popular it's been on Tumblr, they succeded. If anything, at least they were more subtle about it, unlike the former.

Which is really the entire heart of the matter. The large majority of memes revolve around that; They should be entertaining and fun. There are obvious exceptions of course, but for the majority that is what should matter. Do they last a year and form naturally? Do they survive for a month and originate from, say, memegenerator? Neither really matters, as long as people have fun while they last.

It's true, memes should be fun. But lately too many image macro type of memes pop up. Scumbag Steve was fun, just as Good Guy Greg, I also enjoyed First World Problems. But some of the others were just unnecessary, memes like Uber Frosh and Senior College Freshman. Although they were fun, it feels like some of them were just created in attempt to create a meme. But they were fun and the attempt was succesfull, so I don't really care.

I'm more worried about all those photo fads. Planking started it and then we got owling. After some others we now got Batmanning that is gaining popularity. While I can see people have fun with it, I sometimes get the idea the creator just thought "Hey, planking was successful, I wanna be successful. Let's create a new photo fad.". It's only a matter of time before more people try to create a new photo fad. But as long as people have fun with them, I won't really bother.

I think there is a certain sense in which we need to more precisely define our terms in order to meaningfully discuss this topic. There's a sense in which people seem to be saying that "forcing" a meme entails making original content with the intent of having people like it enough to copy it. However, if that's really what "forcing" a meme means, and "forced" memes are bad, we'd have to throw out half the database! I believe a majority of the memes in existence were made by people who wanted their creations to become popular. The rest of the world just calls it "art".

Using the art metaphor, let's say an artist paints a painting. Now, it's certainly a good painting if people find out about it by accident somehow and every art museum is calling up this guy asking for the privilege of having that piece in their collection. Does it cease to be a good painting if he takes it to a local art gallery and hangs it on the wall, inviting the public to come look at it while enjoying wine and cheese? Do members of the public walk into the gallery, point at the painting and say, "That's not art! You're forcing it!"

All that being said, (this will sound more pretentious than I'd like*) in this metaphor KYM is the museum, and we exist to display art works that are already famous, are currently coming into fame, or were famous in the past. It's wrong for an artist to walk into a museum and start hanging up his own paintings, or even some painting that he found somewhere and thinks is worthy. You do that, and you get kicked out.

There are, however a number of other sites such as Buzzfeed, Tumblr, and others that serve more like galleries in that respect, as well as sites that are more explicitly online art galleries like DeviantArt and YouTube. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with putting something on a site somewhere and saying (even openly) "I think this would make a great meme!" In the end, the spread still has to be organic, but I really don't think the intention of the creator matters in the slightest.

*A less pretentious metaphor would be thinking of memes like words: people can invent words, but they won't really become meaningful unless a large portion of the population starts using them. Going to the publisher of a dictionary and saying, "I made a new word, put it in your next edition!" will at best get you a short talk from a linguist about how dictionaries and languages work and you will be asked to leave. In this metaphor, KYM is a dictionary for the language of memes.

Using the art metaphor, let’s say an artist paints a painting. Now, it’s certainly a good painting if people find out about it by accident somehow and every art museum is calling up this guy asking for the privilege of having that piece in their collection. Does it cease to be a good painting if he takes it to a local art gallery and hangs it on the wall, inviting the public to come look at it while enjoying wine and cheese? Do members of the public walk into the gallery, point at the painting and say, “That’s not art! You’re forcing it!”

Absolutely. I like the metaphor of a new artist trying to openly hang up his own pantings in a museum before getting any recognition from his art. However, on the internet, there are way more people thinking that they know exactly what a meme is (or should be) than the average art goer about art in general. KYM is one of them.
This is actually closely linked to another thread I was planning to make about the issue of what I call Internet Elitism.

You will see more people "protesting" against KYM, having a bad opinion of it and attempting to make KYM lose credibility than art fans protesting in front of buildings related to art history/analyzing laboratories.

One of the hard things is that there are a few key differences between memes and things traditionally called "art".

While people make memes, it's an entirely different process than making art. If you put some paint on a canvas, it's art whether anybody likes it, or even sees it, for that matter. If you put something on the Internet, whether or not it's a meme is entirely determined by the way others react to it.

In general, art belongs to its creator, unless it is sold. Memes don't belong to anyone, even if the material they are built upon does. (e.g. Hitler/Downfall parodies were taken down from YouTube because the video was copyrighted, but in the end, the company that owns the video doesn't own the meme.)

The nature of most non-performance art is such that the audience merely observes it. Memes are, by nature, participatory. This may be part of the reason that some people don't like what KYM does, because as has been so often pointed out, in being an entity that exists to describe memes, it's necessary to have some amount of detachment from them. We don't create new memes or (actively) promote the spread of existing memes, we simply document. Switching to a sports metaphor, the rest of the Internet is playing baseball while we're measuring the distance between the bases and writing descriptions of the rules.

Calm down guys its art

Everyone knows you're the fake Tom Rose. If you are real, then read what I posted on your old wall.

Oh yes I have read your 'post' but I am not here to speak about abrstract semantic existanceilism with you as philosophy is not my thing but rahter I just make art and watch cheers

Or… You could actually answer his question.

Just did

By quoting it.

I could teach you how to do it since when I am not creating memes I am programming 'sites in html getting paid

Bumping this thread with something I forgot to add about all this: the impact and role of "mainstream" sites on memes.
It has been a few years since the word "meme" became extremely popular on websites that didn't really know what it was all about.

Many of their writers seem to feel it's "cool" or "hype" to now have a daily (or at least weekly) account on Internet Phenomena to entertain their readers. We have the same in France with the overly-abused "buzz" term.
That may contribute to the forcing of memes on a wider scale. I'll take my example of Thunderstorm Ice Cream Cone Guy for that but it works with any Advice Dog Variant trend coming from Reddit.

So okay, The Ice Cream cone guy fame lasted 2 weeks after his photoshopping trend "exploded" on Reddit. It lasted 2 weeks because the Washington post made a headline about it, as well as many other websites accounting for Internet trends.

I see this as a problem. Reddit has become a popular place because of its status. So yeah, it helps memes spread like a memehub does. The thing is, pretty much anything that is entertaining enough can then be spotted by mainstream sites' radars and have an article making it big because it's on Reddit and it's funny.

That's what happened with many advice dog Variants that then lost their fame one or some weeks after being covered, like the Hitler house, the rasta teacher and so on.
Original Creativity is no longer an absolutely useful tool in a meme creation.

Make something → post it to Reddit → does it last long enough to have about 400/500 comments? → get an article on a mainstream website that wants to appear "in the know" → meme.

This is an evolution on memes compared to old ones, for the better or for worse.