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This.

Though my perception of God isn't quite as interesting as Natsuru's, the statement still sums me up perfectly.

I never lost faith in God, but I lost faith in the Church and how the church portrays God. Nobody knows God, nobody understand God, nobody ever will. Including how God feels about our political issues…especially about our political issues (You know what I'm talking about).

So while I think there is a God and that Jesus really was a big deal, I am open to any possibility. I suppose that makes me count as Agnostic Thiest

I'm Agnostic, but a bit more atheist because I'd like to have evidence to prove what happened when the world was created, and while neither side has given enough evidence, the Big Bang and science have given more evidence than religion. I just wish that eventually someone's going to come along and prove that the pokemon Arceus created everything and is resting on a shrine at the top of Mt Everest, but until then, I'm agnostic.

I find it in-fathomable that the events resulting in the creation/evolution of humanity, the universe, and everything else could have happened without some will, whether that be gods or not, i have no idea, but that's the best answer I have, so yes, i do.

Atheist here. Mostly 'cause of reddit and lots of time spent thinking, asking questions, not getting answers (or at least I didn't believe I got any).

I had no idea there were so many Theists here. I kinda thought it would be more heavily atheist/agnostic, this being the internet and all.

Anyway, I know nobody asked, but now's as good a time as any to tell everyone that yes, I do believe in God. I'm a Christian, actually. Presbyterian flavor. My beliefs line up a lot with this guy:

Though, that being said, he DID do some stuff I thought was wrong, and he held a few beliefs I wouldn't necessarily.

No comment. And by that I mean I don't think about it.
On a slightly unrelated topic, I saw this ad

on the page. How do they know what threads are about?

YOU'RE A CALVINIST

(quick btdubs for those too lazy to google- Protestant Christian theology is sometimes simplified into two separate semi-philosophical groups- Calvinists, and Arminians… Brawler and myself follow a theological outlook more similar to Jacobus Arminius, whereas Mack here shares parts of the theological outlook of John Calvin (pictured in his post.))

Aww geez, you're an Arminian….

I do believe there is a God, or at least some sort of higher power, but I don't belong to any organized religion. I like to think of God as kind, loving, and forgiving. When I was in catholic school, I never liked the fear that the church tried to instill in us.

I believe in this

I personally do not believe in any type of higher order.
In terms of explaining the universe or any other 'cosmic' things, I think a universe which is completely random and pointless is more beautiful than one with a grand plan; just there because it's there, not for a specific reason.
As for a personal God, I think it's a nice sentiment that there is a reason why things happen and that there is someone watching out for you always. However, I believe if there were a God, he would not be interested in each person's affairs, and may not even care about humanity. He would be more of the architect, but does not care about any specific part of his creation more than another, or may not care about any of it at all.

Anyone can believe whatever they want. I think religion is no longer needed in the sense that it isn't the main way to explain the natural world anymore. As long as religion doesn't overstep it's bounds and impede scientific progress or force itself upon people who do not want it, I'm fine with it.

Short answer: Mainly yes.

I'd certainly like the opportunity to elaborate on my beliefs a bit.

Personally, I just don't really trust anything anyone says if they say to "take it on faith". I just don't believe in "blind faith", or "faith" of any sort, really. "I'll believe it when I see it" is pretty much my mantra.

If someone, somewhere, somehow, manages to find hard proof, genuine evidence, of "intelligent design", I'll believe them. Until then, humanity is naught more than a happy accident, a simple stroke of luck. (Though I don't much believe in luck either. More than I believe in "faith", though.)

But until I have that incontrovertible proof of some manner of "intelligent designer", I won't believe anything but the Big Bang Theory, Natural Selection and "Membrane Theory".

Look up the latter of those three some time. Might be enlightening.

I chose to believe in a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Actually, no I'm not; when it comes down to it, I actually lean more towards Calvinism. However, there are key tenants in Calvinism which I don't agree with, the couple that immediately come to mind being predestined/selective salvation and irresistible grace. I'm of the belief, trying to sum this up as best I can, that God is constantly working in our lives and in the situations around us to provide us with the best circumstances for our benefit, but it is our job to respond accordingly. In other words, we are given the choice, and the complete choice, to react in a way that pleases God, or in a way that satisfies sinful desires, whether this be in regards to salvation, or daily living. That being said, God is still in control, and is aware of the choice we will make. It's just that we have to be the one to make that choice, so that the relationship we have with Him is sincere and personal. It's literally like He's holding us by the hands and saying "Tell me whether you want me to pull you up or let you go." We don't have any action that can change the situation, but we have to be the one to say what He does. Also, to back-track a bit, I believe that salvation and a relationship with God are available to all on the Earth, so long as they accept it.

TL;DR I believe in just enough free will to annoy Calvinists without being an Arminian.

Not really. I'm an agnostic atheist.

I believe in Mod.

Yes.

I rarely ever talk about it online though, it just gets ugly and leads to unnecessary stress.

Hey now, he has a right to choose Calvinism if he wants to, and just because you're predestined to be an Arminian doesn't give you the right to judge.

(Hrmph, that sounded funnier in my head…)

@thread:

I've mentioned my theological beliefs many, many times before on this site, so there's probably little need to repeat myself, but I will say this: I have essentially been a life-long believer in God, but I often question whether I really believe in religion.

I do really appreciate the forum's ability to approach this topic with a healthy amount of mutual respect, but while flame-warring over religious issues tends to do little does nothing to make the world a more enlightened place, I often crave deeper debate over these things.

For instance, why is it that we never discuss the fact that religion is, at its core, a meme in the purest sense of the concept? This neither validates nor invalidates any religion's meaningfulness, but nobody ever seems to talk about it besides Richard Dawkins who, despite being one of the world's great geniuses, is also more than a bit of a prick when it comes to religious issues.

Anyway, السلام عليكم, y'all.

We certainly seem to tiptoe around asking those huge questions such as "Just what is religion really?". I feel that many people in this forum; while mature enough to handle the multiculturalism here, are still are not quite comfortable with having open discussion on big questions such as "Why Religion exists in the first place", "what's it doing/should be doing", "what defines it" and so on so forth.

Such discussions tend to be hotbeds for shitstorms and I think many of us have already experienced that first hand; hence the hesitation despite our better judgement. We've got an aura of peace going on here and we wouldn't want to ruin it.

We mainly post here for enjoyment but having to consider such huge concepts like entirely new perspectives on religion are often not enjoyable at all. Can we be blamed for skirting around the issue?

When I saw this thread I expected to be diving into a flame war, and did not intend on posting. However, I have to say that KYM must be the single most religiously tolerant internet group that I have ever encountered, and to boot, has a surprisingly massive non-atheist population.

That being said, my religious beliefs are complicated. I was raised Roman Catholic, and most of my moral concepts are derived from my Catholic upbringing. I believe in God the Concept, rather than a physical "man in the sky" that answers prayers. I believe in fate, because of the probabilistic nature of molecules, and the "grand plan" of the universe is a large part of what I call God.

I believe that organized religion is a sin against truly understanding God, but it is often necessary to instill some people with good morals. For quite a few people that I know, organized religion is the central key to maintaining a stable and happy life.

I consider myself very devout to my beliefs. They are the primary driving force in my life, and I have given more thought to them than anything else. I could type volumes about my beliefs, but there just is not enough room in a forum post. Plus, I doubt anybody would read a post that was more than four paragraphs long without skipping to the end for a TL;DR edition.

When I said this, the reason why I said "basically" was because I'm not the definition of agnostic, I just understood how odd it is that everything in existence fixes together so perfectly and thought of a special force rather (much like a god) that put it like this.

Examples of a proper natural system that works like that, can't really come to me at the moment, though.

Perhaps the fact that life only works perfectly on the surface of the Earth? The fact that the laws of physics work with each to actually make sense and when they can't, it's quantum mechanics.

Also, as Brucker said, Religion is a concept that was either the first meme or the most powerful, am I right?

I believe in God, yes. I look at "him" as a judge and creator, not some bearded man in the sky who makes miracles happen. I'm not sure on prayers and other ritualistic acts in the Abrahamic religions. In other words, I believe fasting and going to church often does not put you in favor with God. I also believe ANYONE can get into heaven. Be it Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever. I believe your actions is what gets you the ticket into paradise.

I also take what the bible says with a grain of salt. I look at as a manual and not a guide book. Then again, I never read it beyond Genesis.

No, I do not think God hates anyone. He hates no one. No, I do not believe "evil" actions were committed by demons or Satan.

On top of it all, I am a theist. Even if you're not, I do not care. What you believe in is not my problem. I found it despicable of people who try to prove God being real or not.

Thank you.

Well now, that IS interesting. Your illustration seems to more heavily lean towards Calvinism (aside from the "we have to be the one to say what He does" part.) I also find it interesting that you'd choose irresistible grace to be one of your disagreements with Calvinism when unconditional election is easily the most controversial. Anyway, I basically believe in the larger parts of Calvinism because I believe in the total depravity of man. I think that, with total depravity as a theological foundation, the rest of that stuff logically follows, theologically. Also, I want to be clear that I was raised in a VERY Arminian environment, and just recently (well, within the past couple of years) changed camps.

I look forward to future theological discussions, Brawler. I'd love to hear more about your faith. I also don't believe that the Arminian/Calvinist debate is a salvation breaking one, so I'll always welcome you as a brother in Christ. Also, I'd like to tell you why I believe Calvin got it (mostly) right and why I disagree with Arminius.

What should I be categorized in, if let's say, a friend of mine got in an accident, and in my mind, my conscience says "I hope he is okay." A religious nonbeliever? Secular spirituality?

Which one? There have been almost 2800 deities since the beginning of the recorded history.

But I know what you mean, and I have to say no. I don't believe in God myself, but I have no problem with people who do. Sadly though, I have seen a couple of good people gone fanatical with their beliefs, and those are the type of people who I'd like to avoid. You know. The ones that cannot have a rational discussion on the matter.

But as long as they respect my beliefs, I will always respect theirs too.

But although I don't believe in God, there's still the mystery of how the universe got started, which interests me very much. Scientist always whip out the Big Bang theory, but that only explains the beginning of the universe starting at some fractions of a second, and does not cover the point zero.

Was it the collapsed remains of the last unverse, or was there some supernatural being who made it all happen? That is pretty much the only question that really interests me when talking about gods and creation.

I am an atheist. I was born and raised a protestant, but as I grew older and became more aware of the facts in the world, I switched to atheism. My birth certificate and other things might still read protestant, but I no longer associate myself with it.

I follow logic and want the facts to believe in something. I don't believe in that there might be some higher force responsible for all this. The things science has discovered and the facts, hypotheses and theories they brought along with it make more sense to me than "God did it". A few hundred years ago we still believe Earth was the center of the Universe, and we all know how that ended. We all know Advice God is a joke, but some of the things on them do point out the flaws in the logic of the bible.

Nonetheless, I won't judge those who follow a religion, neither will I ask or even force them to stop believing in it. I find that people should be free to believe in whatever they want (take away some of the extreme cases). To me, religions are like guidelines. They simply tell people what to believe and follow, regardless of the religion you follow. They even serve as a way to give people hope. If people feel happy knowing a passed away relative is in "a better place" now and it's what gets them through tough times, then I would find myself a huge dick telling them otherwise. Kids are happy knowing Santa gives them presents, Adults are happy knowing God gives them hope. But to me, those are on the same level of imaginary creatures people choose to believe in. But nonetheless, I won't stop others from thinking otherwise.

Brucker wrote:

For instance, why is it that we never discuss the fact that religion is, at its core, a meme in the purest sense of the concept?

Going to the wiki page for Meme, a meme is "an idea, behavior or style that spreads from person to person within a culture."

Seeing religion as a culture, plus having multiple religions (and thus multiple cultures by that logic), there is certainly a source of truth present here.

Though my beliefs are almost the exact opposite of your own, I appreciate that you've been very contained and have refrained from bashing anyone through the course of this thread. And I've never heard of "membrane theory," though I'm certainly interested in reading about it. Could you give a brief summary?

I am an atheist but I acknowledge the possibility of some kind of deity. I was born a protestant just as randomman was, but my parents weren't strict on it in the slightest. Mostly they just had me come and listen or go into the kids room, it wasn't like they lived by the bible or anything.

Eventually we stopped going to church because of the hypocrisy of many of the people there. They would talk about acceptance and truth, etc., then talk behind people's backs and show absolute hatred for gays, lesbians, and other groups. I didn't understand this at the time, but I know that they were complete hypocrites and didn't even stop to think about it.

Once I stopped going to church, I began examining the world more and more. Reading books and the internet especially helped me expand my knowledge in ways that my school couldn't or wouldn't. I learned about how several of the things in the bible were simply not possible (Noah's flood, for example, if you take it literally.)

I was 12 when I first really started questioning the validity of Christianity and other religions based around gods. I mean really, it's no different than Greek/Roman mythology, just with subtle differences.

There's God and his angels in Christianity, there is Zeus and the lesser gods in Greek Mythology.

Mary was impregnated by God, later giving birth to Jesus, the son of god who had many powers. Zeus impregnated a woman who gave birth to Hercules, the son of the king god who had many powers.

Jesus went through many trials. Hercules went through many trials.

My point is that there has to be something to these lineups between ancient religions. Either they are all just stories, or there was a "son of god" who's story has been being passed down and changed for millennium. I find the former to be more likely.

If evidence were to come forth proving that there was a deity of some sort, then I'd believe it. At the moment though, there is no evidence that can't be easily disproven, so I don't believe in any kind of deity.

I'm Agnostic, and never grew up going to church, I think my parents are the same way. But I did read the Bible a bit and its pretty interesting stuff. I see it more like History than Religion.

It's a variation on the idea of parallel universes. Basically, all matter in a given universe is attached to a "membrane", and these membranes move through extra-dimensional space, outside our perception.

According to "Membrane Theory", or its shorter form "M-Theory", the Big Bang was actually a collision of two such membranes.

You guys should read this article. It's an editorial (well, two editorials) about why religiousness in the US is declining, and I thought it was a really interesting read.

I'd be interested to know how you came to believe this. And I hope you understand I'm not trying to be condescending or anything; it's just a very unorthodox idea that's piqued my interest.

I like to think of myself as an Agnostic under Unorthodox Catholic. Because of this, you'd probably think my parents are strict as hell. Nope. They were both rebellious in their young age as they had to deal with strict, religious parents.

Unlike most people though, I believe in a lot of things at once. God exists by many names, he isn't a person, the big bang happened, evolution happened, ghosts exist, life on other planets exist, parallel universes exist, there's an afterlife, the afterlife is multiple alternate universes people go to depending on their morale, etc. I like to think that not one religion has the true idea of God, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. I when I mean "he," I mean… something. I like to think of God as a web that holds all order. When a lining in the web is torn, something bad happens.

I may sound crazy, but it helps explain the unexplained in the universe.

I believe in reincarnation. I also believe there may be a god. (My god is an Indian who can turn into a wolf.)

I remembered two interesting things that I can mention in this thread.

First, I am a Jew according to Jewish law, or so I am told. Apparently if your mother is a Jew, then you are a Jew. My mother's mother was Jewish, but converted to Catholicism when she married my grandfather. She never told anybody about this until she was on her deathbed, and informed my mother that she is Jewish. Apparently she wanted her to raise me as a Jew as well, or something along those lines, but my father was an antisemite so that definitely was never going to happen.

Second, I knew a guy who started a religious cult a few years ago. I did not consider him a friend, and actually rather disliked him. He was charismatic and pushy, and insisted that everybody was his friend, including me. He never actually attempted to convert me to his beliefs, but he loved to talk about them all of the time. I think he had a group of about fourteen followers the last time I heard about him. His religion was fairly dark and depressing, preaching about the end of the world and how horrible human life was.

I'm extremely impressed at how civil this thread is.

I didn't feel compelled to come back and see what other people had posted because I was certain it would have turned into a volcano.

But I did come back.

And I didn't regret it.

I'm proud of all of you.

I was born catholic but now I'm agnostic.
The question "Do you belive in God?" Is not so simple. Because…
Which God?? The kind conforting God I have been told of by people or the narcissist merciless tyrant described in the Bible. Not to mention the fact is not the only religious book existing.
If we assume the god we are following is the true God then we automatically assume all the other gods are fakes and their followers are stupid, which is pretty egocentric, don't you think so?
How do you know the one we are following is not the true god and we are not the real stupids?
Could we simply accept the fact God might exist and might not, and even in the middle because he/she/they is God and can fuck logic on its basics, and so it's too high for us to understand, and those who think they heard the voice of God were simply high?

So how's the eighth grade going for you?

I was very Catholic until a few years ago. That was when I became an atheist. I just think that one guy invented the idea of hell to scare people into doing what he wants. And it got out of control.

Just ONE guy? Aren't a lot of parents doing the same thing with their little kids by inventing characters like Handlejack?

I was raised Christian, due to certain circumstances, I came to firmly believe there is no "Loving" God, but there is a possibility for a Divine Creator who doesn't give a damn for human affairs.

Well, he is a Pratt.

Nobody's going to get that whose not British, Meme.

Or doesn't spend too much time watching BBC.

Not that I would know.

cough

Throughout my time on the internet, I've seen many Americans who know of a lot of British slang and such words and phrases that I wouldn't have expected them to know. Therefore, I assumed you all would understand, if not at first, then eventually.

You know what? It really pisses me off to see that some of you got downvoted just because of your beliefs. Whoever that is really needs to stop and learn to be more tolerant. It really is sad how we can't have a conversation like this without some asshole negatively influencing everyone. Stop being a bitch and deal with the fact that this is now a topic of conversation.

The only guy I've seen downvoted was the "hail Satan, smoke meth" guy up there, and I highly doubt he was serious about that. I upvoted Brucker because he made a funny and Brawler because I lol'ed at his reaction. I didn't downvote anyone. Did I miss something? Who's getting downvoted?

On the first page, a lot of the posts with positive karma have been downvoted once. I don't think anyone slipped, because it happened quite a few times.