Forums / Discussion / General

Please familiarize yourself with the current rules set before continuing: Current Rules

There are two rules we'll be focusing on here. They are Rule #2

Keep it relevant. If you have nothing to say on a particular subject, you can skip the topic and move on. If you want to address a specific individual about personal matters, contact the user via private message instead of starting a public discussion.</blockquote

and Rule #7

Be friendly. We want our forums to be welcoming place for both old and new users. Please keep your comments and posts constructive and considerate in tone. If you observe a user breaking a rule, try advising the user in the right direction instead of posting insults or harsh criticisms. If the user persists, contact a forum moderator.

Earlier there was some discussion concerning Rule #7 and its relevance to this website. The argument was that many users have a tendency to "pull punches" with their comments and replies in order to not break the "Be Friendly" rule. Because of this, there is a concerning amount of praise but little criticism on entry comments, images/videos, and in forum threads. Several people believe that this limits any real productive conversation, and tends to stagnate conversation more than help it. People wish to say things, but do not out of fear of being reprimanded by moderation for their hard opinions.

People talk behind each other's backs all the time on other websites, and yet they are active. It even happens here, on user walls and in content posts. Neither those sites or this one are really on the decline for it.

The suggested rule change is to remove Rule #7 entirely and/or merge it with Rule #2. People will be allowed to comment as they wish, however they wish, without fear of moderation stepping in when people get their feelings hurt. The only boundary is to keep the commentary productive to the topic at hand.

• Posting Deadpool images, "OP is a faggot", and "+1 Confirm/Deadpool" in entries is not allowed, as it is not productive conversation. Replying to a user about the validness of a meme with the rough side of your tongue is allowed – you might come off as a dick for it, but you won't be receiving any warnings from the mods.

• Off-subject banter on images and videos is not allowed if it is not about the media itself. Talk about that all you want. Post similar images and snide/polite remarks all you want, but keep it on topic.

• Forum threads will be moderated similarly to entries and media. Banter is allowed so long as the post is on subject in some form. You can give someone your hard opinion and you will not have any of the forum mods breathing down your neck for it. Call out mods all you like, in whatever tone you like, even – just keep it on topic with the thread.*

* JFF and user walls are still subject to whatever the hell you want to post, even if it isn't on topic. You can just be an open jerk about it if you want.

There is some limitation to this. If you're telling another user that they need to kill themselves or that they're a scummy pile of scat spewed out by their mother on blahblahblah, you're probably going to get a warning. We want you to be able to voice your honest opinion, not lull others into committing suicide.

---

Please post your opinion on these rule changes. And, just for fun, practice this very rule change in your reply. I'll add my own after a while, as I don't want it to detract from the topic starter. Keep your comments on topic, and have actual content in them – you'll get scowls from me if you don't.

And I can scowl really, really hard.

Mods, please message me if you have any questions about why this came up. I'll explain as best I can.

I don't feel removing Rule Number 7 is any at all productive. Its the rule that grants a user harassment protection if they wish to invoke it, and effectively get Mods to stop the harassers. There is several points where I have actually had to use it to get a few of the more hostile members of the website off my back, so I REALLY don't want to see that one go.

They said it will be deleted or merged with Rule #2, I would like to see to be merged with Rule #2. Anyway I wanna see how many people will keep in mind the no +1 confirm/deadpool rule and the others in this category. And I have a question. The older +1 confirm/deadpool comments will be deleted or not?

I don't think so. The mods doesn't have enough time for that.

A while back I did make a collective Editorial with all the rules and guidelines, it just never has really been looked over and is just sitting their hidden from plain sight. Maybe I'll open it up temorary in the near future to get some discussion rolling, but that's a different case.

But in it I also gave the rules a small rewrite based on past mod discussions, and this was what rule 2 and 7 looked like in it:

2) Keep it relevant. Please make certain any addition or contribution you make to the site is relevant to the topic at hand. If you have nothing to say on a particular subject, skip the topic and move on. Similarly, please make certain your media contributions are relevant, regardless of the state the entry or thread is in. If you want to address a specific individual about personal matters, contact the user via private message instead of starting a public discussion.

7) Behave. We want our site to be welcoming place for both old and new users. Please keep your comments and posts constructive and considerate in tone. If you observe a user breaking a rule, try advising the user in the right direction, rather than posting insults or harsh criticisms. If the user’s behavior persists, contact a moderator.

So as you can see, it contains a bit addition in details to cover stuff you discussed as well. Rule 2 has been epxanded to media as well, and covers that derails aren't an excuse, but it isn't making an exception for JFF yet (although I'm questioning if we should). Rule 7 is actually not getting much differences, but it might require more detail that we disallow harsh criticism, not criticism in general.

Merging the rules together might not work imo. Rule 7, as Nats said, is there to disallow general dickish behavior and blatant trolling, while Rule 2 is there to guide users into posting relevant content.

So instead of merging, perhaps look more into rewriting both a bit. Make Rule 2 cover the general posting guideline including helping out each other, while making Rule 7 a "Don't do that".

And if possible, please share the reason for making this thread Moon, by PM works fine to me.

I'm not certain if "be friendly" needs to be removed, but I understand what the intent is, and I agree with the intent. If the other proposed rules on what is/ is not relevant are applied and enforced I think that those may do a better job of what the intent of the rule was.
I will say, there is at least one instance I tried to message someone in what I thought was a constructive manner (though it wasn't really an issue breaking any rules) and got a rather unfriendly response back.

Also, I like RandomMan's inclusion of specifically mentioning media contributions in Rule #2.

Posting Deadpool images, “OP is a faggot”, and “+1 Confirm/Deadpool” in entries is not allowed, as it is not productive conversation.

I'd disagree with this. Not only is it silly to prevent people from posting memes on Know Your Meme, but what exactly is "productive conversation?" Are the reaction images that always get posted considered "productive?" Probably not, and yet they're the things that are the funniest or most upvoted on almost all pages. Limiting that substantially limits both the humor and "culture" of the site.

I'm not really understanding the sudden obsession with "on-topic" conversations. Very seldom do image or video comments have more than a dozen comments on them, and most of the time, they're already relating to the image or video.

As for memes/events, many times, people in the comments react to it as they do news, posting their opinions and then debating those opinions. While this may have little to do with "productive conversation" or be "on-topic," it still breeds a healthy and active userbase.

I have to agree that it should be merged with #2. I have held back on many occasions when I could have been a lot worse. Here is an example

I was having a pretty good time with that thread, but I had to pull out at the last moment because the longer I stayed on it, the more the fear of getting some sort of punishment grew. I pretty much had to leave. I never legitimately insulted anybody on that thread or called anyone any names whatsoever, but I was still being a dick which Rule #7 says isn't allowed. I don't think flinging heavy insults and telling people to kill themselves as you put it should be allowed, but being a bit nasty should. It's sort of unrealistic for people to be "friendly" at all times and prevents much authentic debate and criticism from occurring. I don't want KYM to escalate to the level of YouTube comments or anything, not at all! I just think debate should be encouraged and not suppressed out of the fear that you're not being "friendly" enough.

@Sam

I dunno. I've personally never seen a debate benefit when people are allowed to make points as unfriendly as they please

Because what happens is that as soon as people detect you are losing patience and respect for others in your posts, that's the point where people begin ignoring what you say

It's always possible to make a point politely. Sometimes you have to be harsh, but you rarely need to be dickish. At least if you are the one being calm and rational, then it's not you with the problem when people don't listen. But when you start being a dick, that's the precise moment that people begin glancing over your points, jumping to ad-hominem arguments or strawmen, or missing your point entirely all because they begin focusing on you and your your attitude rather than look at the actual point you are trying to make.

Notice that as soon as people started being dicks in that thread, that's where the topic began to slide off the corners, points began to be missed, unimportant tangents were being argued etc

So even if your points are reasonable and solid. If you speak them in an unreasonable manner, you may as well be vomiting fallacies to your debate opponents because that's all they hear. Maybe a reasonable debate artists can still listen to personal attacks come his way and get the message, but not everyone is so reasonable.

In a debate, it's better to try and work with your debate opponent rather than express defiance. Otherwise defiance is what you get in return and then the debate can go nowhere.

I think the Be friendly rule is good and I don't see how it stops anyone from debating unless they were already afraid that their points sucked (I mean lets face it, if you have to resort to jackassery to get a point across, maybe your point isn't that good)

But the problem with it is that it's almost too simple. People are unsure to what extent this rule applies and where. How friendly do we have to be? I like the simplicity of the concept but its just so subjective that people are still having trouble figuring out how to interpret it. Add onto that, it's also kinda unrealistic of an expectation

I like the alternate version RM put forward: Behave. I.E: You don't have to be goody two shoes, but keep your man pants on and don't act like an obnoxious little brat

Overall, the don't be a dick rule, probably needs to elaborate more. How dickish can we be? Where is dickishness appropriate? What's really acceptable and what isn't?

@TSG

I’d disagree with this. Not only is it silly to prevent people from posting memes on Know Your Meme, but what exactly is “productive conversation?”

I counter-disagree. People aren't posting "OP is a faggot/+1 deadpool" on new entries because they just love that meme so much, they post it just to be an asshole at the entry writers expense.

It's spam, it's not funny and it does not help. Your OP macro/deadpool is flat-out ignored when we rank a entry for worthiness.

Most people who post OP macros have no idea what is done in the process or even took a moment to bother researching what the entry is about, or even if it is actually faggotry! Half the time, the deadpoolers get it wrong and post OP macros on entries that eventually get frontpaged.

All they do is piss everyone off. They piss the entry writer off, they piss the editors off, they piss the mods off.

We've literally got thousands of other memes here if you just want to post memes, you can pick anyone of those instead of pointlessly harassing people who come here because their editing skills wasn't top-par

We don't care how bad their entry is, we can edit the entry. There's no need to be a dick

You know what is productive conversation? COMMENTS THAT HELP IMPROVE THE ENTRY!!! Suggest changes! Find content! Dig up facts! Look for evidence! Provide editing tips! At the very least google what the fuck OP is talking about before talking out of your ass.

Then, once you've helped research the entry and you've found evidence to prove that OP is being a faggot, you may call OP a faggot.

I’m not really understanding the sudden obsession with “on-topic” conversations.

We've always had a balance of posters who like chaos and posters who like order. It's a matter of preference, but ideally we'd rather appeal to both. This is done by keeping chaos an order to respective places. We have places for chaos, such as general comments under media. But other places where we demand order like image galleries as a whole.

Topic irrelevancy is a huge problem in image galleries right now. I'm having to delete tons of meta images that wont shut up about how 'X beat the MLP gallery views' and that's probably why addressing topic relevancy is a growing subject

I’ll add my own after a while, as I don’t want it to detract from the topic starter.

I'm actually against the idea myself. I was asked for my opinion on the matter and I replied in the original conversation that I don't think it would make a much of a difference. If you want people to post more honest and true to their own opinion, Rule #2 and #7 aren't what's getting in the way. Rather, the petty karma system seems to be what keeps people from saying anything, out of fear of being downvoted to oblivion. Most people who come on KYM have never read the rules, so changing them wouldn't matter. If they lurked beforehand (which they should do), they would know the kind of unspoken rules on KYM to some extent.

Entries are another matter, though. Because only staff can delete comments, a lot of entries are full of irrelevant postings in the comments. It ranges from the "Deadpool" to "OP is a Faggot" images all the way to the recent Goat Simulator Goat-tan postings. I'd be fine if the comments section there were enforced to stay on topic with the entry, but on the forum and in the media… all it does is kill conversation.

So, I think I should post my opinion on this matter.

I think we should change Rule #7. Consider the following, I don't agree with an opinion. I tell a user he's an idiot because his opinion makes no sense. It does not matter how well my opinion added to the discussion, the fact is that if the user takes offense to my use of the word 'idiot'. I've now broken a rule and be forced to change it or face being warned for refusing to do so.

I don't mean we should outright remove it, but alter it to give users more elbow room. Let them tell users how full of crap they are, however they want. Of course, there would be some restrictions on this. Being outright hostile would still be against the rules. Also, calling people idiots with no reason to back your claims up would also be against the rules because you're not really contributing to a reasonable conversation.

I don't think we should force the users to be polite or face moderation. Such a rule is tyrannical and impossible to follow. Impossible if you want a happy, functioning community, at least.

I've seen users discuss other user's they detest outside of the KYM forums. Now, that's not really an issue that changing the rules with fix. If people are too afraid to say shit to the user being discussed, they won't do so after the rules allow them to. Still, some users may decide to call out the user they dislike and at least then users will know where they stand. (Verbs, you asshat.)

My original idea was to change the rule to something along the lines of 'Be Productive'. But a good friend of mine pointed out that defining what is productive is far too difficult. And that's why I'm glad this thread was made. Maybe we can all expand on this idea and create a better system.

Of course, Alex brings up a good point. The fear to post freely is probably because of the karma system rather than the rules. Maybe we should discuss the karma system at a later time.

Also, merging it with Rule #2 may work, but we'd have to clarify on some things, I'd think.

I also agree to applying these rules to the entry comments much more strictly than we do now.

For a Site about internet memes and internet culture you guys are forgetting the Rules of the Internet (that being the most complete list of the rules I've seen). For a site that revels in fail, win, lulz, the pain and suffering of others isn't it a bit on the harsh side to try and childproof this site? I mean I can look up an entry about kids who have killed themselves on the internet but I can't call OP a faggot? WTF
Remember why you are here and what memes mean to you and don't forget the rules (I've posted a few good ones everyone should read)

8. There are no real rules about posting.
10. If you enjoy any rival sites -- DON'T.
11. All your carefully picked arguments can easily be ignored.
11.1. Anything you say, no matter how truthful or carefully picked, WILL be deemed wrong if the majority is against you.
12. Anything you say can and will be used against you.
13. Anything you say can be turned into something else. – fixed
14. Do not argue with trolls -- it means that they win.
15. The harder you try, the harder you will fail.
16. If you fail in epic proportions, it may just become a winning failure.
17. Every win fails eventually.
18. Everything that can be labeled, can be hated.
19. The more you hate it, the stronger it gets.
20. Nothing is to be taken seriously.
20.2. Because nothing is a serious matter. Everything else isn't. No exceptions.
25. Relation to the original topic decreases with every single post.
26. Any topic can be turned into something totally unrelated.
27. Always question a person's sexual preferences without any real reason.
28. Always question a person's gender – just in case it's really a man.
33. Lurk moar -- it's never enough.
39. CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
40. EVEN WITH CRUISE CONTROL YOU STILL HAVE TO STEER.
42. Nothing is Sacred.
43. The more beautiful and pure a thing is, the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.
100. Faggotry will not be tolerated.
101. You are never THE BEST at anything, deal with it.
109.2. Rules that make your head hurt are retarded NO EXEPTIONS
118. Newfags must be tortured to death. No exceptions.
119. Only newfags like caturday, Bruce Lee, and Desu.
127.0.0.0.1. OP is a faggot. No exceptions.
144. People can't understand sarcasm.
144.2. As if people could understand it!
145. If you take it seriously gtfo.
152. They didn't call you retarded but they were thinking it.
153. It's funny to pick on people's grammar no matter how good it is. No exceptions.
154. The louder you scream at people the harder someone else will laugh.
160. Google ftw. No exceptions.
163. There's a reason- you know what? Fuck it. If you can't figure it out, you seriously need to LURK MOAR.
166. People who get depressed on the internet need a better use of time.
167. Fleshlights are the answers to life's problems. No exceptions.
198. If it's not on Google, It does not exist. No Exceptions.
199. If it's not on Google, then you're searching with the wrong criteria, no exceptions
199.1. If SafeSearch is on, you are a fucking faggot, no exceptions.
200. Pictures or it didn't happen.
205. All Americans are fat. No exceptions.
221. RETARDED NEWFAGS, should always be shot without warning NO EXCEPTIONS!
222. The game.
232. You cannot control the person in charge. No exceptions.
292. There are no real rules about moderation -- enjoy your ban.
306. Even one positive comment on Japanese things makes you a weeaboo.
332. If it exists, someone is offended by it, no exceptions.
338. Big Brother is Always Watching You O_O Including weegee, anonymous, and GLaDOS. No exceptions.
339. Except when he's not.
340. Admins always suck more then Mods. No Exceptions.
340.2. If there are no Mods, hacking will ensue.
340.3. Mods can't spell. Admins can't use grammar. Anon rules.
349. One just does not "make a meme". No exceptions
449. Trolling is fun, especially without moderation.
450. You suck at trolling, no exception.
451. You aren't misunderstood, you're just not funny.
584. Never correct a bro who is trying to help you. No exceptions.
654. No matter how sad you are, Caramelldansen WILL cheer you up.
668. I am a huge faggot. Please rape my face.
XXX. If you read this far, you're a fag. No exceptions.

@Derpy: Not enough pony and 14 should have been "14. Do not respond to ad accounts -- it means that they win." I say we just keep things simple and throw out all rules except rules number 8 and 12.

I also think that since this site is owned and connected to Cheezburger why is there separate rules for KYM and then even more separate rules for the forums? They don't have NSFW tags on memebase (FYI that pic would be NSFW here)

HolyCrapItsBob wrote:

I think we should change Rule #7. Consider the following, I don’t agree with an opinion. I tell a user he’s an idiot because his opinion makes no sense. It does not matter how well my opinion added to the discussion, the fact is that if the user takes offense to my use of the word ‘idiot’. I’ve now broken a rule and be forced to change it or face being warned for refusing to do so.

To me, it seems completely reasonable that you should be given a warning for that sort of behaviour. Disagreeing with someone is okay, but as soon as you start flinging words like 'idiot' around, debates quickly devolve into petty flamewars. You might be quite resistant to insults like that, but you have to remember that others might not take too kindly to them. You won't be contributing anything to the discussion other than causing some hurt feelings, and that really isn't helpful for the proper functioning of this site.

I don’t mean we should outright remove it, but alter it to give users more elbow room. Let them tell users how full of crap they are, however they want. Of course, there would be some restrictions on this. Being outright hostile would still be against the rules. Also, calling people idiots with no reason to back your claims up would also be against the rules because you’re not really contributing to a reasonable conversation.

I'd argue that telling a user that they're 'full of crap', or that they're an 'idiot' would count as outright hostility. There shouldn't ever be a need for you to do that. Backing up your hostility with some arguments of your own doesn't justify the fact that you've just insulted someone.

I don't see any reason for us to remove Rule 7. Of course, it won't be possible to enforce the rule in all situations, but it's a good guideline to follow. I've heard from a few different users that one of the most attractive features of KYM is the friendly community. Our userbase gets on remarkably well compared to what I've seen in other sites, and doing anything to damage that just seems like it would be a step backwards.

I really like BSoD's point:

if you have to resort to jackassery to get a point across, maybe your point isn’t that good

Allowing people to use harsher language won't necessarily result in more productive discussions. I'd imagine that it would just lead to a lot more feelings being hurt, and it would put a lot more power into the hands of those willing to be dicks in order to get what they want.

@Vaz

We're not talking about childproofing the site. Lord knows we have so much softcore porn here.

We're talking about people being assholes and how much leniency we can afford to assholes. Which thus calls us to revise Rule 7

We're not against the OP meme either. We're against people being assholes to OP when it isn't called for. Mangy called OP a faggot on the newest opinion thread but you didn't see me take action against him for that. I can tell when it's all just in good humor. But what I don't like is when numerous people jump on BNM's without reason, whether its with a meme or not

But I feel you are trying to make a point about not taking things too seriously and you're not wrong about that. I believe that's why the rules were made to be loose and simple in the beginning. We don't need or want to be to be high strung over regulation. So when it comes to rules, it would be great to hit a good balance that's clear for both users to understand and mods to guide by but doesn't put tons of pressure on everyone to watch themselves/each other

As for why the rules here are way different from Cheezeburger, that's because KYM is very far removed from the other Cheezeburger sites in terms of community and function…plus different history and management

The rules and guidelines are different because KYM is different from Cheez. KYM is like a daughter company, we don't fall within the same guidelines as Cheez. Memebase also doesn't have mods, and their staff doesn't contain of 4 people. They have seperate sites they use for the NSFW (the After Dark section), something KYM then doesn't. Different companies, different rules. Simple as that.

KYM is a part of Cheez like Tumblr is a part of Yahoo. So following your post, what you're saying here is that Tumblr should use all the rules Yahoo mantains, such as their porn restrictions, because Tumblr is a daughter company of Yahoo.

I kinda went cross eyed when I realized this (again, because I thought it was fixed):

To all of you guys complaining that the Comments Section completely ignores the rules, so the rules need to be changed because nobody in the comment section follows the rules, I challenge you to go do this:

Find a Link to the Rules in the Comments Section. Not the Forums, the Comments Section.

…

Yeah, keep looking.

….

No, keep going. Keep doing it until your eyes pop out or dry up.

…

Is my point across yet? Nobody follows the stinking rules because they don't even know we have them. They are not out there in the open. They are only accessible via the Forums Reply/Edit Window and the link to the left of the post box. (Which leads you to an outdated version of the rules actually)

Let me answer questions before getting back on topic:
I understand that they are run differently, but what I was saying is I can click from one to another without any form of censorship except for here. Also after 12 isn't a nsfw part of the site. It's about drinking fails. This is what you can see by going to the bottom of this page and clicking the links nsfw only on KYM
You can also click on sponsored links to go here (also NSFW on KYM) So show me where the NSFW warnings are on other Cheezburger sites. As your average person browsing these sites (and most sites across the internet) clicking from one link to another you never know what you're going to see on the next site. So why are we trying to be kidsafe when Cheezburger isn't? Most people would tell you if you can be fired from work for looking at stuff on any Cheezburger site than you shouldn't be looking at Cheezburger sites at work. Plain and simple.

Same goes for Youtube embeds. I can post a vidya without a nsfw tag but if I take a screen grab from same vidya it would have to be censored. Rules for one and no rules for another. That makes no sense.

@BSoD

We’re not talking about childproofing the site. Lord knows we have so much softcore porn here.
We’re talking about people being assholes and how much leniency we can afford to assholes. Which thus calls us to revise Rule 7

Actually the rules that have been set in the past have already tried to childproof this site and obviously failed if there is softcore porn here. (insert sarcasm cuz softcore porn still shows nipples)

We’re not against the OP meme either. We’re against people being assholes to OP when it isn’t called for.

So getting back to topic Nats makes an excellent point that rules don't exist on entries and also what I said before about 2 sets of rules, one for entries and one for forum. Also getting back to Rules of the internet if someone is being a faggot you call him on it. As a mod you can warn and ban as you feel (as I know all too well). We all know there are assholes in the world and that we all break the be friendly rule all the time but you as a mod have the discretion to say "ok this guy needs a bitch slap" or "ok that was just him trying to be funny but failing badly." Does there need to be a rule that mods must follow and even possibly use as an excuse to ban someone?

I mean do you guys as mods like these rules or are you just
a) fallowing orders.
b) discussing and settling on rules that fit best.
c) really believe this site needs to be Safe and Sane

@Blue Screen

O.O Good points. I take back 99% of what I said.

I'm going to leave this here as my argument against banning the OP jokes.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/le-8gga-faec

OMG guys, seriously… we're not banning OP jokes! Read the thread!

Here's an example of the shit that I want to see less of

Look at the comments to that. OP was fucking brutalized. I'm not talking about the OP images, I'm talking about the way people treated OP and the macro's were just part of that

Did the guy read guidelines? Did he make a legit meme? No he didn't. But he didn't deserve that treatment

He wasn't trolling. He wasn't trying to force shit. He saw something and just wanted to make an entry for it, albiet poorly. We could have helped him with that. He came here hoping he would get that help but instead he gets dickslapped with accusations, personal insults, demands to leave and warnings that the mods were coming in to ban him

You know what? Instead of banning the OP, I would have banned some of the guys calling the OP out for starting shit with the OP and violating the rules

+1 Suspending quicker for shit like that.

This anti-OP behavior is getting out of control and is just shameful for the site. We can probably suspend those folks on "Keep It Relevant," "No Flooding or Spamming" and "Be Friendly."

relevant