Forums / Discussion / Meme Research

As some of you might know, I made the Pinkie Pie Breaking The 4th Wall entry yesterday. After I got some more work done yesterday, I can say it's looking pretty good. But of course, as with each new MLP entry, you get the negative comments with arguments that make no sense imo. At first I don't really mind. But not a single MLP entry goes by without getting those comments from bronies and non-bronies alike. It's starting to annoy me at times.

So before I continue, I'm going to counter some of the standard arguments and give my opinion on them.

• "Too many pony entries" or "We don't need another pony entry": I still fail to see how that is an argument. KnowYourMeme covers memes regardless of origin or type. If it's notable and deserves an entry, then that's what we do. Simple as that. That can't even be considered an argument, just a dumb excuse. Plus, as it currently stands, Pokémon still has more sub-entries compared to My Little Pony. Not even mentioning all the Advice Animal entries we have. So once again, not an argument, just an excuse.
• "We need a seperate site for all the Pony Memes": First, that's rude. You're indirectly saying KYM isn't or can't do a good job at covering MLP memes. And as I did a lot of work on the MLP entries, I take that personally. I spend hard work on those entries and don't like comments that indirectly say I should take my effort somewhere else while this is a site made for that. But second, why do we need a seperate site? KYM does a great job at covering the important memes. Of course I don't like each one as much, but that's just a personal opinion and shouldn't matter. There are already plenty of brony sites out there, why need another one specifically for the memes? Lastly, if you want a KnowYourPony so badly, go make one yourself. Don't be so goddamn selfish and demand it from others.
• "MLP memes get all the attention why other, better, memes have to suffer.": Most of the content featured on the frontpage isn't related to MLP in any way, so this is just a bad excuse. Second, KYM has to appeal to its visitors. And as we know, a lot of daily traffic comes from bronies. So it only makes sense that KYM also features brony related stuff. The comments you read then about "too much MLP frontpage" are just annoying.
• "Only MLP memes get confirmed": See above argument. Plus going back to another tv-related subculture: Pokémon has more confirmed memes than MLP.
• "Ponies take over the trending bar constantly": Comments make up the trending bar. When you make that comment on a MLP entry, you're only helping in getting it trending. Irony much?

So that covers most of the main arguments. Although I doubt I should even consider them arguments.

But let's continue the original discussion. I'd like to know what you guys think. Do these arguments make sense or are they just pointless ranting? And what should we do with the pony memes?

Overall post was too big, had to split it up.

To me, I find that we've been supressing the MLP memes a bit too much. Which is also why I've created and helped out on new MLP entries lately. I know both bronies and non-bronies alike want to make KYM appeal to everyone. So they tend to aim for less seperate MLP entries, as more MLP entries might cause more tension. But that doesn't take away the fact that ignoring MLP memes doesn't match with KYM's function (the documentation of internet phenomena). As I said before, if it is notable and should be covered, then that's what we do. Always saying "+1 Merge" is just annoying.

Another popular opinion is that one MLP derivative "completely ruins a meme". I fail to see how one MLP derivative completely ruins a meme. If I would post 5 Pokémon derivatives, I doubt anyone would complain.

A popular follow up to the above "argument" is that these images should stay in the pony entries. I strongly disagree with this. If something has received a pony derivative, it shows spread, as other fandoms have adopted it and used it. Therefore there is no reason why these images shouldn't be uploaded to the image gallery of the seperate entry.

But before you go make a post about when a pony meme should deserve a seperate entry or not, have the following facts:

• Both the Dashface and Fluttercry are confirmed entries. They're both pretty minimal, but still receive attention every now and then. This shows that even more minimal MLP memes can reach confirmed status.
• Searching for "My Little Pony" in the search bar ends you up with 17 deadpooled entries on the first page alone. Many of those which have been deadpooled by me personally. So don't worry, we don't allow every minimal thing to get an entry.

Before I end this post: I'm not interested in why you hate or love ponies, currently I only like to know what you think about the MLP memes and the entries we created for them. Give examples if possible. Also feel free to make suggestions for existing or non-existing (yet) memes.

There are many MLP memes. The problem is that there are some that tend to be short lived, and quite a few of them are both short-lived and contained entirely within parts of the brony community core websites.
The best thing to do in these cases is to try and merge entries, like we've done so far. This guarantees a statistically long-lived and widespread meme, and makes the entries confirmable.
MLP entries that lack spread, of which there are quite a few, should be deadpooled; however we shouldn't complain about the entries that can demonstrate spread. If it's a meme, it's documented.
There are too many people who jump on the bandwagon when people complain that new MLP entries aren't really notable, and just start spamming "not moar mlp". It's a shame, and stifles actual research.

MDF Wrote:

There are many MLP memes. The problem is that there are some that tend to be short lived, and quite a few of them are both short-lived and contained entirely within parts of the brony community core websites.
The best thing to do in these cases is to try and merge entries, like we’ve done so far. This guarantees a statistically long-lived and widespread meme, and makes the entries confirmable.

This a thosuand times this ^^

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Personally I find that some things are "short lived" so making an entry for something popular today but not popular tomorrow isn't necessary

I think you did a great job in countering those arguments. I do feel as if the commenting subcommunity and forum frequenting subcommunity of KYM are different and separate often times, so the arguments that you're making for many commenters may only be seen by forum frequenters. I left a post in the main FiM article about this, so hopefully we'll have more than the regulars commenting on it.

I would like to add to your points. I think that FiM is the biggest thing going on the web right now by a long shot. Activity within the fandom and its spread outside of it may be unprecedented in terms of Web culture (a Daniel or a Brucker would have to say for sure though…OR MAYBE JAMIE DUBS.)

Seeing as it is so big, it makes sense that there would be so much activity. It's "trending" in part because people have conversations unrelated to the phenomenon in the comments instead of arguing or supporting whether or not it is a meme-related concept or whether or not it's notable. But if people posted certain goings-on in the community and its spread into the mainstream of in other sects of Web culture, I think you'd find that it should still be trending about as much as it is now.

It's hard to say comparatively what goes on in other Internet subcultures, and no offense to them as they have been around longer, but I kinda doubt that furries, Homestuckers, otakus, and other groups are spreading as quickly as the brony subculture is. That's why the article should be trending. Apparently, DeadMau5 wore a Fluttershy shirt (loser…) on stage recently. That is a reason for discussion and therefore would make the article trend. The well-known gray "Brony" shirt along with many MLP figurines were seen on ESPN's Pardon the Interruption, a well-known and renown sports talk show. That is a reason for discussion and therefore would make the article trend.

Stuff like that happens all of the time in the fandom and the spread occurs at point-in-time instances such as these as well as extended events (like the nearly quarter of a million dollars being raised for the BronyCon documentary. Approaching $250,000 for a documentary about a Web subculture.) Like I said, I don't know much about other subcultures, but I don't think other memes or subcultures have events that occur that frequently and consistently.

However, I do think that some submemes are unnecessary. I'm not saying this just for FiM but for other articles as well. Should we make entries of matters that are only important within the community or should that sub-meme entry have notable spread outside of the community as well?

For example, Homestuck is a confirmed subculture as well as FiM. Derpy Hooves is a sub-meme of FiM, but it stands on its own on the Internet. However, many others seem to be notable only in the brony community.

If that's the case, how many entries could be made of submemes of Homestuck that are huge within the Homestuck community but, like many FiM submemes, have little influence outside of the community?
 
Again, I don't touch the FiM-related entries outside of adding occasional images. There's just too much for me to try to handle, even as a brony, because I'm not too savvy about making or maintaining articles. But that seems to be a double standard in favor of FiM but against other subcommunities.

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said here. We should be more concerned with the quality of MLP entries then the number of them.
As for the Homestuck example, there are literally tons. I'm assuming this is the case with all fandoms. The difference is that there isn't a large hometuck-fandom presence contributing to the site, so these aren't sumbitted as regularly as the MLP ones. This is irrelevant, of course.

I think that entries in these cases should meet this criteria:
-Relevance (meme demonstrates spread beyond it's community of origin, or if it has a large community if origin permeates most sub-communities within it. For example: memes on 4chan should be sighted off site and on multiple boards, fandom memes should be nearly universal within fandoms)
-Staying Power (popularity persists and/or grows throughout a period substantially greater then a month)
-Mutation (while it is popularly being used, the meme should also be mutating, forming new creations and forms of the meme in question. For example, the Ton Dan MLP entry, the Strider is on it Homestuck entry, would be disqualified by this because it stopped producing new derivative media before the month was out
EDIT: Amandab has informed me that this is already the criteria. Awesome.

Anyway, if this is applied it should cut back on the amount of MLP entries, while allowing the MLP entries that deserve confirmation to rise to prominence.

On a semi-related note, can we just deadpool this? It lacks enough spread, and is constantly bumped to the Trending bar due to discussion on how horrible people find the fanfic,

I've been wondering if Lyra Plushie, PONY.MOV, Ponification, Story of the Blanks, Luna Game, Cupcakes and Fluffy Ponies could all be covered in a single MLP fanworks article. While people do complain too much about the number of entries, I also think that some on their own (like Luna Game and Story of the Blanks) while notable to a certain extent, shouldn't have the degree of emphasis placed on them that having a whole page gives something when compared to other memes that are still referenced regularly. It's not that I don't think Cupcakes or the Lyra plushie deserve their own pages, but because they're such notable examples of mlp fanworks (especially cupcakes) we couldn't exactly make such a page without covering them on it. I think this could be worth thinking about as it would shave the number of total sub-entries down by 6 and it would also serve as a place to mention any future mlp fanworks that get alot of spread and attention.

[edit]
Note: I started writing this when this thread only had one post in it. Everyone above me ninja'd me while I wrote this. But strangely enough I ended up repeating exactly what Verbose said. I didn't copy him, is what I am trying to say. We must think alike
[/edit]

@Randomman

While your reasoning is perfectly sound and I have no disagreements with it at all, I have a feeling that your message may fall on deaf ears on those who actually make those arguments (the ones you just countered)

I've seen the people who make them and my theory is that their thought process goes like this:

"Oh lawd yet another article with ponies, I'm so tired of seeing these things. How am I going to reduce how often I have to see this?…I know….+1 deadpool!"

Or from a Brony perspective:

"Oh lawd yet another article with ponies, I know that people are so tired of seeing these things. How am I going to reduce their rage and my fandom and subsequently myself?…I know….+1 deadpool!"

They don't have a debate to give you unfortunately, they are just speaking without thinking.

I wonder how often people ever think these thoughts:

"I've seen this being referenced several times here and there and I should mentioned this as evidence of spread"

or

"This article should mention this or that because the meme is relevant to this or that"

or

"I have not seen this meme, but I am aware it could have spread in parts of the web I don't explore so I won't object to it"

Those are the kind of thoughts that I have when I read KYM articles. If you have seen me comment on memes, you might notice that I don't say +1 confirm or +1 deadpool. In many cases I actually give my opinion of how much of a meme something is and either provide examples or suggestions with reasoning but most people seem to insist on either confirming or deadpooling memes based on how much they actually like it. As if KYM is some meme rating system.

Grimdark/gore/R34 meme? ZOMG +1 DAEDPOOL!

Meme involving your favorite video game? ZOMG +1 CONFIRM!

Meme implies something about your subculture? ZOMG +1 DEADPULL!

Meme that compliments something you like? ZOMG +1 CONFURM!

I've seen this happen so much, it irks me. So many people judge memes like this; basing their reasoning entirely on how much it appeals to them regardless of how much they use it let alone how well known it is across the internet.

It's these same people who are arguing about whether or not your Pony articles should exist. That's my explanation as to why you are getting the responses you have gotten so far. As for what to do about that, I am unsure. We are pretty much just dealing with non-contructive comments with no thought put into them and you cannot control that.

But I echo suggestions that you should not worry about article number and focus on article quality. Not that merging smaller MLP articles with larger, related ones would not be a good idea.

I'm going to offer an example of what I consider to be a constructive meme comment with actual thought put into it:

Now regarding your latest article (Pinkie Pie and the 4th wall) I wont lie: I wasn't sure if it was really a meme to begin with. It's a trope within the fandom for sure as every Brony pretty much knows that Pinkie Pie breaks the fourth wall. Its a concept that is about as widespread as Lyra's love for anthropology inside Brony circles. But since the Lyra memes don't have their own unique articles, I really wondered if Pinkie memes should too.

I would like to see signs of the concept gaining thorough spread outside of just the Brony community. It would definitely warrant confirmation if it does. If it's just relegated to fandom common knowledge then it's probably small enough to merge with a larger subject that encompasses Brony-created character tropes. But of course both those scenarios are dependent on future meme research as the spread and usage of the meme is currently unclear so I do not recommend taking either action right now

Granted, I can think of supporting evidence for the article. One example that comes to mind is this webcomic where Pinkie Pie broke the 4th wall in each strip. It played a role in spreading Pinkies 4th wall smashing character trait around the fandom. So with examples like that and more, there is evidence of a potential meme if not one already

Lastly I will add that if Pinkie Pie has more than one trope attached to her, she deserves her own article.

Now THAT's what I call constructive input on a meme article. No +1 whatever necessary.

I'd actually disagree. We don't need to merge those articles if they can stand on their own. Cupcakes, Fluffy ponies, ponification and the Lyra Plushie (if it ends up having staying power) all qualify for their own pages.
I would be on board for merging the Luna Game and Story of the Blanks due to their similar format and relative lack of spread. They aren't really notable as separate entries, but combined as something like MLP Creepypasta Games could be a minor meme.
PONY.MOV also lacks spread, but I don't see any counterparts similar enough to merge it with.

Most of what I would have said is already here so I just want to add one little thing.

(How the hell do you quote a small section of another post? Like Acetone did?)
@Verbose, talking about internal community memes
I think that memes that have large internal spread absolutely should have entries, even if they don't have much notability outside of their communities.
Yes, MLP (as with any fandom) has a lot of inside jokes that non-bronies won't understand, but the whole point of KYM is to act as a sort of encyclopedia or reference guide for people curious about a meme that they find on the internet at large.
For someone trying to research, understand, or join the group, knowledge of the most popular in-jokes is a very good thing to have and should be documented here as a sub-entry of its parent culture.
I fully support other subcultures adding their own sub-memes as well.
Ponies simply have a lot of fans and people actually willing to put in the effort to write the articles.
I know nothing about Homestuck, but if someone out there does, they should be free to (and encouraged to) document their fandom.

At the end of the day, everyone should remember that despite the discussion and fun that all the 'regulars' have, KYM is primarily about providing documentation, history, and context for internet trends.
Leaving out a popular meme simply because it's tangentially related to something else only hurts the overall goal of the site.

@Gaben
Not sure if serious, or just trolling.

@BSOD
Pinkie Pie shouldn't get her own article. The reasons some background ponies got their own articles was because the fandom created a single, unified perception. While this is also true of the main 6 characters, they were given those traits by the shows creators, and so there was no mutation; the community just acknowledged what was already there.
I'd be more in favor of having articles like Pinkie Pie breaking the 4th wall, as it's something that displays more mutation.

Fair enough. I just have the impression that objects, people or characters that trigger enough memes that involve themselves become worthy of their own article as a parent article to their own memes.

But of course Pinkie Pie is nowhere near that state.

Well, the one thing that needs to be remembered is that KYM is NOT a pony site, but a general internet culture site, and should try its best to accurately and proportionally reflect what's going on in the webs. Pony is huge, so it rightfully deserves a huge portion of this site to be dedicated to it, but at the same time, I do think we get too many obscure pony memes getting their own sub-entries.

I think the general rule of thumb about whether something pony deserves its own sub-entry is whether or not a non-mlp fan is likely to come across it. If I'm just some random jackass who keeps seeing this /)(^3^)(\ pop up, I'm going to want to know what the hell it is and it means, so it deserves a sub-entry.

Honestly, RandomMan, I don't think Pinkie breaking the 4th wall meets that criteria, seems like something only fans are likely to come across.

@Fifths
I'll respectfully disagree there.
While it may not have a ton of spread outside the Brony-dom, Pinkie's fourth wall antics are practically unquestioned within it.
Any new or aspiring brony will run into these references quickly and often, and I think the article should be there for them to get some history and context if they want it.

The thing about fluffy ponies is there's really not a whole lot to say about them. In fact, the body of the article covering them is full of images. They certainly have significant enough spread around the internet, but so does the scootaloo is a chicken meme – which fits nicely in the reimaging article for the same reason.

I agree with your stance on Cupcakes and the Lyra plushie but I think they could still be done justice in a compilation article if the most emphasis is placed on them. Also I think An mlp creepypasta game page might be too specific. I imagine there are probably at least a handful more games like story of the blanks and Luna game out there, but I think at least a couple more would have to be notable to justify a page.

DeadParrot222 wrote:

Yes, MLP (as with any fandom) has a lot of inside jokes that non-bronies won’t understand, but the whole point of KYM is to act as a sort of encyclopedia or reference guide for people curious about a meme that they find on the internet at large.
For someone trying to research, understand, or join the group, knowledge of the most popular in-jokes is a very good thing to have and should be documented here as a sub-entry of its parent culture.

<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5XvBYfxU_dM/Sy-mnZQPvhI/AAAAAAAAGV8/oZhc3E2qhPc/Touche-8×6.jpg" height="250" / >

I think that's the best argument I've heard. I recognize the amount of information out there in the fandom, and one article (or even just a few articles) may not be able to concisely while sufficiently document the phenomena or their submemes. I think that point trumps Fifths' argument, because the intent of all (or most, at least) of the entries isn't to overwhelm KYM. It is to properly document happenings in Web culture (and seeing as I agree with DeadParrot now,) and to properly document happenings within Internet subcultures as well.
 
Also, never respectfully disagree when you can mudsling, ad hominem, and otherwise use the opportunity to insult one's mother for being a Nazi. Don't you know anything about Internetting?

@BSoD and MDF

I just uploaded an image from Nerf Now!! that uses Pinkie Pie breaking the 4th Wall out of it's original context and fandom. Don't think that quite constitutes significant outside spread in itself, but it's evidence supporting that spread and mutation is occurring.

@Verbose

Am I doing it right? =)
But, anyway, yeah, I think people tend to forget that KYM is first and foremost a site to document internet trends for others to see the origins, spread, etc. of their favorite memes or new ones that they've just found.
The pony article KYM is the primary reason I became a brony because of the interesting history and massive explosion of content that it described.
As the fandom has grown, I think it should become a hub for anyone curious about some of the inside jokes and themes that are now nearly ubiquitous for established bronies.
Some level of fat-trimming and organization will always be needed, but censoring popular material for being too popular won't help anyone.

All I can say is that this thread deserves one of these.

Awesome post. +1 for you.

I fully agree that we should document entries based on their spread. If they aren't big or notable enough for a seperate entry, see if they could do with a merge. If that isn't possible, deadpool. No questions needed.

What bothers me is the reason why people jump to the merge or deadpool conclusion. Both bronies and non-bronies alike make these comments on legit MLP entries way too quickly, often for the simple reason of "it being ponies".

I fully agree with merging something if that is a logical conclusion. But deadpooling or merging something for the fact that it's related to ponies. That's where I derp.

@BSoD

Pinkie Pie's 4th wall antics deserves a seperate entry. Pinkie as the character doesn't.

Characters like Derpy and Vinyl are unique. They were minimal background characters, yet the fandom turned them into what they are today. That's what makes them notable.

With the main cast, you have to look at stuff related to that character. For example Flutterrage &co. The normally timid Fluttershy, suddenly all bitching and full of rage. Notable within the show, but doesn't deserve an entry yet. Then the fans came along and exploded it, creating art, music, videos, fanfics, everything else, around it. And that's the point where it became notable and deserved an entry, but that doesn't make Fluttershy herself entry worthy.

It's also a good example of merge. Instead of making an entry for Flutterrage and Flutterbitch, we merged them. They have a lot in common and both relate to Fluttershy acting out of character. Similar to the Molestia & co. entry. All of those are related to Celestia acting out of character. We just gave Celestia herself a small header so readers know who she is, but that doesn't make the entry about Celestia.

That being said. I can't help but say I hate the Character Fandom entry, despise it really.

It's just an entry where we slammed together all the popular background characters that are only notable to the brony circles. Standalone, none of them would make a good entry. But combined they suddenly do? It's not like we're making an entry for the entire Homestuck cast, so why give MLP this privelege?

The thought of deadpooling it has crossed my mind multiple times. Maybe I'll throw it into discussion sometimes with some other mods.

But entries like the character fandom is where the problem lies. In the past, the Re-Imaginings entry was mainly used as a get-out-of-jail-free card. Whenever there was something minimal, we would dump it in that entry. One of the reasons for that was actually to avoid the tension surrounding MLP.

But that is not the correct way of thinking. If something is big, it should be given an entry. KnowYourMeme is here to document internet phenomena. Being ponies shouldn't stop us from following that purpose. The Pinkie Pie 4th wall entry was originally just explained very minimal in the Re-Imaginings entry. But I decided it was big enough for a seperate entry, which resulted in the entry we now all probably know of.

Platus already had the idea of using the Ponification entry for a same purpose. Just dumping all the mentions in the show that uses stuff from the mainstream in that entry. Things like the Star Wars ending and the Big Lebrowski ponies, the things you also saw in Mike's vid (if you watched it). Thankfully I was able to talk him out of that idea. Entries shouldn't be used as a cum memedump for small stuff we just want to mention somewhere.

@Lamslow

Fluffy ponies are HUGE in greentext stories. Just look it up on Ponibooru. The problem with it is that a lot of those stories feature questionable or explicit content, which stops me from uploading them to the entry. But trust me, it's huge.

@Deadparrot

Awesome posts.

I've read a few of the arguments in here, and there's one thing I feel like we might have to cover in the future. There are so many small entries, and there's a lot of talk about merging. The problem is that MLP has so many memes, some of which we haven't even bothered to look into, any way we do it, we'll end up with either a ton of smaller entries or a few extremely large ones, and I don't see any way we can balance it.

I think the Bronyspeak entry is a good example.

In my previous post I said how entries like Re-Imaginings were just a dumping ground for mentioning small stuff. The Bronyspeak entry was originally called "My Little Pony Catchphrases". The name already implies where I'm going at. The entry was becoming a dumping ground for small phrases and terms we just felt like putting in the entry. The extra examples section at the bottom of the page contained 18 or 21 vids (forgot) and even the seperate phrases/terms which already had seperate entries got a mention somewhere.

So quite a while ago already, I went completely over that entry. All small phrases that don't really have any notable spread got thrown out, same with the phrases and terms already explained elsewhere. Returned the video section to 9 vids. And some other stuff. A list with some details should still be in the comment section.

And now, it looks a lot better. It isn't a mumbo jumbo of small terms anymore. The entry got returned to what it should've been from the beginning, an entry covering the vocabulary of slang phrases used by bronies on the net. Only giving special mentions to the important stuff, like the ones mentioned in the KYM episode for MLP.

@randomman

It's true that Greentext stories are a big thing. What I probably should have said is between describing the predictable nature of them and the art trend side of fluffy ponies they're isn't much to say. I think the content constraint that the explicitness of the stories creates makes it appropriate for merging in a way, but I see how a general fanworks article might not work out.

There are quite a few things… however, I will say get this cat out of the bag and say that I do not agree that the recent submission you posted is particularly a meme in it's own right. Some arguments should be taken with a grain of salt however while others should be ignored (For obvious reasons of ranting, raving, and the foaming of the mouth). As far as the pony memes go, that is indeed a good question… Fifths Kinda said some of that for me already. In short…

It looks like the biggest problem here is that people have the impression that something with its own article means it must be something really huge. So fandom specific memes are suggested to be restrained under a bigger umbrella of an article of the fandom, when in actuality this is not necessary.

I wonder if it may be a good idea to create a 'fandom specific' category of memes for some of the less viral MLP memes. So people don't get the idea that we are trying to advertise tropes used by a single fandom as a something the whole internet uses.

But that said, I still think people who comment without thinking are a factor towards Randommans problem as well.

Looking back on that comment section, I found some perfect examples of the commenters I am talking about, check this guy out:

Oh look, another Pony “meme”, what a shock. Remember when Knowyourmeme was about MEMES? Yeah, those were the good ol’ days, before everything had to be Pony related in order to be confirmed in a few days, when Memes that have been unconfirmed for months get no attention whatsoever because the mods and everybody else has been brainwashed by Ponies. It’s sickening really.

Mmmm, Hmm textbook example right there. This is one of the guys who should have come in this thread to give his educated opinion as to why he objects towards Randommans article and answer to the points Randomman made. But he won't will he? He's just butthurt that something he doesn't like gets recognition and he just hates how much other people are liking it enough to spread it. He has no argument.

It's these kind of posts that I was trying to point out in my earlier post.

@Randomman & Verbose

Having seen more examples of the meme via myself and Verbose (thank you for the heads up) I'm fine with the article standing on its own. I still see many people requesting an article merge though but hopefully with more evidence of spread, minds can change.

There is hope:

At first, I thought this entry was redundant, but then I realised that believe I’ve noticed a little bit about Pinkie Pie in particular ‘Breaking the forth wall’ so to speak, across the internet.
I don’t know, though, I’m not a brony

Sure you aren't, Quantum Meme….sure (j/k)

To chip in my own thoughts on this:

Know Your Meme is a general internet documentation site. Thus, if there are a massive amount of pony memes, that just means that ponies currently have a large presence on the internet, which I would think is true.

Furthermore, the people that post in the comments saying "Omg, ponies are everywhere. This is annoying" brought themselves to that page on their own, so it's really their fault they see them everywhere to an extent.

To counter the argument that the pony memes don't last long enough to warrant an entry:

How long did Arrow in the Knee last? How long did Double Rainbow last? What about Bed Intruder? How long do half of the advice animal macros on the site last? Not very long at all, the first few lasted about a month, which is how long most pony memes last. A meme is simply an idea that spreads from one individual to another. KYM documents those memes that gain enough notoriety, regardless of how long it holds that notoriety.

Blue Screen wrote:

It looks like the biggest problem here is that people have the impression that something with its own article means it must be something really huge. So fandom specific memes are suggested to be restrained under a bigger umbrella of an article of the fandom, when in actuality this is not necessary.

Another reason that people seem to use is that the meme should be known outside of the specific fandom it falls under. If it is only a meme known within that fandom, it does not deserve a seperate entry and possibly benefits better from a merge.

I strongly disagree with this. Of course spread and other notability is important, but this doesn't mean it must have spread far beyond that fandom. But to avoid further repeatance of arguments about documentation and stuff, I checked up some other sub-entries under subculutres.

• The most notable example that questions the logic people often use on MLP entries was Pantskat. I doubt this has gained any spread outside the Homestuck fandom. Plus if you read through the entry, all notable examples of it are related to the Homestuck fandom or those closely associated with it. Entry Status: Confirmed

But taken the fact that we currently have only 2 Homestuck sub-entries, both confirmed, I looked up some examples on the most closely associated subculture. Pokémon. I'm only using Confirmed entries btw.

• Smugleaf
• Spirit Pokemon
• Digglet Underground

All are related to the Pokemon fandom and feature Pokemon, but each of these three also have minimal spread outside of the Pokemon fandom. It's still notable spread, but not much nonetheless.

So for example comments like Fifths and Octavian made in this thread. I understand their logic, but that doesn't take away the fact that some things simply should be documented regardless of their lack of spread outside a specific audience.

You can't check out everything the internet produces, even within the fandom you're part off. I have questioned Fluttercry multiple times as I wasn't really familiar of its spread. But when you look at the entry and the large amount of images and derivatives it has created, you can tell it's a meme. Same for Move Your Feet, I doubt many were even aware of its existance before we mentioned it on the frontpage a few months ago.

Also something quoted from Deadparrot's post:

KYM is to act as a sort of encyclopedia or reference guide for people curious about a meme that they find on the internet at large.
For someone trying to research, understand, or join the group, knowledge of the most popular in-jokes is a very good thing to have and should be documented here as a sub-entry of its parent culture.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

There's a reason the rest of the Cheezburger Network makes fun of us.

I frequent 4chan, 9gag, reddit, and most of the other 'meme sites' more often than i should.
The only time i have ever seen any MLP memes outside of MLP threads are in trolling attempts.
MLP memes are almost never seen outside of MLP sites/threads etc.
The pinkie pie 4th wall entry can stay IMHO, but some other entries need to go, just Look at the 'Discord' entry, how is that even a meme? he appeared in what, 3 episodes? Never seen anything about him outside of MLP threads/fansites.
/end rant

man… im gonna have a lot of reading to do when i get home…

KYM is to act as a sort of encyclopedia or reference guide for people curious about a meme that they find on the internet at large.
At large. That means not just in the Brony culture.

Since 70% of the internet is now ponies, it only makes sense that the site that documents the internet should also be 70% ponies.

First of all, I'm getting sick of all the Ponification videos and images in unrelated entries. There's so much of that content being put into those pages, they're overshadowing the actual content. All of this needs to be relocated to the Ponification entry.

Secondly, yes, there are too many Pony memes. Being on Reddit for most of the time, subreddits like /r/funny and /r/adviceanimals do not mainly consist of MLP memes (unless you are on subreddits like /r/clopclop). As such, the MLP entries are disproportionate to the actual trends of the internet as a collective. Only the most popular entrys should remain. Any catchphrase or scene that people really like should not automatically count as a meme, unless it has a following for quite some time. Therefore, deadpool or merge these lesser popular MLP memes. It is getting to frustrating seeing all these Pony memes being submitted to KYM.

@Stargazer
This is why it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with Bronies.
Just because the internet is 70% Ponies, doesn't mean that 70% of internet users are Bronies.
Only about 10% are, but they see fit to spread their Pony 'memes' and slogans like 'luv nd toler8 hurrdurr* everywhere on the internet.
The only reason so much of the internet is Ponies is because the Vast majority of bronies cannot comprehend that some people don't like the show and try to 'convert' people to it.
By spamming ponies. Everywhere
inb4yourjustaponyhaterhurrdurr
Yes. I am a hater. And I find you people disturbing

@ThatsNotCanon

Are you implying KYM doesn't document other cultures?

Homestuck? Pokemon? Sonic? Transformers? Furries? Otaku? Juggalos? Steampunk? We have it all here. It just so happens that the Brony culture has more to write about

@Stargazer

Slight exaggeration there buddy. MLP isn't that widespread. Despite the fact that widespread things on the internet appear on KYM, things that are widespread on KYM are not necessarily widespread on the internet

@ThatsNotCanon
Whoa, hey man, I was trying to be a joker, I don't really believe that or anything.

I realize that bronies do not make up that large a part of the internet, though their content does.

I can't really combat your claims directly, but to be honest, if it wasn't pony, it'd be something else. The people that try to shove things down other people's throats do it because they are insecure about themselves on the whole and it has nothing to do with the show itself. They'd shove anything down anyone's throat if it made them feel better. And the internet is MADE UP ENTIRELY of insecure people. Because internet. The MLP fandom is loving and welcoming (usually) to newcomers. Insecure people can and will be drawn to it and they will fight tooth and nail to defend it if they feel the need. It's the same with the furry fandom and you know what, probably every other fandom in the world. Ponies are just fresh and new and full of hype at the moment and as a result, all those insecure people are flocking to it.

Now I'm not saying that doesn't mean many people don't genuinely like the show. But when you say you're a pony hater because of people who try to force it on people like you, that just doesn't make sense. There are always people who will force anything on you, religion, politics, a movie, video game, tv show, whatever! It's not because they're bronies. It's because they can't justify themselves and their interests well enough to do so without making a scene about it.

@BSoD
I was trying to use a hyperbole, but apparently some form of Poe's Law kicked in…

This thread is deteriorating…. let's not start making statements we can't back up or complaining. It's not like Pony content is just going to disappear.
We do not just document MLP, and MLP is a small percentage of our entries. Also, users have the option to filter out MLP images. Our capability to document the internet as a whole has therefore not been stifled.
Please remain on this thread's topic, which is our policy on what does or does not constitute a valid entry.

Memes in general should be quite visible outside its community of origin.
I will list my opinions on this basis of the various MLP sub-entries:

1. Derpy Hooves: Clearly a meme, clearly visible outside of MLP sites, threads and communities. Has sufficient spread to stand on its own.

2. Wingboner/Clopping: This entry should be merged or deadpooled. It is not visible outside MLP sites, threads and communities, nor is it common enough to be seen by non-regulars. Should be merged with Bronyspeak as Clopping.

3. Sitting Lyra + Doctor Whooves + DJ PON-3 + Molestia: These should all be merged into the My Little Pony Character fandom. They lack sufficient spread/visiblity on their own.

4. Fluttershy Holding Things: I have actually seen a large amount of mutation of this, involving other characters from other shows. It is in this form heavily visible outside the MLP fandom. I propose renaming it to X reacts to, or something along those lines, and rewriting to demonstrate the additional spread.

5. Why Wub Woo Face: As an art trend, it is visible outside the MLP community. Should be kept as is.

6. Cupcakes: Not sure on this one. It has/had infamy in the MLP community, at one point to the extent that literally nobody within those communities wouldn't know of it. I'm going to say keep, on the grounds that it has/had such extreme popularity, and because it was previously known in non-brony communities.

7. Bronyspeak: Perfect as it is. Non-bronies encounter these terms, but for each individually there was not enough spread. Collecting them all in one place led to a solid confirmable entry.

8. Luna Game/Story of the Blanks: Not visible outside the MLP community. Not really visible within the MLP community either. These should be deadpooled, and no confirmable merger exists.

I'll post more later; brb.

The one thing i've hated the most is blaming everyone for what only some (or to be honest in this case, quite a few but not all) do. I am a brony, but I do not spam ponies, nor do I hate the people who hate on the show, but i can't stand it when people say every brony does the above. However, i know where the haters are coming from, quite a few bronies can't take criticism about the show, but then again, isn't it natural to do? There are quite few members of other fandoms who can't stand criticism against their fandom, and will neg haters of what they love. some also spam their favourite fandom. Take Nair for example: he loves guns and violence and spams it alot, and he can't take criticism against what he loves. to say this is strictly to bronies would be wrong.

tl:dr-To say spamming and being unable to take criticism is only evident with bronies is a false claim, it is evident in all fandoms, no exceptions.

sitting lyra is an art trend, and Dj PON-3 is a video trend as well as a character fandom

You can read enough examples why that argument makes no sense in the thread. Please don't let your personal opinion influence possible reasonable discussion.

@MDF

I'll run by each of your points on the seperate entries when you're done with them.

One thing though. Wingboner and clopping IS notable. Not to forget it's confirmed. It's kinda a pointless argument to say a confirmed entry should be deadpooled.

Plus as we said before, having spread outside of a certain group or fandom is NOT a must for something to be a meme. For example (again): Pantskat. I doubt that has any spread outside of the Homestuck fandom and it's probably limited within the fandom as well. But the entry is confirmed.

I'm purposely using a Homestuck example again as I know you like Homestuck. Saying against bronies that Wingboner/Clopping should be deadpooled is like saying against your own fandom Pantskat should be deadpooled.

9. Pony Reactions: This one is tricky. It is minorly visible from outside the MLP community. The page currently is just a dump of MLP reaction images. However, as some of these images are templates and frequently mutated, it works. It should be parented under Reaction Faces in addition to MLP. I can't really decide whether it has enough spread to merit an entry at all, so decide yourselves.

10. Flutterrage/Flutterbitch: Not enough spread or visibility. Deadpool.

11. Sweetie Derelle: Sufficient spread exists outside MLP communities. It is visible outside MLP communities, although within them it's not that common (ponychan primarily). I'd keep it.

12. Pony Re-imaginings: This article is just a total mess. Unlike Bronyspeak, this is just a collection of art trends and the occasional in-fandom joke. It does not display sufficient spread to justify an entire. +1 Deadpool.

13. Foreeeeever: Not sure about this one. It looks like a very minor meme, but I'm not sure if it has spread outside the MLP community. I'd be more inclined towards deadpooling then confirming, but again, I don't have the knowledge to make that call.

14. Discord: This displays no spread outside the MLP community. Neither does it demonstrate spread within the MLP community; it's just a collection of MLP fanart around Discord. Should be merged into MLP Character Fandom.

15. My Little Pony Character Fandom: A variety of in-fandom memes can be combined here to demonstrate enough shared visibility to warrant documentation. This is another great article.

16. Tom Dan: This lacks spread within the Brony community, and has no visibility outside the MLP fandom. Should be deadpooled.

17. My Little Pony Art Fads: See pony re-imaginings. This just doesn't demonstrate memetic spread of any kind. It's merely a few art trends that never significantly spread within their communities of origin anyway. Should be deadpooled.

18. Ponification: This should actually be mentioned solely within the main subculture page. Ponification is not a stand-alone meme, but rather an activity, of which similar variants can be found commonly within fandoms (trollifying something in homestuck, redrawing characters as if they were from other works, etc.) I'd recommend merging it back into the main MLP article.

19. Fluffy Ponies: This is a small variant of greentexting stories at first glance. However, it does provide a steady stream of significant mutation. It seems to be contained to a single 4chan board, but if evidence can be found of its spread to other communities I'd say confirm. +1 Research

20: Lyra Plushie: If this was an event entry, it would be confirmable instantly. It was not contained to the MLP fandom, it was visible across many communities; it has spread. Unfortunately the article focuses on the art trend which is not visible outside certain MLP communities, and may not last very long. +1 Work.

21. Pinkie Pie breaking the 4th Wall: +1 Work. It may have spread, but we need more evidence.

@Blue screen of death
No. I did not say that. Let's keep on topic here
____________________________________________
@Stargazer
KYM forums are srs bsness. Don't Joke on them
_____________________________________________
@Random21
I did not say all bronies. I simply said most of them. And no, other fandoms do not force themselves onto people the way that bronies do.
Give me one example of a 2-year flamewar that is comparable to the BronyVSanti-brony war that has been raging on teh internet since bronies came around. there are none.
_______________________________________________________________
Can we get back on topic now?
I agree with what the trippy-rainbow-frog(above me) said about the entries, except i haven't seen any spread of Pony-memes outside of the brony community.
Except in trolling attempts. That is what you people are the the rest of the internet: People forcing memes and trolling with your girls show

all fandoms will force themselves onto people and the Brony vs Anti-Brony war has 2 sides remember, Most Anti-Bronies force themselves onto others and vice-versa. There doesn't need to be a war for people to force their fandoms onto others. And besides, i wasn't responding to you, I mean the general opinion. Oh and a giant flame war of haters vs non-haters? Boxxy.

^Yes you were. I am the only person in this thread who has accused bronies of forcing their fandom onto others. and you typed:
'The one thing i’ve hated the most is blaming everyone for what only some (or to be honest in this case, quite a few but not all) do. I am a brony, but I do not spam ponies, nor do I hate the people who hate on the show, but i can’t stand it when people say every brony does the above.'
Also when has an anti brony forced anything? You can hardly force hatred of something. You can introduce a person to the Pony fandom but it's their choice whether or not they like the show.
And other fandoms don't force anything either

Please stop it guys. You're ruining a perfectly civil thread. Meme Research is supposed to be about improving the database. As you're not discussing that please go somewhere else.

No I wasn't. And you can force an opinion. Bronies can force their love for ponies and haters force their hate for ponies. And there will always be some fans who will force their fandom. All i can do now is repeat myself.
and MDF, i'm sorry, I shall stay focused on the topic now I've got that out the way

Alright then. Back to the topic.
We shouldn't simply stop making pony entries, that's for certain.
But what we should, nay, need to do, is have a major cleanup of the current pony articles.
I personally think that the majority of them need to be deadpooled due to lack of notability, but i understand some of them have a little spread outside of the Brony community. So the most notable ones can stay, yes.
So we need to merge/deadpool/delete/whatever a lot of the current entries before we go making or confirming even more articles, otherwise it just makes the site out to be even more pony-orientated than it already is.
Also, i'm sorry for the rudeness towards bronies earlier, I understand that this is a forums for discussing the current state of Knowyourmeme, not for voicing our honest opinions.

Thanks for keeping things calm, guys. It's not always easy to keep your head when pink elephants are flying around saying insulting things about your neighbors' dog (poor Rover…)

Be sure to look back at previous posts in-depth. It seems as if we're still disagreeing as to whether an entry should be confirmed if it isn't notable outside of a community but it has spread and notability within it.

I think the current stances are:

• If entries on memes within a subculture are not notable outside of the subculture, then they should either be deadpooled or merged with a more inclusive article.
  • If not, then you may have a lot of articles.
  • It may also encourage entries to be made on "things" (for lack of a better word) in the fandom that truly are not memes or notable events.
  • And it is annoying to many users who come to the site looking for a more distributed view of memetic happenings in Web culture.
• If entries on memes within a subculture are not notable outside of the subculture, then it can be left on its own as long as it has spread and notability inside of the fandom.
  • This allows for more comprehensive documentation of web phenomena, even within a culture.
    • If you want to know more about Homestuck and you don't know about Pantskat, then you could just find the related article of Pantskat on here as opposed to having to go out and do your own research. Many users come to KYM to keep from having to do that.
  • There are a lot of FiM entries, but like in StarGazer's hyperbole, much of the current goings-on on the web now (for whatever reason) involves ponies or matters within the brony fandom. Perhaps moreso than other fandoms at this time in the Internet's development.
  • People say that this is only due to KYM having a large percentage of brony users, but this likely means that either:

1. It's a more active/populated fandom.
2. Other fandoms are underrepresented due to less active members of those fandoms on KYM.

I'd also like to note that even if a specific entry isn't notable enough to be confirmed and we could all agree upon the fact, it could serve a function as a source of information nonetheless, as long as it is well-researched and well-written.

For example, the first entry I worked on was poorly written, lightly researched, and had little uploaded proof of spread/notability. Therefore, it was deadpooled. However, since I thought it was funny and did think it had notable spread, I decided to do some research, upload some images, rewrite some of the article, and asked RandomMan to edit it so that it was at least an article.

It isn't confirmed now, and I don't think the spread is enough for it to be confirmed. However, since it is seen on occasion, KYM does have a decent article on its site that people can go read to find out more about it.

If anything, I think FOREVER should be merged with Bronyspeak.

I only skimmed this conversation, but what I was thinking was brought up:

A meme can't be a meme if it isn't used outside of it's subculture. If it doesn't manage to escape the subculture it is just a "inside joke" and not exactly worthy of the title "meme".

The MLP Fandom is so huge it has hidden this line for many people, but the fact still stands; If it is not used outside of the fandom, it is not a meme.