Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

I just stumbled on this pic (well, the original one. This is is the KYMsafed version. Contact me for the unedited one. Also, I'm not sure I should have KYMsafed the nipples of the one on the left, but mods are serious business here, so I did):

And I remembered of an old thread that was here.
Now, I'm a really tolerant person. Maybe more than I should. But…
If you have a penis, you don't look like a woman and you are enough happy with your body that you don't want to do a surgery, you're not a woman! You're either a crossdresser, a trasvester or just a gay guy. Deal with it!
If you want to battle fore women's rights in every country of the world that's good, but you don't have to be one of them to do it, right? RIGHT??

What you need to understand is that gender goes far beyond biology and x/y chromosomes. Many of our trans/genderqueer users here will tell you gender is just as much a mental state as it is a physical one. Why do you get a say in what gender they are? I have an older brother who still has a vagina and has yet to get their boobs surgically removed, but it doesn't matter if I think that means he's still a woman or not, if I refused to respect his wishes and refer to him by his preferred pronouns that would just make me a big fucking asshole. You also assume that all trans people must go for full surgery to change their genitals and chest, which just isn't true. There are multiple levels of change a trans person can decide to go through. What the artist for the comic most likely did was get estrogen injections which would be responsible for giving her the "small boobs" she used to describe herself. I think if there's anyone who has to "deal with" anything, you're the one that has to deal with the fact that some people want to be seen as a gender they are physically not. Also I highly doubt the artist became a woman for the sake of fighting for women's rights.

There's more to it than just saying you're one. Trans people's brains are actually wired closer to the gender they identify as than the one that matches their body.

What about otherkin or transethnic peple? Do they get to define themselves any way they want?
Personally, I'm for it, if someone wants to consider themselves a dragon or whatever, that's fine by me.

Oh, look, it's this thread again.
I mean, A lot of things that had to be said about the "mental state" of transfolks have been said here times and times again.

Except that there's a (if not very clear just yet) scientific basis behind why someone could feel like a woman/man even though they have XY/XX chromosomes, respectively. Somehow, the DNA "commands" originating from the sex you are get lost in translation on the way to your brain developing the gender identity you're supposed to have based on that sex.
There are two solutions to this problem. One, we split your brain open and make the necessary alterations to correct the disassociation between sex and gender. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that… if we could do it, and without any long-lasting side effects. But as far as gender identity comes, this is what our understanding of the brain basically looks like:

It'll probably be at least a couple decades before this becomes an option at all, let alone the preferable one.
The other solution is obvious, because currently it's the only one we have- we'll treat you like the way you feel in terms of gender so you don't feel like shit, and if you want, we'll alter your outer body to match how you feel as well. Great. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason imaginable why someone would, on their own (obviously, if you're raised in a society that teaches you this as truth, then that's what you're going to think), come to be completely convinced that they are in fact a mythical creature trapped in a human's body other than, in my opinion, a psychosis. They probably need some kind of help.
Now keep in mind, this only applies to people who actually consider this as reality. There are plenty of others for which it's just a fun little fantasy, and they're perfectly aware that it's just that. No problem. That's an important distinction to make, because both those groups often call themselves "otherkin".

The difference between Tran-sexual and other-kin/trans-ethic is that male and females have psychological differences caused by hormones and brain differences. Males and females both have the DNA codes for the other sex in them. Thus, it makes sense that these mental aspects can be misaligned from the physical aspects of ones biological sex.

There is no active DNA that could cause one to have the brain of a wolf, for instance, and if there were, that person would not be able to speak, or function at all as a human due to them having the brain of wolf. They'd just bark and hunt down deer in the woods. Dragons don't even exist, so that is even more ridiculous. If they want to say they are the reincarnation of a wolf, or have the spirit of a wolf, fine, but that is a spiritual/religious belief (I use the term religious cause this line of reasoning requires belief in Souls), not a physical identity, and thus I will treat it as such, as something you chose to believe rather than something you were born like.

Trans-ethic is even more ridiculous, because it's not even a question of mental state. The difference between ethnicities are 10% physical, 90% situational. I know there is physical differences between people of different ethnicities, but they are miniscule and mostly skin deep. Most of what makes your ethnicity is where you were born and who your ancestors were. There is no mental and hormonal differences between Europeans and Asians like their are Males and Females. It all comes down to culture. How can you say your skin is white, but you have the mind/soul of an Asian? Appreciating another culture is one thing, but to say you were born mentally black or Asian is ridiculous and kind of racist.

While I know it is a logical fallacy and do not like to say it, I really do feel like there is a slippery slope thing going on here. With acceptance movements of homosexuality and transsexualism gaining momentum, these "special snowflakes" seem to want to hop on board. These identities, which are spiritual at best, wishful thinking at worse, are latching on to identities with tangible and biological causes, and somewhat pulling them down, transsexualism especially. With the awareness of other-kin and trans-ethnicity growing, people are lumping transsexuals in with them, as people who just want to be something they're not, and making transsexualism seem like a Tumblr thing.

Acceptance is a wonderful thing, but there are limits. People should be allowed to believe and identify however they want, however, that does not mean they have the right to be taken seriously. The reason I respect transsexualism is because people can be born with brains wired to feel like a woman's despite having a penis. Until, however, other-kin prove reincarnation exists and trans-ethnics demonstrate significant brain differences between a European and Asian, I will not recognize your identity as anything more than wishful thinking.

Tl;dr A man can be born with the brain of a woman, but not the brain of a wolf, so I am only gonna recognize the former as a legitimate identity.

HereWeGoAgain.png

Since there are so many walls of text all ready, i'll make this simple
Do you:
Have a vagina, have breasts, have a feminine body structure
If you awnsered yes to all three, then congratulations, you are female.
Do you:
Have a penis, grow full facial hair, and have a masculine body structure
if you awnsered yes to all three , then congratulations, you are male.

Are you female and really like trucks and sports? guess what, you're still female!
Do you also have body dismorphia? Well, you are still female!
Some people have body dismorphia towards an arm or leg, but you wouldn't call them amputees simply because they feel like they shouldn't have their arm or leg.

You are male/female based on physical features, not based on what you feel like. Gender is not a "real" word since you can not define it.
"Female gender is to like feminine things"
"Well, what is feminine?"

Exactly! I mean: The battle for gender parity is not helped by putting more shades of genders. Instead we should help people be happy with the person they are rather than the gender they belong or want to belong. The society must be corrected, fixed, turned better. But I don't think supporting these kind of spiritual feeling would help rather than messing up the things more than they are. We are made of flesh. We have a body, an appearance and phisical feelings. People judge other people by what they see and not what the other people feel like in the inside, because the human brain, male or female, is wired like that and needs of solid signals.
Besides: A woman will never experiment the pain of precocius ejaculation or of a kick in the groin, like a man will never feel the pain of a period or of a birth. Just to mention the most evident things.
You cannot empathize with another woman or another man on a same gender level if you haven't experimented certain phisical things only a female or a male body have. You can only offer your best emphaty, but nothing more.

Gender can't be defined? Are you sure about that? Because I've got one right here, straight from 0.9999…=1's Dictionary:

Gender (n):

1. sex
2. the mental perception of one's sex

You'll find that most, if not all, definitions in the "real" dictionaries (excluding the meaning relating to linguistics) are basically this.

While I normally really don't like it when people talk like this, in this particular case it's true- you really need to try and be more empathetic towards people with transsexualism. I get it dude, there's a lot of Tumblr bullshit, but this is actually legitimate. For your comment about those "walls of text", you really should actually read them, because you'll get a much better idea of what it actually means and the basis behind it.

If you have a penis, you don’t look like a woman and you are enough happy with your body that you don’t want to do a surgery, you’re not a woman! You’re either a crossdresser, a trasvester or just a gay guy. Deal with it!
If you want to battle fore women’s rights in every country of the world that’s good, but you don’t have to be one of them to do it, right? RIGHT??

… is this supposed to be an argument against Trangenders or an argument against SJW's who pretend to be Transgender just to cause a bigger "I'm offended" shitstorm?

Because if the later, give me a pitchfork I wanna make a stance with you. If not, still give me the pitchfork and I'll count to ten before I come after you.

Jokes aside; They are very different things, I assure you. I actually think most transgenders would be more offended by getting accused for changing genders for political reasons than being accidentally being called their biological gender, haha.

Also, there are other reasons for not doing the surgery besides "not actually wanting to be the opposite gender just refereed to as one." There are financial reasons, social reasons that keep the person closeted, family and business obligations, fear, and a ton of other stuff. What you are doing is what Jolly Jew did when he brought up the subject: Balancing your entire argument on a single very impractical scenario amongst several.

Though quite honestly… I can see how you gained that mindset. I hate what Tumblr has done to the meaning. They're the reason a lot of these talks are rarely ever taken seriously.

But if you are asking "What the fuck do I call a transgender person? I'M SO CONFUSED!!" I'll answer it this way…

Do What You Feel Like!

No really, as long as you don't mean it offensively, call the person the gender they appear to represent. They'll probably be friendlier or happier towards you if you identify/call them their preferred pronoun, but on the opposite end if they are offended by a mislabel it's likely because their entire identity hinges on the fact they are trans or "trans" and they have issues (and haven't conveyed themselves very well).

What exactly is "the mental perception of one’s sex".
Is it the sexual orientation or the fitting into social stereotypes?
Honestly the whole "female brain" and "male brain" thing makes sense to me as much as the "male lesbian" concept:

Damn, you're really just desperately looking for excuses here.

The battle for gender parity is not helped by putting more shades of genders.

Read a couple of articles or perhaps a book, and ditch the botched view instead of seeing the world in black and white.

Instead we should help people be happy with the person they are rather than the gender they belong or want to belong.

This is only working against you because what a person is, is also defined by the gender they identify as. If I identify as a gamer, being a gamer is part of what I am. A bad comparison for a topic like gender, but it gets the point.

The society must be corrected, fixed, turned better.

Yes, but not in the direction you wish it to be. Society must turn better by accepting the gender spectrum and accepting it's not as black and white as male/female. Critiques of standing social structures are always controversial so that’s why you're having so much trouble accepting these things.

I don't know why you would want society fixed because the gender spectrum is still hot debate and far from being accepted. You are part of the society that must be fixed.

But I don’t think supporting these kind of spiritual feeling would help rather than messing up the things more than they are.

Wow. Up next you'll tell us gender is defined by our chakras.

We are made of flesh. We have a body, an appearance and phisical feelings.

And in the case of transsexuality, physical feelings just so happen to not match physical appearance.

People judge other people by what they see and not what the other people feel like in the inside,

So if a male convincingly makes himself look as a female, you'll say they're a female (and vice-versa). If you're really saying here that gender is defined by how a person looks, then you're not even posing that much of a challenge to some transsexuals. So hey man, good for you for starting to accept the gender spectrum lol.

Damn you're really giving us a free argument here on a silver platter. Transsexuality has various stages of how a person can match their appearance to the gender they identify as. Even without chromosomes, some good make-up, a proper haircut, and the right clothing, can make up a quite convincing other gender.

Also clearly you have never seen an A+ trap before.

because the human brain, male or female, is wired like that and needs of solid signals.

It was literally just explained a couple of posts above yours that in the case of a trans person, the signals their brain receive happen to not match their physical gender. Their brain actually isn't "wired like that."

Fucking hell bro, actually read.

Besides: A woman will never experiment the pain of precocius ejaculation or of a kick in the groin,

Welcome to the 21st century modern surgery, where we can actually make that happen (and have made that happen).

Lol, get updated on the state of the world.

like a man will never feel the pain of a period or of a birth. Just to mention the most evident things.

Welcome to one of the biggest dilemmas mtf trans folks face. This is something they face the rest of their live and can't always easily accept, even a common cause of depression in those cases. You know, like when any normal woman hears that she can't have kids. Luckily we have adoption. Just because you can't bear kids, doesn't mean you can't get them.

Way to be a dick dude, way to be a dick.

You cannot empathize with another woman or another man on a same gender level if you haven’t experimented certain phisical things only a female or a male body have. You can only offer your best emphaty, but nothing more.

That's why it's called a gender spectrum. A trans person is perfectly capable of realizing they aren't the same as normal women, they're not retards. You really need to stop seeing things in black and white.

That's why we, as a society, can actually aim to accept them for who they are instead of being dicks and tell them to deal with it. Add to that that modern make-up, modern medicine, modern therapy, modern clothing, and modern surgery, can get us quite far in helping them accept their gender identity.

The challenge lies more with having those around them accept it, as you're once again showing us.

Before continuing I want to be sure we (me included) all know what a trans(exual) person. Trans is for "transition". Meaning it's not a permanent state. I know how it works. People that intend to change their gender have to pass through a long period and a series of hormonal cures to fix their appearance to their feelings, to get used to wear the right clothes and go into the right toilet (former
samples) before making the point of no return surgery.
"A trans person is perfectly capable of realizing they aren’t the same as normal women, they’re not retards." This is true for trans people looking forward to change their gender once and for all.
But what about the guy above?
He said he is happy with his/her not feminine body and implied that genitals are not important (I mean: Look at how he wrote:"Vagina (VERY IMPORTANT)". IT IS very important! It's the reason for why there are genders, or else we would be all ermaphrodites and a lot of concepts wouldn't even exist), which make me dubt he really want to change his body to adapt it to his "inner gender". So what? Why does he want to be considered a female? Because he doesn't fit all the male stereotypes? Because he is more accepted among females than among males?
Man! That would be giving up to the idea that all males have to be rude, macho and bond exclusively among them, hunga munga!
Can't a man be smart, sensible, able to befriend women without having to be considered and consider himself one of them?
Not even THIS guy see himself as a female:

So why should a real life person do?
Gender spectrum? That's like saying Rarity and Applejack belong to two different genders. And there are more extreme real life samples, without having to look too far from you. Or does it work only for males?

Hypercat, I hope you do KNOW that people are responsible for spreading stereotypes about that saint seya character because they see the character design as "feminine/gay". People make gay jokes about him. He doesn't see himself as "female", people do. People stereotype just as you do in this very thread.
But I think I understand what you're trying to say though. You're basically refusing to let go on an old traditionnal chromosomic view on sexes and genders and you're a bit amazed by "men" saying they shouldn't be called men and want to be called women even if they still have a junk down there. You don't like people challenging these views, you can't figure out how to react to someone basically saying "You don't need a vagina to feel like a woman".
Is that it?

As far as I've understood it, the common explanation given for transgenderism itt seems to be the idea of "brain/body mismatch". This implies two things, however;

1) Both a persons' body and their brain can be definitely categorized according to a strict binary scheme of male/female.

2) It doesn't matter what a person subjectively experiences, either they can be empirically demonstrated to possess the aforementioned mismatch, or they don't.

Both these premises imply that gender fluidity or gender spectrum are meaningless concepts (since they rely on the binary) The idea of this biologically defined transgenderism seems to be much-maligned atm.
An alternative description of transgender encompasses everyone who in some way are seen to challenge current cultural gender norms, something that does not require any specific biological condition.

"Trans" is not short for "transition", it comes from the Latin word for "across". Because of what they're doing, it makes sense for them to have the same prefix.

You also seem to have the idea that all transsexuals get "bottom surgery", which is not always the case. It's completely possible for someone to live as a woman and never get it done. (source: went through a long period of reading /r/asktransgender everyday)

I'd also argue that there is more than sex factoring into the idea of gender. Humans have been around for some time, after all.

When they say that a vagina is very important, I take that to mean that society sees the ideal woman as having one. That is the point of the picture.

Why do you assume that she wants to be a woman because she's not "masculine"? There are plenty of feminine men and plenty of masculine women. Transgender individuals are not "extreme" examples of that. They are not "desperate" people trying only to find friendship, and considering what trans people go through, that is an extremely ignorant view. That dude from Saint Seiya doesn't consider himself a girl because, no matter how beautiful he may look, he doesn't feel a discrepincy between how he feels and how he is percieved. (Also he's a fictional character but that's something else).

I barely even get your last paragraph, but let me try to explain. Gender spectrum is a curve on which people can measure, to some extent, how masculine and feminine they are. There's a few different parts to it though, so I'm going to copypaste this pic because it seems helpful:

As you see, there are three different parts to this: sex, gender, and expression. In your pony example, Applejack and Rarity are both biological women, so they would go there. They would also both consider themselves women as their gender. In expression, however, Rarity would be on the more feminine side, while Applejack would lean more masculine. What makes a transgender person not a "desperate" person is that while a trans person would have mismatched sex and gender, their gender and expression are most likely closer to each other than not; a "desperate" person would have matching sex and gender, but unmatching expression.

I think the main problems with your arguement come from an oversimplification of things, as well as a general lack of knowledge on the subject. My best advice would be to read up. Even Wikipedia is informitive enough.

Yes! It's not like having different genitals is as much having a different color skin or different hair.

I never said Shun was gay because I'm not sure too, I'm still investigating.
Though there are too many hints confirming the theory:

I just said he is as feminine as Fluttershy, in both appearance and personality (included the fack he KICK ASS whe he snaps off), but despite all he still consider himself a male and not a female that happened to be born with a penis, in a world where "media" say that women should have a vagina.

P.S. Some fans also claims that Shun is secretely a female (well. She should have worked her secret better then) just because they want to fap to him and not feel gay at the same time.

Man! There are more than fifty shades of grey there, if that has to be taken seriously.
I really need to read more about it, hoping to not get a headache in process.
For now my thought is still…

What about bi and pan people? Since they're attracted to both male and female, doses that mean they're considered both male and female too or am I missing something here?

What I said! More than fifty shades of gray.
Maybe over nine thousand.

Well, the body certainly can. That's the sex chromosomes- XX and XY. Oh sure, there are outliers, but they're an extreme rarity. But for brain, as they say, "the jury's still out"… way out. As I mentioned above, relatively speaking, we're nowhere close to being able to determine gender identity from something like an MRI. This being the case, all we really can do is take people's word for it, which of course from a scientific perspective is very distressing. However, we already have a fairly solid explanation for why they feel like they're male or female when they're DNA says the opposite. As for a "third gender" that falls between the two, though… it's not completely beyond the realm of possibility, but for that one it's much more an instance of "we'll just have to wait and see".

And for fuck's sake, I really hope you didn't just cite something in the SJ WIKI as an viewpoint that needs to be taken seriously. Come on man.

Eh? The genders you're attracted to has nothing to do with the gender you identify as….

It depends on to what extent you are willing to allow people to subjectively define themselves, opposed to the view that peoples' gender can be obejectively determined. I've seen quite a lot of people willing to accept the subjective perspective. It is certainly more "tolerant and open-minded", but it comes with its own inherent problems if you try to be consistent with it.

I'm not going to dismiss a viewpoint out of hand simply because it comes from people with whom I am likely to disagree with on many other issues.

Here, let me make this as clear as possible- gender, as defined by a mental condition, cannot be objectively determined yet. Neurology simply hasn't come par enough. But we can't just sit on our hands and wait, because these issues need attention now. So, in my opinion at least, the solution is fairly simple- recognize and respect these people's identities to a degree proportional to their scientific plausibility.
M/F Transsexualism: 9/10
"Third Gender" Transsexualism: 5/10
Otherkin: 1/10
Believe it or not, you don't actually have to be completely "consistent"- that reflects a black-and-white, overly simple view of the world.

And my problem with your citing of the SJ Wiki isn't that you did so in the first place, but the text that accompanied it:
"The idea of this biologically defined transgenderism seems to be much-maligned atm."
As if something in there reflects a widespread, real-world trend in opinion.

A bisexual person is no more transsexual than a gay man is female.

Heterosexuality = Sexual attraction to the opposite sex
Homosexuality = Sexual attraction to your own sex
Bisexuality = Sexual attraction to both biological sexes (Male and Female)
Pansexuality = Sexual attraction to all sexes and gender identities (Male, Female, and Trans)
Asexuality = No sexual attraction to any sex

Transsexualism = Perceived gender misaligned with biological sex

So gender is simply the sex you want to be?
That is what makes sense, and what i thought until actually talking to people about it.
So do you agree with the rest of what i said, or no?

So, vagina = female, penis = male
wanting a vagina = female gender, wanting a penis = male gender

wow
so whats all the long walls of text for? Its.. so simple.
I.. don't understand the what people are arguing about.

oh, and @RyumaruBorike
What, exactly is the difference between bi and pansexual?
There are only 2 sexes, I wouldn't call transsexual a 3rd sex. Combining 2 sexes into one, or changing one sex into another isn't really creating a new sex.

About the pansexuality thing….Some people of certain sexualities (heterosexuality homosexuality and bisexuality, etc…), simply aren't attracted to trans people for whatever reason. Plus, there are other genders (agender, some other gender that people can identify as) that people might not be attracted to either. Basically when you're pan you're can attracted to all genders and people who are transgender.

"Some people of certain sexualities (heterosexuality homosexuality and bisexuality, etc…), simply aren’t attracted to trans people for whatever reason."
…and?
Some people aren't attracted to people with blonde hair, or short people, or tall people, or etc. but they don't have special names. No one is attracted to EVERYONE.

Also.. what other genders?
What does agender mean?
How can you be without a gender?

Uh… I suppose you're much closer to getting it now. But it's a bit more vague than that. To give you a counterexample, someone who's a rampant ideologue and opposed to their own gender (i.e. "all men are scum, I wish I was a woman" or the opposite) may legitimately desire to have the opposite genitals. That does not make them transsexual. And on the other side of the same coin, a transsexual individual can be totally happy with their body, even if they're in the minority.
To state it as briefly as possible, what being a transsexual really means is that the signals your brain sends to your consciousness tell you that you are a specific sex, despite the fact your karyotype (and, yes, your genitals) clearly indicates the opposite.

"a transsexual individual can be totally happy with their body, even if they’re in the minority."
I hear that a lot, but if you are happy about your body, why would you change it?
I would think being unhappy about your body would be a requirement to be transgender.

anyways, yes, i agree with you.

Well, I'm Bisexual and I'm not sexually attracted to Transsexuals so…
Not to say that there isn't any controversy the LGBTQ community between the two definitions, but if you accept Transsexualism as a thing, there is a clear difference.

Regarding my text wall (if you read it) was about how Trans-ethnic and Other-kin are ridiculous and dragging Transsexualism through the dirt. People's brains being wired to correspond to a difference gender is FAR from thinking you are black when you were born white or thinking you are a Dragon in human form.

That's because stuff like height and hair color are way to small of a thing to pay attention to. Sexuality are based on the sexes and genders of people people are attracted to, not the different hair colors, skin colors, all that minor stuff. Being attracted to a transgender person is different then being attracted to a cisgender person because transgender people aren't completely their gender biologically speaking…

Also a lot of Pansexual people describe themselves as "genderblind", meaning that they don't really care about genders and are instead just attracted to personalities (dating-wise), or have something they like about all genders (sexual attraction wise).

When you're agender it means you feel like you are neutral in gender or don't have a gender. How can you be without a gender? It's simply when you feel like you don't have one. And….. That's really all there is to it.

And then there's genders that fall out of the gender binary thing, y'know, the third and fourth and fifth gender stuff…. Though a lot of non-binary genders could be made up by some Tumblr blog, the chances that some people are actually being serious about it aren't unlikely.

There's also genders like gender fluid (fluctuating between feeling male, female, in between, or nothing at all (as a little side note, a lot of gender fluid people say that in between days are very unpleasant), Demigirl (fluctuating from feeling female to feeling agender) and demiboy (fluctuating from feeling male to feeling agender).

Also, Transsexuality definitely isn't a sex because sexes involve chromosomes and genitals… There are only two sexes: male and female, but many genders. Like, if I was a MtF person, My sex would be male, but my gender would be female.

Gender identity, gender expression, and biological sex are different things.

When you look at the standard way: Having a vagina makes you a girl and having a dick makes you a boy. Simple stuff, no explanation needed. So when you look at it like that, it would make sense to assume that a trans person wouldn't accept their physical body for what it is and would feel more at home in a body matching their gender. I'm not gonna blame you for thinking that.

However, that would also be a bit too binary. Because you're forgetting that genes like to fuck shit up at times. This can go simple, like a woman with a moustache, to the extreme like a hermaphordite. Where would you place a hermaphrodite in the case of vagina=girl and dick=boy?

That's why it's smarter to cut these things down into seperate things: Gender identity, gender expression, and biological sex.

Would a woman with a dick be any less of a woman because she has a dick? That's when things can get complicated. I would say no, as I seperate those previously mentioned topics. You would probably say yes.

Accepting that gender identity, gender expression, and biological sex can have any type of combinations between the three is a big step, but that's the reality of things as they are indeed seperate things. Science has accepted this, but that doesn't mean humanity is ready.

@Cecaelia Girlie

• Sexuality are based on the sexes and genders of people people are attracted to, not the different hair colors, skin colors, all that minor stuff.*
  But.. people don't find other sexually attractive or not based on their gender or any other thought, they base it on physical features. Hair color is far more important than gender.
  Gender simply is what you feel like you are. Attraction isn't based on thoughts or feelings, but what people look like and what they have.

Also a lot of Pansexual people describe themselves as “genderblind”, meaning that they don’t really care about genders and are instead just attracted to personalities (dating-wise), or have something they like about all genders (sexual attraction wise).
Why does pansexual add in gender?
hetero, homo, and bi only regard sex.

Gender is in the mind, so its more of a trait. People's sexuality refers to physical features.

When you’re agender it means you feel like you are neutral in gender or don’t have a gender. How can you be without a gender? It’s simply when you feel like you don’t have one.
wtf does that even mean? How do i "feel" my gender? If you are ok with your sex, you are cis, if you are not ok with your sex, you are trans.

*There’s also genders like gender fluid (fluctuating between feeling male, female, in between, or nothing at all *
Again, wtf does that even mean?
If one day you are ok with your body, then next your not sure, and then the next, you hate your body, and this happens constantly, then you have MAJOR issues. that would fall into the people who think they are dinosaurs.

@RandomMan
I don't think humans can be born and stay alive as both sexes.. right? or am i wrong?

If you have surgery and get both a vagina and a penis.. then… well.. your a hermaphrodite, which mean you are both male and female, which goes back to what i've said, you are either male, female, or both.

I'm not sure what part you disagreed with me with?
I'm really not seeing the point you are making.
The best i can see if that you are saying is your sex, gender, and gender roles isn't always the same.. which.. duh.

The problem:

The solution:

And once again we come to the primary problem with this whole discussion: we won't know what conditions are really real until, like I said before, another decade or two of advances in genetics and neurology. So what is a society to do with all these people? My answer is simple to state, if not very simple at all in practice- make judgements on an individual, case-by-case basis based on the reasonableness of what is actually being asked.
Call me "she" because my brain tells me I'm a girl? Cool- that shit is easy.
Give me a monthly supply of birth control pills as part of my government-mandated healthcare plan because I believe I have an invisible uterus? Uh… yeah, probably not.
But of course, where to "draw the line" in between those two obvious extremes could be debated ad nauseum.

Also just to add one minor thing in this thread is that having gender dysphoria is not equivalent to wanting your genitals changed. It's more an overall body thing and an identity thing which genitals are usually a part of. For example, I'm trans, but to be honest my penis is the body part that bothers me the least. I feel uncomfortable about my hair, my waist, my legs, my face, etc. but to be honest I could live my whole life still having a dick and be happy. If I could get it magically and effortlessly poofed away that would be nice but other than that it's just not a focus of mine. Being trans is overall a really "grey" experience that's different for everyone. Some people like me just don't care and some others would want their dick chopped off no matter the cost and cry just from looking at it.

A hermaphrodite is an organism that has the reproductive organs of both male and females, and can act as both. Despite the term being used before (and still some now) a human hermaphrodite is impossible. What most people mean when they say hermaphrodite is intersex which is to have a mixture of genitalia, glands or chromosomes that make the male female distinction impossible. They aren't fully male or female, they might have a penis and ovaries, or a penis/clitoris cross with empty or open scrotum. They can't be described as male, female, or male and female. They fall outside the binary.

Yes

Do you even know what determining factors for identifying the sex of an life form is?

(hint: It's not a penis or a vagina)

Friendly reminder, if you're not going to keep with the flow of the discussion, then don't post. We want serious discussions, otherwise go to JFF or RR.

Edit: OP deleted his post but this goes to everyone. This also includes you, Hypercat. Try to debate rather than posting random images you got from google

Just by saying you are one? No. Thing is, that's not how gender identity works. It's far more complicated than just deciding "I want to be a girl!". I have transgender friends, and I call them by their preferred gender pronouns and understand them through the gender with-which they identify.

That said, I don't expect everyone to be able to look at transgender individuals and see them as what they identify as. However, if you make it a point to use the unpreferred pronoun or remind them that they aren't whatever then you're a jerk.

Like I haven't…
This is internet buddy. It's pretty common to use images to express concepts and feelings.
Ever heard "An image is worth thousand words".
I also appreciate the use of graphics by other people to explain things very quickly.
This one for example is very explanatory.

And made me think there is one character that could or might be in the middle of all that (genderqueen, androgynus, intersex, bisexual) and be cool anyway:

I guess the fact she (or he for the germans) is a furry does help.
No lie here. One thing I like of furry is it makes a lot of things looking good. I have seen a lot of cuntboys, dickgirls and guys pretending to be a female just by wearing female clothes (hello Birdo!). I have even drawn some for fun. I have even saw a manga (forgot the name) featuring a married couple with children in which she and he have their sex inverted (she has the bat and the balls while he has the hole). So I was not new to those conepts, but… I thought they were limited to the fetish fantasy realm like most of the furry and anime fantasies. And then I learned there are people like that in real life. I'm both amazed and perplexed at the same time because of all the issues that carries within. And also because we are here talking of gender spectrum while in most parts of the world women are still struggling for gaining the same person dignity of males. Like in our civilized countries since some centuries ago or even less. But I guess this gender spectrum didn't pop up all of a sudden. It must have existed since ever, hidden in by suppression. So, who now how many historycal character, many of which might have considered icons of manliness or female revolution, were far more complicated in their gender than how described in the school books.

Y chromosome = male
no Y chromosome = female
for humans atleast.

Thats the biological way, but if you have a penis, its kinda implied that you have a Y chromosome, or you had surgery, since i don't think anyone has ever been born with a penis, and no Y chromosome.

Albbet de la Chapelle is one of the 5 in 100,000 born with XX male syndrome

"About the pansexuality thing….Some people of certain sexualities (heterosexuality homosexuality and bisexuality, etc…), simply aren’t attracted to trans people for whatever reason. "
Yo.

"Just by saying you're one"

Seriously? That's what you believe?

Fuck cis people.

The edge, it burns.

I thought I'd throw in my input as someone who has a non-gender dysphoric identity disorder. I'd rather keep the exact nature of the disorder a bit under wraps, if you're really curious you could probably figure it out after some persistent searching. Anyways…

Your identity is something that is something very internalized, and you don't have control over (although the intensity of that "identity" can vary). For those with dyphoric identity disorders such as gender dysphoria, this manifests itself in discomfort with one's body because they don't "feel" like they're in the right body. To the person who has the dysphoria, that disconnect is very real and is at least omnipresent in a neutral fashion, and it can manifest itself strongly in a negative fashion as a form of discomfort. In extreme cases, this leads to people trying to purposely maim themselves to achieve a form more comfortable with themselves – the most commonly reported form is attempts to amputate the penis, but it can also occur with amputation of limbs, or intentional self-induced paralysis, blindness or deafness, in the case of BIID. So yes, it's something that really should be taken seriously.

There's a lot more to gender than just "saying" it though… there's a feeling behind it. In fact, that's where the "dysphoria" comes in – transgender people experience dysphoria because of the fact that their internal bodily identity doesn't match with their physical body. I feel physical dysphoria with part of me because it doesn't match what the internal side of my body needs. This dysphoria isn't always constant because, well, at least in my case, I get distracted or it manifests itself differently, or I'm able to act on my dysphoria before it becomes actually difficult to handle.

So it's definitely a real thing and if someone claims that they are a woman, even if they don't look like one, they probably have something in their brain that makes them a woman. This is backed up by neurological studies that show "gendered brains". Very interesting stuff.

There's also the issue with "looks like a woman". Biologically, I'm a woman, but I tread very closely visually towards androgyny/male. This is fine for me since I identify as andro and it doesn't really matter what people call me (unless they try to discredit my physical characteristics for debate, SJW style) but people often don't believe that I'm biologically a woman – to the point where it caused serious doubt in my blind boyfriend, who was warned by his aunt that "that Rachel is a trap". lol, no lie.

Call me ignorant, but in my opinion, there's really only 5 genders, which occur across a spectrum. Male, female, androgynous, agender and other (often called genderqueer). Gender is internal, sex is external, and gender exists on a spectrum that can shift its position sometimes – although against the will of the individual.

So in a way, yes, and no. Yes, in that if someone claims they are a woman, 99 times out of 100 they identify as a woman. No, in that you can call yourself a woman and still not actually be one. I always try to keep myself in the benefit of the doubt and accept it at face value.

Now what's interesting is if you discuss non-gender dysphoria as well. This would be your BIID – you've probably read articles on people who try to self amputate, this is what we're talking about here. Now what's interesting is that this form of dysphoria doesn't manifest itself as a gender identity – most people who have BIID identify as cisgender – but rather a physical "disconnect" with a part of their body. A part of their body "feels" like it shouldn't be there, or it should be disabled. I haven't talked with many people with this disorder but most I've seen don't identify as "an amputee" or "a paralyzed person" or whatever, but rather feel uncomfortable with the affected body part. So interestingly, it seems like gender dysphoria is unique in this case, in that it hinges much closer to an actual identity issue as opposed to just some sort of issue in the brain that causes a particular body part to not connect up properly.

In my humble opinion, what this implies is that gender is something that's evolved in our brains due to a social pressure of identity, while something like BIID is a genuine mis-match that exists. A person with gender dysphoria was essentially born with a brain that shouldn't be in the body it was sexed with. Studies haven't really been done in this particular field but no evidence suggests that gender dysphoria exists in animals – I wonder why?

What implications does this have? I kind of wonder if the prevalance of gender dysphoria in humans is indicating a shift away from humans being a sexually dimorphic species – a species with two distinct forms for the sexes. Sexed roles in humans are quickly losing their importance due to the evolution of society, which is a breeding ground for issues like this – those who had gender dysphoria in the past were likely not selected due to not being able to perform their sexed tasks as well due to the dysphoria, but since these tasks are now delegated to society in general, these individuals are able to pass through the filter. This may move humanity towards a gender-neutral brain. Very interesting stuff.