Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

Hello, it's me again. Not talking about the 2016's Meme Man himself, Donald Trump, this time. Nope, this time, it's about the anti-meme machine Vladimir Putin, and Russia as a whole.

So recently I watched a french documentary (that I wish I could translate) about Russia's long time leader, Vladimir Putin. To be fair, I didn't knew much about the man until watching it, and while it had obvious biased against the man (but still fairly explaining how he became so powerful), it was still a very interresting documentary as an "introduction" to today's Russia.
Now, with recent events surrounding the country and its leader itself, both in Syria and the USA, I was wondering what was your opinion on these 2 ? And how you see the future between Russia and the world ?

Like my other thread, no bashing on the political figures, nor the countries (Russia and others) and their decisions. We're just here to discuss about Russia and Vladimir Putin.
So be constructive, like always.

If you want to watch the documentary in french, search for "Le Mystère Poutine" ("The Putin Mystery). If I got the time and skills to translate it, I will. But for now, let's talk about Russia and Putin.

Lately i was introduced to a certain text, called Foundations of Geopolitics , published in 1997, written by Alexander Dugin. Take it as an urban legend if you want, but despite being created 19 years ago by someone that most people (even people deeply involved in academia) would not have ever heard, it's an eerily close tale of recent events.

Here, a lengthy description of the contents with the page where they can be found . Uhh, i put the link mostly as an index. Now i need to find a pdf of the book, i'm almost sure i saw a link on reddit but i didn't check, someone help.

Among more things:

• United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe (hello Brexit)
• Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "“Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible. (hello Eastern Europe. A frigid place forgotten by God as usual, huh?)
• Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis". (Things go smooth , Iran has ideas to join the Eurasian Economic Union )
• Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. For instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics." (see that Trump is skeptic of NATO ? btw, does someone have a more recent article?)

Just a few days ago :

• Russia should manipulate Japanese politics by offering the Kuril Islands to Japan and provoking anti-Americanism.

For the note, Japanese pundits/rougher politicians are currtently mostly anti-China and anti-Korea rather than anti-USA, but details, details, probably someone shall "fix" that.

In my opinion, Putin's the only man who stands up to the batshit insane things the "West" has been doing freely unopposed, so I view him as a very positive force in the world. And regardless of that, he's a brilliant man, taking everything into account. Probably the most prominent statesman of his generation.

As for whether he's good in terms of actually managing Russia, well… He's as good as they can get. I know Russia and Russians very well, and she just wouldn't be able to function in any other way. People there are very unique in the way they do things. Russia also has a lot of minorities that are veeery different from ethnic Russians, meaning that any wrong move could mean a war, or collapse of the country. Let's not forget, Russia is surrounded by enemies (NATO), and potential enemies (China), and is at a constant risk of Islamic extremism from the south.

The most important thing of course is that Russians like him. And, well, for the good reasons. Russia just wouldn't have survived another Yeltsin.

All I can say is, he's either gonna be our best friend or our worst enemy.

I'd rather see Putin and Russia be on our side in the next war instead of being the enemy of it.

@Memchiki

>brutal dictator who regularly assassinates his political opponents, denies even the most basic freedoms to his citizens, and blatantly seeks to manipulate world events to his own ends
>"very positive force"

dude wat

@Festivized

>Brutal dictator
Bullshit. You should try not to fall for propaganda THAT much.

>Denies even the basic freedoms
You're not even trying now. Where do you even get this from?

>regularly assassinates his political opponents.
He literally has no political opponents in Russia. And people who claim they are (they're not, literally no one knows about them outside of Moscow) aren't even in jail.

>Very positive force
Well yeah, it's not good when you completely disregard the international law, murder, manipulate, ruin countries, overthrow governments, drown whole fucking regions in blood like NATO has regularly been doing completely unopposed. Oh, and completely dominate the mass media and spread lies and propaganda. Now, I'm not claiming Russia is good, but in the current situation Russia is a good counterbalance.

I understand not liking Russia or Putin, but what you wrote is just bizarre.

One thing I'd like to add is it does seem like Russia is portrayed a little unfairly in modern media. I mean I know they're not the best country in the world and everyone shouldn't love them, but for Christ's sake they aren't the USSR anymore. I believe all the hate Russia gets might be a little unwarranted.

Part of that mentality may as well get backed up by current events, what with some people thinking Russia had some hand in hacking the elections. The email thing could be true but hacking votes? That may as well be a flavor of crazy right there.

crazy despot whose ambitions include undermining democracy wherever possible in order to achieve closer ties and constant flexing in order to keep eastern european countries from never sleeping, and any kind of compassion shown towards him is just likely to be used to fuel an advance into more small bordering states.

basically if you live anywhere in eastern europe and you love democracy, he is your enemy at all cost. If you live anywhere in europe that isnt britain and you love peace and stability he is also most likely your enemy too.

The CIA claims are shaky rn, but regardless if putin wanted trump in power or not, it shouldn't be a sign that america is gonna turn a blind eye to any other imperialistic displays of him in the future.

If you don't believe me ask any post-USSR state how much they would want to be in russia's hands again

The Russian apartment bombings were shady as fuck and likely show what kind of man Putin really is.

At the same time, I feel like a lot of Ruskies legitimately like him. Russia's not the superpower it once was and I get the feeling, much like Iran, they desperately want to get back to the "glory days," even if those glory days really weren't all that glorious for the average Russian.

Blac Youngsta said:

ask any post-USSR state how much they would want to be in russia’s hands again

The Baltic States absolutely despise them, Poland hates them, and the Ukraine is, naturally, quite pissed these days. Kazakhstan's the only one I think wouldn't really care a ton and that's only because they're basically still Russia--they get a tron of economic assistance from them, have a ton of Russians living there, and are far more known for their Russian stuff (Cosmodromes, ecological disasters, etc.)

He is popular because of the beginning of the post-USSR (90's)was disastrous to Russia, when he arrived to the presidency the economy got better, OK for Russia but then he started to want to bring Russia to the "glory days" again, interfering with Ukraine, Georgia and stating to challenge America.

I would say that he is a authoritarian but to fair Russia got better with him,that's good but lately because of sanctions that they got because of Crimea there was a slow down (if not a decrease) of the economy.

Russia and the US would be a good combo now that Trump is president.Working on something like Fusion Energy or actually stopping ISIS,i could just imagine the American F-35 Lightning II's in the air and the Russian T-14 Armata's on the ground deployed together.

An unrealistic thought but i would love to see them do something amazing if they partner up

I don't like Russia or Putin tbqh. I don't like the state sponsored homophobia for example. I've seen documentaries and even experimental videos were people tested Russian people general reaction to seeing 2 men holding hands in public for example and one of the people in the video was pushed into a corner by a large russian man. They also received several hateful comments.

LGBT activists have been screamed at and called faggots in the open while they were having a eulogy for LGBT people who had died. It was a documentary on VICE. No one cares about them in that county and when PUtin was asked to comment he said "Oh Russians are just against paedophilia. The gays can be gay but they have to stay in the closet about it and like George Michael and he's gay so there;s no problem! :D". Notice that they often group homosexuality and paedophilia into the same category.

There are countless instances of brutal violence against these people. Urine being poured over them, raiding bars, being beaten up in suburbs, it boils my blood to no end. Russia admits they have to stay in the closet though they attempt to rationalise it my saying it's a """comfortable closet""" while backing it up with the worst "science" this side of the known universe.

Russia was responsible for the utter nightmare that is Eastern Aleppo that they attempted to rationalise as fighting """""terrorists"""" while ignoring the shear brutality in the area. When Sergei Lavrov was shown a picture of that small boy in Aleppo covered in blood and ash he just said "The people of Aleppo need to separate themselves from the terrorists" and left it at that. How? WHen they can't even move freely in the area and can't predict where planes are going to strike.

I don't think the west is perfect either and I acknowledge the political interest underlying all of it's attempts to keep "order" but does that mean Russia is any better? NO! In my opinion, they're all the same in the end. Sergei Lavrov once complained about the west intervening in foreign nations as if Russia wouldn't/ or doesn't do the same lol. NONE OF THESE COUNTRIES OPERATE UNDER ETHICS AND NEVER WILL. It's just that if they told the world what they really wanted, the whole planet would turn into Mad Max over night. Individual politicians might legitimately care, but that means NOTHING unless it affects whether their country's interests are protected or not.

In my opinion, the only difference between Russia and the west is that the west makes a bigger effort to portray itself as gentle or diplomatic while Russia doesn't even bother as much with that image.

All of geopolitics is one giant garbage fire where no one is in control, everyone is stubborn and selfish. Of course I'm don't think these world leaders are sitting in some dark underground base cackling with glee as they fuck billions of people over worldwide, they're just trying to navigate an insanely complex political landscape born from accidents while trying to look out for their own country AND stay in power by keeping their supporters happy leaving very little breathing room for anything else.

I'm not to well read on politics honestly and I am very biased against Russia because of Aleppo and the LGBT thing jsyk.

I am fully in support of Putin and Syria's Al Assad. they are the ones fighting the terrorist and militants who have been proven to be funded, supported and supplied by the west and its allies to destabilize Syria and remove Assad so that they can continue to exploit it. They paint Assad as the bad guy for trying to defend his people and country from the influence of other nations and they asked Russia for assistance and have already taken back the city of Aleppo and the peoples there are celebrating their victories.

I am in full support of Syria and Russia in this entire conflict and nothing will change that because I am fed up of western media trying to paint Syrian's as the evil ones and destroying our lands for the sake of their own greed and personal agenda's to divide and rule over them.

I honestly don't know much about him, so here's my probably 2000% invalid opinions

While I am glad Putin's trying to fight ISIS and he generally seems like a smart guy, I can't stand him personally

He's Literally Hugo Chavez, cancelling elections, Doing totalitarian shit and Removing all hopes for democracy in the country but Russian and a Former KGB Agent, The Motherland hasn't seen a guy as totalitarian as him since the czar and stalin

Also as an LGBT Person[I'm Bi and more attracted towards dudes.], While I heard he's not actually a homophobe himself, the fact he is doing nothing to prevent the rampant homophobia and anti "Gay Propaganda" [AKA Censorship of gay characters in media] Law in Russia angers me severely.

Though ultimately, I see the US Being allies with him at the end of the day being an overall neccessary evil, becoming enemies with him would lead to another cold war at best, and considering the US and Russia already have the most nuclear weapons in the world, It's a horrifying thought.

So overall I Hate him, but unlike Hillary I understand It's a neccessary evil, So I'd rather just wait 30 years for when that fucker is finally dead. if only I wouldn't be at that point 40 and with a broken penis at that time.

Interesting fellow. He seems to have a good handle on power politics both at home and abroad, and a genius for public relations. So long as the majority of Russia is behind him, so be it. He has their mandate. Anything that angers Western observers becomes irrelevant. Any Western idea that was rejected in his rise to power is seen as rightfully abandoned. Neither Putin nor Russia will hear otherwise. There's something I admire in that, in terms of craft and stubborness if not morality..

The way LGBT people get treated over there is disgusting, anyone different really. Black football players get racially abused by their own supporters for crying out loud. And Putin doesn't do anything about it. So yeah, I don't like Putin. I don't like the way he gets treated like a god either.

Putin honestly to me is a Bond villain. A villain in which there are people who can't help but love him, despite how corrupt of a person he is. We talk too much about the likes of Kim Jong Un and how silly of a villain he is, while glossing over the stuff Putin has done. It'd be neat to be around the guy for maybe a week and wonder what he's like outside of politics, but considering his track record, I'm not sure (I know he likes The Beatles).

The KGB was a state-within-a-state during the USSR. The KGB had privelages that no citizen and most policicans wouldn't even come close to having. Access to western goods, to western media, travel, pay, first to receive any food, luxury goods, basic goods etc. The KGB saw the end of the USSR a decade before it happened and it planned accordingly. Today the KGB is known by other names, but it still exists.

It is into this world of absolute privilege that Putin was recruited straight out of school. And it was this world that came close to collapse because of American optimism, idealism, and the spread of American style democracy.

If you look into Russian history, and especially Russian culture, the Russian character is continually highlighted by a massive inferiority complex. This complex creates great suspicion of foreign culture introduction to Russian society. Some of Russia's greatest literature has themes of anti-Western attitudes, and a near idealism of Russian folk-culture. Read Dostoevsky and you'd see the clear resentment towards the French language, mannerism, and culture infiltrating the aristocracy of Russia during the late 18th century, and 19th century.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, those in the upper echelons of the KGB realized that the gravy train was, for the meantime, over. Putin saw what Russia was transforming into, the poor handling of transition from a Communist regime to Market Economics, coupled with massive bureaucratic corruption created a massive problem in the 90s, for Russian citizens. Putin cashed in on the discontent, and the perceived failure of all-out Democratization of Russia.

The upper eschelons of Soviet Society to this day despise American idealism, and our culture. They don't care much for the idea that democracy, liberalism, and Westernization is spreading. They don't like the idea that their ideology is on the decline.

So in this context, Putin has clear goals: fix the demographic problems of Russia (for the most part annexation of Crimea/Georgia/Transistria was a great way in achieving this. The second issue is to dissolve the NATO alliance, which continuously undermines Russian foreign policy. The third major issue is to perpetually emberass the US, and ESPECIALLY undermine and embarrass the US version of democracy and our election system.

Putin is able to achieve this through a facade of being anti-Western, while protecting the interests of "Russia" and "Russians". The tight control that the Russian government has over it's media reinforces that view.

The reality is that Putin doesn't give a flying fig about the Russian people, or anyone else, what he cares for most is his own power, and the power of those that prop his administration up.

Unfortunately, too many people who are disgusted with the broken promises of progressive policies, the high cost of spreading democracy, the disenfranchised people who haven't been able to adapt to globalization, Putin is a symbol of that fight.

The reality is grimmer: they'd be the first to be lined up against the wall.