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The Importance of Karma: Do We Really Need It?

Last posted Aug 18, 2014 at 11:33PM EDT. Added Jul 19, 2014 at 04:44PM EDT
112 posts from 45 users

RandomMan wrote:

The commentators on our site nowadays call "BAN ALL ADVICE ANIMALS" and "STOP DON" helpfull comments.

The tumor of the comment section is not so much the voting system as it's more just the comment posters. A new system will only fix certain consequences, but doesn't get rid of the source. It's a decent idea, but I fear abuse and that it won't change much.

Too slightly step off topic I honestly think this sort of thing is the biggest division between your view of the site and mine. While you and other relatively newer mods always think that change should come from users, I think the change should come from the site. It's just like back when we were debating new boards and the consensus was that no one would use them, but now we have them and besides the odd few they all have new posts daily.

We're not sociologists or psychologists so I'm not sure how you are so quick to say that those comments are considered helpful by our commenters. I mean, a + and a – are pretty vague, they are just about positive and negative feelings that cover a whole spectrum of thoughts. I mean, with the system I've proposed, we're more specific about what we're looking for. Also, we can take the auto-hiding out so that controversial but valid opinions don't get buried.

If you truly believe that what we need to do is change the users, I would be more than welcome to hear some ideas, but as I see it, it's more feasible and practical to just change the site. But if you would like to just shoot down the ideas of others without proposing your own, who am I to stop you?

Last edited Jul 24, 2014 at 03:38PM EDT

I think I agree with Blubber on this one. Expecting users to change their attitudes is really just a near impossible idea. I mean, with things like "OH DON'S AT IT AGAIN HURR HURR" and "+99999 DEDPOL", we can easily enforce the rules to ban that outright, and that's what I'm doing anyway, but with the Anti-SJW and all who agree with them stuff, you can't really enforce that. I brought this up multiple times, and is my main argument against comment section karma, so I'm not going to rehash my argument again to save me time. Blubber's idea has faults, like I feel like receiving an email to hide comments will only end up with the suggestion and editorship request emails, but I think it's more practical than trying to change user's attitudes.

@Loli
Lol you wish.

Hey, if I'm a minority, go ahead with your idea. No reason to fight my own battle.

However, if we go with your new idea, can I suggest something: Comment sorting options. Allow to sort comments by most recent or most helpful (or other).

I'm actually still against removing it too but I felt kinda silly about defending it much until now.

However to my recollection most things that are downvoted to hell have usually just been troll posts, things one could reasonably assume were troll posts or unpopular opinions that – let's be honest – probably could have been worded better where people brought their anger in seeing so many people disagree with them to their comments, which I think effects how many downvotes they get almost as much as what side their on.

I feel like this was combed right over in earlier posts in favor of overusing "circlejerk" as a buzzword.

If we don't want stupid comments to be showcased, then maybe we should just remove top comments, since they're usually inadvertently decided by who posts first anyways.

Last edited Jul 25, 2014 at 01:25PM EDT

Coming in late to this discussion, but I'll throw in my two cents. In general, I think the karma system is fine as it is, and I'd like to see it kept. As much as I love to see my karma stats on my wall, if people think those should be removed or cut back to six months' worth, that might not be unreasonable. I think the real value of karma is in how it allows users to semi-moderate posts. Moderators shouldn't be deleting shitposts under their sole judgment, but if consensus buries a post, that seems fine to me; after all, popular opinion is important and you can still choose to look.

One thing that I think is an easily confused issue in this thread is that we really have some separate issues: karma in the forums and karma in comments. I don't think it's being made real clear when and how these two issues are being dealt with separately. (And the as yet unspoken third issue of karma for media items, which I'm assuming everyone is fine with?) I think before anything changes, we need to be clear as to what we're talking about and what we're not talking about.

Brucker wrote:

Coming in late to this discussion, but I'll throw in my two cents. In general, I think the karma system is fine as it is, and I'd like to see it kept. As much as I love to see my karma stats on my wall, if people think those should be removed or cut back to six months' worth, that might not be unreasonable. I think the real value of karma is in how it allows users to semi-moderate posts. Moderators shouldn't be deleting shitposts under their sole judgment, but if consensus buries a post, that seems fine to me; after all, popular opinion is important and you can still choose to look.

One thing that I think is an easily confused issue in this thread is that we really have some separate issues: karma in the forums and karma in comments. I don't think it's being made real clear when and how these two issues are being dealt with separately. (And the as yet unspoken third issue of karma for media items, which I'm assuming everyone is fine with?) I think before anything changes, we need to be clear as to what we're talking about and what we're not talking about.

since comment karma doesn't show up on your profile, so the primary topic here is forums karma.
karma for media is the most useless and useful at the same time imo (yeah i know, i could word that better, but let me explain):
the only thing it does is show you boobs and asses first if you sort by rating. i think it's meant to show how relevant the picture is for the entry, but it's more of a facebook-like system with a negative option, since media with lots of negative karma won't be hidden or anything, maybe they'll be deleted in a gallery cleaning after a while though, dunno.
i'm just saying, that i haven't seen "gallery karma" directly affecting the gallery's content, reposts are likely to get upvotes too if they aren't uploaded within 24 hours after the "original", of course you can sort by score, but in a great many galleries that'll just let you browse thourgh the softcore porn before for ages before you get to the "normal" stuff and finally the somehow related internet paraphilia, 3edgy and off-topic posts.
so yeah, i'm mostly fine with the gallery karma as it is,
sorting comments by score could at least give the score system in the comments some purpose, other than just showing the two highest rated reaction faces and hiding stuff, comments on pictures and videos are rather meaningless anyway, comments on entries, well, the best case scenario is disscussion about the entry's topic, but now that mostly only happens with events or persons, meme entries usually get the "lol it's like mem xy, +1 dedpul plz" treatment.


on another note, i chuckeled when randomman brought up the issue of background dick sucking (no offence, since i don't really know you).

To roll back on the idea of removing the anonymous factor and revealing the names of the voters:

Since it's a bad idea to give users the ability to do this because it causes infighting, what if we just gave the forum moderators this power so we could identify abuse and act on it without causing a fuss?

However, we both will have to make the forum mods take a oath of silence to this and consider excessive asking/pestering of the moderators as "Baseless Reporting", which I think we made a warn/bannable offense.

Last edited Jul 25, 2014 at 09:30PM EDT

Karma was initially made as a way of measuring the contributing quality of a post, image, or what-have-you, and by extension, the contributing quality of a user as a whole. But it is almost never used this way in practice, instead being a like/agree/dislike/disagree button. Rather than find some roundabout way of insisting on its "intended" use, it should be designed around its expected, proven use. So, since it is/will inevitably be used as an opinion button, it shouldn't be allowed to affect opinions expressed: remove its ability to bury. Also, replace top comments with a sorting system similar to media galleries, with "newest" being the default. This will put majority and minority opinions and views on more equal footing, with no systematic negative consequences for having a minority opinion, apart from letting it be known that one's opinion is in the minority. For when a post/image doesn't contribute, breaks a rule, or deserves the intended use of a burial for whatever reason, a "bury" button may be used instead. This button could, upon use, bury and hide the offending post for that user immediately. After reaching a threshold of buries, the offending post/image would be buried for all users by default (likely using the same threshold as downvotes use in our current system) and appropriate moderators would be notified. After judging it according to the rules/guidelines, a moderator may choose to unbury the post/image site-wide, though individual users may still choose to keep it hidden for themselves. An image that has been buried can be covered with a thumbnail in the same vein as the NSFW/Spoiler thumbnails. And unlike the regular voting buttons, moderators CAN see who clicks "bury" in order to monitor and warn/punish abusers.

As for user stats, karma could be remembered for each of the different contribution categories that are capable of receiving votes, for people who like/want more specific stats. Also, "karma received" should be hidden from other users in order to make it more difficult to use it as a bragging tool over other users. For all anyone knows, that screenshot of your karma is either shopped or had the page source altered first. That way a user's character would also have to be judged per post rather than a blanket judgement of "good/bad user" from the karma total. Users could still use "karma given" as a way to gain insight into a user's personality/activity (i.e.: this user seems contented or ambivalent in regards to the quality of images, but has strong opinions in the forums, agreeing as much as he seems to disagree, and etc.).

In this way, user opinion could be further divorced from implications of post quality. People can still use the voting system to express their opinion simply and anonymously, and the community still has a way of self-moderating bad or unhelpful posts in a way that has a much lesser likelihood of being misused or abused than the voting system we have now.

Also, this is not as important, but, displaying total upvotes and downvotes on a post at the same time, instead of displaying just the difference until you mouse over, would help keep hotly contested posts and mostly ignored posts from being mistaken for each other at a first glance.

I have to agree that karma is not really the smartest idea I have seen. I get the point of it, but a lot of people on this thread made a lot of good points and I think that karma should be given less importance, if not removed all together.

And don't even get me started on Slime Cap

Karma is a conspiracy. It was created by KYM Zionists in order to regulate the opinions of users; that way, they'd be more susceptible to mind control.

But in all serious, karma would not be an issue on KYM if the majority of people would stop being so self-conscious about their opinions.

Skeletor-sm

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