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So after seeing that in banksy's video about Gaza, – the yYoutube are full of just ISRAEL WAR CIMINAL. ISRAEL ARE NAZIS and quite of few of these comments on KYM.

I just want to ask, what do you people think Israel is supposed to do against a hostile city state that generates terrorism and fires missles at civlillian population.

If Israel does nothing, then their people die, houses get destroyed. and the population lives in constant fear of terror. – Which was the case prior to the first operation in 2008.
Whe argument that these are "home made pipe bombs" is completly none-nonsensical, if they hit a building they kill or severly injure their residents.

If Israel retaliates, then it is declared an evil aggressor, murderer, and a genocidal nation.

If israel lifts the blockade like Hamas demands. then getting weapons, rockets and materials for offensive tunnels will be incredibly easy to get and they could worsen their terrorism against civilians hundredfold.

If israel will try to use surgical strikes against the rocket launchers and terrorist nests without air or artillery support. they will practically send thousands of soldiers to their deaths, as they will fall to ambushes from every window, street corner, alley, boobietraps as well as enemy combatants dressed as civilians.

Israel can't negotiate with Hamas for anything resonble as Hamas clearly states in its doctorine that they will not suffer israel's existence and it must be destroyed.

So what the hell is israel supposed to do?

P.S a mod told me before not post threads about this topic because "too many people get butthurt and immature over it" but i hope that my thread being more practical, will prevent said problems

Israel, having being backed by America for the last 40 or whatever years did nothing but consume Palestinian land. Declaring yourself independent didn't help either.

A classic case of "the cornered rat bites the cat"
>"city state" you even said it yourself. You might as well have given the Palestinians a matchstick box and told them to live in that.

Israel should of tried to integrate a bit more instead of being such a bunch of special snowflakes due to you-know-what-a-caust

I think people tend to just get but hurt no matter what a country does. No matter what action Israel takes, a shitton of people will incessantly criticize them for it. I for one just think Israel should do whatever they have to to protect their citizens. If innocent people get hurt along the way because of it, that is tragic, but one can't realistically expect them not to defend themselves. The fact is, Israel exists in a part of the world that really doesnt generally like them, and they sit right on top of one of the most contested places in the world, and people are bound to get hurt on both sides. Demonizing Israel for taking action to protect themselves is just unreasonable.

I support both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Well, if Israel would just stop taking Palestinian land, perhaps everybody won't be so angry about it. This conflict was inevitable the moment it was decided to create Israel using Palestinian land. A lot of people have lost their lives and homes since then, and guess what? most of them are palestinians. I can understand why factions like Hamas and the hizbullah are constantly at war with Israel though i do not approve the way they retaliate (like taking civilians as hostages and shooting missiles indiscriminately).
As far as it is, the only reason Israel is still here is because The USA continuously backs them up no matter the situation.

Samekichi Kiseki said:

This conflict was inevitable the moment it was decided to create Israel using Palestinian land.

It was actually inevitable when the Arabs rejected the Partition Plan and instead opted to go for the "drive them into the sea" route. I always find it ironic that they beg to go back to the partition plan now after having so thoroughly rejected it with three wars.

Your daily reminder that Palestine was originally created using Ottoman Southern Syrian land when the Ottomans lost WW1.

The original Partition Plan was extremely unfair, and allotted the to-be Israelis a disproportionate amount of strategically superior and economically advantageous land for their relatively minute population.

I don't have much of an opinion on the conflict as it stands in the present day, but the origin of the conflict was not at all the sole fault of the Palestinians.

Also, jolly jew thread :D

Jolly Jew Threads are best threads.

Personally, i'm in support of the palestinian people since by the end of the day, they are the true victims of this conflict.

Well for one, stop the further creation of settlements on Palestinian land. I don't see how the demolition of Palestinian homes is justified.
I also find issue with all the restrictions imposed on those in the West Bank and Gaza.
But I do see why this is a problem, Hamas and the PLO aren't the best governments to negotiate with. Especially when Hamas is responsible for these attacks.

My point however still stands. You can't expect to play the victim when the Israeli government consistently restricts the lives of Palestinians and advocates the displacement of them.

WRONG.

the Arab's would receive the very fertile Judah and Semariah territories as well as other very lush and easy to farm areas like the gaza strip.

The jews in return would get a country cut into 3 chunks, with a big part of of is the bloody Negev which is 95% desert.

the Arabs had a better deal completly. but even if it somehow didn't satisfy them. in 1938 the pil comission suggested another deal that the Arabs get nearly all of palestine for themselves and they STILL rejected it.

also, you should be reminded that Palestine was just an ottomane province for this whole time, with no real nationality or ethnicity occupying it. it was very thinly populated. by ALL religions and feuding Arabic tribes. so there was no "stealing palastinian land" because there was no "palastinian" nation

somehow everyone decided to attribute the Palastinans' complete refusal to live in peace with jewish neighbors, as the jews' fault. (west bank was occupied by Jordan for 25 years, gaza, by egypt, the Palestinians never had a problem with that)

but it doesn't matter what happened 65 years ago.

i ask what to do NOW.
"stop taking Palestinian land" is not a solutions because Hamas declares that all of israel is "palestinian land, including Tel aviva and Jerusalem.
negotiating with them is IMPOSSIBLE unless its cease fire terms. Hamas declared multiple times that it's ultimate goal is to DESTROY ISRAEL.
so stopping form building on the west bank. which was done already several times in the past. does 100% NOTHING.

so any other ideas?
because right now, as long as Hamas is in charge. nothing is going to change

Demolition is only of the homes of convicted murderers. it is to dishearten anyone who will try to follow his path. because more often than not. these racist murderers are usually supported by their family members and neighbors.

Restroctions area imposed because the folks in israel are not big fans of dying horribly.
in the early 00's when these restricitons were not imposed. buses and resteraunts blew up nearly every week by suicide bombers and terrorists. and of course, the random stab attack occured almost every day.

so to make sure this crap won't happen again, Israel is forced to keep all the Palestinian civilians in check to prevent any more potential murder.

it might be bad, but i think that the right to live outweights the right of freedom of movement. yes. it's sad. but people in israel want to get out of their homes without being afraid to be murdered in the streets just for being Jewish. especially in their own damn country.

as for the creation of settlements. i fail to see how building houses on a random grassy hill is a crime. especially when it provides the local Palestinians plenty of work and money.
in the middle of jerusalem. there's a house owned by a swiss guy, with a swiss flag flapping above it. never saw anyone getting angry over it because "he took jewish land" because that would be absurd.

in the case that the land the houses were built will pass under to Palestinian control, nothing is supposed to change other than where the tax money goes to.

Israel is playing a match of King of the Hill and saying that everyone attacking them over it is wrong for doing so.

So the Jew state just sits there like a great big American funded stubborn shit whining about being hated and attacked from every side and you actually wonder why that is? this confuses you?

this idiotic malformed accusation about israel deserves no reply. especially considering your profile image.

also. it has nothing to do with the question in the OP.

if your answer to it, is that we should all just mass migrate elsewhere or just simply die, then NO THANKS

everytime i stumble across a israel/palestine conflict thread, the opinions are rather black-and-white: one of them both is always at fault.
the topic is always very hard to discuss, especially with muslims, germans and jews, since there's a lot of emotion involved. antizionism might not equal antisemitism, but i've met very little popel who i'd describe as antizionists but not as antisemites.
about the rocket attacks, yes they happen almost daily, there's no denying that. but the iron dome is doing well, and whenever a rocket actually hits the ground, it's somewhere far from big settlements. these rockets are very inaccurate and aren't a big threat for modern israel, nonetheless it's a continuous terrorist attack on israel and there's no tolerating such a thing.

the founding of israel is a problematic topic too, but now that it's there, there's no use in denying israel's right of existence, and the arab countries surrounding israel only worsened palestine's situation by denying the palestinians civic rights in their countries and going to war agains israel multiple times.
the circle of hamas terrorism, israeli counterattacks and growing hatred towards israel (leading to more support for the hamas) will repeat as long as hamas exists, you can't ask israel to just ignore the continuous missile attacks.

on the other side, the isreli government must stop building settlements in west-bank, there's no denying that these settlements are against the rights of the palestinian people and that israel has no right to build them and it is obvious that they're build with the goal of annexion of west-bank. israel has a lot of different political, social and economic problems to deal with, instead of recruiting jews from all over the planet as settlers. but as long as israel has a right-wing government it won't stop building these settlements, the israelis have a tendency to vote right-wing after terrorist attacks, and the military attacks on gaza also reinforce netanjahu's support in israel.
i also find it regrettable that the state of palestine still isn't recognised by germany, the united states and some other countries.

tl;dr: israel must stop building settlements in west bank, but the palestinian people must realise that hamas is only making things worse for gaza.

as i already said. Hamas doesn't care if settlements are built in the west bank or not. their goal is to destroy ALL of israel.

in fact there was a time when construction of jewish houses was put under freeze as written in this article: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-offers-settlement-freeze-in-return-for-recognition-as-jewish-state-palestinians-say-no-1.318447

and yet hamas still continued to fire rockets. so saying that stopping from building new houses doesn't work.

btw. the israeli government is not recruiting anyone to settle in the west bank. the people who settle there do it independently.

i never said that stopping to build settlements in west-bank would stop hamas .
still, israel has no right to build them, and they are heavily state-subsidised. lots of living space for little money plus tax benefits, how is that not recruitment of settlers?
of course the government doesn't directly force people to live there, but it's made extremely attractive and for many people who want to live in israel, it's the only plece they can afford live.
apart from israeli nationalists, the settlements very attractive for poor israelis because of the financial advantages, since living in (actual) israeli territory is very expensive.

also the expansion of settlements has been continued although the government declared a freeze multiple times.

i have a lot to say about legitimacy of building houses in the west bank but it will be going off topic.

right now. whatever is being built or in the west bank has nothing to do with the missle lauches from Gaza, it is the center of attention in the worldwide media.

so again, what the hell is israel supposed to react to missle attacks from hostile terretories WITHOUT being considered and genocidal war criminals?

Why can't the media expose Hamas' radical religious tyrany and horrifying crimes aganist their own people?

Man, sometimes I think the world would be better under the British Empire. At least they were a stabilizing force.

This is all I am going to show.

Please fuck off from this site and take your brainwashing propaganda, your cancerous ignorance and hypocrisies with you.

I would do far more than that to secure my country from attack. I would expect my leaders to do the same.

so asura brought his friends here to karma bomb me and derail the discussion into a flame war.

is he actually trolling or being a complete idiot?

Natanyahu didn't assasinate anyone. do you know what assasination is?
with that logic you can say that Churchill assassinated 10 million germans and itallians

Do you know that at least 1500 people out of the 2145 you brought up were Hamas combatants and collaborators?
Do you know that the remaining is 600 is resualt of collatoral damage from israeli RETALIATION to constant missle attacks intetionlly aiming civillian targets?

Of course you do, you just don't care.
so how about YOU take your brainwashing propaganda and toxic behavior off this site. im seriously considering to report you to a forum moderator.

@SacremPyrobolum.
Actually the british left this place BECAUSE it was going unstable, and some of this instability is their fault as well.

clears throat

Let me correct your numbers there pal. Everyone read the info on the link on the actual numbers.
This information is confirmed by the United nations.

Quoted:
"According to the UN, at least 1473 of the dead were civilians, including 501 children and 257 women, with another 379 individuals yet to be identified. According to PCHR, 1660 Palestinian civilians were killed, including 527 children and 299 women, while Al Mezan reported that 1666 of the dead were civilians, including 521 children and 297 women."

Please continue to vomit out your bullshit. I also have relative, who actually work inside the united nations, who can send me even more proof and facts to counteract your "arguments."

Whose the stupid troll now you ignorant fuck?

Also, no, I did not bring people in to just karma bomb you. You do that to yourself with your stupidity.

asura i reported you for toxic behavior. this is the SERIOUS DEBATE form. not the "insult spewing" forum

i have little to say to assholes like who rain down people with swears just because they made a mistake with numbers.

my point still stands and you decided to completly ignore it: all these deaths (of which again, 1600 were hamas COMBATANTS, not counting the ones working in their missle factories, tunnel diggers and such), were a result of RETALIATION.
Retaliation of hundereds of rockets deliberatly aimed at civillian targets

if israel is not allowed to retalliate because it will instantly be considered a genocidal serial killer. what the hell its supposed to do if they don't want their people murdered?

@Asura

Please fuck off from this site and take your brainwashing propaganda, your cancerous ignorance and hypocrisies with you.

Whose the stupid troll now you ignorant fuck?

This isn't the type of attitude we would like to see in Serious Debate

You are a good debater, Asura. And I am positive that you can make your point without the ad hominem. I understand that JJ's numerous threads on this subject must be frustrating you, but this is still the board where constructive discussion is a must. By now you should know how to deal with JJ's threads. Perhaps with less seriousness than you are giving now

You have every right to counter and reject JJ's points just as JJ has the right to start threads he feels passionate about. And you certainly don't have to like him. But JJ does have the right to ask for mature behavior in threads that are in Serious Debate

@JJ

I'm not taking your side BTW. The reason you are getting so much flak is because you are throwing out your own personal perspective on the subject but your own perspective is not enough to change anyone's minds.

These guys want supporting facts and evidence. You just aren't supplying enough. Try going out and getting more supporting materials for your claims rather than kicking and screaming when people don't believe you.

In serious debate, it is expected that you can back up anything you say with reputable facts. Unsubstantiated claims aren't welcome here either.

Continuing to only create fallacy and controversy instead of debate can get your thread locked. You've dealt with that before. You should know how it goes by now.

@Asura: Well look at you trying to take a hit for the team and all that to try and provoke him into a derailment. Impressive. Wait, no it’s not. Slander is a socially suicidal tactic that is self destructive in any argument. You could have saved your breath and ignored JJ and watched this thread sink to the bottom of the ocean.

@JJ: As far as I am aware, you where told to take the creation of Israel Conflict discussions elsewhere due to the repetitious nature of your threads and your increased aggression as these threads go on; And this thread has shown to be no exception. If you want people to take you seriously Stop Using the Victim Card repeatedly to justify slanderous rhetoric, don’t try to control an arguments direction when a very related topic is brought up, and for gods sakes take some time to fix grammatical mistakes and/or typo’s.

I don't think this thread has that many more saving graces. If it turns inflammatory again I will make a move to lock.

^
Just lock the thread before this shit gets worse please.

ok then. you want proof? here we go.

here's pieces of Hamas charter: http://www.standwithus.com/booklets/HamasCharter/

"israel will continue to exist only untill islam will oblitirate it"

from this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Hamas:

According to the BBC, Hamas views the attacks as legitimate because it regards the whole of historic Palestine (roughly coterminous with Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jordan) as Islamic land, and thus sees the state of Israel as an occupier.

Hamas views all of israel to be occupied terretories. therefore, ceasing from consturcting houses in the west bank WONT DO ANYTHING for them.

according to the article about the Gaza-israel conflict – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict#2014_Gaza_War

IDF launched the opperation IN RESPONSE to the Hamas rocket attacks.

so that bares the question, again – How is israel supposed to respond to the constant rocket attacks without being considered a war criminal?

considering the fact that their rocket launchers are all over the place and stationed in tight urban areas:

im not using the victim card. im stating simple facts – Gaza shoots rockets at israel. what the hell isreal supposed to react to this without upsetting everyone?

P.S sorry for bad formatting, the forum has no tools for it, and i have no idea how to properly use textile

@Asura

Don't waste your time on this thread then, bye.

This thread gets one chance to get back on topic. Respond to JJ's above post, appropriately

I'll probably regret this, but in the interests of continuing the discussion, I'd turn that question around and ask, what is the benefit of the Israeli administration doing what it's doing currently? Every time an "operation" happens, you have a massive, brutal slaughter of Palestinian civilians, Israel finally pulls out, you have a whole bunch of people who have seen their friends, husbands, wives, and children murdered by a hostile foreign state, they're obviously super angry, and then what do you know, the rockets start again. This has happened multiple times with no sign of stopping.

Clearly, what the Israeli administration is doing isn't actually "defending" Israel in any real sense, since it's not making things any safer for anyone involved, all it's doing is successfully massacring people, which in turn leads to more people being pissed off enough to become terrorists, and thus the cycle of death continues. Which, incidentally, is perfect for the right-wing Israeli government, since being in a constant state of war is a convenient way of remaining in power.

ok, you want to know what israel should do so they don't look so bad when fighting the hamas?
well, how about acknowledging palestina as a state, that'd be a good start.
stopping the occupation of west-bank wouldn't do harm to their image too.
IDF can kill as many hamas terrorists as they want, but doing it the way they do now (not caring for casualties, bombing the whole place and then leaving, without giving a fuck what happens there after they've left) there will be no end to it (except when the whole palestinian people will be exterminated, but i still like to beleive that this isn't what the israelis really want, though the election of radical right-wing, palestine hating parties doesn't really seem to justify that).
those left behind in the ruins will be left with nothing than hatred for israel, and the constant quassam attacks will continue.

@twee.

Israel actually gains a lot form the opperations. in the last operation they destroyed 37 tunnels intented for terrorist attacks in israeli terretory.
they also caused considerble damage to Hamas which in turn is now afraid of shooting rockets at israel and tries its best to prevent other gazan factions from doing so.

@ivди тдвтov

as i already said, and proven. even complete israeli withdrawal and destructon all of the jewish homes won't change Hamas attitude towards israel. they will shoot rockets regardless.

according to the wiki:September 2004: 75% of Palestinians support "the firing of rockets from Beit Hanoun"
2004, before any real millatery operation in Gaza. considering this. its pretty safe to say that the Gazans were full hatered already, and that the wars, didn't change their views.

as for bombing without care. that is plain wrong.

according to the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shuja%27iyya#cite_note-Perry-7

"Flyers had been dropped over the neighbourhood, urging residents to flee"

they also used the "roof knocking" system to warn civllians to get out of the area before the bombings commence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

so israel does care about the civllians.

the civillian casualties are unavoidble, becase, as i said before, the rocket launchers and weapons storages are place in tight urban areas, and sometimes in civillian homes –

the biggest problem lies with the fact that the mass media decides to just blame israel for the destruction. and not Hamas, which foces israel to strike and uses its civllians as human shields – like this – http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4340.htm

so its impossible to prevent rocket fire from Gaza without striking back.