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What are your thoughts on sex specific dress codes, and should it be considered discrimination?

In the US, having different dress codes for men and women is completely legal and not considered discrimination.. but isn't treated people differently due to their sex the very definition of sexism, which is discrimination?

an example of dress codes some places have;
"Men must have short hair; women may have long hair, but must pull it back. Men can't wear makeup, but women must. Men can't wear facial jewelry. And, although the general clothing requirements are the same, women must now choose between a particular brand of slacks designed for women or a particular skirt; men are still free to wear any black pants and white shirt they want."

I would honestly just like to know what the defense to discrimination like this is, that isn't an "appeal to tradition" fallacy.

I'd say it's not enough to show that the uniforms are simply different- you also have to prove that they are inherently unequal, and without any reasonable purpose behind it, to win a discrimination case.

Private businesses can demand you dress however they want as long as the rules are the same for all guys and all girls. You can't start your shift at Sephora (beauty supplies) if your face ain't on. They pay you to look and act how they want you to look and act, not because they personally owe it to you to provide a paycheck so you can exist. People really seem to have forgotten that lately.

Well, if one person is told they have to wear makeup, while the other person doesn't, or one person has to have short hair, while another person doesn't, it sounds kinda unequal to me.

The topic isn't about if dress codes are ok, but sex-specific dress codes.
anyways, dress codes are fair as long as they are equal, just like any other rule or code.

Not really. Unless there's a sex specific dress code like this:

All women have to wear tight miniskirts with wet shirts and men can wear whatever they want

Then that might be a bit sexist, but you wouldn't expect to see that unless you worked at Hooters or something anyway.

Overall I don't see sex specific dress codes as a major problem. As Lisa said; business have the right to set a standard of presentation for their employees

Everyone is equally uncomfortable in their dress codes so I don't see the problem.

Also,
"men are still free to wear any black pants and white shirt they want.”

Oh no they aren't. If you show up in a white sleeveless shirt and black sweat pants you're not gonna be paid for long. Heck, if you show up in anything but black slacks and a white dress shirt, which have no brands visible on them as well, usually that's a violation.

And back where I worked, that means you get your pay cut for the day to teach you a lesson over it.

^ shit when I worked in retail they would just send you home, forget cut pay, you get no pay at all, try again tomorrow.

{ The topic isn’t about if dress codes are ok, but sex-specific dress codes. }

I said as long as all the guys have to follow the guy dress code and all the girls have to follow the girl dress code. They can't demand certain guys wear pants and certain guys wear shorts.

@Butterscotch (of Death)
So a little sexism is ok?

@Black Graphic T
>Everyone is equally uncomfortable in their dress codes so I don’t see the problem.
could you explain what you mean by that? because that isn't even remotely true. Like, do you really mean that when the dress code is to wear a skirt, that everyone is equally comfortable/uncomfortable with that?

@lisalombs
So if i owned a restaurant and my dress code was:
White Americans (male and female) – White t-shirt and dark colored pants
Colored and non-americans (male and female)- pink dress or skirt
that wouldn't be discrimination?

That is literally the federal definition of race discrimination.

Guys and girls are different and that's okay. Say you want your girls to wear makeup, should all the guys have to wear makeup too because having different dress codes for different genders would be wrong? If I want my girls to wear skirts, my guys are gonna have to wear skirts too because everybody must literally look like carbon clones of each other or it's just not fair and equal?

Men and women are physically different. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that, as long as it doesn't put an unreasonable burden on one or the other.

"could you explain what you mean by that? because that isn’t even remotely true. Like, do you really mean that when the dress code is to wear a skirt, that everyone is equally comfortable/uncomfortable with that?"

Try wearing a dress shirt and black slacks in 98 + degree heat, in a store with broken AC, and tell me about how much more comfortable it is to wear that instead of a skirt.

I don't think the majority of people like to wear dress uniforms at all, both men and women. There are a few who do, but probably not a lot. So to me, if it sucks for the majority of people, both male and female, there's really not a discrimination problem at play.

@lisalombs
So why is it ok to separate the dress code by sex, but not race?

@Farm Zombie
So what is the anatomical difference for the need to put a different standard on hair length, makeup usage, and pant/skirt attire between the sexes?

@Black Graphic T
I don't think you're seeing it the right way.
There are a lot of people who are not comfortable with sex's dress code.
Why should a women who feels uncomfortable wearing a skirt have to wear one, while her male co-workers don't have to? Is that not discrimination?

"I don’t think you’re seeing it the right way."

Same to you, pokemon. Same to you.

"There are a lot of people who are not comfortable with sex’s dress code.
Why should a women who feels uncomfortable wearing a skirt have to wear one, while her male co-workers don’t have to? Is that not discrimination?"

Okay, this statement right here's got to be a joke. You want to know why?

"women must now choose between a particular brand of slacks designed for women or a particular skirt"

You, in your very opening statements of this posed issue, said it yourself. Women can choose between Pants or Skirts.

You're now trying to back-peddle from that to "Women can only wear skirts" because that's an easier point to defend.

You really should have gone with trying to let men wear skirts in the workplace. Especially since that would have aligned well with your opening statements more. Or were your opening statements actually the ones that were inaccurate?

Please, by all means, enlighten me.

@Black Graphic T
The example in the first post is just an example to get the thread started. That isn't some universal dress code at all.
I'm not debating a specific dress code of a specific company.
I'm seeing what people thoughts are on sex specific dress codes, whether it be light or extreme differences between male and female codes, and trying to explain why they are bad and discriminatory.

So a little sexism is ok?

I inferred this where exactly?

I pointed out that you'd have to go to some place like a strip club before you start seeing really disproportionate dress codes but in a place like that, the disproportionate dress code is the whole point of that place.

Sexism in a workplace is never okay, but you'd be hard pressed to find a business with a sexist dress code. I don't see how simply having one gender wear dresses and hair ties while the other wears suits is sexist. In the professional world, you just dress to a reasonable standard and that's the last thing to be worried about in the workplace

Can you show some examples of people being so uncomfortable with dress codes? Where I've worked throughout my career, nobody seems to care about something like that

@Butterscotch (of Death)
>I inferred this where exactly?
you imply that dress codes are only sexist if there is a big difference between them. Even very simple stuff, its sexism.
> I don’t see how simply having one gender wear dresses and hair ties while the other wears suits is sexist.
…Because one gender is given different rules than another
like i said earlier, why is it bad to give white and black people different dress codes, but ok to give male and females different dress codes?

>Can you show some examples of people being so uncomfortable with dress codes?
Me. I have long hair, some places don't allow males to have have long hair. My hair isn't a fashion statement either, i completely honestly feel uncomfortable with short hair. Its not something i can just change.
There are many women who are uncomfortable having to have skirts, makeup, heels, etc. and many men who feel discriminated against because they can't have long hair, wear makeup or a skirt while their female co-workers can.

> Where I’ve worked throughout my career, nobody seems to care about something like that
well.. duh.. if they are working there, they are obviously ok with the dress code, if they weren't, they would have even gotten the job.

"I’m seeing what people thoughts are on sex specific dress codes, whether it be light or extreme differences between male and female codes, and trying to explain why they are bad and discriminatory."

Good luck with this Lecture Thread then.

edit: ^ oh ffs are you serious.

{ So why is it ok to separate the dress code by sex, but not race? }

Because clothing is separated by sex, not by race.

@poochyena

So what is the anatomical difference for the need to put a different standard on hair length, makeup usage, and pant/skirt attire between the sexes?

@Black Graphic T
It is the serious debate section, right?

@lisalombs
besides underwear, how so?
Sometimes clothing is targeted towards certain genders, but its targeted towards certain genders no more than clothing is targeted towards people of certain ages, races, nationality, etc.

@Farm Zombie
>So what
your right, doesn't affect you, so why should you care?

you imply that dress codes are only sexist if there is a big difference between them. Even very simple stuff, its sexism.

Sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex

A small thing like asking you to cut your hair to look more professional is not the same as discriminating against your sex. It's asking you to respect an image that a business owner wants for his workplace. If you argue with that, you're only telling your employer that you don't respect the image they want for their business and they can hire someone else.

It's no different from asking people to remove their piercings before entering a factory floor. That's why I imply it's only sexist if there are big differences. There would need to be huge differences before it starts becoming unreasonable

ok to give male and females different dress codes?

That might be because men and women have enjoyed having their own unique gender based attires for centuries without fault.

I have long hair, some places don’t allow males to have have long hair. My hair isn’t a fashion statement either, i completely honestly feel uncomfortable with short hair. Its not something i can just change.

What you describe is not you being oppressed by the whims of sexist business owners. It's you facing a standard expectation in a professional workplace. Showing up in casual ripped jeans, visible tattoos and peircings are all banned for the same reason as boys wearing long hair: It doesn't show your professional commitment which reflects badly on business. That's just how the professional world works. Deal with it.

Frankly I'm beginning to think you have a hair insecurity and are unable to let go of your casual appearance. But everyone faces this. It's part of growing up. It's just hair. You can let it go. And it grows back later when you find another job. Protesting against normal business attire by calling it oppressive to your gender will be seen as nothing short of petty.

@Poochyena
I have a sex and am part of society, so yes, it affects me.If barely anyone is complaining, does a problem even exist?

Pshbttt! Screw social norms. xD

But seriously, in school I always saw it as sexist that men were only allowed to wear jeans while girls were allowed to wear jeans, capri pants, leggings, and "finger tip length" skirts. Shorts ere forbidden. Srsly, skirts are k, but screw reasonably length shorts. Lol.

{ Sometimes clothing is targeted towards certain genders, but its targeted towards certain genders no more than clothing is targeted towards people of certain ages, races, nationality, etc. }

I can't tell if you're acting a straight up retard right now or you're just this dedicated to arguing.

@Butterscotch (of Death)
>A small thing like asking you to cut your hair to look more professional is not the same as discriminating against your sex
yes, it is. When you tell someone to cut their hair simply because they are male, then its sexism. Its no different than saying white employs can have long or short hair, but mexican employees must have short hair, regardless of gender.

> It’s asking you to respect an image that a business owner wants for his workplace.
So what about the business that don't like the image of black people or women? That is just a bad argument.

>It’s no different from asking people to remove their piercings before entering a factory floor.
Thats different because that is asking EVERYONE to remove their piercings. That is ok.

>That might be because men and women have enjoyed having their own unique gender based attires for centuries without fault.
No they haven't, if they have, then women would still be wearing nothing but skirts and dresses, never touching pants.
Also, don't forget about transgender people.

>Showing up in casual ripped jeans, visible tattoos and peircings are all banned for the same reason
which, let me first point out, is all gender neutral, so its completely fair.

>for the same reason as boys wearing long hair: It doesn’t show your professional commitment which reflects badly on business.
How, exactly, are boys unprofessional for having long hair, but women are not?

>unable to let go of your casual appearance
I can't even begin to express myself explaining my rage against your statement.

@Farm Zombie
>If barely anyone is complaining, does a problem even exist?
Of course.
There are many problems in the world, not all of them get much attention. less attention doesn't mean its less of a problem.

@lisalombs
well.. its true o.O
They usually aren't as direct as with male/female clothing, but there is definitely "black" clothing, targeted towards black people. Same with age and any group you can target.

Are you seriously sticking to this argument that clothing is targeted to specific races at the same degree that it's targeted to certain genders? So tell me then, what is the "black" version of a skirt, where if someone not in the targeted group wears it around in public they're almost guaranteed to be socially castigated to the extreme in almost all situations.

Maybe men wearing women's clothing is a bit more extreme than white people wearing black clothing, but i'd say its the same as women wearing men's clothings and styles.

regardless, i think just of a social standpoint, that saying men can only wear certain things and women can only wear certain things is sexist.

yes, it is. When you tell someone to cut their hair simply because they are male, then its sexism.

I guess every single military branch giving out crew cuts has been committing sexism to males for generations.

To your credit. Some of the dress code rules you mentioned in your OP are incredibly pretentious

Requiring women to wear makeup? Rubbish. No visiting customers will complain if the bank teller isn't wearing lipstick. That's so unnecessary. Telling men they cant have long as hair as if most people cared is really stuck up and old fashioned as well. So if you want to say these are terribly pretentious rules then I agree. I simply don't see how it's sexist when both sexes are forces to deal with bullshit equally

I'd rather call things sexist only when I see real sexist ideology in effect: when clearly there's a mindset that one sex is inferior and should be trudged through more bullshit than the other

So what about the business that don’t like the image of black people or women? That is just a bad argument.

Constantly bringing up comparisons to black people isn't a decent argument either. Everyone knows that skin color cannot be changed, cannot be worn as a rebellious fashion statement and is nothing more than a mere shade that only retards would look at and think anything about professionalism.

Hair is an option. Long hair on boys also may carry unwanted stigma but the solution is incredibly easy for men. Most employers that ask you to cut it will probably be perplexed as to why you hold it important. Furthermore while race is a single skin color difference and therefore has less reason to be treated differently; Sex carries several differences in body and brain, so it has more reasons to be treated differently. I really don't think the comparison works that well

That's different because that is asking EVERYONE to remove their piercings. That is ok.

You know what else gets asked to be removed on factory floors? Long hair. Although women get to be given hair nets so they don't have to cut everything. Still, long hair is treated as an expendable accessory like everything else here. Again most employers wont understand why you treat it otherwise

No they haven’t, if they have, then women would still be wearing nothing but skirts and dresses, never touching pants.
Also, don’t forget about transgender people.

Missing my point. My point wasn't that people would stick with completely separate attires that never mix. My point was that sex-distinct fashion styles clearly still exist and people in general don't have a problem with them existing. I don't see transgenders waging absolute war on the fact that we have fashions that apply specific sexes either. More often I just see them using both

You ask why its okay to have different dress codes for males and females. I gave you and answer: it's because men and women are different. Not just by one skin tone but by a variety of physical factors. Not that it should matter to the HR department, and as long as it doesn't then it's okay

How, exactly, are boys unprofessional for having long hair, but women are not?

Ask the employers that one.

If I were to run a business, I personally wouldn't care what your hair looks like. I'd care about how well you do your job. My point isn't what I think though. My point is that employers have a right to decide their business uniform

I can’t even begin to express myself explaining my rage against your statement.

I don't try to be hurtful. But I do try to be realistic. What else can I say.

Wow, that is a lot of thread I don't have the time to read atm, so I'll just say this (sorry if it was already brought up)

Other than women not wearing a shirt considered nudity, I don't think there should be any difference in dress code between genders. I have long hair pulled back in a ponytail, but I am probably the least feminine male in appearance you will ever find, I find the idea that men should have short hair and girls must have long hair ridiculous.

Also, I like how people claim that women are held to tighter dress codes then men when women can wear a T-shirt and loose jeans only get a passing look as a tomboy, but a guy wearing a skirt is grounds to ask him to leave the area. People then claim that those clothes are gender neutral but is there anything guys can wear that girls are socially not allowed other than 'not wearing a shirt'? To me it seems like women can get away with wearing anything with only getting labeled a tomboy while men can only wear certain things or else get called a freak.

My views might be are really skewed on this subject being trans and more specifically a closeted trans person but I do think that forcefully gendered things in general is just useless, even bathrooms to a certain extent. From my point of view and experiences especially since I still go to grade school and such I experience first-hand some of the really obnoxious separatist stuff that most people don't look at twice. I don't have much of an argument to add other than what people have already been arguing other than my feelings and that it genuinely is just stupid and useless to have separate most anything whether it be clothing, lines, etc. It genuinely hurts. And I'm not hurt easily but sex separation is one of those things.

As for whether it should be considered legally sexist I'm not so sure of, I just know that most places should have the decency to have an equal dress code regardless.

@Butterscotch (of Death)
>*I guess every single military branch giving out crew cuts has been committing sexism to males for generations.*
lol, the military is definitely sexism, they definitely treat men and women very differently (even if they both perform the same).
Telling men they have to shave their head, but not women is sexism. That is hold men to a different standard than women.

>*I’d rather call things sexist only when I see real sexist ideology in effect: when clearly there’s a mindset that one sex is inferior and should be trudged through more bullshit than the other*
I see what you mean more now.
Sexism isn't just seeing someone as inferior though, its: "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination".
You would say gender roles are sexist, right? Its definitly stereotyping, and its what these dress codes do, tell people how to dress based on stereotypes of their gender/sex.
Sure saying "I would never hire a woman because they are terrible workers" and "women should be feminine and only wear skirts" are different levels of sexism, but its still sexism.

>*it’s because men and women are different.*
But.. the dress codes have literally nothing to do with how they are different. Having long hair or wearing a skirt is literally no different with me being male than if i were female. Where is the line to you? If the men's dress code was "black shirt and pants" and the women's dress code was "clown outfit", would you say that is sexist, or still no?

For a work-based example it's very simply visually unappealing. Men and women's clothing is specifically tailored (pun intended) to compliments and match the physical appearance of the wearer's body. While Women can no doubt pull off men's clothing with little issue they don't add the same "pizazz" as wearing women's clothing, and at the risk of sounding like an asshole having a man dressed in a skirt, blouse and full makeup is going to be a silly sight for most storegoers. It's not that either of these people dressing like this is "wrong", it's more that it'd turn off or make customers uncomfortable, which is a big no no for store owners.

For schools it's most likely because they are a private school which has mandated and strict dress codes for everybody. Back in my highschool a dude straight up came to school in high heel, a short skirt, a daisy duke shirt and full makeup and he didn't get sent home or be harassed by faculty (although I do think he caught shit from other students).

As for whether it's sexist or not, I personally see it as not. It's a social normality which has been embraced by the majority of our country's population. Outside of schools and institutions who utilize them for appeal and/or preventing shitstorms there is no nation-wide enforced dress code and people are free to dress as they please. But I guess what is and isn't sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. is subjective nowadays. You can get triggered and claim video games, movies, food, clothing, books and other such things are offensive and predjudiced and I say go ahead and state your case. I don't share your opinion but different strokes for different blokes.