Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

Thanks for this and your well reasoned replies. I am sorry and apologize to you and others for any outburst on my part. I ask you to consider that I am only human and before I responded in kind I heard a lot of negativity.

As for the discussion of whether or not traps count as transgender that was no my original intention. Frankly I thought that much was obvious.

The derails really happened with the first reply when someone said transgender women are mutilated and mentally defective or some such. As a transwoman myself, something mentioned in my OP that is a pretty harsh thing. However I expected it and so I did not complain.

I mean suppose some RL trap you guys love reads that and is feeling like maybe coming out as trans, forum post can last a long time so that could well happen, think not of me but of one of them.

By the by, the umbrella term "transgender" was and is intended to and defined by every LGBT organization as including "transvestites". That said you are quite right in saying that "transvestites" dont' use that term for themselves. This is a sticky problem.

What makes the parsing this harder is that many people will start out not ID'ing as transgender then latter they do.

Bailey J. Started out not ID'ing as transgender. Now she does and has for a while.

For that matter so did I not always ID as transgender I was just very feminine etc but as I grew to know what it meant that it wasn't some kind of magical thing I did. That is a very common path to follow.

That is what I tried to when I cited the technical definition of those with GID. It is my intention to discuss characters and people in anime who meet that definition As this reference says

"People with gender dysphoria may allow themselves to express their true selves and may openly want to be affirmed in their gender identity. They may use clothes and hairstyles and adopt a new first name of their experienced gender. "

So says not I but the American Psychological Association

Can we at least agree that trap characters and people who call themselves traps have at least that much in common with transgender people?

My only agenda is to try and foster understanding. I did not think anyone would argue what to me seems like a clear and obvious thing. To me I see a "trap" and I see myself. I see the situations they have been in, and I have been in real life analogous situations.

Just today I gave a talk to a sociology class at the college where I teach math and science. From reading faces most of the people in that class felt surprised when I was introduced as being transgender.

If there was a way I could anonymously post the power point here I would. I'm a lot better with power point. So instead maybe hearing from Geena Roceero will get the point across.

We are not just fetish objects.

Want to know something funny. In a way all I did in one of my creations was take this scene someone extracted as a gif ..

*

…and try to explain the intent behind it as I understood it. Click on the gif and compare the image pages. One would think I posted an Auschwitz meme or something vile for saying that maybe we can try as a community to be a bit more to borrow a word

hospitable towards those who IRL live the life of a "trap" and why that's not a great thing to call a person out side a certain context.

*I really am curious to see what will happen if you all take a look at the comments on that page.

Let me make it even easier.

Anyone who wishes to continue the tangential conversation on trying to define "transgender" can message me and discuss it with names and faces and standing by our words. I truly do not mind and in fact such hard conversations are part of my profession. I left an FB comment on one of my creations.

Can we please move onto the issue of "Trap" being a not nice thing to call a person like 98% of the time. Whether or not anime characters like Jun Watarase and Daruku Hoshino … of that type and similar to IRL Bailey J or (depending on who's looking
possibly) myself. Not part time CD's TV's or whatever else. Just FT all the time dressing and ID'ing as girls but being honest about our history characters/people. can we please discuss that?

Appears milder than he made it sound, but it is testing my patience.

I'll wait how the thread goes, but don't pull one like those again.

---

We are not just fetish objects.

One would think I posted an Auschwitz meme or something vile for saying that maybe we can try as a community to be a bit more to borrow a word hospitable towards those who IRL live the life of a “trap” and why that’s not a great thing to call a person out side a certain context.

Those that do it as a fetish and those that don't both fall within the cross-dressing category, which is why the grey area makes these discussions always so difficult. And as we can agree, context is always important.

My only agenda is to try and foster understanding. I did not think anyone would argue what to me seems like a clear and obvious thing. To me I see a “trap” and I see myself. I see the situations they have been in, and I have been in real life analogous situations.

Likewise I think you didn't assume you'd have folks identifying as traps replying to you. We have a pretty diverse community, even Canadians post here.

Your ways might've appeared obvious to you, while our ways might've appeared obvious to us. However these topics are never black and white, which is why discussion is a good thing.

I really am curious to see what will happen if you all take a look at the comments on that page.

We all need to earn our bread – irrelevant. You're a professor, I'm head of lab; it says nothing.

---

Can we please move onto the issue of “Trap” being a not nice thing to call a person like 98% of the time.

A continuation of the previous thread basically?

I already said my part back then, although I could add more, but for now I'll distance myself.

I'll accept the fact that it's not nice to call a living person who isn't into it a trap and i think it's not he nicest thing to do. And you've pointed to explains of persons before using it to refer to real persons who may not actively be into that. I honestly don't care about that, calling someone a simpering jackass is also not nice. vulgarity happens and it really isn't within the realm of anyone here to stop it, and any attempts to do so would be so suffocating it would be worse than being insulted at any give point.
I think anyone would indeed agree it is NOT a word with a singular use.

but given that is the case i do not quite understand what's your point in doing and bringing this up.

I am also having some problem parsing:
[quote] . Whether or not anime characters [/quote]
if that is including what amounts to facsimiles of existing beings being included. I do not agree if that is the case, it would not make sense to group them with human beings in anyway.

canuck here i can confirm canucks post here.
also i might not know to chop this up
i mean is it like [quote] [/quote]

also while i am here tank you for deescalating things

The greater aerie posted:
I’ll accept the fact that it’s not nice to call a living person who isn’t into it a trap and i think it’s not he nicest thing to do. And you’ve pointed to explains of persons before using it to refer to real persons who may not actively be into that. I honestly don’t care about that, calling someone a simpering jackass is also not nice. vulgarity happens and it really isn’t within the realm of anyone here to stop it,

There is that so hard?

LET me give you an example. Just today an FB friend who is in porn and who is trans was recognized by someone when she went to the salon. That person outed her as trans and in porn. She described running out embarassed and ashamed.

I get that you don't care. Fine, think about it this way. If you claim to like "traps" and want to support people you consider so IRL… then IRL you will not ever call them that offline unless at a con or similar event. If you want to star a conversation do so and maybe ask them what they want to be called or how they ID.

That's all folks like me are trying to say. Just treat people like people first any other identity second.

Not sure how to reply to your second post the way it is chopped up. I will say this. If you want to discuss who is and who is not transgender further hit me up on FB. Make your case and stand by it publicly…or even send me a message if you like.

We have established and those who read the authoritative sources I've cited agree the lions share of trap anime characters certainly would be transgender. Further any IRL "trap" you can name who's been around a while is probably transgender. Certain bio chemical realities mean that after a time one must do something to keep that look. Namely testosterone blockers if not estrogen as well.

I do not appreciate your tone.
I never had never expressed this sentiment because it is a vacuous one, it is a given. at no point was not mutually exclusive with my position of disagreement with your definition.anyway there are much better ways to insult someone based on that identity if one was willing. I'm not in fact i am terrible at insulting people.

- your example
that has nothing to do with the term trap. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

- "If you claim to like “traps”"
i have said before in a different post (out of the forums) that I do not like traps. In fact i find it inexcusable that you've ascribed this sexual preference on me at all.
unless by like you mean like persons who may be referred to as traps. I mean i am friendly to friends with persons and i am willing to support my friend.

I also have no interest in supporting traps as a group nor call persons traps or even trans in real life. Because even if it wasn't rude it's strange, it's not something that would come up. OH HELLO THERE MISS TRAP HOW ARE YOU DOING? doesn't make any social sense.

furthermore when ID comes up, the person is often an anomaly (that is to say they often begin it with that). Or it's pretty easy to infer.

"That’s all folks like me are trying to say. Just treat people like people first any other identity second."
I have to pull this out of line for two reasons.
1. i think we've ventured off topic again, not that i really understand what is the topic anymore.
2. I don't believe you on this, your identity became one of the regular insertions into your arguments and was an often repeated subject by you. To date i don't think I've repeated it because i don't care what you do or what you are as long as you do not harm a person. and i really don't know why you bandy it about if you don't want it to be noticed. to date, to you i don't think I've discussed any part of who or what i am (because i really don't see that as important either).
also you would be surprised how many people follow my live and don't give a fuck mentality i'd say the majority of people are like this including your detractors. though some might have not the best ability to determine potential harm. even in /pol/tards.

-Not sure how to reply to your second post the way it is chopped up. I will say this. If you want to discuss who is and who is not transgender further hit me up on FB.
i do not use and do not have a FB
I don't like their invasion of user privacy, i do not like it as a website and i do not like it's affects on the human mind so i have hence forth decided to pick my battles.
also why the hell would i open myself up in such away when you've called me a transphobe in fact an ur transphobe.

-We have established and those who read the authoritative sources I’ve cited agree the lions share of trap anime characters certainly would be transgender.
why are you continuing this
it is off topic?
furthermore i read and cited your sources and i would for the most part not refer to activist sites as authoritative, particularly when you've given lectures on the topic sociology. I would have assumed you could have provided more scholarly work. this being your pet bugaboo.
but again that is off topic.
let us return to topic

-Certain bio chemical realities mean that after a time one must do something to keep that look. Namely testosterone blockers if not estrogen as well.
i think this might be key to our

<blockquote>text </blockquote>

Or start your sentence with bq. followed by a space and breaks before and after the text you wish to quote.

@greaterarie

Not every reply I make here is a direct reply to you. Maybe I should have been clearer, another poster came around to agreeing that it is not generally OK to call someone a "trap". Outside of specific context where everyone knows that word and is cool with it should you use it.

My example of what happened to my porn star friend is exactly what does happen to some of my acquaintances who are big into cosplay and who are trans. Too many folks don't know how to act. They'll never learn unless someone tries to teach it.

If you want to continue to argue with the basic fact that "traps" in anime are trans please feel free to unmask yourself and FB message me about that the thread is trying to be moving on. It is interesting that you choose to go so hard after a self ID'd transwoman in this way… :/ and no one seemed to be so hostile towards the below.

Click for better resolution KYM "Are Traps Gay an in depth guide"

NOW for something special. You don't have to look at any or all of it… but if you really want to know where I'm coming from, here is a presentation I made for a course.

I'll be interested to see if this code works here…

Tried to embed this powerpoint… BUT it starts to autoplay. I HATE WHEN WEBSITES AUTOPLAY!!!! So click it. You may find it fun and intetresting and I think I make my point better with my actual speaking than writing. I do tend to come off harsh in writing.

Or start your sentence with bq. followed by a space and breaks before and after the text you wish to quote.

thanks, man now i'm going to see how this works.

maybe I should have been clearer, another poster came around to agreeing that it is not generally OK to call someone a “trap”.

yes that is the best idea, i'm not generally reading everyone else's posts, mine are a hassle enough though i don't really know who you are responding to given i was one of 2 other people who have posted in the last 24 hours or so.

Outside of specific context where everyone knows that word and is cool with it should you use it.

i mean there is always wriggle room with this because humans are not infallible actors. and you're on the internet, social skills are optional.

Too many folks don’t know how to act. They’ll never learn unless someone tries to teach it.

i would believe that is roughly 0.something% of the pouplation, mostly inline with the rates of ASD (which is magnified on the internet).
the example certainly wasn't of a person that seemed to think that the subject of porn was a light conversation which perhaps the difference between cultures of whatever region you line in and mine (and groups you hang around in) or just simple social issues.
I cannot imagine someone say HEY I SAW YOU IN PORN unless in very certain instances including social ineptitude.

and more pressing and frankly alarming is you don't really outline what you believe teaching them entails or how. furthermore people can simply be bad actors.

I am going to have to break this up to properly unpack my responces
but i would like to remind you this is off topic, i just need to hand my 2 pennies in

If you want to continue to argue with the basic fact that “traps” in anime are trans

1. you already take it as a Forgone conclusion
2. i do not believe it is a basic fact, particularly when discussing what is a mutable product of culture, langauge and memes.
3. i remember random man suggesting this was off topic and i would prefer to remain on topic right now.

please feel free to unmask yourself and FB message me about that the thread is trying to be moving on.

1. i have already explained i do not like face book, and i do not have one.
2. we have pms but i'm not intrested in that either
3. why would i do anything on Facebook, i mean i'm not born yesterday i'm not about to walk into an argument when you've already called me the prime example of transphobia of innocuous subjects so why would i reasonably open myself to scrutiny when there are people react like antibodies when they hear a certain trigger phrase.
4. i do not need to tie my arguments into my personae because my arguments should be able to exist or fail on their own removed from the person who had produced them. to expand on a previous statement i made about identity, who i am is not important what matters is my argument.

It is interesting that you choose to go so hard after a self ID’d transwoman in this way… :/

It's interesting that you once again brought up your identity when you had before said you want it not to matter. i will again level with you. I don't care what or who you are. Being trans does not give you a priori excellence in the field for argument on this subject. they happen to coincide because that is like i said your personal bugaboo.

i also find i rather telling that you say "go so hard" I've been polite or at least civil, and in truth as far as i can see more than you've been (random man could always slap me). at least for the environments i've argued on this is the lightest punch I've seen and trust me this is by no stretch of the imagination going hard. I honestly do not see whats wrong with scrutinizing your positions, if anything i didn't pull my punches because you where trans which you will have a VERY hard time explaining to me why i should.

and no one seemed to be so hostile towards the below.

do you mean that picture you posted below, i would have assumed it appeared someone else because i didn't read it.
I've only responded to the posts I've read from you in our conversation thread generally and the mod. as per the image i've not made my notions on the sexual topics really all that clear except that i sympathize with a fellow who might find that the parts don't mesh for there tastes. i'm not going to expect them to go outside of where they might be comfortable going.

but as a general rule, i don't really care if traps are gay or not. that is something for actual fans to determine but i did cite an argument by zarathuras's serpent which i had posted where he said, traps are gay but "who gives a fuck". (post sexuality enviroment)

though i will meantion it's is to argue that the same sexual components slapping around in coitus is not homosexual is difficult. especially given that people don't often conflate gender and sex when it comes to matters of sex but it's a non issue.

regarding the link you posted, i've made it a habit not to click links that i do not know where the url goes to.
and i make it a habit not to touch hypertext at all.
not indicating you are malicious, i just don't do it. It's likely an irrational fear but i've been burned too many times

I'm seriously impressed by the amount of views this has gotten.

I didn't read every response here but I did read your original post and every highly up-voted one, and I have this to say.

In regards to your claim, I'll bite. "Traps" is 100% transphobic. The arguments and dictionary definitions you provided proved it and every counter argument regardless of what is says is negated.

Every single Joke, meme, comedic slang, or fad that at least one person finds funny is always going to piss someone off at it's expense.

Oh look, Mario just knocked down the world trade center instead of Bower's castle. Hahahah!
2,000+ people died that day.

Oh look, an under-aged anime girl is tied up with tape over her mouth with a thought bubble saying, "At that point I realized there was no candy." Hahaha!
Kidnappings happen in real life.

Oh look, "Hitler did nothing wrong" is the name of that soda. Hahaha!
Hitler did do something wrong.

Oh look, someone's waifu in behind the noose. Hahaha!
Real people commit suicide.

Oh look, there's a school shooter starter pack" Hahaha!
Mass school shootings happen in real life.

Oh look, there's a pic of a really hot anime girl in a bunny suit. Oh, wait it's actually a guy, therefore it's a "trap". Hahaha!
Real people are transgender and they often get treated badly for being so.

Oh look, those black kids are going on a field trip to a cotton field, the prophet Mohammed is getting beheaded by Isis, jews in the oven, gays on roller skates are rolaids, Asians can't drive, women in the kitchen, Catholic priest and a small boy, Native Americans have a reservation at a restaurant, nukes in Japan, hardest part about eating a vegetable is the wheelchair…

I could go on for a long time.

I'm actually being serious when I say I believe the term "traps" is transphobic, and using it is going to upset a lot of people the same way every joke I mentioned is going to upset a lot of people. I also believe if we censored every joke, meme, fad and slang that upsets someone and just politically correct everything we wouldn't be able to joke about anything whatsoever. Someone joking about one specific group or using a slang to describe them like "traps" shouldn't be considered promoting hatred, being a hateful person, going way too far, or be censored because it offends that one specific group. No one group deserves any special treatment.

So yeah, "traps" is transphobic but I'm using it anyway.

Red 9 YES You get an A+ For keeping it meme and not trying to argue that somehow…. citing a dictionary or freaking psychological diagnostic manual etc is worth a public flogging.

Extra points for being funny.

So yeah, “traps” is transphobic but I’m using it anyway.

Context is key. All I'm saying all any transwoman into anime is saying.

*If you saw me in costume as Daruku Hoshino at a con go ahead and call me a trap I won't mind… it would be sort of the point.

*If you saw me down the street from the same con, even if in costume, don't. You never know what kind of people might hear it and how they might react.

I don't blame you guys for your reactions SJW's want to ruin everyone contextually correct fun. Odds are many assumed that was my goal and 1/2 to 2/3 of my down votes were just a knee jerk reaction.

I don’t blame you guys for your reactions SJW’s want to ruin everyone contextually correct fun.Odds are many assumed that was my goal and 1/2 to 2/3 of my down votes were just a knee jerk reaction.

no i think it's the way you come off and the fact that you appear blind to it.
flies and honey and what not.
So you both came off as a abrasive and condensing while also having no real knowledge of the community
doesn't help that you ought imperative (contextual uses) was one that everyone really accepts without really much fanfare bar the autistic and most socially underdeveloped.
but that's my damage report

iting a dictionary or freaking psychological diagnostic manual etc is worth a public flogging.

Anything is worth a public flogging.
this is the internet for heaven's sake. The flesh is soft the teeth are wet, this place is hell in it's perfection.

@the greater series

I'm not blind to the fact that I come across really harsh in writing that's why I came up with that PowerPoint. Though I think I speak the way I write, same facts and opinions sound better coming out of my mouth.

Anything is worth a public flogging.
this is the internet for heaven’s sake. The flesh is soft the teeth are wet, this place is hell in it’s perfection.

Lol. True.

My challenge stands. For anyone who feels strongly differently about the word trap to go to a transgender day of remembrance event and not be affected by it.

How will going to a Transgender Day of Remembrance and being affected prove anything other than that humans are affected by the loss of life?

It will show you why you need to be careful with words like "trap". That very word has been used IRL 99% of the time to defend someone who just did violence to someone transgender (in the broad umbrella sense of the word as it really means.)

On the subject of that word I found an article ya'll get a kick out of. It is by a female to male transman (a "reverse trap" as you'd call him.)

I Was Recently Informed I'm Not a Transsexual BY RIKI WILCHINS
JUNE 07 2017 in the advocate. Riki is a female to male transsexual

It dawned on me that these three individuals probably read me as another privileged straight white cisgender male who was offensively referring to someone’s genital status. My co-facilitator took me aside and told me that our training was toast. There was enough bad blood and moral indignation hovering over the meeting to make it impossible for us to continue. But I wasn’t so sure. I always assume my transgenderness is apparent, though in this room I was obviously wrong. I needed to come out. So I explained that -- ahem -- I started my own transition in 1976 and that “transsexual” was indeed the term of art. We used it. Those around us used it. The book many of us read was titled The Transsexual Phenomenon. I cofounded a nationwide protest group called Transexual Menace. (No mistake, one s by intention.) And oh, yes, I had my own surgery before any of you were born. The atmosphere in the room became instantly warmer. The straight white oppressive male had morphed into … an oppressed marginalized transgender person. So who is politically incorrect now? The sex change was on the other foot.

Sounds like about 75% of this conversation. Which makes me realize many of you disputing what I cited as official definitions of the word transgender were probably telling me what you all had learned as the new PC language for it. Where some people now use transgender for just transsexual because transsexual has ssexual.

He he, LMBO. In a way some of you may have been trying to be more PC.

I don't think traps are transsexuals by default. Why? a "trap" is a guy that dresses as a woman in order to trick men into thinking that he's a female when he's actually a male. A transsexual on the other hand is a person who believes that they belong to the opposite sex as opposed to what the currently are.

Cross dressing is not exclusively a transsexual act.

I don't think you are right on this

on a whole i could arm wave away the suggestion that a day of remembrance is effective (now you could claim that being surrounded by people might trigger mob mentality shit but who the hell knows how that will work out). more to the point there is no time off, people have to work Monday. the last thing i want to do just go out and runaround the city after work on a monday and i think a fair amount of people would agree on this.

It will show you why you need to be careful with words like “trap”.

I think people more or less already understand that but that was another converastion

That very word has been used IRL 99% of the time to defend someone who just did violence to someone transgender (in the broad umbrella sense of the word as it really means.)

you talked about that before but i didn't remember you providing actual solid proof to a claim of that magnitude. You did send out the gay panic defense but like i had said before, it doesn't really talk about it, it's more about open homophobia and not really a response to somebody getting blue ball rage. Most importantly you're putting the cart before the horse, removing the word from the accepted lexicon of the population will only lead to a new world popping up, it doesn't directly deal with the sentiment you seem to have a problem with.

I will go further regarding "trap" again, this is a sexual issue not a gender one, requiring one party to scrutinize the sexual organs of another. While i am not justifying any reactions what so ever it would appear to me that the actual number of these incidents would be very low, because someone who has that capacity for reaction also has to be interacting with someone who is a major minority in the human population and to be unaware that the person lacks the organs they like and be in a sexual to semi sexual situation. that should be a very rare occurrence if any, even then I'd wonder what would drive a person to attempt to engage in sexual activities with a person who does like the sexual organs present? that's a very scummy thing to do (again not justifying any adverse reaction from either party).

read me as another privileged straight white cisgender male

eeeeh i think I'll pass this thing reads like mixing cement in in a wheelbarrow, also it hit my thought terminating cliche so i think i'll just take your analyses and call myself a couple moments luckier

many of you disputing what I cited as official definitions of the word transgender were probably telling me what you all had learned as the new PC language for it.

maybe but also the terminology is anti-intuitive.
Trans- anything is (or is assumed to be derived from) transitional/transitionary/transitory which suggests a impermanent state of affairs thus (the intuitive inference suggest) one must transition over at some point or be intending to. likewise gender has often been used as a shorthand (as you meantioned) for sex likely from the erotic connotations of sex. reading transgender as the same thing as transexual is likely very much the result of that above indication and our refusal to accept your terminology likely comes from the intuitive problem of having a semi permanent state of affairs in that grouping. Or at least as you've described it.
I don't think it's a matter necessarily of "PC" though there might be more to it that i will cover later but i do think it's a matter of the common lexicon shifting while in this instance you are not with the common as you are far more interested in this than the common person.
Now regarding a PC explanation it could also be points 2 (sex being phased out for gender) and people finding transsexual to be outdated, there's a lot feeding into it.
not the biggest thing in the world however

@CrashGordon94
Clearly it is not innocuous to a lot of people.

You see that's the thing, just because someone gets offended by something doesn't mean it's not ultimately innocuous because there's always someone who's gonna be offended by any given thing. If you used that logic, everything on Earth is offensive.

As a reminder to everyone, if you're wanting the discussion to stop, you can always stop responding.
 
 
But since it continues:

You see that’s the thing, just because someone gets offended by something doesn’t mean it’s not ultimately innocuous because there’s always someone who’s gonna be offended by any given thing. If you used that logic, everything on Earth is offensive.

I loathe this argument anywhere I see it. I don't know if there's a fallacy in it, and I can't be bothered to remember terminology of fallacies.

But I do know that one shouldn't immediately dismiss a point due to one exception.

Yes, everything is offensive to someone, but that doesn't not make it generally offensive nor does it make everything as offensive as something else. There are plenty of names someone could call someone else that are subjectively more offensive than other names, but it doesn't mean that name is not offensive.
 
My approach is to see how I feel about some term.

But when it comes to someone else, I have enough vocabulary to not feel hamstrung if someone decides what I think isn't offensive is offensive. Certainly when I have little stake in the matter. So if a lot of people in trans communities feel that a term is offensive, then I'm not going to come in with my "logic" and say they shouldn't find it offensive or say that it's OK to be offensive, because everything is offensive.
 
"It's 5 o'clock somewhere, amirite?"

Yeah, but it's legitimately 10 o'clock here.
 
Even still, I don't think that was OP's argument.
 
The argument should be along the lines of what I saw someone else post. I didn't necessarily agree with it, but it is logically consistent:

I’m actually being serious when I say I believe the term “traps” is transphobic, and using it is going to upset a lot of people the same way every joke I mentioned is going to upset a lot of people. I also believe if we censored every joke, meme, fad and slang that upsets someone and just politically correct everything we wouldn’t be able to joke about anything whatsoever. Someone joking about one specific group or using a slang to describe them like “traps” shouldn’t be considered promoting hatred, being a hateful person, going way too far, or be censored because it offends that one specific group. No one group deserves any special treatment.

So yeah, “traps” is transphobic but I’m using it anyway.

They recognized it is offensive. They simply choose not to care.
 
I would say to go with that.

---

I'm no white knight. I have no real interest in the topic, because I think OP made her point better than everyone else's. I don't think anyone is going to beat it, because I don't think anyone is knowledgeable enough to find enough cited information to trump it.

I think her choice to come here (and continue to argue after saying she was going to stop) makes me question her motives. I don't really care about those. It seems pretty obvious that she doesn't know how this community tends to think and argue (or she ignores it, which is terribly ineffective if you're seeking to change minds. You need to get on your audience's level and know how they think.)

I just don't see how you take cited sources and throw them out, because you don't like them or because a lot of people outside of the research community don't like them. If you can't appeal to expertise and people who study and document it more than you, then you're simply not going to be swayed.

And that's fine. Just say you don't agree, because you don't want to; say you're going to continue to feel like "trap" isn't offensive, because you don't agree with people who know the topic better than you;

or say you acknowledge it's offensive and you don't feel like changing up your vocabulary. This is the Internet. You can totally do that.
 
If you feel ok with that, then great.

If you don't feel ok with that, then you'll need to reassess your perspective one way or another.

No dice Verbose.
Let's take another look at the point I actually responded to:

Clearly it is not innocuous to a lot of people.

They are literally claiming it's not innocuous simply because others are offended by it, it's not invalid or a fallacy in any way to point out that you can't use that as the barometer for something being offensive or not. Whatever you might say to OP's other arguments, that's a perfectly valid response to the specific one that was pushed at me, even if it WAS genuinely offensive that would still be a bad argument to back that up with and you can't let a bad argument go just because it's made for he right "cause".

But when it comes to someone else, I have enough vocabulary to not feel hamstrung if someone decides what I think isn’t offensive is offensive. Certainly when I have little stake in the matter. So if a lot of people in trans communities feel that a term is offensive, then I’m not going to come in with my “logic” and say they shouldn’t find it offensive

That's the thing, that's EXACTLY what you should be doing. Outrage doesn't make someone right and giving in to them getting butthurt over something innocuous isn't being kind, it's being a doormat. All it ever does is make something a taboo that has no reason to be, encourage brainless offense-mongering and give the "other side" ammo to make even the legitimate arguments look worse.

Meanwhile, if something's actually bad then they can back it up and you don't need to shy away from questioning it if you don't already follow.

They recognized it is offensive. They simply choose not to care.

I would say to go with that.

I would not, because there's ultimately nothing offensive about it at all. It's like when people call dark humor "racist" or "sexist" or whatever, those are terms better reserved for the actual things that cause actual harm. Doing otherwise causes the double-shit effect of labelling things that aren't harmful as harmful and also excusing the genuinely bad stuff by conflating it with something that's ultimately fine.

I’m no white knight. I have no real interest in the topic, because I think OP made her point better than everyone else’s. I don’t think anyone is going to beat it, because I don’t think anyone is knowledgeable enough to find enough cited information to trump it.

They already have, over and over again, that you actually seem to buy into OP's BS rather worries me.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

A trap is someone who dresses like a girl but does not believe he is a woman. Be it a disguise (Link from Zelda: Breath of the Wild), a weird upbringing (Gwyndolin from Dark Souls), or just for shits and giggles (pretty much at least 50% of all trap doujins) if the character is for all intents and purposes a guy, then they are not trans.

People crossdress for various reasons, but being a crossdresser does not make you trans.

It is only a trap because the person looks like a cute/sexy girl, but actually isn't. We can argue all day about traps being gay or not, but a trap for all intents and purposes is not trans.

I've said it before in a previous thread, but doesn't the term "trap" have more to do with transvestism than transsexualism and/or transgenderism?

and related to that, a usage note for the word transvestite from Wiktionary.com:

"Transvestite should not be confused with transgender or transsexual (see those terms for more); transvestites are often happy with their gender and have no desire to change their sex, but simply enjoy being able to cross-dress from time to time. When speaking of to or about an individual who identifies as transgender, the term transvestite is typically seen as derogatory."

I think traps are basically a specific subset of transvestism. No more, no less, unless specifically stated otherwise for an individual example.

tl;dr: Ask RuPaul if it's offensive, not Caitlyn Jenner.

Lots to respond to here.

@Verbose
just don’t see how you take cited sources and throw them out, because you don’t like them or because a lot of people outside of the research community don’t like them. If you can’t appeal to expertise and people who study and document it more than you, then you’re simply not going to be swayed.
And that’s fine. Just say you don’t agree, because you don’t want to; say you’re going to continue to feel like “trap” isn’t offensive, because you don’t agree with people who know the topic better than you;
or say you acknowledge it’s offensive and you don’t feel like changing up your vocabulary. This is the Internet. You can totally do that.

If you feel ok with that, then great.
If you don’t feel ok with that, then you’ll need to reassess your perspective one way or another.

Any of the above would be a logical and reasonable response. Trying to argue with a transgender person, and cited sources about who is transgender as if you know better than me is kind of odd.

@Yummies and @lesserangel

Trust me there are plenty of people like these "traps" in the transgender community. The only way someone is going to look 100% convincing for a long time is if they transition. Eventually puberty will kick in and a choice will have to be made. Everyone I know who once thought "I am a boy but I just love everything girly and act feminine" at 12 -15 was full time by 14-25.

BEST EXAMPLE, Line trap

Bailey J talking about stereotypes

Don't want to believe someone …like her… myself…* who took a different road and got academic credentials… believe HER

*I am told there are places on the net where my photos can still be found IF you knew my stage name. Good luck. LOLs

I leave you with this gentlemen.

@Uttamattamakin

Don’t want to believe someone …like her… myself…* who took a different road and got academic credentials… believe HER

What i don't understand is why don't you at least suggest some academic sources on this subject (unless the queer porn IS somehow one along with the lot of interviews perhaps things are different within your field but most of my primary sources are dead AND unreliable so i don't place a lot of stock in them).
you've got the background and the singular interest on the subject to transmit the subject.

@verbose

As a reminder to everyone, if you’re wanting the discussion to stop, you can always stop responding.

It's an interesting monster

I just don’t see how you take cited sources and throw them out, because you don’t like them or because a lot of people outside of the research community don’t like them. If you can’t appeal to expertise and people who study and document it more than you, then you’re simply not going to be swayed.

if you were referring to me, I mean i had one regarding the seat of the English language and i really didn't find a good enough reason in the citations provided to through out that both common use and accepted meaning. It doens't quite seem to fit in my world view and manage to develop a solid reason. It seems like a slight of definition. to me more or less. while some fields will have technical phrasings and meanings added towards the general use may be completely un-intuitive and that's why i'm still trying to dig down into it.

It boggles me really when i think about it.
>we have this group of persons who are "non-conforming" and fit these categories. the categories INCLUDE non-conforming and the supergroup is named TRANS even though there are things not related to any form of transition what so ever. (the rest happened to include a myriad of the regular tumblr suspects that are rather arcane to folks like me).
as a whole it doesn't appeal to my bullish brain.
It seems either a political movement or one from sheer lazy incompetence neither of those prospects are generous so i would rather a direct rationale for this or more importantly the academic building blocks that explain this rather strange development.

not every transgender person who try there hardest can look great some try there hardest but it just doesn't work out sadly. what you said feel a bit insulting. not trying to be rude here by the way

EXACTLY and very important. Transgender people, otoko no ko don't all look one particular way. As another person who is into the scene and OK with, in context of anime cons being called a trap said this :

"No one identifies as a trap. When people call someone a trap it is because you looked so convincing."

That is also part of why the word is so transphobic. It supposes that those who don't look good convincing, young, and attractive might as well not exist.

A very good story on Rocketnews makes the point very well. It is all about a book of pictures of "otoko no ko" in which the author of that book says.

“I’m a woman, but I love people who crossdress. Although I’m often asked why, to me it’s clear that if they’re cute or beautiful it doesn’t matter what gender they are. The world has decided that “men should be this way” which is just disrespectful and off-base. You should be able to do by whatever you personally like. Having realized that, I love and cherish those who pursue such a life. Don’t judge these otoko no ko from the viewpoint a woman or a man is expected to have, but by what naturally moves your heart. Then you’ll see it a different way. There’s a lot more going on; facial expressions, gestures, fashion, and contexts to name a few. Keep these ideas in mind when you pick up this book and you may feel like a freer person when you’re done.”