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No, it's not. For one "trap" is a term that was born from, and 9/10 refers to anime, and in said anime the males don't want to be female, just to dress like one, which is crossdressing, not transgenderism…

Are more threads like this gonna be the result of that whole "lets welcome neogaf users" crap?

W E A K

YourHigherBrainFunctions & Fischell wrote:

You’re making us transgender look like assholes right now.

Are more threads like this gonna be the result of that whole “lets welcome neogaf users” crap?

Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times and we'll start talking. This is literally the first time I've seen a thread like this happen, so I'm not gonna point or worry yet.

Normally, trans on KYM is literally a dick-measuring contest.

I'm not sure,ask the guys who make traps in their media and what they think about the characters they made.

welp. I can't top that. I'm jelly.

My understanding: He does not have gender dysphoria. He does not feel uncomfortable with his sex. He is interested only in crossdressing, which is an outward appearance change and has absolutely nothing to do with actual gender. How exactly are you figuring he's transgender when he himself knows he isn't?

Here's the thing though. Your understanding of being transgender as being just one thing, a transsexual and wanting surgery, is not right. There is more than one way to be transgender.

Go to a transgender social event and you will see Crossdressers who only do it for kicks but live as men all the rest of the time, Drag queens, two spirits, and all different types and degrees of transsexual there.

I have given both the dictionary definition of transgender, and the psychological diagnostic criteria. Let me try one more thing. How GLADD defines it. Maybe that one will get through what we who are transgender are talking about.

Transgender (adj.)
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms – including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures.

Tokyo school teaches cross-dressing men, transgender individuals to move and speak femininely – Rocket News A school founded by Satsuki Nakahara a post operative transsexual for all kinds of trans MTF's.

Let me put this in meme terms for you.

The key term there is "DIFFERS from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned". If someone does not differ from their assigned gender/sex, at all, despite crossdressing or some other action, they are not transgender.

To be transgender, the only criteria you must meet is that you do NOT identify with your assigned gender. Perhaps in the past, transsexual and transgender were different terms, but now transgender encompasses both. Yes, there are transgenders that do not wish to receive sexual reassignment surgery, this doesn't mean they're not transgender, or that they are transsexual. If you do not identify with your assigned gender, you are transgender.

I identify with my assigned gender, therefore I am not transgender. This is so easy to understand…

EDIT: Also stop fucking using anime and fictional characters as arguments, jesus christ, dude.

They aren't the same thing. We now know how someone can be a full-blown transsexual and to be completely into women.

You could have the crossdresser drag queen or transsexual who's totally straight into women but identify strongly as a woman.

That's my point and it's part of the reason why the question are traps gay is so misguided.

I'm working on creating an original meme based on a Canon statement in an anime that pretty much says what I've been trying to tell y'all. I'll give you a hint which anime It Is by showing you a picture of me…. I could probably cosplay as this character and not look at a total fool.

Transgender does not also in compas transsexual not all transgender people are transsexual.

This is all about fictional characters as you claim the word comes from anime not the real world and then it's been applied in the real world the actual real life people.

Okay listen either you have poor reading comprehension or you are misrepresenting opposing arguments on purpose.

Let me explain what he said step by step:

"Transgender encompasses transexual"

Meaning all transexuals are transgender. This is true. They are transgender people that DID go through with the surgery.

At no point in that statement it is implied that the opposite holds true. Nobody but you said anything about "all transgender people are transexual". And yet this is what you chose to interpret. Which leads me to believe you either have reading comprehension so poor you can't reliably debate anything, or you are straight up misinterpreting with malicious intent to strengthen your points, since you've already done this several times over the course of this thread. Neither helps your credibility.

Oh OK maybe you personally haven't got the idea that all transgender women are wanting the surgery but look above you. There are plenty of people who think claiming that "traps" are by nature part of the much larger family of transgender people means that they want surgery and such.

I apologize, I had a whole page up there of people stating that "trap" can't be transphobic because "traps are not transgender" when by any reasonable rational definition they are.

I am working on a meme, based on the words of a character from a recent anime in which, right from the lions mouth, they put that idea to rest.

I've been debating how to reply to you. You're trying to say look at me I am a trap and I am not trans.

Honey, if you aren't full time you would not be a real life analog of a trap. All these characters these otokonoko are out there in the world living 24×7 not just putting on a couple articles of female clothes and masturbating.

This is me.

Bow to your sensei

I found an anime that makes my point really well and the character in that one is one I could cosplay and well… not be trapping or fooling anyone. I'd just be a trans woman dressed as a trans woman. Try to guess which one based on my skin color.

Uttamattamakin wrote:

Transgender (adj.)
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms – including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures.

I debunked that the dictionary is a limited source in my previous post (which you ignored), but for the sake of discussion I'll let this one be. That transgender is an umbrella term, we'll for now assume that it is if this definition says so. This one is gonna remain relevant for the rest of the post. Not gonna say I fully agree, I just want to get out of the dictionary loop.

But if it's an umbrella term, that means more specific definitions can fall under it. Like you mentioned yourself with transsexual for folks who have the hormones and surgery.

So in that regard, we'll say that, from your point of view with the definitions, trap is also a form that falls under the umbrella term. Even your original dictionary post claims that in its second point ("noting or relating to a person who does not conform to societal gender norms or roles"). Where transsexual is hormones+surgery, trap is merely looking the part naturally but still identifying as your original gender (to simplify things).

Which then clashes with this other thing you said, the topic of the thread itself: ""Traps" are Trans and calling them that is transphobic."

Then how is calling a trap, a trap, transphobic? They fall under the umbrella term, and instead of grouping them together with the entire trans scale, you refer to them as their specific, much more detailed, term. Sure, under your definitions, referring to them as trans is in its own way correct, but it's still lumping them together with all other types of trans they don't identify with. Like calling any Asian an Asian, instead of their specific country (Chinese, Japanese, etc.).

Personally, I think you're selectively reading these definitions to the point that they abide to your arbitrary views. In their purest definition they might be right, but by sticking to them you're intentionally lumping everyone together even if they clearly don't like it.

---

I thought progressiveness was also about tearing down gender norms: The boys shouldn't play with dolls and girls shouldn't like sports stuff. Yet here is a claim that folks who ignore gender norms by wearing comfy socks are fall under the transgender umbrella term. Isn't that building gender norms, instead of tearing them down?

---

That’s my point and it’s part of the reason why the question are traps gay is so misguided.

The entire idea of "Are traps gay?" is based on this:

Characters suddenly become popular when they add the most male type of gear there is: A dick. It's the dick that attracts the fans to it, otherwise they would be satisfied with a standard female character.

In the grand transgender terminology, sure, I guess I can see where you're coming from, but this is just to rustle some jimmies. Like posting FBI Gifs each time someone posts a loli. It triggers replies, as the fans see you judging their fetish and them alongside.

---

Honey, if you aren’t full time you would not be a real life analog of a trap. All these characters these otokonoko are out there in the world living 24×7 not just putting on a couple articles of female clothes and masturbating.

Next time type these things in your OP post, makes your point of view much clearer.

[picture]

You identify as trans, they as trap, "sensei"; different stuff. The extend to which they wear their female articles of clothing is gonna become important here.

Random Man. Yes I agree my original post could've been better. I did read your post but I wanted to think about it and formulate what I think is a good response. It also encompases what you just wrote.

"How is calling a trap transphobic if the identiy of a trap is part of the family of being transgender".

Here is how… you see in Japanese they don't call them traps they use their term "otoko no ko" which is used by both post op transsexuals and even some part timers who go out in public and convince in Japan.

I'll just let the source material speak.

Thanks to all the moderators for their vigilance and patience as I have tried to find a way to talk to this community.

I usually avoid anime communities because of how some folks act. I watch an anime like the one Daruku is in and see her wearing a sailor uniform to school to me… that means she had cool parents who bought it, and fought for her right to wear it. When I went to private school I asked for a girls uniform at age 7 and my mother said "next year". Then next year I was put in to public school. To me reducing a character to a fetish is so wrong… I've been them. I am them.

Here is how… you see in Japanese they don’t call them traps they use their term “otoko no ko” which is used by both post op transsexuals and even some part timers who go out in public and convince in Japan.

Different languages, different terminology, different trans cultures. Just because the Japanese don't have a specific term under the trans umbrella, doesn't mean the Americans can't have one.

Americans don't have a term for joy gained from others' pain, so they use the German-borrowed schadenfreude (which isn't the only language that has a term for it).

Different languages evolve differently.

What the Japanese use is pretty much a non-argument.

Thanks to all the moderators for their vigilance and patience as I have tried to find a way to talk to this community.

As long as the thread is civil, there's no need for us to pull mod cards.

Great. So do we all agree (or at least you and I agree) traps are a variety of transgender person? If so the reason why the word "trap" is tranphobic is an easy one to answer.

In real life transgender women all around the world (CD, TV, DQ, and full time Pre/post/non op transsexuals) are subject to being victimized, and killed because the men who find them attractive feel "trapped" or "tricked" into making them aroused or having sex with them.

November 20th is the "Transgender day of remembrance" where we gather to remember our dead and celebrate being us.

Don't just take my word for it. These ladies will describe for you, quite nicely, how

I'd encourage anyone who claims to love "traps" and wants to know why so many of us who IRL could be called traps or could be or have been accused of "tricking" or "trapping" people at some point …just by being us… feel that word should , at least, not be used carelessly.

"Traps" don't just represent an ideal image that gets fapped to but a large number of real actual people who it is at least rude to call that. We don't exist to trick you. Representations matter.

non trans examples
I'm not sure if this has been covered before but here
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bridget
this is like the primordial trap, who to my knowledge is not a trans person in any capacity.
not even to step out of the gender dynamic just simply the character is physically more feminine.
I have had friends who remained neotonus long into highschool and thus appeared excessively female without stepping out of the gender roles and if they were indeed homosexual a man might see them as a tomboyish female.
thus instances of trap are found outside of your defined groups and rendered it moot.

i do not agree with your definition of trans
I disagree with both your use of dictionaries and choice. I prefer the oxford dictionary but that's because i'm a loyalist. and their opinion reads as "Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex." (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/transgender)
and if i reject your dictionary definition (that is to say the definition closes to only encompass a person with gender dysphoria than your argument falls apart.
Now on it's side i find the extension of transgender (with the root being transitional) strange as an effective group to include people who have no interest in transitioning and aside from certain behaviors still identify with their sex..In fact i believe those definitions cast the net too far. If just stepping out of gender norms was enough to get a person placed into the supergroup of trans then everyone would more or less effectively enter that category bar from some UR examples of femininity or masculinity. for example tomboys are also trans, so are effeminate men,men and women who don't want families, hell I ain't crushing in it and working myself to death like the masculine examples of my forbears to feed my family so i am also trans by that metric. I'd move for transgendered to be focused done to those who have something akin to gender dysphoria entirely because it would at that time be so useless (as defined by the dsm 5). In fact I believe it's wrongfully inflates the numbers of persons who are or appear to be trans.

negative trap
for all intents and purposes if i am a straight man and i want to follow the societal expectations of me (and biological pressures to reproduce) a trap of any kind (as all but the reverse cannot reproduce naturally) then yeah it would be a trap. It is indeed confining me, trapping or disabling me from acting in accordance to my whims and nature in a way i do not like.
I would consider it an adequate term. mind you i come from a group of cultures where the man is supposed to be atlas holding up the family without complaint. I do not understand why there needs to be such a delineation when referring to a person in this case, a person who has not disclosed this straight away has effectively lied. it seems fine to categorize a person who has not been upfront with their history as a trap.

closing statements
it has been enlightening in a worrisome sense
I find this all very strange and your argument comes from minimizing and marginalizing people may or may not idenity with the label you've provided.

So, one by one:

- Your first paragraph has absolutely no correlation to anything I said, and once again is worded poorly, further leading to the idea that you are trying to have a serious debate without even having a decent grasp of the language first. Or once again you misinterpreted what I said on purpose with full malicious intent of derailing. Neither paints you or your argument in a good light.

- Trap can't be transphobic because there is no correlation. There can possibly be a case in which a character can be both, but most often this is not the case. The most common usage of "trap" is referring to a male that physically appears to be female, whether intentionally or not. But there is almost never any indication that the character WANTS to be female or sees themselves as such, therefore transgender does not apply.

- I will tell you right from the get-go that this "meme" (most likely you mean a captioned image/image set, not actually a meme because it cannot possibly be a meme before it is even made) will not help you in any way. Using the words of an anime character to try to strengthen your position about an entire definition when you have nothing else to back it up will likely just end up backfiring on you. And a single anime does not in any way speak for the millions of others.

@ The greatier Aierie and @

Let you disagree with "my definition of transgender" That's not my defintion. It is the definition of both the world health organization and the American Psychological Association, and the GLADD and HRC and every other organization that represents or works with real actual transgender people even in Japan where Anime comes from.

I have cited the sources for you. Respond with cited sources instead of invective or maybe you aren't about serious discussion. The definition of transgender clearly encompasses the characters we are discussing. To continue to argue that in the face of evidence is not serious discussion.

Quote
All of these come word for word from the GLADD media guide

Transgender (adj.)
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms – including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures.
Transsexual (adj.)

An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. Still preferred by some people who have permanently changed – or seek to change – their bodies through medical interventions, including but not limited to hormones and/or surgeries. Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term. Many transgender people do not identify as transsexual and prefer the word transgender. It is best to ask which term a person prefers. If preferred, use as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man.

Trans
Used as shorthand to mean transgender or transsexual – or sometimes to be inclusive of a wide variety of identities under the transgender umbrella. Because its meaning is not precise or widely understood, be careful when using it with audiences who may not understand what it means. Avoid unless used in a direct quote or in cases where you can clearly explain the term's meaning in the context of your story.

As to arguing that somehow use of the word trap could predate either victimization of transwomen or the existence of transwomen….

The primordial trap being Bridget as if a game from 1998 predates actual transgender people…

Tyra Hunter (wikipedia)
Tyra Hunter (1970 – August 7, 1995) was an African-American transgender woman who died after being injured as a passenger in a car accident and being refused emergency medical care.Emergency medical technicians at the scene of the accident uttered derogatory epithets and withdrew medical care after cutting open Tyra's pants and discovering that she had a penis, Quoted.

I can go further back than that if you need. In the book Sunan Abu Dawud book 41 number 4910 there is an interaction between the Prophet Muhammad and a "mukhannathun" who was threatned by a mob for dressing like a woman.

Bridget …smh. People like me are a part of the human condition. They've even found a quite possibly transgender or gay "cave (wo)man"/shaman's burrial "In all likelihood, this individual was either a shaman or more akin to someone transgender, like the Native American “berdache” (“third sex”)."

Suffice it to say trying to argue that the use of the word trap in anime somehow pre-dates the existence of transgender human beings is not the way for you to go.

I reserve the right to not reply at any length to anyone who chooses to ignore the way Tyran Hunter and so many others died while being called words like "trap". You simply cannot have that word and not consider the problematic impliations of that kind of thinking for real life actualy human beings (like me and many others)

Once again you misrepresent arguments and put words in people's mouths.

No one said that the term trap "predates transgender people" or any of that nonsense you tried to pretend was the original argument. What we say is that the term, in the context that you are trying to challenge as "transphobic", has absolutely nothing to do with trans people because it doesn't refer to trans people.

On the subject of your continued insistence on what "encompasses" the term transgender, trying to pursue this is useless for you since the general public very clearly disagrees with you on this. These "institutions" you cite can define it all they want, but since your main argument is towards the intent and usage of the word by the average person, going against what the average person thinks would be detrimental to your argument.

Some words can obtain more than one definition within different contexts, and those definitions possibly never interacted with each other in their conception.

You keep arguing that the word itself, in this context, is "transphobic" because it may have or have had another definition that was transphobic, a definition which evolved completely independently and unrelated to the one being discussed here. This is a fallacious argument. Same word but different, unrelated definitions. This does not make the word itself "bad", nor its use within a certain context. The only thing that matters is the intent of the person using it, not the intent that someone else perceives when they see it.

I reject the very notion of ascribing intent to someone else's words in order to feel victimized by them.

Finally, let me ask you this: What is your goal with this? What do you hope to accomplish? To dissuade people from using the word "trap" to refer to "boys that look like girls"? They will simply find another word for it. What then, will you consider that word "transphobic" too? Or will it be alright because it doesn't share the same word as one that was used to insult trans people before?

In the above in my haste my fast fingers typed Tyran Hunter the second time (which was not her former name or anything just a typo…it's been a long day for me of being trans in real life and teaching science at the college level….that's why I'd call myself "sensei" I am.) Anywho here's a shorter sweeter more to the point new creation please share it widely.

Those of us out and about living as women are not simply sex objects or artifacts of fetish or trying to trap or trick men. We are just being ourselves.

My goal is for people to at least ackowledge that using the word trap to refer to essentially transgender characters in fiction has contributed to a culture that is hostile to to folks like me. To think a bit about the transwomen killed while being acused of trapping some guy.

As for your arguments trying to say that this is some definition I made up I am not citing any more soureces.

Serious debates are based on facts established by cannon, and or authoratative sources cited and quoted. I do that and you respond with diatribes. That you can actually claim to love "traps"
yet hate the people who those drawings would have to correspond to is beyond any reason or rational thought.

You simply cannot both be disgusted or despise or feel put down by having your fetish characters called transgender, then claim not to be transphobic in how you address them.

I issue a challenge to all reading this and voting me down PROVE ME WRONG BY DOING THE FOLLOWING.

Go to a transgender day of rembrance event.

Listen to the reading of the names of the slain and how and why they were slain.

Explain to a person there why you think it is OK to call these characters traps.

Then post a video or photo of yourself with one….COME OUT as liking at least drawings of gender non conforming people

Do these things and you will have proven anyone who thinks this subculture has a transphobia problem wrong about at least some of you. I'll be here waiting to see if any of you have the guts to live out and proud of what you like and who you are as those who admire a variety of transgender person, even if they are fictional.

Or I could NOT do any of that and people could stop snooping in fan bases they don't belong, do you even like anime?

"That’s not my defintion. It is the definition of both the world health organization and the American Psychological Association, and the GLADD and HRC and every other organization that represents or works with real actual transgender people even in Japan where Anime comes from."
then why did you fail to cite them in the initial post.
you cited: webmd and dictionary dot come.
and i in turn cited oxford because your argumentation relied upon a definition. one that is not universal.
and if that is undermined your argument ceases to have any really weight

. Respond with cited sources instead of invective or maybe you aren’t about serious discussion.
miss I've tried to be as clinical and as cordial as i possibly can.
So i think it's not in your best interest to say I've been unnecessarily harsh.
and i do not like that implication.

To continue to argue that in the face of evidence is not serious discussion.
it appears you have missed my citation and in the face of it added ones to the argument first not first seen.
you also appear to fundamentally miss understand something, this is not an empirical or academic claim. one does not need to argue against it with data and years of argumentation.
I mean what can i really do but provide examples of things that show your reasoning is not universal and thus not a strong enough position to apply universally.
I'm breaking your first syllogism down(as displayed by the following)

>trans = (all people that can be perceived as feminine yet retain mail anataomy)
>(all people that can be perceived as feminine yet retain mail anataomy) = traps
>trans = traps

to that end your example via gladd.
" An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms – including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures."
Again if gender expression deviations is enough to get someone labeled trans then does that not also include (all presons/personalities cited by me before, including tomboys, aggressive women, feminine cis men, men and women who do not want children, men who do not want to be providers, men who like colours associated with feminine and women who like colours associated with masculinity).
as i said before, i do not believe this definition to be representative of reality. this definition is too broad, includes people who would not identify with transgenderism, people who do not suffer from a dysphoria of the gender in any sense of the word. it sounds like another use of "nonbinary". This is not a definition a vast majority of people would accept, this is one that includes people who are not even trans.
and i really have no reason to discard the literal English dictionary (Oxford) to replace it with this one for common use.

regarding the citation of glaad (i would have assumed you'd have cited the best possible citation you had available to you so if for some reason it isn't please discard this and provide one that is more clinical
>citing glaad
I had made the assumption that the increased definition of "trans" was done so that it would appear that trans persons would be a larger group and help the advocacy of their political bugaboos and not actually inline with reality as people see it. that is why i use oxford. Again, oxford is generally even handed and then i requested for sake of accurately depicting reality we consider trans to be as the oxford group defined or as the DSM defines gender dysphoria.

" The definition of transgender clearly encompasses the characters we are discussing. To continue to argue that in the face of evidence is not serious discussion."
there has been no discussion between you AND I of any character bar from Brigit from guilty gears to my knowledge.
and to my knowledge it could be so broad that it encompasses a CIS boy who is just physically feminine but i don't think that works.

" As to arguing that somehow use of the word trap could predate either victimization of transwomen or the existence of transwomen…."
I was genuinely confused and i believe you are responding to the wrong poster here. i mean aside from this being minutia and not relevant to the argument at hand, it sounds like you are reading some twilight zone verson of what i wrote liek some broken teliphone.

now before i get into this, i think i ought remind you what primordial means. the basic or fundamental example of something (i was personally evoking the Jungian archetype). (primordial also implies no actual chronological position, just that it is existed before all things. even if i was implying it which i wasn't)
in this i am communicating that Brigid is the case zero in our discussing about the meme.
Not only is brigid not trans, (unless just being a normal feminine looking boy is enough to be considered trans).
more importantly he is the first example of trap being used or at least the one that help popularize the term on the Mongolian throat singing message board that coined the term the first and most basic example of a trap as defined by 4chons, the first users of the term in the way we understand it THUS, the first and best known trap
the primordial trap if you will.

>all the soruces
yes, two souls, the Carthaginians (though i think that might be a roman way of insulting them like the baby eaters given what i know about the Romans and their perceptions being a Hellenizing culture around this time.) i've heard them all and they really aren't relivant because i didn't make that claim.

I reserve the right to not reply at any length to anyone who chooses to ignore the way Tyran Hunter and so many others died while being called words like “trap”.
Uh good because i never made that claim i mean i was also ignorant so ignoring isn't really cognizant can't control not knowing about your bugaboo.

You simply cannot have that word and not consider the problematic impliations of that kind of thinking for real life actualy human beings (like me and many others)
1. i did, in fact i appear to have done so more than you.
to that end i have explained elsewhere that the word describes something that will not simply go away because it is taken away it will remain and find a new word. the fact you say "words like" is clear evidence for this. words exist to categorize things that we can perceive not that we can only perceive things that we categorize with words. feminine men will not go anywhere anytime soon.
2. there is no evidence and you really provide non that it is because men are blue balled that they lashout a trap requires one to pass very well and as i've explained else where that requires scrutiny of the persons sexual organs to determine. otherwise the persons you believe to be perpetrating such attacks are "bashing faggots"[sic] because do you really think those fellas really make a distinction?
3. you do not get to dictate what words people may use, you are not the boss of anyone else.

4. this was terrible through and through

I think it in extremely bad form to begin with that. and rather unnecessarily rude and honestly i don't think you are a nice person.
also what is this 2007 get with the freaking times, for godsake post a meme for the C U R R E N T Y E A R. if you are going to insult a guy

"My goal is for people to at least ackowledge that using the word trap to refer to essentially transgender characters in fiction has contributed to a culture that is hostile to to folks like me. "
i reject it out right
both the trap must refer to it and that it has contributed to a culture.
i have explained both positions at length.

"To think a bit about the transwomen killed while being acused of trapping some guy."
that is a really weird scenario
>guy is about to fuck someone
>turns out organs don't mach with what he is aroused by
>"dude why didn't you tell me this i don't like these organs, why the fuck do you have a dick, i want to crush pussy BRAH"
>"no reason given"
>dude just fucking kills them.
this is really the only instance one can be "trapped" and weird.

"Serious debates are based on facts established by cannon, and or authoratative sources cited and quoted."
you have to date cited (with me); dictonary, webmd and an advocacy group.
none of these are academic.
also one can have a serious debate without going into direct sources in this instance, see my other post.

" yet hate the people who those drawings would have to correspond to is beyond any reason or rational thought."
so this is why /a/ says to disregard 3d. i mean i think you need to lurk more.
also there is nothing that really screams hatred and nothing that is mutually exclusive with hatred and sexual attraction or hatred of irl and sexual attraction to a 2d image

"You simply cannot both be disgusted or despise or feel put down by having your fetish characters called transgender, then claim not to be transphobic in how you address them."
well yes you can. (though i think you are over ascribing emotions in this instance and given how for lack of a better word loose with your argumentation i might be right.
either way disagreeing with you that they are trans is not transphobic because disagreeing with you or having reason take umbrage with your reasoning is not congruent with hatred of trans persons. i mean jesus this is really just loving fucking feminine twinks more or less when you think of it.

"I issue a challenge to all reading this and voting me down PROVE ME WRONG BY DOING THE FOLLOWING."
no.
i mean it's not a challenge i got freaking work, why would i want to march around down town in Rush hour in a Canadian winter? when i can just drive him, sit down and forget my day?

"Do these things and you will have proven anyone who thinks this subculture has a transphobia problem wrong about at least some of you."
what subculture meme? 4chan? guys who jerk off to twinks in drag? i mean i assume you mean everyone in the thread so i guess you are saying all of KYM that is in this thread.
more to the point on one here has to have to prove anything to you.
or anyone else.
so

". I’ll be here waiting to see if any of you have the guts to live out and proud of what you like and who you are as those who admire a variety of transgender person, even if they are fictional.È
i see this is a territory grab.
nothing more.

I like anime that's why I even know about them. I read those stories and I can identify with the things that happened to the characters you claim to love because similar things have happened to me in real life.

I know exactly what it's like to be transgender and go to school. I know exactly what it's like personally have guys act like total perverts because you are transgender.

I I enjoy this kind of anime on a level you can never even imagine. Not some fetish, for me it's a slice of my life story told comic silly way that you're seeing.

What I don't enjoy or having a bunch of heterosexual men act like that exist simply for them to get their rocks off.

Again to go longer post above cite a source that contradicts me. I've Loved anime since watching bootleg VHS is in the 1980s.

Show me a cannon source that says these characters are not transgender to contradict the one I showed you that says that they are.

Show me a formally published source that supports your point of view.

Then take my challenge go out in the light of day and let the fact you like transgendered characters in anime be known. Have the guts to go to a transgender day of remembrance event and explain to them why you think it's okay to call those characters traps.

If you don't do that in as a provable fact you don't need to worry about anyone thinking you're gay because it will mean you have absolutely no balls whatsoever.

No that would be an insult all the people who actually had sex changes living out their truth in broad daylight.

Updating to correct dictation errors.

>See this thread still alive
>Oh bugger, what now? How come this is not over yet?
>Read the thread

OP, you are not even here to debate properly are you not? Because it seems you would never fold regardless of any arguments being presented or how many times you lost your case. It seem to be that you want one or more of these things:

1) Attention
2) This being a territory grab like "The greater aerie" just said

Also pardon me, but I had my suspicions that you might be one of those neoGAF deviants who has been causing headaches for many places lately and came here for scouting/territory grab. So I look you up.

You scumbag, you presented your case here, arbitrarily made up another frame when your previous ones got shattered, then you have the gall to bitch on reddit and calling us transphobic. Luckily, your post there is just as inane as your post here. It got removed by a bot because you did not even bother to read the rules on the reddit you are posting on. It was a reddit for trans shitposting? I believe? Trying to rile people up? Or just want some upboats?

Pardon me again for being extra mean and breaking so many rules here myself. But this thread is not going anywhere other than a 'trans/trap internet fame contest' and it is infuriating for me to read up as some nicer people than me came here and try to debate politely as fruitless as it may seems.

@Clownfish

1.) Attention to real life transgender issue caused by using words like trap specifically the Transgender day of remembrance where we gather to remember trans women killed by men often with the excuse that they were "trapped" or "tricked" into being aroused. (We also commemorate FTM trans men who are killed but that is a much less common occurence.)

2.) I am an anime fan. So are many transgender people. We are part of your group in that sense but usually avoid forums like this one because of the hostility we encounter.

As to the rest of your comment.

I didn't "make up" an arbitrary frame since posting a peer reviewed, official definition of the word transgender gets no where with you visual learners… how about a meme.

It depends if the "trap" character identifies as a girl or not. Natsu pointed out early in the thread that it's usually not the case, it also depends on what trans individuals themselves think of the word. If they don't like being associated with the word "trap", then they should be polite and tell.

Edit: On the subject of cross dressing, there is a difference between dressing as the opposite sex because you identify as said sex, and someone who likes the feminine or masculine aesthetics of cross dressing. Something something boys who like Barbie.

Exactly, before the thread became all about whether any traps at all could possibly be transsexual, in the western concept of the word, I was going to get to that.

Then you have people trying to argue that CLEARLY transsexual, let alone transgender characters, like Daruku or even Jun Watarase are just guys who like to dress up.

If it looks, acts, and quacks like a duck it's just duck.
If she wears dresses, and lives like a woman but was born with a ding a ling she's transgender.

Be polite and tell
Transgender women have even been brutally killed when they were picked up at all trans bars or clubs and taken home with the full knowledge of their killers. It is not just a matter of a word for reference a turn of phrase. Real life transwomen have been KILLED with that excuse being used.

Still the excuse that they were trapped is used.

Out of sensitivity I post the following as links not images. This is one example of the real reason why calling these characters traps is problematic.
WARNING this is a photo of the aftermath of the murder of Jennifer Laude. This is NOT for sensitive viewers

This is why it is not cool to use the word trap, especially outside of anime,

Consider this article about cosplaying while trans. I am hardly the only transgender anime fan who feels this way. Even if you might not there are some fools who would call a transwoman a "trap" no matter what she's dressed as and not do it in any kind of a nice way even in anime con context.

That barmy umbrella is the exact bloody problem because it is wrong on so many levels. Do you even know what a eunuch is? "Peer-reviewed official"? You mean what you and your fellow cronies conjure up from thin air and agreed within that circle alone and trying to push it onto others?

A man who likes colour pink might seems feminine, but he marries a woman and have a healthy family with her, is he also a transgender under that bollocks term of yours?

A girl who likes hanging out with the bros, pretty tomboyish, does not like girlish stuffs, she rather be on a football (soccer for you over there) field with the guys; but ultimately straight as an arrow. Is. She. A. Bloody. Trans. As. Well.

A eunuch is a castrated man who serves the dynasties in the past, especially ones with harem. Often served as the harems guard and/or servants because they cannot fool around with the emperors harem. Some served as advisers, as the emperors are not fools, the clever ones could establish their power within the palace and if they can have a family to pass down their legacy can be a threat later. Are those proud and dutiful men who would cast off their balls and manhood to be of service to their homeland are as asinine think of themselves as a woman and fool around like you and your friends?

Hostility you met is from the fact that you try to peddle your bollocks to others and cry transphobe (is this even a word?) when they do not want any.

Oh? And that trans who got killed by a man who was deceived into doing something he never want to do, and in rage, killed him? I am not going to argue. The killer is at fault, but the trans is not an angel either. If someone deceived you into having an intercourse with someone out of your orientation, and that shit is extremely horrifying; would not you be angry too? Yet you solely blame 'transphobia' (is this also even a word?) for what transpired but not the deception some shitty trans practiced (afaik, some trans are open about it to not screw anyone over later).

Your entire premise is all over absolutely nothing. Sod off with this nonsense. I am done.

PS. You liar, the article (and it was CNN, eww) you linked with the text that suggests the killer has full prior knowledge, but the article itself have nothing about it. Going to blame CNN now too?

Ok for real, I've gotten sick of reading this.
Your entire argument hinges on a definition that no-one with any common sense would use, you may as well be arguing to me that the "People's Democratic Republic of North Korea" is any of those things because of what the words literally mean, nobody cares what incorrect definition you pull from a dictionary, words change,and the definition you're using is so arbitrary to the point of uselessness.
You literally tried to argue that someone wearing a pair of socks labeled as female, which could've easily been socks made identically to others marked as male, is transgender. Nobody in their right mind would agree with such a definition, it's utterly meaningless. If you took a poll of what "transgender" meant, I guarantee you 90+% of people would give you something along the lines of "someone with gender dysphoria", and yet you continue wasting people's time with a definition nobody here subscribes to, for good reason.
You're not getting another response out of me, because that's the entire crux of your argument gone, and all you can reply with is a reinforcement of something no-one you're arguing with believes to be true.

@ Clownfish and Pyroniusburn your post prove my point about the use of the word trap being rooted in transphobia towards real life actual trans women among "western" audiences better than I could.

On a lighter note here is a graphic created by the very ANTI LGBT group Focus on the Family which agrees with every other definition I've given you. Keep on saying that I just now for this post made it up.

Take up my challenges. Go to a transgender day of remembrance event. Hear the names of who was killed the how and the why. Then try to tell someone there it's OK to call someone a "trap" because they are convincing and passing. Come out to them about your attraction to the concept of people who change gender. Then post a picture proving you did this.

Someone who has done at least those things has earned my respect and the ability for their opinion to cause me any harm. I suspect anyone with the backbone to do this will come away agreeing with me.

On the assertion that no anime fan would ever use the term trap for people that meet the broad definition of "transgender IRL, or transsexual IRL.

Listen to this guy. He's a HUGE anime fan. Doing the very transphobic thing in a fully anime related context.

He refers to women who are a bit masculine, and men who are a bit feminine and even a good number of well known trans-women as being "traps". Calling someone he thinks is MTF a "dude".

Guys, you don't get to do that and say you're not transphobic.

If you really love folks like us as much as you think, take up my challenge OR at the very least be more careful of how what you say effects us.

My last word on this for a while is to post this video from a asian, male to female full time crossdresser who personally does not mind being called a trap YET makes it clear that outside of certain context DO NOT CALL SOMEONE A TRAP.

The first example she mentions is even a trans porn star at an anime con in 2007 having a crowd of people around her chanting trap, trap, trap, trap!

If listening to me is too hard maybe this will get through to ya'll.

You seem to be assuming that by banging your opinion into our heads enough, we'll join the hivemind.

This is getting ridiculous. Multiple people have shown you evidence contrary to your claim, and you just ignore it because it doesn't line up with your world view.

Grow up, and learn how to debate, instead of just throwing a tantrum, covering your ears and going "LALALALA"

1. old memes, stank memes
is this really the site for you i know the ebin maymay of us being a trump shitposting site but we pretend to be into mems.
and all of you memes are terrible.
i mean i don't know how you fail to get good image macros and memes on a a cataloguing site of memes

2. the assertion that we claim you made up the definition.
I've said this time and again. we did not. I said at least that you used one that is not universal and it was what you built the foundations of your argumentation.

I also do not believe people will accept the christian citation, i don't know why you didn't just link to them because they had strong terms on that including

"To summarize, “transgender” doesn’t just refer those who “transition” to live as the opposite sex. It includes to a wide-ranging, ever-growing, ill-defined number of people with any number of “gender identities.”"

now i have problems using an advocacy group at any point to demonstrate anything, they are quite willing to wrap things together and they push to maintain gods bathroom law or whatever it would again serve them better to cast the net and say LOOK SO MANY PEOPLE CAN NOW GO AND MESS WITH YOUR WIFE AND KIDS.
more to the point why would i believe a christian theological take on it, i understand you are trying to indicate it is so universal that even your opponents recognize it but we are talking about christian conservatives here. they'd wrap you together because it's against god's law or something.
furthermore they do not recognize it as legitimate but as a method by trans activists to expand the definition (i guess even a Protestant can see the blinkingly obvious light)

but there is something you have failed to address, with trans gender (as people would normally refer to it as {gender dysphoria} that definition encompassed a for lack of a better term psychological problem. A person who one could empathize with because of internal stress as the result of biological and psychological reasons.the other groups listed are actually ill defined and do not seem to directly mention anyone with dysphoria. how is it indeed useful to use the umbrella of trans (from transition) to refer to persons that can be refer to as non-binary, non-conforming or whatever descriptor. it is a failed categorization because indeed the supergroup is the sub group and the subgroup is the supergroup it makes no logical sense. and seems honestly to be poltical..

it also completely lessens the impact of accusation of transphobia. before it was a term for hatred of something entirely internal and uncontrollable but those ill defined groups being fed into it makes it lose it's real impact. (i mean aside the fact that you accuse people of it without a solid reason like it's going out of style.)
for example.
>person x disbelieves that gender fluid exists and hates the persons who use the term.
this is now immediately conflated with hating trans persons whom appear to have a actual condition that is warranting of sympathy.

3. your statement that NO would do X
I doubt people believed that NO persons would conflate trap and trans i mean if they did they are stupid you just did this entire thread.

4. stop with this fucking challange
nobody's going to do it we don't have to prove anything to you.

they do bring up a good line, one you haven't addressed. why should i give a flying crap about the TRANS if it ceases to refer to a group of persons who do not have dysphoria and can include persons that fall out of line

going more into

I've seen no "evidence" in this thread. Only opinions.
At least, Uttamattamakin has the decency of providing links and whatnot.

hey i've also done that
(once)
but even then i don't think any of the links are really any good.

the issue here is looking at "traps" in the wrong cultural context. (perhaps you might call this "cultural appropriation"?)

crossdressing means different things in america in japan. in america, someone who crossdresses outside of a shakespeare play is almost universally assumed to be LGBT in some way or another, and as such the vast majority of crossdressers in america and american fiction are either trans or drag queens.

this isn't the case in japan and, by extension, anime and japanese video games. crossdressing is considered unusual, but it's not associated with LGBT culture. crossdressers in anime – which are generally what people are referring to when they talk about "traps" – are almost invariably cisgender. americans see these characters and say "oh that guy is dressed as a woman, he must be MtF transgender" – but that's not the case. it's putting "traps" in a cultural context that misrepresents them.

tl;dr traps aren't gay

This isn't the first time I've seen this argument. The fact remains that getting offended over innocuous stuff like "trap" only serves to make your cause look bad.

So save your rage for real issues, there are plenty of real problems in the world, you don't have to go around making them up.

If there was a sentient wooden box with a stick and string on the end of it wearing a wig would it still be offensive to call it a trap?

@Snickerway.
I agree and disagree you are right and also wrong.

Gender identities and transgenderism are expressed differently across cultures. So clearly the words don't mean quite the same thing here as they do there and vice versa.

However, I can cite for you and have above real life post operative transsexuals from Japan who ID using the word otokono ko which anime mostly translates as "trap". There are also part time cross dressers who ID the same way. Truth is in Japan people we distinguish all ID using the same term.

In Japan someone we'd call a cross dresser on one hand, and someone we'd call a transsexual on the other, may both very well use the same exact word and think of themselves as being different in degree not kind.

You are very right about an important thing though. Whichever side of all this we come down on we all need to be sure not to project our cultures ideas onto anime.

This is why I like to refer to the source material for the word and how it is used and how they themselves translate it when they bother to explain.

@CrashGordon94
Clearly it is not innocuous to a lot of people.

@thelastmethbender
Depends if the wooden box is OK with being called a trap or not. Again you could try asking it.

Your point is that traps are not real people eh. Perhaps that no one would call a real life trans woman a trap?

Consider the content of reddit /r/traps it is almost all real life transgender women who have had breast implants and clearly had work done and hormones. (For the record I only looked there to see if they discussed anime after all ya'll say this is just about anime and anime fans…right.)

Then there is the famous Bailey J who is now a big tranny porn star but was called a trap by many and by herself once. Is she still? Ask her.

It is so so simple you just have to ask her.

Love the "avatar" by the way .

I'm just quoting this post because I still believe it's very relevant, but I'll get onto that later.

---

Uttamattamakin wrote:

[Wikipedia link for Trans]

In return, I offer advice, post the Wiki link for Transvestism or the one for Cross-dressing next time. Like was debunked before, dictionary defintions for umbrella terms can become outdated and leave something to be desired, instead aim for the specifics.

First thing first:

Great. So do we all agree (or at least you and I agree) traps are a variety of transgender person?

I saved you the trouble here, but yeah those links do make clear it falls under the umbrella term transgender. I can be stubborn all I want, but if you're right, you're right. Terminology wise, it checks out.

But that's also where that ends.

Honey, if you aren’t full time you would not be a real life analog of a trap. All these characters these otokonoko are out there in the world living 24×7 not just putting on a couple articles of female clothes and masturbating.

This is where you're wrong. Those links also make clear transvestism comes in various types and stages. I wish I could link the Dutch one here, but that's kinda hard so just take my word on it here: You have transvestites who just do it to look the other gender at certain private times, but also those who attempt it 24×7 like you pointed out.

Simply put: Just because they only wear specific articles of clothing at specific times doesn't suddenly make them unrelated to traps. They are within the scale, accept that; otherwise you're being transphobic yourself.

In those links, cross-dressing is even described as a sub-group of transvestism and was created as a term because cross-dressers didn't identify with transvestism let alone transgender.

This link even makes clear that cross-dressers tend to not identify with LGBTQ community (bolding the T here). It also makes clear it's a grey area, as is always the case with labels. And as we can agree, traps fall under the cross-dressing banner and not necessarily the trans banner.

Terminology wise, sure, you might be right. But terminology isn't the same as practice when it comes to the grey area that is labels which are constantly evolving. It is simply common that cross-dressers just don't identify with the LGBTQ community, as for example do those on this forum that identify as traps. Respect their cross-dressing and trap identity choices the same as you wish we would accept your transgender identity choices.

---

Which brings me back to why I quoted the post I did from the previous page:

None of you are wrong, none of you are right. This is a grey area for which your opinions can simply differ, as they clearly do here. OP is an unique case against many who disagree, but even OP isn't fully in the wrong.

Compromise must work both ways and respect requires both sides.

tl;dr traps aren’t gay

gay

Ok, second post, and this round it's a mod post (yeah that's why I'm making 2 posts this time).

As long as the thread is civil, there’s no need for us to pull mod cards.

I should've known better.

---

OP wrote:

[Violence topic]

I'm in the middle on whether or not this can be considered a derail, but it has certainly gone from a discussion to a lecture.

This thread isn't a soapbox, stick to discussing. Warning in advance.

I issue a challenge to all reading this and voting me down PROVE ME WRONG BY DOING THE FOLLOWING.

It's literally 1 vote. Stop trying to appear a victim and focus on the topic at hand instead of derailing it. If it gets derailed it becomes a target for a lock.

---

Not cool.

You scumbag

Not cool.

[Same stuff]

Not. Cool.

It's a loaded topic, so I'm arguing with myself if I should send out warnings over this.

If this continues though, I most certainly will. Consider this everyone's official warning.

---

Clownfish wrote:

Also pardon me, but I had my suspicions that you might be one of those neoGAF deviants who has been causing headaches for many places lately and came here for scouting/territory grab. So I look you up.
You scumbag, you presented your case here, arbitrarily made up another frame when your previous ones got shattered, then you have the gall to bitch on reddit and calling us transphobic. Luckily, your post there is just as inane as your post here. It got removed by a bot because you did not even bother to read the rules on the reddit you are posting on. It was a reddit for trans shitposting? I believe? Trying to rile people up? Or just want some upboats?
Pardon me again for being extra mean and breaking so many rules here myself. But this thread is not going anywhere other than a ‘trans/trap internet fame contest’ and it is infuriating for me to read up as some nicer people than me came here and try to debate politely as fruitless as it may seems.

Can I get links on that?

Hospitality is a natural thing we should promote in this forum, but if OP is using this thread for a hidden agenda to paint the site in a bad spotlight, I might seal its fate.

Please, whatever takes to stop this attention whoring.

Edit: Ok that was harsh, still this thread is freaking awful

I believe Clownfish is referring to this right here. Seems to fit what Clownfish was talking about.