File : 1309963244.jpg-(113 KB, 699x312, Romans_Americans.jpg) O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:40 No.15491610 Ok /tg/, my next campaign involves a bunch of Romans (led by a much less killed by Parthians Crassus) who ended up landing in what is now Los Angeles, from around the year 50 BC, thanks to Chinese magic warping their inconvenient expedition 'somewhere out of the way.' The better part of two thousand years later, explorers from Europe bumble into the Americas while looking for tea, and find an eerily familiar "Atlantean Empire" just constructing ships of their own to figure out what is on the other side of that very same ocean. Those European explorers are my players. So /tg/, I need ideas for how Romans+Native Americans would look culturally, militarily and as an Empire. This is of course assuming that even with their initial advantage and powerful culture, the Romans would've had to absorb many times their number worth of Americans to survive in their new home, and thus, would probably have adopted a lot of distinctly I---- traits alongside their own. Also, is this a cool idea, y/n? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:46 No.15491637 Hmm. I'm tempted to say that, with the Native American stance on landownership (you don't, and how could you?), land might be considered a matter of the res publica rather than a private person's. (This assumes the Romans accept the idea of shared landownership and integrate that with the idea of the public matter, rather than go LOL NO and hand out I---- lands for their veterans.) >Antipater temonas How Roman of you, captcha. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:47 No.15491649 >>15491637 I've serious doubts that they would harmonize their ideals with the Injuns. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:50 No.15491664 File1309963816.jpg-(192 KB, 1024x819, Roman Sophitia.jpg) I can't see the Romans respecting a people who haven't figured out how to fight real wars yet. West coast native americans were very much this. They were less developed than the aborigines for God's sake, at least the Australian natives had figured out spears. Then again, it probably won't matter, because of how many goddamn women they're going to need to buy or steal. I don't know how many chicks these guys thought to bring along, but unless they invented co-ed legions while I wasn't looking, they're going to have to pull the whole Sabine Women thing every other day for the first few decades if they want a stable population base. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:51 No.15491676 >>15491637 Two generations after the Romans build their first city, every kid from all the tribes in the area will either have citizenship or be waiting for one. Wisdom of the land and harmony with the spirits is fine only as long as you don't have an alternative. Romans got so big because most of the conquered populations wanted to be Romans, too. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:58 No.15491753 >>15491649 >l've serious doubts that they would harmonize their ideals with the Injuns. This. We're talking about a Roman Legion in a climate reminiscent of their home (i.e. not too hot, not too cold). They certainly wouldn't be starving or dying. They would impose their upon the Natives. End off. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:01 No.15491792 Don't forget the effect of introducing European disease into the Americas fifteen hundred years early. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:03 No.15491811 >>15491758 I think it would end up like this: Alright you savages, listen up. We're right, you're wrong. You believe what we believe now. That thing you always believe in? Turns out it was secretly this thing we believe in. And a bunch of Indian slowly trying to merge their ancestors stuff with the shiny people's beliefs. So what we end up with is a clusterfuck of Native American ideas with a Roman veneer. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:08 No.15491842 File1309964901.jpg-(21 KB, 143x231, Zeus_Troll.jpg) >>15491811 >mfw Coyote was just Zeus coming down in animal form to r--- delicious squaw O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:10 No.15491850 >>15491610 >constructing ships of their own to figure out what is on the other side of that very same ocean. I don't need to tell you how f------ bad this is for Europe, do l? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:13 No.15491868 /tg/ dismisses the native Americans too easily. When they weren't fighting people with guns, they did pretty damn well. They regularly slapped the Viking's s--- if you remember. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:18 No. 15491900 >>15491868 That's true. But those were East-Coast indians, fighting against what amounted to the crews of boats. This is a fully formed land army that somehow ended up in West-Coast America. The western injuns did not have a particularly well honed martial tradition. Didn't even have the concept of dedicated melee weapons down, as far as I know. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:39 No.15491983 >>15491929 There is some hope. Southern California is so ridiculously fertile that a scottsman could piss on it and grow hops, and the Pacific is MADE out of fish. If the Romans were to spread out along the coast and rely heavily on fishing for a few years, they might be able to get something resembling agriculture going with corn. Other problems with less in the way of answers are: -Women -Domestic animals (would they be able to breed more horses with their limited stock?) -Metal (with zero in the way of native exploitation, how the hell would the Romans find and harvest more metal for tools and weapons? ) -Alcohol (The Romans relied so much on f------ vinegar for everything that they'd probably kill themselves if they realized they were going to run out.) O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:58 No.15492119 >>15491983 It seems to me that the shock of the transition would either cause the Romans to march inland/along the coast and die, or spread out relatively widely, developing agricultural and fishing systems quickly (after all, they would have had plenty of former farmers). There would be a LOT of breeding with native women, but Roman culture would probably be pretty much upheld, and you'd end up with a very self-reliant, organized nation with one hell of a founding story. Also, with no Christanity and no dark ages, you'd probably have a very different idea of science and philosophy. I'd guess that very logical, Grecian philosophy mixed with Roman ideals of self-reliance and the State would be the main influence on their culture, and rather than the scientific method they would be focused around heavy engineering based on theoretical innovations, rather than the hypothesis, trial, implementation method. Chances are that means bigger buildings, and a focus on practicality. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:26 No.15492311 >>15492201 The legions carried everything with them. They were basically living on the stone age wherever they went, carrying everything they needed with them. They even had their own smiths. Raw materials will be a problem, but in no way would the legions be in "deep s---". We're talking about a fully self-sufficient force capable of fending for themselves. Granted, there will likely be bitching when it comes time to reforge some of those weapons into farmtools and it will be a pretty "You want to WHAT?" when someone mentions that we're better off with rudimentary spears, resource-wise, than full swords; but no, that's not "Deep s---". O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:31 No.15492353 >>15492311 Didn't they also have the usual train of prostitutes, traders etc.? Have a large enough base of women, and you might not even need the natives (who'd probably be dying off from European diseases anyway). Hell. plonk an apothecary or two and you've got the basis for a city right there. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:32 No.15492365 A fascinating idea. I think the legion would be just fine. After a century or two of establishing an economic and cultural base, they would begin a conquest of the coasts or california and uniting all the various tribes. You know, kind of like EXACTLY how Rome itself came to be. It would basically be the Aeneid all over again. I also like the idea of native auxiliaries that were mentioned by another anon earlier. Most of the tribesmen would be trained/cultured to fight in the roman style, but Rome as also famous for taking the concepts and tactics of their enemies into their own ways of fighting, and then improving upon them. I'm now imagining lorica wearing, face-painted, tomahawk wielding skirmishers that shout war cries as they charge into battle for scalp trophies to present to Caesar, the son of the Jupiter Eagle. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:33 No.15492371 >>15492311 That's pretty deep s---. Anywhere else, at any point in history, pretty much no matter who you took as your control group, that would be the apocalypse. Romans are just abnormally buoyant in s---. Romans live in the s--- pool. Romans can tread s--- indefinitely. So they'll live. But this is a phenomenally bad situation, even for them. Evidently they survive and prosper, since we can already see into the future a thousand years and they now run the entire continent, but nobody's going to be looking back at this time as a happy one. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:37 No.15492407 The Natives shouldn't be underestimated but we're talking about Romans fighting in a land with a lot of open plains in a land where NOBODY has horses. That in mind, will the Romans have enough horses with them to maintain a breeding stock? What the f--- are they going to do for communication and supply without all those horses? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:43 No.15492451 >>15492407 I would assume that as soon as the romans figured out they weren't in Roman Kansas any more, they would immediately build a frontier fort and settle into one spot. The war horses would be preserved, because people aren't stupid about wasting extremely valuable war horses. So basically, they would probably cut their active cavalry cohort in half, keeping one half combat ready and the other half for breeding. Wait. F---. Weren't warhorses primarily stallions? I don't know if they would even have female horses for breeding, which f------ sucks for EVERYONE since horses are an integral part of society at that time period. Horses were used for EVERYTHING O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:46 No.15492476 >>15492407 I'd say it would depend on how much of their force was auxiliary cavalry. Conveniently, we know that the man in charge of this expedition was f------ Crassus, who had a force with enormous cavalry support for a Roman army of his day, because he knew he was going to be fighting Parthians. However he ended up in China and then America, that means he's got a good, diverse stock of horse, with more probably drawn from Bactria and the verious Hellanistic and Persian demikingdoms in that region. So assuming total manpower including support personnel, slaves and w----- in the baggage train totals out to about 50,000, horsepower and mules should probably number in the region of 20,000. Mules, of course, are sterile, so when they're done they're done, but there also might be civilian donkeys to breed (they did have to pass through Asia Minor...) chickens were usually kept with the army for the officers, cows are a longshot but conceivable, as milk was believed helpful for the wounded, and pigs are a moot point since the west coast is f------ made of boars. They'll probably manage. The biggest threat to Roman survival right now is the potential of disease. The Black Death hasn't happened yet, nor has Smallpox, which were the two major killers of the natives. Obviously tedious s--- like the flu and the measles will probably kill umpteen million of them, but what if something hits them back? The Romans did not have as sound of a grasp of medicine or disease as the historic European colonists did, after all. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:03 No.15492669 >>15492371 Oh, don't get me wrong (I'm the one you responded to). I didn't mean to say that they weren't in s---. Just not DEEP s---. I mean, they'll have a hard time, but there's no way in hell that the first two generations will have much of a problem, due to the know-how and resources they have with them (after all, with a smith, the armors and weapon, these could last for years of continuous use or be reforged) And after those two-or-so (I'm pulling "two generations" out my ass here; it just seems like a reasonable number in my head) generations, they should have everything necessary up and running. I mean, not only would they have tents, ditches and fortifications up and running the first night, but within a week you'd have a full fort. Fun fact: EVERY time the Roman Legions made camp, they made fortifications. Every single night. In times of great war or when many legions marched together, entire regions were deforested, just because they needed fortifications for nightfall. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:05 No.15492690 >European explorers arrive >"Ave, fishermen. We are not familiar with your tribe, but we greet you." >"We're not fishermen, we're... Are you speaking Latin?" >"...Yes. Why?" >"Nevermind. We're from Spain." >"...I do not know of this Spain." >"Look, nevermind, we just got here from across the sea, we're looking for India. Is this India?" >"I have never heard of, nor seen an India. Perhaps it is one of the local tribes?" >"No, nevermind. You are very strange, you speak a very old language, and that armor, it reminds me of something. I say, may I ask you something?" >"What is it, friend?" >"Where does that road you're paving lead?" >"Where do all roads lead?" O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:07 No.15492715 GUYS we should think about what the Romans would make of the event. When OP's players come in 2 thousand years later, OP better have an f------ awesome myth of the founding of the Atlantean Empire. Maybe some sort of fusion between Roman and Native American mythology? I don't know a thing about early Native American mythology. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:13 No.15492777 >>15492715 >l don't know a thing about early Native American mythology. That's because there weren't really any (at least not when we showed up) a uniform myth. It's a mish-mash of animism and shamanism. All in all, it's pretty easy to reconcile with the Greco-Roman faith, actually, especially if you consider that the Roman faith was pretty monolithic in it's dieties, while the indians were a diverse number of minor myths about a number of animal dieties or creationary spirits. So take the regular polytheistic faith of the Romans (Or any old European faith, really) and then allow for various minor spirits. Obviously, the great spirits will be merged with pre-existing Gods. Jupiter may aquire eagle-like characteristics, for example. But overall, split the faith in two. One with dominant, monolithic gods, subject to the traditional hierarchy. And another part, venerating the spirits of any one animal, or the spirits of a forest. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:17 No.15492814 >>15492777 >Roman faith >monolithic Only if you use 'monolithic' to mean "Hey, there's this god that people over there pray to. They're now part of the Empire... and, hey, look! That god is really a facet of INSERTGODOFCHOICEHERE." O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:07 No.15492719 File1309972054.jpg-(15 KB, 220x220, 220px-Roman_Cavalry_2[1].jpg) >>15492407 >That in mind, will the Romans have enough horses with them to maintain a breeding stock? Are we talking a full legion here? If so, yes. There may be some inbreeding for a few generations, but nothing major enough to substantially degenerate the stock. I mean, yeah, sure, they would possibly degenerate a bit, but not to the point of not being useful for breeding anymore. Yeah that's right kids; The romans had horses and the romans had cavalry, even though you never get to see them in all the fancy movies. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:55 No.15493096 File1309974944.jpg-(102 KB, 576x542, road[1].jpg) >>15492895 >Would legions have people with them who would understand how a lot of Roman technology worked? The Legion would have well-educated nobles in the top tiers, as well a an assorted number of learned men, and assistants. Each squad (I forget their name) had at least one man that could read/write. On top of all that, the Legion would certainly have at least a group of military engineers capable of building or organizing the construction of everything from battlements to aqueducts. Add to that apprentices of those military engineers. Fun roman fact: Did you know that the Roman Legions were the ones to build most of the roads in the Roman State? As they marched from one place to another, they also put up new roads. This was such a bitch a number of small rebellions happened over it, but they did it, and roads were the foundation of both troop movements and commerce. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)14:01 No.15493134 Also, don't forget that the Roman economy depended upon slaves. In the end, the legionnaires are not farmers. In my mind, they would likely start enslaving surrounding tribes fairly quickly. Both for breeding and work. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:18 No.15493700 I foresee a lot of the local natives simply moving away from the Romans. There were few to no major agricultural settlements anywhere on the continent at the time. In fact, the archaeological record is pretty spotty at about 50AD in North America. Let's assume the Romans catch, r---/enslave, and generally colonize California and the surrounding regions for a good few hundred years and don't manage to make contact with Teotihuacan before its collapse around 600AD. The Maya flourished in the jungles of modern Guatemala and Chiapas, Mexico until 950 AD (collapse of their empire, not that they disappeared). That's a long time for a highly ambitious empire like the Americo-Romans to make contact with. The people that would become the Aztecs migrated south from Utah in the 1300s, following a dwarf (you heard me, a dwarf, like the Gimli kind) named Huitzilopotchli to Mexico (Our stout friend would turn into a rock on the way and have to be carried). Would the Americo-Romans interrupt that migration? What then? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:26 No.15493753 >>15493728 though they'd probably contact the Aztecs prior to the height of their civilization which might spur on advances in Aztec culture. In the event the Romans don't take over the Aztecs for whatever reason, they won't be pushovers by the time the Spanish arrive O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:26 No.15493756 File1309980381.jpg-(67 KB, 1004x358, take all my money.jpg) STAKETHIS MYLOVE MY ANGER AND ALL OF MY MONEY! Oh, god, Aztec culture and Roman style armors blended... O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:53 No.15493960 >>15493876 The general tack of colonization, though, will be interesting, as it will originate from the west. I'm seeing an expedition across the peninsula somewhere around Oaxaca / Vera Cruz, since the other options are OVER A FUCKHUGE MOUNTAIN, ACROSS A FUCKHUGE DESERT, or THROUGH THE FUCKHUGE JUNGLE. (Which is going to be the impression the Roman transplants take away from their new surrounds - everything is FUCKHUGE.) If they continue tracking the coast, they'll come up to Fuckhuge Swamp and the estuary of the Fuckhuge River. They go far enough upriver, they'll come to the confluences of the Mississippi and the Ohio, and then the Mississippi and the Missouri. They'll look east and see forested hills and fertile floodplains. They'll look west and see the FUCKHUGE PLAINS. Jackpot. This is why I see the eventual capital of Atlantis sitting somewhere between St. Louis and Cairo, IL. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:05 No.15494070 >>15493985 Now we're getting into cultural questions. How strongly do they associate with The Event that dumped them in Cali? Do their cultural mores outweigh sensible logistics? Does the first settlement become more than just another in a long series of outposts, and does culture and governance eventually flow from there? In that case, I see them having administrative capitals elsewhere but the spiritual (and core governmental capital) would remain in California. But Romans are noted pragmatists. Running the colonization of an entire continent from the tiny sliver of land between the FUCKHUGE Mountains and the FUCKHUGE Ocean, bordered to the south by the FUCKHUGE Desert? Bad logistics. It might even doom them to being a regional player. (Which, we know they're not. They won. We're figuring out the how.) O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:05 No.15494072 >>15494003 And when some well to do tinkerer gets his hands on some fine spun decorative copper, some lemon juice or vinegar, some clay pots, and some iron (smelted into small bars and ingots), with a tiny bit of a mixup in storage? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:16 No.15494146 >>15494003 I can see the various client states and regions pledging various degrees of allegiance to Atlantis, possibly engaging in some spirited border skirmishes and maybe an outright smash and grab or two. I think the biggest thing that would keep the Atlantean Empire intact as a continental body would be good ol' Roman pragmatism. You pay lip service to Atlantis, submit your taxes (nearly) as ordered and (relatively) on time, and you supply legions as requested. You do this, and you're mostly left alone to do as you see fit. You fail to do this or refuse, and the REST of the legions are going to come methodically destroy and enslave you, and put someone better-behaved in your place. It would only be if the totality of the Empire fell apart, and NOBODY was supplying legions to enforce Atlantis' will, that would result in mass balkanization. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:58 No.15494557 >>15494072 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery And telegraph lines. How much easier would running an empire be with some of those, eh? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:22 No.15494807 What did we say, anyway? Since I'm not American, I just sorta phased out when people started talking about location, with mention of a bunch of locations that meant nothing to me. They appear on the west coast? North or South? I can see them following the coastline, mostly, really. Especially since they have no idea where they are - for all we know, they can consider it another coastline of the Mediterranean for years, maybe several hundred, depending on their technological development and spread. I don't think they took any astronomers with them and the odds of there being seamen is low. Although it's not inconceivable that there are. Not being able to immediately find well-known astronomical markers may be a dead tipoff that they may be in Kansas evermore. I don't see them holding together a Americas-spanning Empire befor the advent of the telegraph and train a reason the Roman grew up aro the Medit ot of travel will be by boat for a very long time. anea Although it would be f------ awesome if they could devise long-range travel by special aqueducts. Actually, this raises a pretty interesting question, now that I think about it. There wasn't really anything preventing the romans from cross-atlantic travel. And these people will obviously have boats. And chances that they are still on Terra (Mars is where he's supposed to be. So is Jupiter. And if anyone had any doubts, Luna is right f------ there, every night). that they will be able to readily identify specific astronomical markers in order to establish Who's to say that they don't just up and sail home after a hundred-or-so years? Or even less, provided they can find the resources. Just throwing it out there. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:29 No.15494878 >>15494807 romans really didnt have the kind of boats required to cross an ocean also it is perfectly possible for the Cali-romans to stumle upon using electricity though happy accidents that result in something akin to a baghdad batter and then experimenting with it I think given their circumstances they'd have had to experiment with all sorts of things around them to figure out how to best make use of what they have since most of the plants and wildlife around is unlike what they'd be used to maybe have it so the cali-romans are signifigantly more advanced with electricity to the point of having telegraphs but they are lagging behind europeans with gunpowder? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:31 No.15494906 Wait, what about the Chinese? Would there be a big Chinese myth about how they used their magic to disappear a goddamn Roman Legion? Would they remember it on the off chance the Atlantean Empire expanded off into the Pacific? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:35 No.15494944 >>15494906 they'd have legends of robed sorcerer monks from the far east, inflated into legendary hyperboles over time if they found china again they'd probably want to pick up where their ancestors left off O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:41 No.15495006 >>15494878 Sure, but if they're smart enough to pick up telegraphs, then they're not going to take more than one or two encounters to begin experimenting for gunpowder. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:50 No.15495099 >>15495006 Gunpowder came about in China because someone was trying to find an immortality drug and discovered that if you mix charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter, that s--- explodes. I don't know about charcoal, but if you had a Atlantean tinkerer or chemist somewhere around that could find an excuse to put all that stuff together -maybe for introducing incense to some new Roman/Native American cult around Portland, Oregon, or some damn thing- you'd have gunpowder. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:54 No.15495137 On the one hand you have maybe 70-100 european explorers armed mostly with swords and crossbows, with a few guns and maybe a cannon or two thrown in. The wealthy will have a horse, which in fact kicks them up into a higher catagory when the loot is divided. Armor is mostly a steel breastplate and helmet. On the other you have the entirety of the Tenth Legion and four cohorts of Sioux Auxila and two of Huron. I know who I'm placing my money on. The Romans will have gunpowder tech a few weeks after they capture a few guns. And if they capture a few guns, they're gonna capture more then a few Spaniards. Who, properly motivated, will teach the romans how to make gunpowder. And Guns. Ten years later the Senate orders 12 legions to launch an invasion against Spain under the command of the rising star Marcus Four Winds Crassus. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:55 No.15495155 >>15495099 Indeed, I didn't mean to imply that they wouldn't have gunpowder, only that they would be behind at it in relation to the europeans giving the telegraphs and similarly leveled electrical technologies would give europeans a profound sense of wonder and awe O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:58 No.15495183 >>15495137 and then they learn what happened to the 'old rome' O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:08 No.15495282 >>15495183 >Implying a unified rome with the resources of north america wouldn't totally destroy most of Europe. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:11 No.15495314 >>15495282 World War 1 comes early in this timeline O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:22 No.15495416 >>15495314 It'd make for a fuckawesome global war, but I actually think it'd stave off WWI. wWI came about because of tensions between the European nations; if they had an outside enemy to worry about, they might well have banded together against it and smoothed over their problems. Whether hostilities would break out between them and Ameri-Romans, l'm not sure. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:24 No.15495439 >>15495416 well I was just saying that war between Ameri-Rome and europe would be large enough to be called a world war though it'd be a hell of a lot different O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:33 No.15495520 >>15495487 also the Aztecs might have wisened up a bit through their contact with Rome to actually persist long enough to be considered a regional contender if they get their game enough to conclude peace treaties with rome they might take to conquering southward outside of rome's reach O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:36 No.15495548 >>15495520 The thought of an Aztec empire, battle hardened by fights with Romans resisting a Spanish invasion and unifying all of South America under Aztec rule is terrifying. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:38 No.15495583 >>15495548 WHICH MAKES IT F------ HORRIFYINGLY AWESOME O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:41 No.15495611 >>15495548 Gentlemen. Roman North Americans Aztec South Americans Chinese East Asians Prussian Europeans Russian West Asians Persian Middle Easterners And.. someone in africa. The wars will go on forever. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:43 No.15495630 >>15495611 F--- IT. INDIA UNITES SOMEHOW. THIS WORLD WILL NEVER LEAVE A STATE OF WAR. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:45 No.15495655 Also, it should be noted that Roman politics can be pretty vicious. 1000 years is easily enough time to have a civil war. O Cerebrate Anon 07/06/11(Wed)18:58 No.15495805 Any decent inspection of this will have the Romans popping up in the middle of the Mayan Empire, and homogenizing with them to become a massive continent-spanning superpower. They will worship a mix of the Roman gods and the Mayan gods, and the interactions thereof should make it obvious that they are completely juxtaposed, and yet everybody should still believe them. The disease thing will be a problem, but the Romans were very good at getting women and children from their conquered lands. I daresay the human sacrifice will be limited to men above the age that they could have been converted to RoMayans. The thing to ask about it whether they will have developed firearms. The Romans certainly had the knack for innovation that could have led to them, but would they have bothered, when all the locals could be conquered with the equipment the Legionnaires already had? Be sure to mix names, and have a new Praetorian Guard that protects the High Priests. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)19:44 No.15496237 >>15496000 If they're finding most of their women among native tribes - and in other words, having native women raising their children - then they will (whether willingly or not) end up with culture that's mostly based on the native americans. Maybe not immediately, but within a few generations. Government, laws, and whatnot will be Roman simply because those are much slower to change, but religion, folklore, and so on will be mostly native. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)19:52 No.15496296 >>15491610 It's something worth noting that the concept of infinity is something that really frightened and confused the ancient Greeks and Romans. This ought to be taken into account when they are thrust into an environment that that is defined by how vast it is. FUCKHUGE mountains to the east that are followed by FUCKHUGE plains of eternity and FUCKHUGE deserts of infinity to the south. This is going to be something that they will have difficulty coping with culturally. It's also worth noting that the Romans put much more emphasis on oratory, philosophy, and the arts then they did on technlogical innovation. That was more of a greek thing. That was not to say that iinnovation did not take place, it certainly did as the Romans were a very, very pragmatic and practical bunch, but it is something that will very much affect this new empire, as they are deprived of Greece. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)20:36 No.15496685 >>15496510 The followers of the Jupiter Eagle, the traditionalists, still keep slaves, but the most populous areas of the empire have converted to the worship of the Great Spirit/White Buffalo - which would function as a Christianity analog that reintroduces Hellenic and Stoic concepts of mercy and temperance that a Roman legion would have been quick to forget. So the modernizers from the big Midwest metropolitan areas, only incorporated a few hundred years ago (history being unfuc while the colony of traditionalists who sailed from St.Louisium to New Orleanium (or marched there across Texas) and from there into the South would be planters exercising brutal latifundium. for a while East of the allows the Sioux to develop or something like that), would be worshipers who consider slavery to be decadent and cruel, Anyway, in the initial scenario - Roman disease wipes out most central californian Indians. The survivors escape as refugees, spreading the disease in less extravagant amounts to the Pacific Northwest fisher tribes and the Southwest river-huddling desert farmers. The Romans incorporate a few slaves into their population, ones that don't die or escape as refugees - and they help the Romans with languages and developing disease tolerance (a handful of slaves enough to spread mostly non-fatal outbreaks of local diseases). Now, would the Romans start farming or is more in their character to march/roadbuild/fortbuild as they are prone to do up into the Northwest to get fish or down into the deserts to conquer proto-pueblo and relatively prosperous river-based farmers growing corn and whatnot? Corn would be a big deal. O Cerebrate Anon 07/06/11(Wed)21:53 No.15497382 >>15497305 Always with the animals. Kokopelli, the trickster who brings rain, crops, babies, and sometimes has little fun with the ladies using his detachable penis! Nanook, Master of Bears! Glooscap, who bound up the great eagle whose flapping wings created unbearable storms! Not to mention the mesoamerican gods. It's much more likely that the Romans would blend the animal deities into nymphs or transformed gods, whereas many of the actual anthropomorphized deities would actually be assimilated. O Anonymous 07/07/11(Thu)12:32 No.15503507 >>15501122 >>15500430 So with double the legion in camp followers, 7 legions, each of 6000 men at fresh fighting strength (ie: no casualties since leaving rome)... 42000 Legionnaires 84000 Camp followers. 126000 Romans suddenly appearing on the west cost of the US, with 1/3 of them trained to fight. Yeah, the natives are f-----.

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File : 1285640447.jpg-(529 KB, 1024x762, 4654992908_4d5f391841_b.jpg) O LegoSpace The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)22:20 No.12248169 FTL drive was always problematic, until Brik Theory was solidified. By envisioning the very fabric of reality as a series of interconnected bricks, which could be separated and immediately plugged back together, scientists were able to create a jump drive that worked by threading ships briefly through a nearby, mostly-empty dimension. Efficient. Quick. Safe, even within close proximity to planets. Surprisingly easy to maintain. The brik drive ushered in a new era of space exploration, and a joint project between several countries - the Futron Project. The moon bases were set up within months, complete with a top-of-the-line monorail connecting them, and the Mars base was fast-tracked. Then came Blacktron Enterprises. The company stole the secrets of the brik drive in pieces - bits from NASA, from Roscosmos, and - mostly - from the Chinese, who had already managed to piece together more than half the drive through their own security networks. Setting their sights on more distant goals, they started flooding nearby solar systems, setting claim to as many Class M planets as they could. Vessels from the Futron Project that entered Blacktron space were invariably raided for supplies, and usually taken captive, under the pretense that the Futron ships were "illegal invaders". When action was set to be taken against Blacktron, they responded by abandoning their corporate HQ on Earth, and relocating to Tau Centauri. This action prompted the creation of the Universal Code of Law, and the Space Police. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)22:30 No.12248270 File1285641039.jpg-(352 KB, 1024x824, 4568072707_b695a464e4_b.jpg) >>12248169 The UCL was essentially maritime law applied to space travel, and was surprisingly straightforward for a committee-created code. As a result, the Space Police had a fairly easy time of their original duties - escorting Futron Project ships, protecting them from Blacktron raiders, and investigating criminal offenses that occurred on vessels - offenses that were, thankfully, rare in those days. After the raids became more blatant, and Blacktron vessels began raiding FP outposts directly, the Corporate Accord was passed, allowing the FP to treat Blacktron as a national body instead of merely a corporation. This allowed them to begin taking out Blacktron bases, declaring war on them officially. It also cleared the way for more corporations to legitimately take to the stars, and to found their own colonies, assured that in doing so they would be recognized by the vague terms of the Corporate Accord as national bodies themselves. The first was the Japanese MTron corporation, previously a leading company in robotics, who had fallen into financial problems in recent years. Funded by an influx of would-be colonists, they set themselves up as the first formally-recognized commercial cargo vessels to use the brik drive, as well as the first publicly-accessible interstellar flights. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)22:45 No.12248422 File1285641908.jpg-(170 KB, 1024x721, 4755641811_9195c6b34d_b.jpg) >>12248270 At first, the MTron vessels were merely used as an auxiliary for Futron Project resources, as well as for tourist trade on their own colonies; they refused to service Blacktron colonies. The extra cargo capabilities were welcomed during what was technically wartime, and helped the resource-stretched Space Police to slowly overwhelm Blacktron forces. It wasn't until the next corporation stretched its wings outward that the Blacktron threat was nullified, however. The Tienshan Mining Group had colonized the recently-discovered M-Class planet Krysto, and was busily working at mining the planet - not only for the amazingly versatile substance Orangium, an isotope that was quickly built into their own tools and adopted by large slices of the galaxy as a power source, but also for water. Krysto was a world with two frigid, but inhabitable, poles, a tiny temperate zone, and a vast swath of uninhabitable volcanic belts about its equator. The result was a planet buffeted by constant, violent snowfall. This was also Blacktron's last temptation. Attempting to secure the Orangium mines as a way to boost their steadily-crumbling production, the Blaktron forces did not realize that A) they had committed far too much of their resources to the invasion, B) their vessels, which were specialized for space travel, would have issues icing up in the moisture-laden atmosphere, and C) the Space Police had already gotten word of their plans. The defeat was crushing; within the year, only a few distant outposts were still controlled by Blacktron forces, all of which were cut off from each other, and considered widely to be little more than bandits. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)23:03 No.12248631 File1285642983.jpg-(222 KB, 800x569, display.cgi (1).jpg) >>12248422 After this, there was a massive influx of new groups seeking their fortune in the stars. The UK-based Unitron and Franco-Italian Exploriens began setting down roots, as did the Canadian-based Spyrius Corporation - which unabashedly admitted to stealing the brik drive, and most of their technology, instead of developing it themselves, pointing to the legacy of Apple and Microsoft. It was at this time that the aliens made themselves known. The first two examples of first contact were nearly concurrent. First, a ship emerging from brikspace was followed - and destroyed - by a sleek vessel with a half-disk shaped front end. A message transmitted from the hostile ship took nearly a year to decode, but stated in essence that further incursions into their space - the dimension that brik drive accessed - would not be tolerated. The Insectoids proved to be much more amicable to human presence. The initial contact, made by the Exploriens, proved that at least one race out there in the galaxy was intelligent and - more importantly - didn't want to kill us. A nonagression pact was quickly hammered out, languages shared, and in the wake of the struggle against the UFOS from Brikspace, the queen of the Insectoid people gifted the collective factions of humanity with information on a propulsion system that would allow us to pass through Brikspace without being detected by "The Aggressors". It worked - seemingly. The incursions from the transdimensional entities became far more sporadic, and easier to deal with. However, the new drive slowed travel considerably; its maximum speed was less than half that of the previous brik drive. And, in a twist that conspiracy theorists claim is far worse than the previous invasions, the queen now claimed that mankind owed them a favor - one she would collect on if she ever needed it. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)23:12 No.12248727 >>12248631 From that point on, travel further from Earth resulted in contact with countless alien species. Mankind has proliferated among the stars, always going outwards, always seeking the next frontier. The Space Police are still around, although their aim has become more domestic, as the colony worlds have become less like scientific outposts and more like any other city on any other planet. Each of the other factions mentioned has remained, in some form... The Futron Project is still responsible for most near-Earth settlements, including the Mars base. They were the ones responsible for discovering the long-dormant Martian civilizations that rested beneath the dusty soil, and for sharing the brik drive with our neighbors - although the Martians have declined to use it so far, more than content with their self-sufficient communities. Futron Project vessels tend to be mostly scientific affairs, with top-of-the-line sensor arrays and onboard labs, although lightly armed. Their only agendas are exploration, and furthering diplomacy with extraterrestrial entities. However, the Futron Project has been slammed as being a "humans only" club, and even their spinoff peacekeeping force, the Space Police, has been criticized for anti-alien prejudices. The FP is on excellent terms with Unitron. They deal extensively with MTron, but consider their commercial leanings to be a detriment to their focus. They do not trust Spyrius, and avoid them whenever possible. Blacktron forces are under a shoot-on-sight order. Exploriens is viewed as a rival more than an ally, mostly because of their close connection to the barely-trusted Insectoids. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)23:22 No.12248845 >>12248727 Unitron is considered by many to be the fringe-world equivalent of the Futron Project, and thať's not too far off. Their cities tend to be a bit more stark and utilitarian than the Futron equivalents, with security cameras monitoring every square inch of public space. They tend to be a better-armed people than the Futron Project, and have heavily armored their vessels, so that most light assaults are futile; this has significantly lessened their reliance on the Space Police, to the point where their own colonial security forces can handle most problems that arise. Likewise, their manufacturing and mining divisions - which are widespread and highly profitable - are run with a keen eye to oversight and zero tolerance for corruption or laziness. They are far more suspicious of extraterrestrials, as the first contact with "The Aggressors" resulted in the destruction of one of their colony vessels; any nonhuman living in a Unitron colony is essentially treated as a second-class citizen. Unitron is on excellent terms with the FP, although they are wary of what they consider to be pro-alien sentiments running through their ranks. They are outrightly hostile towards the "Xeno-loving freaks" of Exploriens. Spyrius gets a bit more respect in their eyes, as at least those blokes are trying to earn a living, and doing it without shooting at people (if they can help it). MTron, likewise, is viewed with admiration and respect, though the tourism angle pushed by MTron colonies raises a few eyebrows among their ranks. Blacktron are nothing but common criminals and are to be treated as such, though they're surely no threat anymore, and the Insectoids... creepy little buggers... well, let's just say that if anything is to happen to one of their vessels in Unitron space, they wouldn't complain. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)23:33 No.12248953 >>12248845 Exploriens has filled large sections of the fringe, their name saying it all; the corporation is almost insatiably curious and xenophilic. They have a limited R&D department, mostly dedicated to adaptation and improvement of alien technology they discover and/or trade for, which has made their vessels some of the most distinctive, and - to outsiders - difficult to operate in known space. An Exploriens ship may have an Insectoid Orangium power cell, Squidfolk inertial dampeners, and a Silicin-designed computer bank. Their colonies are set up as immense trading posts, with nominal tariffs making another decent chunk of their profit margin. The Exploriens are on good terms with the FP, although they wish they'd just stop whining about the Insectoids and see that people are people, even if they're chitinous and cybernetic. They are on outstanding terms with the Insectoids, having nearly won over the inwardly-driven, isolationist people. They are on poor footing with Unitron, and are not seeking to improve things with the "backwards, provincial bigots". MTron is just another company to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and while they are not hostile towards them, they have to wonder about a company that treats this new frontier in such a menial way. They are openly hostile towards Spyrius, as trading and refining alien tech that they've traded for legitimately is a main source of income for them, and they're not fond of those that would steal it. Oddly, they have little problem with the straggler Blacktron colonies - as long as they stay in their own corner of the galaxy. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)23:43 No.12249031 >>12248953 MTron is all about two things: Service, and style! They see no reason why the wonders of space shouldn't be available to the public at large, and likewise don't see why it shouldn't be as comfortable as possible - as long as they're willing to pay for it. To that end, MTron colonies are heavily urbanized, high-tech wonderlands that are aimed at tourists as much as colonists. MTron vessels have vast cargo holds, reflecting well their status as a middleman, dealing with anyone with a pocketbook to be opened. They also tend to be sluggish and oversized... while the colonies are practically pieces of art, the vessels MTron uses are almost universally worn, fidgety, and substandard in capability. They're reliable - almost supernaturally so, for things held together by spit and duct tape, and you'd never know they were in such shape if you were to ride on one as a passenger - but most other vessels can fly rings around an MTron ship. MTron trades openly with the Exploriens, the Futron Project, and Unitron, figuring that their credits spend as well as anyone's - and besides, all that political crap they're having problems with will wash out eventually. They consider Spyrius to be a competing company, but will ally with them readily if the proper contracts are in place. They will even service Blacktron colonies, as long as they've got some backup and a loaded ion cannon. The Insectoids, however, don't seem to be affected by the power of positive marketing, and want nothing to do with MTron... possibly owing to a diplomatic error in their early negotiations. O The Goddamn Duck 09/27/10(Mon)23:55 No.12249139 >>12249031 Spyrius. The universe's greatest hackers, programmers, and data-traders. If it's out there, they want to know about it, and to hell with restrictions. They consider themselves to be the last true gentleman pirates in an age where DRM is almost mandatory, where someone'll shoot you for just memorizing a blueprint. They're not bandits - they're bon vivants, rebels making a statement, and making a profit at the same time! Their colonies tend to be arcologies, tight tunnels of winding passages with visible wiring and access ports for easy maintenance. Not exactly welcoming, but it's quite easy to live there - as long as you know a little something about basic electronics and engineering. Most of their colonies serve as listening posts. Their ships are decently armed, lightly armored, and VERY maneuverable. The saucer-shaped vessels have been upgraded steadily since they cracked Aggressor ships, making them some of the quickest, most annoying ships out there. Don't expect anything larger than a light freighter, though. few scans of Spyrius is on questionable terms with the FP. They can get along beautifully, as long as Spyrius doesn't let on just how much they know about their hidden files. They deal openly with Unitron, and like their funds just fine - if only they didn't have their heads up their rear ends as far as aliens go. There's a fine line between healthy paranoia and idiocy. They aren't on good terms with the Exploriens, but are fascinated by their discoveries. Blacktron is nothing more than a bunch of idiot bullies, the sort of people that beat them up in school - the sort of people they take no small delight in shooting down. MTron is just too glossy on the surface, with nothing worthwhile beneath - they can deal with them, but only if there's something in it for them. And the Insectoids? They don't know what to make of them, but they have such wonderful toys! O The Goddamn Duck 09/28/10(Tue)00:04 No.12249202 >>12249139 The Insectoids are by far the largest alien empire that the factions of man has discovered. Encompassing no less than 300 hive planets, they are a people that are content. They have ceased explorations, conquests, and all external activity, focusing inward, on improving their own lives. Supported by genetic therapy and cybernetics, the average Insectoid lives to be over 300 years old, and may hit 400 if she's lucky. The only thing that has pulled the quasi-bugfolk out of their introverted state has been humans - such a varied, contradictory bunch! The Insectoids are fascinated by them, for a variety of reasons, including the fact that their history and philosophies are so closely mirrored. The Insectoids are on excellent terms with the Exploriens, whose curiosity is infectious to them, and nostalgic of their own first steps into space. They admire the productive drive of Unitron - if only they weren't so shortsighted. The FP are much like themselves in agenda and drive, and easy to negot with. MTron are children playing with toys they do not understand, and do nothing to contribute to the greater good. The fools of Spyrius are not much better - but at least they have a philosophy to guide them, even if it is a laughably simplistic one. And Blacktron is to be pitied, a broken people, waiting for death to finally take their society. O The Goddamn Duck 09/28/10(Tue)00:16 No.12249309 >>12249202 In their cold, cold bases, the people of Blacktron see themselves as a proud group of warriors. The first to break from Earth's tightly-controlled regiments. The first to seek their fortune in space, free of the countries that would hold them back. The first to defy Terran rule! They bite their tongues back at the thought at being the first to fail - they are still alive, after all, and still waiting for their time to rise. Blacktron colonies are military camps, where harsh conditions and cloning spit out some of the most conditioned, perfectly-trained soldiers of all time. However, they are poorly equipped - while their ships are certainly nothing to laugh at, having picked up bits and pieces of key technology in their raids over the years, their designs keenly focused on power and speed, they are still behind the times, and short on numbers compared to their foes. Blacktron considers FP to be the great enemy, to be destroyed at any cost. Unitron are a militant branch of the FP, and are to fall in short order after their primary foe is gone. The Exploriens are dreamers who are trying to find their own way in the galaxy, even if that way is naive and ignoble, and are to be left alone. Spyrius has such potential - if only they would stop snatching at the purse-strings of the foes and strike at their faces! MTron is but a tool, point, and will join Blacktron when the time comes, or they are an obstacle, to be blocked off from their enemies long enough to take them out. Time will tell which it is. neutral party to purchase the tools needed for their eventual rise to power. And the Insectoids are an unknown quantity. Either they will be a turning O The Goddamn Duck 09/28/10(Tue)01:17 No.12249853 >>12249765 The so-called "Robo Force" has set up shop on Titan, and is quite content to stay there. A group of engineers and obsessive hobbyists, the RF's goal is nothing less than advancing robotic technology until they can create a full-scale, fully functional Gundam (or Megazord, or what-have-you. Different geeks, different goal, same broad stroke). They have had some luck with smaller-scale robots - about the size of a tank - but they still lack the resources to manage anything larger with any success. Most of their creations are sold off to be used for mercenary work or for entertainment - at least one of their robots was a centerpiece in a major Bollywood sci-fi holo released last year. While not formally allied or shunned by any group, rumors have begun to circulate that the RF was actually commissioned by Blacktron to build a new line of crawlers for them. They deny such claims vigorously... but then, surveillance shots of their newest work have raised a few eyebrows. O The Goddamn Duck 09/28/10(Tue)14:59 No.12254840 File1285700351.jpg-(75 KB, 777x635, 4460085527_6cfe221f5c_o.jpg) COMMON TECHNOLOGY -Brik Drive- All but ubiquitous, the brik drive works on Quantum Brik Tunnel technology; in an instant, the drive "takes apart" the building blocks of reality, shifts the ship sideways through said hole, and repairs the hole. Thanks to the Insectoids, the new drives allow ships moving through the "other space" without attracting the attention of the native species, via keeping them partially in phase with their home dimension. A brik drive jump can allow a ship to travel from Earth to Pluto in less than an hour. The drives typically use refined Orangium discs as a power source, but other energy supplies do exist. -lon Drive- The chosen sub-light drive of most of the galaxy, ion drive is cheap, reliable, and incredibly compact. An ion drive propulsion unit the size of a frisbee is sufficient to move a ship the size of a VW Bug. Most ships, however, use multiple ion pads for maneuverability's sake, or - in the case of fighters - potent ion turbines, which also provide a secondary power source for shielding units and weaponry. -MagDrive- MTron ships use their own proprietary sublight drives. Close examination has shown that they use potent magnetic fields, but how that works in the void of space has never been determined exactly. The drives are closely guarded knowledge, and - while inferior in most regards - are far superior as far as energy consumption, taking next to no energy to use. For now, this presumably magnetic drive system appears almost... miraculous. O The Goddamn Duck 09/28/10(Tue)15:12 No.12254926 >>12254840 -Weaponry- If one was to catalogue every piece of weaponry found on every ship in the known galaxy, the list would be several hundred pages long. There are countless known starship weapon systems, most of them existing in multiple distinct subtypes. The most commonly used weapons include railguns, ion cannons, masers, torpedoes, and a few solid-shell weapons. -Shields- Shielding technology remains fairly consistent through the various factions. Quantum force fields are either projected in a bubble from the ship via external emitters, or on the surface of the ship's armor through an internal emitter web. The former is prized because it gives a bit of leeway for the ship to escape damage if a sufficiently large explosion were to damage the shields, and the latter because in saving energy on projecting the shield outward, it is possible to strengthen the shield greatly.

> O Anonymous 12/02/15(Wed)08:56:11 No.43945056 >>43949991 >>43944899 (OP) I had a squad of Imperial Guard, lead by a Commissar, versus Necrons. After most of my squad was murdered by Gauss fire from the Immortals, the squad rolled a morale check and failed. Now, there were only two units left. The Commissar, and a quardsman. The Commissar's special rule kicked in, and he shot the Guardsman in the face..Then charged the Necron lines alone. To his credit, he took out two Immortals with his power sword before he went down. 7 Anonymous 12/02/15(Wed)16:13:14 No.43949991 ► >>43958477 File: 1418489190054.jpg (103 KB, 524x492) exhentai >>43945056 >squad broken due to too many casualties >shoots last surviving member of the squad >squad morale restored O Anonymous 12/02/15(Wed)23:38:40 No.43958477 ► >>43959844 >>43949991 ># of Guardsmen with poor morale: 0

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File : 1309963244.jpg-(113 KB, 699x312, Romans_Americans.jpg) O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:40 No.15491610 Ok /tg/, my next campaign involves a bunch of Romans (led by a much less killed by Parthians Crassus) who ended up landing in what is now Los Angeles, from around the year 50 BC, thanks to Chinese magic warping their inconvenient expedition 'somewhere out of the way.' The better part of two thousand years later, explorers from Europe bumble into the Americas while looking for tea, and find an eerily familiar "Atlantean Empire" just constructing ships of their own to figure out what is on the other side of that very same ocean. Those European explorers are my players. So /tg/, I need ideas for how Romans+Native Americans would look culturally, militarily and as an Empire. This is of course assuming that even with their initial advantage and powerful culture, the Romans would've had to absorb many times their number worth of Americans to survive in their new home, and thus, would probably have adopted a lot of distinctly I---- traits alongside their own. Also, is this a cool idea, y/n? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:46 No.15491637 Hmm. I'm tempted to say that, with the Native American stance on landownership (you don't, and how could you?), land might be considered a matter of the res publica rather than a private person's. (This assumes the Romans accept the idea of shared landownership and integrate that with the idea of the public matter, rather than go LOL NO and hand out I---- lands for their veterans.) >Antipater temonas How Roman of you, captcha. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:47 No.15491649 >>15491637 I've serious doubts that they would harmonize their ideals with the Injuns. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:50 No.15491664 File1309963816.jpg-(192 KB, 1024x819, Roman Sophitia.jpg) I can't see the Romans respecting a people who haven't figured out how to fight real wars yet. West coast native americans were very much this. They were less developed than the aborigines for God's sake, at least the Australian natives had figured out spears. Then again, it probably won't matter, because of how many goddamn women they're going to need to buy or steal. I don't know how many chicks these guys thought to bring along, but unless they invented co-ed legions while I wasn't looking, they're going to have to pull the whole Sabine Women thing every other day for the first few decades if they want a stable population base. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:51 No.15491676 >>15491637 Two generations after the Romans build their first city, every kid from all the tribes in the area will either have citizenship or be waiting for one. Wisdom of the land and harmony with the spirits is fine only as long as you don't have an alternative. Romans got so big because most of the conquered populations wanted to be Romans, too. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)10:58 No.15491753 >>15491649 >l've serious doubts that they would harmonize their ideals with the Injuns. This. We're talking about a Roman Legion in a climate reminiscent of their home (i.e. not too hot, not too cold). They certainly wouldn't be starving or dying. They would impose their upon the Natives. End off. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:01 No.15491792 Don't forget the effect of introducing European disease into the Americas fifteen hundred years early. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:03 No.15491811 >>15491758 I think it would end up like this: Alright you savages, listen up. We're right, you're wrong. You believe what we believe now. That thing you always believe in? Turns out it was secretly this thing we believe in. And a bunch of Indian slowly trying to merge their ancestors stuff with the shiny people's beliefs. So what we end up with is a clusterfuck of Native American ideas with a Roman veneer. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:08 No.15491842 File1309964901.jpg-(21 KB, 143x231, Zeus_Troll.jpg) >>15491811 >mfw Coyote was just Zeus coming down in animal form to r--- delicious squaw O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:10 No.15491850 >>15491610 >constructing ships of their own to figure out what is on the other side of that very same ocean. I don't need to tell you how f------ bad this is for Europe, do l? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:13 No.15491868 /tg/ dismisses the native Americans too easily. When they weren't fighting people with guns, they did pretty damn well. They regularly slapped the Viking's s--- if you remember. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:18 No. 15491900 >>15491868 That's true. But those were East-Coast indians, fighting against what amounted to the crews of boats. This is a fully formed land army that somehow ended up in West-Coast America. The western injuns did not have a particularly well honed martial tradition. Didn't even have the concept of dedicated melee weapons down, as far as I know. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:39 No.15491983 >>15491929 There is some hope. Southern California is so ridiculously fertile that a scottsman could piss on it and grow hops, and the Pacific is MADE out of fish. If the Romans were to spread out along the coast and rely heavily on fishing for a few years, they might be able to get something resembling agriculture going with corn. Other problems with less in the way of answers are: -Women -Domestic animals (would they be able to breed more horses with their limited stock?) -Metal (with zero in the way of native exploitation, how the hell would the Romans find and harvest more metal for tools and weapons? ) -Alcohol (The Romans relied so much on f------ vinegar for everything that they'd probably kill themselves if they realized they were going to run out.) O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)11:58 No.15492119 >>15491983 It seems to me that the shock of the transition would either cause the Romans to march inland/along the coast and die, or spread out relatively widely, developing agricultural and fishing systems quickly (after all, they would have had plenty of former farmers). There would be a LOT of breeding with native women, but Roman culture would probably be pretty much upheld, and you'd end up with a very self-reliant, organized nation with one hell of a founding story. Also, with no Christanity and no dark ages, you'd probably have a very different idea of science and philosophy. I'd guess that very logical, Grecian philosophy mixed with Roman ideals of self-reliance and the State would be the main influence on their culture, and rather than the scientific method they would be focused around heavy engineering based on theoretical innovations, rather than the hypothesis, trial, implementation method. Chances are that means bigger buildings, and a focus on practicality. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:26 No.15492311 >>15492201 The legions carried everything with them. They were basically living on the stone age wherever they went, carrying everything they needed with them. They even had their own smiths. Raw materials will be a problem, but in no way would the legions be in "deep s---". We're talking about a fully self-sufficient force capable of fending for themselves. Granted, there will likely be bitching when it comes time to reforge some of those weapons into farmtools and it will be a pretty "You want to WHAT?" when someone mentions that we're better off with rudimentary spears, resource-wise, than full swords; but no, that's not "Deep s---". O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:31 No.15492353 >>15492311 Didn't they also have the usual train of prostitutes, traders etc.? Have a large enough base of women, and you might not even need the natives (who'd probably be dying off from European diseases anyway). Hell. plonk an apothecary or two and you've got the basis for a city right there. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:32 No.15492365 A fascinating idea. I think the legion would be just fine. After a century or two of establishing an economic and cultural base, they would begin a conquest of the coasts or california and uniting all the various tribes. You know, kind of like EXACTLY how Rome itself came to be. It would basically be the Aeneid all over again. I also like the idea of native auxiliaries that were mentioned by another anon earlier. Most of the tribesmen would be trained/cultured to fight in the roman style, but Rome as also famous for taking the concepts and tactics of their enemies into their own ways of fighting, and then improving upon them. I'm now imagining lorica wearing, face-painted, tomahawk wielding skirmishers that shout war cries as they charge into battle for scalp trophies to present to Caesar, the son of the Jupiter Eagle. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:33 No.15492371 >>15492311 That's pretty deep s---. Anywhere else, at any point in history, pretty much no matter who you took as your control group, that would be the apocalypse. Romans are just abnormally buoyant in s---. Romans live in the s--- pool. Romans can tread s--- indefinitely. So they'll live. But this is a phenomenally bad situation, even for them. Evidently they survive and prosper, since we can already see into the future a thousand years and they now run the entire continent, but nobody's going to be looking back at this time as a happy one. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:37 No.15492407 The Natives shouldn't be underestimated but we're talking about Romans fighting in a land with a lot of open plains in a land where NOBODY has horses. That in mind, will the Romans have enough horses with them to maintain a breeding stock? What the f--- are they going to do for communication and supply without all those horses? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:43 No.15492451 >>15492407 I would assume that as soon as the romans figured out they weren't in Roman Kansas any more, they would immediately build a frontier fort and settle into one spot. The war horses would be preserved, because people aren't stupid about wasting extremely valuable war horses. So basically, they would probably cut their active cavalry cohort in half, keeping one half combat ready and the other half for breeding. Wait. F---. Weren't warhorses primarily stallions? I don't know if they would even have female horses for breeding, which f------ sucks for EVERYONE since horses are an integral part of society at that time period. Horses were used for EVERYTHING O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)12:46 No.15492476 >>15492407 I'd say it would depend on how much of their force was auxiliary cavalry. Conveniently, we know that the man in charge of this expedition was f------ Crassus, who had a force with enormous cavalry support for a Roman army of his day, because he knew he was going to be fighting Parthians. However he ended up in China and then America, that means he's got a good, diverse stock of horse, with more probably drawn from Bactria and the verious Hellanistic and Persian demikingdoms in that region. So assuming total manpower including support personnel, slaves and w----- in the baggage train totals out to about 50,000, horsepower and mules should probably number in the region of 20,000. Mules, of course, are sterile, so when they're done they're done, but there also might be civilian donkeys to breed (they did have to pass through Asia Minor...) chickens were usually kept with the army for the officers, cows are a longshot but conceivable, as milk was believed helpful for the wounded, and pigs are a moot point since the west coast is f------ made of boars. They'll probably manage. The biggest threat to Roman survival right now is the potential of disease. The Black Death hasn't happened yet, nor has Smallpox, which were the two major killers of the natives. Obviously tedious s--- like the flu and the measles will probably kill umpteen million of them, but what if something hits them back? The Romans did not have as sound of a grasp of medicine or disease as the historic European colonists did, after all. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:03 No.15492669 >>15492371 Oh, don't get me wrong (I'm the one you responded to). I didn't mean to say that they weren't in s---. Just not DEEP s---. I mean, they'll have a hard time, but there's no way in hell that the first two generations will have much of a problem, due to the know-how and resources they have with them (after all, with a smith, the armors and weapon, these could last for years of continuous use or be reforged) And after those two-or-so (I'm pulling "two generations" out my ass here; it just seems like a reasonable number in my head) generations, they should have everything necessary up and running. I mean, not only would they have tents, ditches and fortifications up and running the first night, but within a week you'd have a full fort. Fun fact: EVERY time the Roman Legions made camp, they made fortifications. Every single night. In times of great war or when many legions marched together, entire regions were deforested, just because they needed fortifications for nightfall. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:05 No.15492690 >European explorers arrive >"Ave, fishermen. We are not familiar with your tribe, but we greet you." >"We're not fishermen, we're... Are you speaking Latin?" >"...Yes. Why?" >"Nevermind. We're from Spain." >"...I do not know of this Spain." >"Look, nevermind, we just got here from across the sea, we're looking for India. Is this India?" >"I have never heard of, nor seen an India. Perhaps it is one of the local tribes?" >"No, nevermind. You are very strange, you speak a very old language, and that armor, it reminds me of something. I say, may I ask you something?" >"What is it, friend?" >"Where does that road you're paving lead?" >"Where do all roads lead?" O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:07 No.15492715 GUYS we should think about what the Romans would make of the event. When OP's players come in 2 thousand years later, OP better have an f------ awesome myth of the founding of the Atlantean Empire. Maybe some sort of fusion between Roman and Native American mythology? I don't know a thing about early Native American mythology. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:13 No.15492777 >>15492715 >l don't know a thing about early Native American mythology. That's because there weren't really any (at least not when we showed up) a uniform myth. It's a mish-mash of animism and shamanism. All in all, it's pretty easy to reconcile with the Greco-Roman faith, actually, especially if you consider that the Roman faith was pretty monolithic in it's dieties, while the indians were a diverse number of minor myths about a number of animal dieties or creationary spirits. So take the regular polytheistic faith of the Romans (Or any old European faith, really) and then allow for various minor spirits. Obviously, the great spirits will be merged with pre-existing Gods. Jupiter may aquire eagle-like characteristics, for example. But overall, split the faith in two. One with dominant, monolithic gods, subject to the traditional hierarchy. And another part, venerating the spirits of any one animal, or the spirits of a forest. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:17 No.15492814 >>15492777 >Roman faith >monolithic Only if you use 'monolithic' to mean "Hey, there's this god that people over there pray to. They're now part of the Empire... and, hey, look! That god is really a facet of INSERTGODOFCHOICEHERE." O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:07 No.15492719 File1309972054.jpg-(15 KB, 220x220, 220px-Roman_Cavalry_2[1].jpg) >>15492407 >That in mind, will the Romans have enough horses with them to maintain a breeding stock? Are we talking a full legion here? If so, yes. There may be some inbreeding for a few generations, but nothing major enough to substantially degenerate the stock. I mean, yeah, sure, they would possibly degenerate a bit, but not to the point of not being useful for breeding anymore. Yeah that's right kids; The romans had horses and the romans had cavalry, even though you never get to see them in all the fancy movies. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)13:55 No.15493096 File1309974944.jpg-(102 KB, 576x542, road[1].jpg) >>15492895 >Would legions have people with them who would understand how a lot of Roman technology worked? The Legion would have well-educated nobles in the top tiers, as well a an assorted number of learned men, and assistants. Each squad (I forget their name) had at least one man that could read/write. On top of all that, the Legion would certainly have at least a group of military engineers capable of building or organizing the construction of everything from battlements to aqueducts. Add to that apprentices of those military engineers. Fun roman fact: Did you know that the Roman Legions were the ones to build most of the roads in the Roman State? As they marched from one place to another, they also put up new roads. This was such a bitch a number of small rebellions happened over it, but they did it, and roads were the foundation of both troop movements and commerce. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)14:01 No.15493134 Also, don't forget that the Roman economy depended upon slaves. In the end, the legionnaires are not farmers. In my mind, they would likely start enslaving surrounding tribes fairly quickly. Both for breeding and work. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:18 No.15493700 I foresee a lot of the local natives simply moving away from the Romans. There were few to no major agricultural settlements anywhere on the continent at the time. In fact, the archaeological record is pretty spotty at about 50AD in North America. Let's assume the Romans catch, r---/enslave, and generally colonize California and the surrounding regions for a good few hundred years and don't manage to make contact with Teotihuacan before its collapse around 600AD. The Maya flourished in the jungles of modern Guatemala and Chiapas, Mexico until 950 AD (collapse of their empire, not that they disappeared). That's a long time for a highly ambitious empire like the Americo-Romans to make contact with. The people that would become the Aztecs migrated south from Utah in the 1300s, following a dwarf (you heard me, a dwarf, like the Gimli kind) named Huitzilopotchli to Mexico (Our stout friend would turn into a rock on the way and have to be carried). Would the Americo-Romans interrupt that migration? What then? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:26 No.15493753 >>15493728 though they'd probably contact the Aztecs prior to the height of their civilization which might spur on advances in Aztec culture. In the event the Romans don't take over the Aztecs for whatever reason, they won't be pushovers by the time the Spanish arrive O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:26 No.15493756 File1309980381.jpg-(67 KB, 1004x358, take all my money.jpg) STAKETHIS MYLOVE MY ANGER AND ALL OF MY MONEY! Oh, god, Aztec culture and Roman style armors blended... O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)15:53 No.15493960 >>15493876 The general tack of colonization, though, will be interesting, as it will originate from the west. I'm seeing an expedition across the peninsula somewhere around Oaxaca / Vera Cruz, since the other options are OVER A FUCKHUGE MOUNTAIN, ACROSS A FUCKHUGE DESERT, or THROUGH THE FUCKHUGE JUNGLE. (Which is going to be the impression the Roman transplants take away from their new surrounds - everything is FUCKHUGE.) If they continue tracking the coast, they'll come up to Fuckhuge Swamp and the estuary of the Fuckhuge River. They go far enough upriver, they'll come to the confluences of the Mississippi and the Ohio, and then the Mississippi and the Missouri. They'll look east and see forested hills and fertile floodplains. They'll look west and see the FUCKHUGE PLAINS. Jackpot. This is why I see the eventual capital of Atlantis sitting somewhere between St. Louis and Cairo, IL. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:05 No.15494070 >>15493985 Now we're getting into cultural questions. How strongly do they associate with The Event that dumped them in Cali? Do their cultural mores outweigh sensible logistics? Does the first settlement become more than just another in a long series of outposts, and does culture and governance eventually flow from there? In that case, I see them having administrative capitals elsewhere but the spiritual (and core governmental capital) would remain in California. But Romans are noted pragmatists. Running the colonization of an entire continent from the tiny sliver of land between the FUCKHUGE Mountains and the FUCKHUGE Ocean, bordered to the south by the FUCKHUGE Desert? Bad logistics. It might even doom them to being a regional player. (Which, we know they're not. They won. We're figuring out the how.) O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:05 No.15494072 >>15494003 And when some well to do tinkerer gets his hands on some fine spun decorative copper, some lemon juice or vinegar, some clay pots, and some iron (smelted into small bars and ingots), with a tiny bit of a mixup in storage? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:16 No.15494146 >>15494003 I can see the various client states and regions pledging various degrees of allegiance to Atlantis, possibly engaging in some spirited border skirmishes and maybe an outright smash and grab or two. I think the biggest thing that would keep the Atlantean Empire intact as a continental body would be good ol' Roman pragmatism. You pay lip service to Atlantis, submit your taxes (nearly) as ordered and (relatively) on time, and you supply legions as requested. You do this, and you're mostly left alone to do as you see fit. You fail to do this or refuse, and the REST of the legions are going to come methodically destroy and enslave you, and put someone better-behaved in your place. It would only be if the totality of the Empire fell apart, and NOBODY was supplying legions to enforce Atlantis' will, that would result in mass balkanization. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)16:58 No.15494557 >>15494072 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery And telegraph lines. How much easier would running an empire be with some of those, eh? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:22 No.15494807 What did we say, anyway? Since I'm not American, I just sorta phased out when people started talking about location, with mention of a bunch of locations that meant nothing to me. They appear on the west coast? North or South? I can see them following the coastline, mostly, really. Especially since they have no idea where they are - for all we know, they can consider it another coastline of the Mediterranean for years, maybe several hundred, depending on their technological development and spread. I don't think they took any astronomers with them and the odds of there being seamen is low. Although it's not inconceivable that there are. Not being able to immediately find well-known astronomical markers may be a dead tipoff that they may be in Kansas evermore. I don't see them holding together a Americas-spanning Empire befor the advent of the telegraph and train a reason the Roman grew up aro the Medit ot of travel will be by boat for a very long time. anea Although it would be f------ awesome if they could devise long-range travel by special aqueducts. Actually, this raises a pretty interesting question, now that I think about it. There wasn't really anything preventing the romans from cross-atlantic travel. And these people will obviously have boats. And chances that they are still on Terra (Mars is where he's supposed to be. So is Jupiter. And if anyone had any doubts, Luna is right f------ there, every night). that they will be able to readily identify specific astronomical markers in order to establish Who's to say that they don't just up and sail home after a hundred-or-so years? Or even less, provided they can find the resources. Just throwing it out there. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:29 No.15494878 >>15494807 romans really didnt have the kind of boats required to cross an ocean also it is perfectly possible for the Cali-romans to stumle upon using electricity though happy accidents that result in something akin to a baghdad batter and then experimenting with it I think given their circumstances they'd have had to experiment with all sorts of things around them to figure out how to best make use of what they have since most of the plants and wildlife around is unlike what they'd be used to maybe have it so the cali-romans are signifigantly more advanced with electricity to the point of having telegraphs but they are lagging behind europeans with gunpowder? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:31 No.15494906 Wait, what about the Chinese? Would there be a big Chinese myth about how they used their magic to disappear a goddamn Roman Legion? Would they remember it on the off chance the Atlantean Empire expanded off into the Pacific? O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:35 No.15494944 >>15494906 they'd have legends of robed sorcerer monks from the far east, inflated into legendary hyperboles over time if they found china again they'd probably want to pick up where their ancestors left off O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:41 No.15495006 >>15494878 Sure, but if they're smart enough to pick up telegraphs, then they're not going to take more than one or two encounters to begin experimenting for gunpowder. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:50 No.15495099 >>15495006 Gunpowder came about in China because someone was trying to find an immortality drug and discovered that if you mix charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter, that s--- explodes. I don't know about charcoal, but if you had a Atlantean tinkerer or chemist somewhere around that could find an excuse to put all that stuff together -maybe for introducing incense to some new Roman/Native American cult around Portland, Oregon, or some damn thing- you'd have gunpowder. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:54 No.15495137 On the one hand you have maybe 70-100 european explorers armed mostly with swords and crossbows, with a few guns and maybe a cannon or two thrown in. The wealthy will have a horse, which in fact kicks them up into a higher catagory when the loot is divided. Armor is mostly a steel breastplate and helmet. On the other you have the entirety of the Tenth Legion and four cohorts of Sioux Auxila and two of Huron. I know who I'm placing my money on. The Romans will have gunpowder tech a few weeks after they capture a few guns. And if they capture a few guns, they're gonna capture more then a few Spaniards. Who, properly motivated, will teach the romans how to make gunpowder. And Guns. Ten years later the Senate orders 12 legions to launch an invasion against Spain under the command of the rising star Marcus Four Winds Crassus. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:55 No.15495155 >>15495099 Indeed, I didn't mean to imply that they wouldn't have gunpowder, only that they would be behind at it in relation to the europeans giving the telegraphs and similarly leveled electrical technologies would give europeans a profound sense of wonder and awe O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)17:58 No.15495183 >>15495137 and then they learn what happened to the 'old rome' O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:08 No.15495282 >>15495183 >Implying a unified rome with the resources of north america wouldn't totally destroy most of Europe. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:11 No.15495314 >>15495282 World War 1 comes early in this timeline O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:22 No.15495416 >>15495314 It'd make for a fuckawesome global war, but I actually think it'd stave off WWI. wWI came about because of tensions between the European nations; if they had an outside enemy to worry about, they might well have banded together against it and smoothed over their problems. Whether hostilities would break out between them and Ameri-Romans, l'm not sure. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:24 No.15495439 >>15495416 well I was just saying that war between Ameri-Rome and europe would be large enough to be called a world war though it'd be a hell of a lot different O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:33 No.15495520 >>15495487 also the Aztecs might have wisened up a bit through their contact with Rome to actually persist long enough to be considered a regional contender if they get their game enough to conclude peace treaties with rome they might take to conquering southward outside of rome's reach O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:36 No.15495548 >>15495520 The thought of an Aztec empire, battle hardened by fights with Romans resisting a Spanish invasion and unifying all of South America under Aztec rule is terrifying. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:38 No.15495583 >>15495548 WHICH MAKES IT F------ HORRIFYINGLY AWESOME O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:41 No.15495611 >>15495548 Gentlemen. Roman North Americans Aztec South Americans Chinese East Asians Prussian Europeans Russian West Asians Persian Middle Easterners And.. someone in africa. The wars will go on forever. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:43 No.15495630 >>15495611 F--- IT. INDIA UNITES SOMEHOW. THIS WORLD WILL NEVER LEAVE A STATE OF WAR. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)18:45 No.15495655 Also, it should be noted that Roman politics can be pretty vicious. 1000 years is easily enough time to have a civil war. O Cerebrate Anon 07/06/11(Wed)18:58 No.15495805 Any decent inspection of this will have the Romans popping up in the middle of the Mayan Empire, and homogenizing with them to become a massive continent-spanning superpower. They will worship a mix of the Roman gods and the Mayan gods, and the interactions thereof should make it obvious that they are completely juxtaposed, and yet everybody should still believe them. The disease thing will be a problem, but the Romans were very good at getting women and children from their conquered lands. I daresay the human sacrifice will be limited to men above the age that they could have been converted to RoMayans. The thing to ask about it whether they will have developed firearms. The Romans certainly had the knack for innovation that could have led to them, but would they have bothered, when all the locals could be conquered with the equipment the Legionnaires already had? Be sure to mix names, and have a new Praetorian Guard that protects the High Priests. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)19:44 No.15496237 >>15496000 If they're finding most of their women among native tribes - and in other words, having native women raising their children - then they will (whether willingly or not) end up with culture that's mostly based on the native americans. Maybe not immediately, but within a few generations. Government, laws, and whatnot will be Roman simply because those are much slower to change, but religion, folklore, and so on will be mostly native. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)19:52 No.15496296 >>15491610 It's something worth noting that the concept of infinity is something that really frightened and confused the ancient Greeks and Romans. This ought to be taken into account when they are thrust into an environment that that is defined by how vast it is. FUCKHUGE mountains to the east that are followed by FUCKHUGE plains of eternity and FUCKHUGE deserts of infinity to the south. This is going to be something that they will have difficulty coping with culturally. It's also worth noting that the Romans put much more emphasis on oratory, philosophy, and the arts then they did on technlogical innovation. That was more of a greek thing. That was not to say that iinnovation did not take place, it certainly did as the Romans were a very, very pragmatic and practical bunch, but it is something that will very much affect this new empire, as they are deprived of Greece. O Anonymous 07/06/11(Wed)20:36 No.15496685 >>15496510 The followers of the Jupiter Eagle, the traditionalists, still keep slaves, but the most populous areas of the empire have converted to the worship of the Great Spirit/White Buffalo - which would function as a Christianity analog that reintroduces Hellenic and Stoic concepts of mercy and temperance that a Roman legion would have been quick to forget. So the modernizers from the big Midwest metropolitan areas, only incorporated a few hundred years ago (history being unfuc while the colony of traditionalists who sailed from St.Louisium to New Orleanium (or marched there across Texas) and from there into the South would be planters exercising brutal latifundium. for a while East of the allows the Sioux to develop or something like that), would be worshipers who consider slavery to be decadent and cruel, Anyway, in the initial scenario - Roman disease wipes out most central californian Indians. The survivors escape as refugees, spreading the disease in less extravagant amounts to the Pacific Northwest fisher tribes and the Southwest river-huddling desert farmers. The Romans incorporate a few slaves into their population, ones that don't die or escape as refugees - and they help the Romans with languages and developing disease tolerance (a handful of slaves enough to spread mostly non-fatal outbreaks of local diseases). Now, would the Romans start farming or is more in their character to march/roadbuild/fortbuild as they are prone to do up into the Northwest to get fish or down into the deserts to conquer proto-pueblo and relatively prosperous river-based farmers growing corn and whatnot? Corn would be a big deal. O Cerebrate Anon 07/06/11(Wed)21:53 No.15497382 >>15497305 Always with the animals. Kokopelli, the trickster who brings rain, crops, babies, and sometimes has little fun with the ladies using his detachable penis! Nanook, Master of Bears! Glooscap, who bound up the great eagle whose flapping wings created unbearable storms! Not to mention the mesoamerican gods. It's much more likely that the Romans would blend the animal deities into nymphs or transformed gods, whereas many of the actual anthropomorphized deities would actually be assimilated. O Anonymous 07/07/11(Thu)12:32 No.15503507 >>15501122 >>15500430 So with double the legion in camp followers, 7 legions, each of 6000 men at fresh fighting strength (ie: no casualties since leaving rome)... 42000 Legionnaires 84000 Camp followers. 126000 Romans suddenly appearing on the west cost of the US, with 1/3 of them trained to fight. Yeah, the natives are f-----.

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