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The pope on free speech: if someone was rude about my mother, I would punch him

“If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,” Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. “It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”

Francis has been literally the only major public figure I've seen so far to adopt the explicit position of "if you insult faith, expect physical retaliation".

While I've always believed that Francis has been a good thing for the Church, I really can't agree with him at all in this case. Although I'd rather that everyone minded their own business without throwing insults around needlessly, a person should never have to fear for their physical safety just because of something they've said.

Thoughts, KYM?

Well, what are the chances of you clocking a /pol/-tard IRL (for any stupid shit the /pol/-tard would say) or punching a redneck in a face for calling you a "dirty porch monkey" for being black? As much as it would be preferred not to cause physical harm. Some people's emotions are stronger then they can control. So they end up acting with out thinking. Especially if the person doing the criticizing/insulting/whatever is being a dick about it.

I do think people should not be bigoted about things and not get physical about it either, let alone killing a man over a drawing. It will be hard to teach someone not to get physical at another for what they say. (But it is dependent on how angry they can get though).

Luke 6:29
"If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them."

Matthew 5:39
"But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

(AKA the "the thank you sir may I have another" policy)

I guess his holiness knows better than Christ.

I think I can explain this. Ahem…

The pope comes from Argentina, right? You see, in Argentina, there was a blues musician called "Pappo" and he once said "Que nadie se atreva, a tocar a mi vieja porque mi vieja, es lo mas grande que hay". Translated to english it would be something like: "Don't fuck around with my mom, because she is the best thing there is." Needless to say, the pope must be a fan of him, thus he adopted that idea.

The thing is, the pope doesn't mean those words as in "I'm okay with violence" Take it as some short of injoke that only argentinians understand. Like if you were to 4chan and you say "lol you have been memedon", nobody would understand it.

What the pope meant was; no, actually, what Francisco meant to say was "For my mother, I'd throw away my religion and everything I believe, because to me, my mother is the best thing there is."

Again, he is not speaking as the pope. He is speaking as the person he is, as Francisco, and he doesn't have a problem in showing from where he comes.

IMO.

Meh don't worry. Is a little of Argentine attitude that rised from him (we live bullshit everyday)

I'm pretty sure he's not condoning the attack, but he's saying that it is kinda expected. Not everyone will turn the other cheek.

Let's face it, many of the drawings of Charlie , like it or not, were really offensive to many people, and sadly not many societies will say "ok" to that.

Okay, IYO. Except, did you miss the part where he also said "you cannot insult the faith of others, you cannot make fun of the faith of others"? I don't think any extra interpretation is required to figure out what he's driving at there.
That attitude, I*M*O, is utter horseshit, and goes against the very fundamental idea of liberty. And the funny thing is, he's still the best pope in… eh, let's go with forever. This is the Catholic church we're talking about here- it's just generally a good idea to lower your expectations.

I'm strongly against insulting others' beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. However I have to disagree with Pope Francis on this; punishing someone physically because of something they said is no appropriate way to retaliate. People should be entitled to say whatever they want, even if it makes them a huge dick.

Except, did you miss the part where he also said “you cannot insult the faith of others, you cannot make fun of the faith of others”?

It means that no matter if you tell him to "fuck off", he won't stop believing in what is important to him. In this case, his mother. He takes his cultural (and personal) beliefs as something serious, at the same level of religion. Of course he is still puts his labor as the pope as a priority.

I don’t think any extra interpretation is required to figure out what he’s driving at there.

Except that you are overthinking it. It's more simple than it looks. To put it bluntly, he is joking.

That attitude, I*M*O, is utter horseshit, and goes against the very fundamental idea of liberty.

If you disagree with me you are more than welcome to do it, but there is no need to be so agressive about it.

Dude, let me tell you

I'm from Argentina, and I in fact knew Pope Francisco (Bergoglio)

He's one of the most kind man I ever knew. He's charismatic and loved to make funny phrases.
It's common here that almost everybody has an easygoing attitude.

Maybe his wording was bad or the way they translated his words was bad (maybe he talked in spanish or italian). but I asure you that this phrase was 100% to not be taken literal. C'mon, is not like he's in his 30s to punch someone easily! He's already an old man.

This was more of an analogy saying how many people will react to the things Charlie draw. He's not condoning nor accepting, but he's noting that its going to happen (let's be real, any other orthodox christian would be saying "he deserved that" in his position).

I do think the Pope was trying to say "action=reaction" thing regarding insulting peoples faith. Though i do disagree about retaliating violently atleast. Insulting a man's religious beliefs because of anything is just distasteful and outright insensitive IMO, but retaliating with violence is never the solution.

Man: Pope Francis: Born to Regina Maria Siv-
Pope: YOU TALKIN' 'BOUT MY MOM!?
Man:I'm sorry I-
Pope Francis Punches man in the gut
Man: Let's do this!
man gives 300 hit combo
pope sustains damage
pope delivers a megaton punch
man hurls into wall
man gets up
Man: ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA
pope: MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA
pope jumps away to perform epic noscope
man gets pwnd like a noob

Aside from that i believe in freedom for discussion but i don't believe in the freedom to insult someone.

Loli wrote:

If you disagree with me you are more than welcome to do it, but there is no need to be so aggressive about it.

How exactly was I being aggressive towards you in any way? I was just stating my viewpoint with the language I normally use on here. Still, I can't see how that part of his statement could possibly be construed as a joke. Where's the exaggeration? The punchline? Trust me, I hope he wasn't being serious.

Sonic Prime wrote:

Dude, let me tell you

I’m from Argentina, and I in fact knew Pope Francisco (Bergoglio)

He’s one of the most kind man I ever knew. He’s charismatic and loved to make funny phrases.

Wait a minute… you're actually claiming that you literally knew the guy? Okay man, you have to back that up with evidence. That's nothing against you. I live in the State of Washington, but if I used that to say I was pals with Kurt Cobain or Bill Gates you'd have every reason to call bullshit.

Samekichi Kiseki wrote:

Insulting a man’s religious beliefs because of anything is just distasteful and outright insensitive IMO, but retaliating with violence is never the solution.

i anger people by doing nothing wrong wrote:

Aside from that i believe in freedom for discussion but i don’t believe in the freedom to insult someone.

(Okay, I know he probably didn't actually say that, but it is something he would have said.)

I'm an atheist. If you want to tell me that I'm going to be swallowing Beelzebub's ballsack for all eternity because of that, then be my fucking guest. I have every right to retaliate, but with words and not the sword. It's a pretty fundamental principle that you don't have the right to not be offended, and no matter how hard you try to be indefensible I will be on your side when it comes to free speech.

@0.9999…=1

Making petty insults that you know will offend someone does not promote discussion but instead does the exact opposite. Now it is true that there are no rights being offended from discussion, so the solution would be to remain civil. It would apply to you and the person you are debating.

If a person became uncivil and threw vile dumb insults at you then i wouldn't mind if he did community service because of that. Because like i said, making petty insults deters discussion.

There would be a difference with:
"Barrack obama is immoral because x,y and z"
And
"F****** OBAMA! I HATE HIS F****** S*** A** F***!"

The last one does not promote discussion due to the abusive language.

It's not called the "freedom of discussion", but speech, and the fact is that any insult, no matter how petty or deterring to civil discourse, is still speech and therefore still needs to be protected. You see, what constitutes "worthy" speech is a matter of opinion- even if the majority believed that a certain joke or comment or whatever was harmful/immoral/ that still wouldn't matter, because the whole point of enforcing rights is to defend individuals against that majority. Idiots and dickmunchers will spew their shit, but that's the price you have to pay.

How exactly was I being aggressive towards you in any way? I was just stating my viewpoint with the language I normally use on here.

For the first time on my life, I agree with warriorman. It's obvious that you enjoy debating, but insulting the other party doesn't help to the discussion.

Essentially, you are being a dick. Making good points doesn't excuse you from having a little bit of respect for the other party.

Still, I can’t see how that part of his statement could possibly be construed as a joke. Where’s the exaggeration? The punchline? Trust me, I hope he wasn’t being serious.

He wasn't being serious. He doesn't have to be serious all the time. Where is the fun in that?

He's still a person and he's still has the right to make jokes. Obviously, he doesn't care about what other people says about him.

Okay folks, we are talking about the pope in here. If you want to talk about "How to use the "freedom of speech" to act like a dick" feel free to make another thread.

I won't say it again.

Again, I wasn't trying to insult anyone here, nor do I think I did so, even accidentally. If it turns out I'm wrong then I'm certainly sorry, but I want you to actually show me where in my posts you're seeing that.

But back to the pope- just to be clear, you've already convinced me that the part about punching someone was a joke. Makes sense based on culture and context and whatnot. But I simply can't figure out how what he said after that- the part about how not insulting people's faith- could be interpreted as an extension of that joke. Instead, in my opinion, he used the joke as a springboard to reach a point that he intended to be at least mostly serious. Of course, I don't live in the guy's head, but neither does anyone else. I've got no solid evidence, you've got no solid evidence- all we have is what are brains tell us based on how we read the words. But I genuinely do want to understand your view on it better, so please clarify for me.

Hey, thanks for sharing this insight! I love learning about other cultures.

Guys i've made a freedom of speech thread if you want to discuss it

Also i have made a flaw in my reasoning. Pope francis should've charged his kamehameha wave.

Particle Mare wrote:

While I’ve always believed that Francis has been a good thing for the Church, I really can’t agree with him at all in this case. Although I’d rather that everyone minded their own business without throwing insults around needlessly, a person should never have to fear for their physical safety just because of something they’ve said.

>Implying a punch or a similar form of physical retalliation equals a fucking bullet through the head.

If someone insults someone's relatives, it's assumable that if they continue that they can eventually expect a punch in return for it. That's a normal human reaction, as people don't like to see the things they feel passionate about insulted. You wouldn't like it either if I constantly insulted something you like, same case for everyone in this thread, same case for me.

It's like parents who give their children a slap to get them to behave. Do you consider that child beating or simply parenting? Adults need parenting too sometimes.

0.999…=1 wrote:

And the funny thing is, he’s still the best pope in… eh, let’s go with forever. This is the Catholic church we’re talking about here- it’s just generally a good idea to lower your expectations.

I’m an atheist. If you want to tell me that I’m going to be swallowing Beelzebub’s ballsack for all eternity because of that, then be my fucking guest.

You sure you're not using this opportunity to take a piss at religion and tip your fedora? You're bringing irrelevant stuff into the argument here bro.

I have every right to retaliate, but with words and not the sword.

People often say that words are stronger than violence, which includes how much they can hurt for someone. Words can drive people to suicide. So why are you saying all forms of speech should be freely allowed when words just as easily have been responsible for murder?

But I simply can’t figure out how what he said after that- the part about how not insulting people’s faith- could be interpreted as an extension of that joke.

Fair enough, but not completely. Because he said “It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”

Now where in there do you see him approving retaliation? Where does he say that killing or heavy physical violence is an acceptable reaction? The pope openly says that he doesn't condone insulting someone's religion, but he doesn't openly say that he finds physical retaliation an acceptable response.

I believe that both what he said and the springboard joke are more aiming to say: "You shouldn't insult someone's religion and I don't condone doing so, and insulting it simply is at your own risk regardless if I condone retalation."

Thus my opinion about what Pope Francis said is simple: A poor choice of words.

RandomMan wrote:

You sure you’re not using this opportunity to take a piss at religion and tip your fedora? You’re bringing irrelevant stuff into the argument here bro.

So let me get this straight: We're talking about the pope, as in the literal leader of the largest denomination of Christianity in the world… making a point about a recent event where extremist Muslims attacked the headquarters of a satirical magazine because it had offended their faith… and bringing up religion is completely irrelevant?

Look, by beef with the Catholic Church ain't just because I'm an atheist. I type this as a senior at a fucking Catholic school, which I've been going to since the sixth grade. (Hell, all the way back then my plan was to actually join. I guess procrastination saved my ass for once.) It was the officially required world religion course in freshman year that made me truly consider and question all this stuff for the first time. And then there was the time that, right before Christmas break, they fired a vice-principle by the orders of the Arch-Diocese because they found out that he'd gotten married over the summer to another man. God knows how many people sobbed and/or were completely pissed off because apparently the guy was really cool (though I didn't know really know him), and even my typical stone-faced English teacher could barely keep himself together because he'd recently seen his aunt and her partner finally get together after a decades-long struggle. I've never seen a bigger clusterfuck in my life.

And guess what? I actually think Pope Francis is fucking great, for the precise reason that he seems entirely willing to fix that kind of stuff that's been going on with Catholicism since it's inception. By my eye he appears to generally be a really good person, and that opinion isn't going to change because he said this one thing I really disagree with.
In fact, a poor choice a words sounds like a totally reasonable possibility. I can't go ten minutes without doing that.

As an aside, RM, the phrase "the pen is mightier than the sword" isn't meant to be taken literally. Last time I checked, shooting someone in the leg is still more harmful than calling them a dummy, faggot, and worthless bag of flaming dog-shit. And just as you can't get away with murder because you freaked out over something someone said, the person that said that thing can't be held accountable for said murder by proxy unless the thing the person said was "go kill this person, as I have money/am your boss/will kill you unless you don't".

EDIT: I just realized that I forgot to mention harassment, which you brought up and is technically another exception. However, in that case it's not really the speech itself that's illegal but the manner in which it was delivered, i.e. not leaving someone alone and bombarding them with insulting/disturbing remarks. That, obviously, is far and away different from a publication.