Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

This image has sparked a debate/petty argument in the Cringeworthy thread, so for the sake of avoiding bans, keeping that thread open a bit longer (dear god, I became the enemy) and debate in general, I ask the question: Where do you draw the line between Nonbinary genders that you accept and respect, and those you see as utter bullshit made up by special snowflakes deserving of ridicule? Let's add Sexual orientations to that as well. Since many people here seem to be defensive towards the Transgender continuity while also loving to ridicule Tumblr, I feel it's time we set things straight.

Personally, I am willing to accept Transsexuals, as in people whose brains are a different gender than their physical sex, because I've seen studies and evidence supporting that it's more than a persons desire to be the other sex, and seen many reputable doctors advocate for them as well. However, beyond "Male Body, Female Brain" and vise-versa. I have yet to see evidence for "demisexual" "agender" and the like, and anytime someone brings up "Xenosexual" I can't help but laugh, and anytime I see someone defend "Otherkin" along with Transsexualism I cringe.

I also defend Pansexual as a thing because while being Bisexual myself and accepting of the Trans community, I do not find myself attracted to them and feel there is a difference between Pan and Bi. Stuff like "Heteroromantic" when attached to "Asexual" I also accept because I've seen people who are asexual, as in do not feel sexual attraction to anyone, still feel romantically attached to someone.

Anyway I got to get this out in time so discuss, I guess?

Regarding the image I think people are more pissed off at it not because of if having made-up genders, but because it adds nothing but distracting (or even outright inconsistent) elements to preexisting characters. The tumblr ask blog itself fixates on genders, sexes, and romantic/sexual relationships, which makes it rather 1-dimensional and hardly true to the charm people got out of Undertale.

So in regards to your question, I'd say I'll accept anything so long as people don't fixate on it. People who approach relationships with the mindset of "I am x-gender x-sexual" rather than "I like x" come off as 'missing the point' of relationships in my eyes. Like I fancy girls, but I don't fancy guys, but I could see myself fancying a mtf trans girl. IDGAF what the label for that is, that's just how I feel.

TL;DR: Labels on sex and gender distract what matters about people: their desires and character.

The sexuality thing never botherered me. They tend to be pretty self explanatory and don't tend to get too weird. I mean its not like there's some gene that works like a checklist that says you have to be gay, straight, bi or ace and any variation or nuance is not allowed. Really sexualities are just labels or descriptions of how you feel or what gets your rocks off.

The gender thing works in a similar way. Its just a description of what you feel and experience. Frankly I don't know what its like to be agender or nonbinary. I don't know what its like to be female either. The whole star gender thing may seem weird but unless the person actually thinks that they are a star I don't really have a problem with it. I mean after all its just the person attempting to convey the feelings or emotion associated with their gender.

I think gay, bi, and trans people can legitimately claim to be harassed mercilessly during their formative years, partially explaining the distressingly high suicide rates. As such, student counselors should be proactive to step in when it looks like these children and teens are close to being harmed or harming themselves. That said, I believe there are only two genders and they are directly tied to one's biological sex. I disregard nearly every description on the above picture as attempts at justifying psychological illnesses. I stick to the medical pronouns.

It's less what they identify as, more "Oh, this female body was once a male body, there goes that erection" And I think "ace" is used in the same way "straight" "gay" "les" and "Trans" are, as a short hand. Simply saying "A" is a bit confusing. "Are you straight or gay?" "I'm A" "…A what?" Ace is close enough A to work, and sounds like the beginning of Asexual, so I don't think it's just people trying to make it sound cool.

Oh, this female body was once a male body, there goes that erection

Because we have the capacity to entirely change the gender of the body now?

And I think “ace” is used in the same way “straight” “gay” “les” and “Trans” are, as a short hand. Simply saying “A” is a bit confusing. “Are you straight or gay?” “I’m A” “…A what?” Ace is close enough A to work, and sounds like the beginning of Asexual, so I don’t think it’s just people trying to make it sound cool.

Or you could just say 'Asexual'. It's a short word and doesn't sound entirely out of place.

I personally don't mind any nonbinary genders or "tumblr" sexual orientations at all.

I'm pretty open about it all to be honest. I'm not exactly anyone but me, so I can't really say if they're really that or not. Of course, there's a point where I'm able to go "okay, I think you're just BSing all this", but it's actually pretty far out there.

Also, just to attempt to put an end to the mental illness thing… homosexuality was declassified as a mental illness by the medical community because any psychiatric problems related to it were caused because people treated them differently or they were forced to be something else. It lacked the ability to cause duress and upset all by itself, and that's part of why they removed it from their list of mental illnesses. Being bi, ace, trans, etc. are the same thing. Assuming people don't treat them differently, and are able to do what they want to do, typically speaking it has the same outcome – they're perfectly functional members of society.

Being abnormal, in the literal sense of the word, is not enough to characterize something as a illness, mental or otherwise.

Also, if you're male or female gender, I'm not sure you really have the ability to rule out other genders. Seriously, how can you know that? By what method are you able to say "yep, every other person in existence definitely has one of these two genders"?

Can someone please explain to me what is or basic concepts of it :
Aromantic
Lithoromantic
Panromantic
Andromantic
Demiromantic (does not believe in fist romance?)
Agender
Aroflux
Nonbinary (you are what? No gender?or anything but the two main genders? )
Is pansexual same as panasexual?

As for the topic OP is talking about, I am someone who does not have a great knowledge about this matter (my earlier questions make that clear) but I think that by talking to someone and making the right questions you will know based on the answers the person is giving you, you will manage to know if it is full of shit or not.

That's the point, the reason I don't find Transsexuals attractive is because you can't fully turn you body into the other sex.

Asexual isn't one syllable though, which all identifying nouns get shortened to.

Also'd like to point out that the argument I made this thread for hasn't even made it here and is still on going in the other thread. Fantastic

I've never understood why anyone would want to change themselves sexually, and to me it's always been a sign of insecurity towards one's biological gender. That isn't to say I'm against transgenders in any way. It's no concern of mine how people want to change themselves, but I've always supported being proud of who you already are.
Anything beyond transgender seems pretty bogus to me, though. Calling people who identify with tumblr genders psychologically ill seems to be going a bit too far, but they definitely have the wrong idea of how genders are supposed to work.

Ryumaru wrote:

And I think “ace” is used in the same way “straight” “gay” “les” and “Trans” are, as a short hand. Simply saying “A” is a bit confusing. “Are you straight or gay?” “I’m A” “…A what?” Ace is close enough A to work, and sounds like the beginning of Asexual, so I don’t think it’s just people trying to make it sound cool.

This is the first time I'm hearing "ace" being used in this context. For the sake of communication, just stick with Asexual.

That’s the point, the reason I don’t find Transsexuals attractive is because you can’t fully turn you body into the other sex.

It still doesn't make sense given how pansexuality is usually defined (attraction to all genders)

Asexual isn’t one syllable though, which all identifying nouns get shortened to.

Does it need to be? If all of its shortened forms sound stupid and out of place, then why bother?

Every category noun is going to be shortened, that's just the nature of language. And if you believe there is more than Cis Male and Cis Female, then a difference between Bi and Pan makes perfect sense.

Every category noun is going to be shortened, that’s just the nature of language.

Doesn't make it any less stupid.

And if you believe there is more than Cis Male and Cis Female, then a difference between Bi and Pan makes perfect sense.

That only implies that some bisexual people have an issue with sex reassignment surgery (and possibly HRT) and some don't, who you could label as something else if you really wanted to. It doesn't imply anything about how people are physically attracted to what other people identify as.

"Aromantic"
Doesn't feel romantic attraction, may or may not feel sexual attraction.

"Lithoromantic"
romantically attracted to rocks googling this didn't help. I think it just means shy It looks like it means someone who likes the idea of romance in their head but doesn't actually want it irl

"Panromantic"
Romantically attracted to all genders

"Andromantic"
Romantically attracted to males

"Demiromantic (does not believe in fist romance?)"
Pretty much

"Agender "
Not having a gender

"Aroflux"
Fuck if I know. Google didn't help.

"Nonbinary"
Not conforming to either male or female

"These are the people threaten to commit suicide if they don’t get their way"
That's a ridiculous overgeneralization.

"Doesn’t make it any less stupid"
That's purely a matter of taste.

My problem with the picture was the contradictory sexually displayed between canon partners, which is admittedly far more pointless than what's being discussed right now.

We have Biological proof of LGBT standpoints, and we have further endocrinological proof for some Transgender standpoints. However, these unnecessarily complex sexualities in that pic, like the one for Gaster (what the fuck does that even mean), is a Psychological nature and we simply don't have evidence for the legitimacy of that sexuality. Does the sexuality lie in a difference of hormone balance secreted by the hypothalamus? Or is it simply a secretion of serotonin, because these people are making up sexualities to troll websites for elatedness?

That’s purely a matter of taste.

Homo- root word for 'same'
Hetero – root word for 'different'
Trans – root word for 'transitioning'
Ace – adjective meaning 'cool'
A – an article

Some people do have an issue (when it comes to sexual attraction) with people who've had SRS or HRT, I'm one of them. That's why there is a distinction

Bi = Attracted to Male and Female, but not Trans or anything else.

Pan = Attracted to Male, Female, Trans, Herm, anything under the sun.

I myself am Bi but am not sexually attracted to Transsexuals who've had SRS and HRT because it doesn't make the conversion 100% and triggers some kind of sexual uncanny valley reaction in me an others. That's why I'm saying Bisexual does not mean "attracted to all genders and sexes" because I know first hand that's not true. That's why there is a distinction between Bi (literally means two) and Pan (literally means all) because people do have a distinction in sexual attraction between a born woman and a post-op woman on HRT.

Gay – a word that means happy
Straight – a word that means not curved or crooked

Its slang it doesn't have to etymologically perfect.

People don't use Ace in the same way as "Homo" they use it in the same way as "Gay" which can still mean "Jolly/Happy"

Some people do have an issue (when it comes to sexual attraction) with people who’ve had SRS or HRT, I’m one of them. That’s why there is a distinction

You're still basing that distinction entirely on physical differences and not based on anything to do with genders.

Its slang it doesn’t have to etymologically perfect.

People don’t use Ace in the same way as “Homo” they use it in the same way as “Gay” which can still mean “Jolly/Happy”

They're still using a word that has no actual connection to its meaning beyond the one they just made up for the purposes of shaving off one syllable from its full definition.

That's what I call stupid, dumb, retarded, etc.

This seems like a case of people taking what is a subjective opinion of themselves and demanding it be turned into an objective condition. It also feels like a desire to confine categories into such specifications that it completely clutters the issue.

Like what was mentioned above. Did we really need a single word term for a person who enjoys the idea of romance but doesn't want it in their real lives? Isn't that called being a romantic?, Does it really need to be called a sexuality and given the same level of respect as being homisexual or bisexual or transgender, which come from actual chemical and genetic properties we can actually observe, and not a simple preference. It's not as if these romantics desire something of a different gender entierly that cannot be defined by either being homo, bi, or trans.

And all the otherkins, furrys, and those who lust for fictional characters, can all just be considered offshoots of the same things, fictional-philes, whose attractions can still be broken down into the 3 categories above.

Even those who don't care about gender can be considered bisexual since it falls under the exact same effect. All in all, removing the degrees of sexuality and gender as well as adding hundreds of more just seems to defeat the point they try to make, that all they're doing is categorizing. They've made the differences so subtle it makes miscategorizing all the more easier.

And as for those who want to physically mutilate themselves such as making themselves blind or amlutees, or give themselves animalistic features, or ingest rocks and non-edible materials to be closer to their true dragon selves, they should be receiving some kind of psychological help. Their destructive behavior doesn't just affect them, but their loved ones as well should they expire or mutilate themselves, and the state for the emergency visit to the hospital because Devin drank floor cleaner to be closer to their poison pokemon fursona.

I believe Cis Male and Trans Male to be different from one another, so do others. Homosexual, Heterosexual, Bisexual etc are all based on sexual attraction, i,e, physical differences

You mean how like Gay used to mean Happy, Faggot used to mean a bundle of sticks? That totally has a connection with Homosexuality. And it's three syllables, A-sex-u-al to Ace. That's what I call stupid, dumb, retarded etc

Homosexual, Heterosexual, Bisexual etc are all based on sexual attraction, i,e, physical differences

So why is pansexuality (and other "sexualities" that are brought up on tumblr) often defined based solely on the gender identities of those involved?

You mean how like Gay used to mean Happy, Faggot used to mean a bundle of sticks? That totally has a connection with Homosexuality.

I do recall faggot going from sticks to cigarettes to the kinds of people smoking them. At any rate, the transformation of the meaning of both words wasn't an obviously artificial process done to mimic other sexualities.

I don't really mind "Tumblr sexuality" (anything beyond gay, straight, bi, ace, cis, or trans) and I do realize that human sexuality is a complicated thing. However, unless I'm rather good friends with you or something, I'm probably going not going to take your "Tumblr sexuality" seriously. I mean, I won't mock it, and if you feel it's SUPER important to know what it is, then I'll learn it, but I feel like this is just another attempt of people trying to "sort" sexuality into nice neat little boxes, which almost never works.

TL;DR I'm indifferent.

Because Cis and Trans are different gender identities? Pansexual predates Tumblr so don't lump it in there. I don't get why "Bi = likes Cis Male + Cis Female Pan = likes everything" is such a hard thing for people to understand.

Ace is used because Asexuality didn't have a shorthand and Asexuals wanted one

Because Cis and Trans are different gender identities?

But you're not distinguishing the modes of physical attraction based on gender identities, you're doing it based on the physical states of the people involved.

This is like saying a person who is only attracted to Females should be attracted to a biologically Male person who identifies as Female because on the gender identity is the same. Did you even read the rest of my comment?

This is like saying a person who is only attracted to Females should be attracted to a biologically Male person who identifies as Female because on the gender identity is the same.

No, it's the opposite- what the person identifies as shouldn't have any bearing on what someone is physically attracted to, making the inclusion of gender identity in many different "sexualities" incorrect. I don't see what the rest of your comment has to do with that.

Fine, if we ignore the mental part of it, do you at least concede that a born Female and a Post-op Female are biologically different (if you say no, you'd be a liar) then you can see why Bi's exclude them but Pan's don't. I only used the physical attraction part as an example, mentally, someone can have trouble being attracted to someone whose mind is a different gender than their body. Sexual attraction and orientation is a lot more than "do they have a penis or a vagina"

do you at least concede that a born Female and a Post-op Female are biologically different (if you say no, you’d be a liar) then you can see why Bi’s exclude them but Pan’s don’t.

Yes. In fact, I already mentioned that.

That only implies that some bisexual people have an issue with sex reassignment surgery (and possibly HRT) and some don’t

I only used the physical attraction part as an example, mentally, someone can have trouble being attracted to someone whose mind is a different gender than their body.

Mentally? What does that have to do with sexual attraction and orientation?

And I already answered that by saying those that have the issue are called "Bisexual" and those that don't are called "Pansexual" I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

"Mentally? What does that have to do with sexual attraction and orientation?"

A lot, depending on who you ask

I don’t get why this is so hard to understand.

Because you keep saying that gender identity is a part of it even though you also keep saying it isn't?

A lot, depending on who you ask

Not buying it.

I'm saying gender identity is one part of it while there are other parts like their body and HRT. I'm not saying one excludes the other.

"Not buying it."

So the only thing that attracts a person to you is there body?

I’m saying gender identity is one part of it

I believe Cis Male and Trans Male to be different from one another, so do others. Homosexual, Heterosexual, Bisexual etc are all based on sexual attraction, i,e, physical differences

So the only thing that attracts a person to you is there body?

Physically, yes. That's how sexual attraction works.

"People who say “demi-sexual” or “pansexual” or w/e is exactly like describing your car color in hex code. Its just trying too hard to be different and super specific."

It really isn't. Some people identify as Baptist rather than just Christians. Hell some people identify as northern or southern or American Baptist. Some people get even more specific than that. Describing a color in hexcode gives a technical specification of color so exact that people can perfectly reproduce it. The equivalent of that would be listing every kink and fetish and every single thing that turns them on.

"people who over use identities simply have an identity disorder. They can’t figure out who they are, so they do what ever they can to try and figure it out."

Is that your professional opinion? Lots of people are interested in discovering their identities, this doesn't mean they have a personality disorder.

I think you have to break down the meaning of the gender, if it makes sense then it is reasonable but if it is just a renaming of another gender or does not make any sense, then it should not be used.

"You don’t see many self-confident people using multiple specific labels to describe themselves."

How specific do you mean? Because people generally identity by nationality, race/ ethnicity, religion, political affiliation/ philosophy, familial ties (e.g. father, youngest child, etc.), career, hobby, sexuality, and gender, and sometimes generation, genealogy, personality traits, income, noteworthy accomplishments (e.g. Olympic Medalist, veteran, Ph. D.), income, noteworthy physical or mental traits, and/or life choices (e.g. vegetarian, pet owner, smoker, etc.).

For example, if someone described themselves as straight, female, Christian, and single, that would sound more like a part of a bio in a dating website than an indication of mental illness. Granted, none of those terms is terribly specific, but that's why I'm asking where the line is drawn.

Maybe it's only because I'm about as simple as it comes, but I found some terminologies used commonly on Tumblr make me go "okay even I think this is really over complicating things."

I'm a bisexual transwoman, simple as that really. I find men attractive, I find women attractive, and I was born physically male but have identified more as a female since I was a child (and yeah things are rather confusing when these feelings arise as early as childhood, and for a while in high school my initial thought was "well maybe I just enjoy crossdressing?" but then it became clear to me it went well beyond that after speaking with an old friend of mine who also is a transwoman).

Okay maybe I'm only calling myself "simple" because that's how I see myself, but eh part of me also thinks "I'm pretty sure understanding what a bisexual transwoman is is simpler than understanding what an aroamtic demisexual bigender is."

I seriously never thought I'd be talking so much about this subject on an internet culture documentation site of all things. On one hand I like the fact I've been able to be so open about myself on here and not be demonized for it, on the other a part of me sometimes wonders if I'm one of the few trans voices on this site to actually speak on these matters. (no offense Sam but I barely ever see you in these conversations, but if you have been in them then my apologies, I must have forgotten…)

@ℝoy ❡. ℬiv
ugh
> that’s why I’m asking where the line is drawn.
copy/paste what I wrote
"The line is drawn when people try to use words to identify themselves. Labels are meant to give someone a basic idea of who you are. They are not meant to be the very definition of you. Its like the difference between saying you have a red car and saying you have a #ff0000 color car."

"If someone is interested in more about your sexuality than just hetero,bi, or homo, then you should actually explain it since a label won’t do it justice. “demi-sexual” is too much information for someone who doesn’t care about you personally, and not enough information for someone who does care."

The line is drawn when people try to be overly specific with who they are by using labels.
The only people who will care that you are "agender panromantic asexual" are people who want to know more about you, and labels aren't enough. To most people, that is far too much information.
I'll use the car example again. When someone asks what kind of car you have, you say "orange Mitsubishi eclipse", not "#ffa500 2.4l manual transition rwd mitsubishi eclipse SE".

Does that make more sense?
(edit) let me explain it a tad bit more. "orange Mitsubishi eclipse" is enough to define your car, but anything more is just technical details that is too much, unless specifically asked. Similarly, anything more than "straight, bi, gay" or "male, female, trans" is too much, unless specifically asked.

As for the labels and mental illness, yea, when people define themselves with specific labels have identity issues.
Labeling yourself isn't bad, its when you define yourself by your label. Its the difference of "I buy a lot of anime, so I guess i'm an otaku" vs "I'm an otaku, so I need to buy more anime". Its when you make decisions based on how you label yourself. A label should come naturally. If you are forcing yourself into a label, then you probably have identity issues.

Side note, this is a forum, if you disagree with someone, actually communicate. Just downvoting people without providing a reason is ridiculous and just promotes an echo chamber, which is the opposite of what forums are suppose to be.

Coming from someone who is straight/cis, I just don't care enough to try distinguishing where the line is drawn between real sexualities/gender identities and fake ones. Like I question why this is even something worth arguing over? I don't run their life, I'll leave it to their close friends/family to decide if they need mental help. I go to an art school, and as you can imagine there are a lot of people there who identify as transgener/genderfluid/pansexual/nonbinary/etc. There's probably a lot of people here with "tumblr" identities/seualities too that I don't know of. What I have learned from being in an environment like this and having close friends with some of these identities is that most of them seem happy with these identities and their identity is completely inconsequential to my life. If one of my friends were to come up to me today and say "I just wanted you to know I identify as a demisexual lithoromantic dragon" I would just respond "Oh ok, so did you wanna go get some pizza or what?" Do I believe those identities are real? Eh, maybe not, but what would be the point of telling my friend I don't think that's real and having them get mad at me over it? The only time I would get involved is if I see them harming themselves or others because of their identity, like if my dragonkin friend started setting people on fire or eating jewelery because that's what dragons do. But again, this would be if I knew them personally. If I saw someone on the internet talking about eating their mom's diamond ring, I wouldn't take it upon myself to harass a person I didn't even know and tell them they belong in a mental ward. It's just not my place to boss around strangers on the internet.

Are a lot of these gender identities/sexualities fake? Yeah, probably, but I think it's all a part of growing up and figuring yourself out. Keep in mind a lot of these people that take on these identities aren't even 18 yet. I actually don't find this a whole lot different from going through a goth phase in high school. We all want to find our place and figure out who we are, and if you have to go electro-punk-retro-goth to do it, well then just do it. And if they still identify with these genders/sexualities as they grow older, well that's just fine with me too.

Here is how my mind works it.
There are 4 genders:
Male, Female, Herm, and Agender. These are the four that show up in life around the planet.

I think when it comes to sexuality, humanity is the odd one since our consciousness and societies allow us to express ourselves differently. Sexuality can be defined as an attraction too the genitals and/or mannerisms of a specific gender.

So to me there is really only 4 sexual attractions:
Straight, Homosexual, Bisexual, and Asexual.

So an example of sexuality:
Male:
Straight – Attracted to the mannerisms and genitals of a female.
Gay – Attracted to the mannerisms and genitals of a male.
Bisexual – Attracted to the mannerisms and genitals of both Male and Female.

So a bisexual would be attracted to herms, transgenders, etc.
So for a herm they would decide which gender they most closely identify with then their sexual preference would be based upon that.

I don't conciser romantical attachments any different than a sexual one. They are distinct enough to separate but come from the same core attractions.

I like that the only characters in the picture that are white are the game's main villian and the embodiment of all evil.

> I think when it comes to sexuality, humanity is the odd one since our consciousness and societies allow us to express ourselves differently. Sexuality can be defined as an attraction too the genitals and/or mannerisms of a specific gender.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. Other animals aren't equally attracted to all males and/or females, they have preferences.