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it's amazingly appalling, disgusting and revolting how the pop media is treating israel.

a peaceful state that only tries to live a normal life and prevent it's people from being slaughtered was transformed into a demon that enjoys killing millions of innocent children for fun.

Hamas is intentionally firing rockets at civilians, but only when israel strikes back its a war crime.
Terrorists are constantly attempting to cross the border from Gaza to murder civilians, only when israel sets up blockades to prevent that its a war crime.
Hamas is willing civilians as meat shields, setting up their ammo dumbs and launching sites inside civilian complexes, yet its a war crime only when israel accidentally kills the civillians who refused to leave.

what didn't israel try, warn the inhabitants of the buildngs in advance even it it gives the terrorists ample time to escape.
set up field hospitals for injured palastians and refugees who fled form the combat zone.
cancel hundereds of airstrikes because civilians refused to evacuate terrorist-filled buildings.

nope, israel is still a demon that preys on kids and women.

no one cares we suffer hunderds of their rockets on a daily basis.
no one cares they constantly try to send terrorists out to kill random innocent people
no one cares Israel is trying to defend itself and simply prevent harm to its citizens

they only care when a a Palestinian dies, and only when its done by israel, regardless if it was intentional or if they were present on the targets on purpose

it's sickening. it's unbelievable, turning terrorist aggressors and their collaborators into martyrs, and people defending themselves as monsters.

what the hell happened to this world?

P.S don't give me bullshit about occupation, the IDF withdrew from Gaza 7 years ago, and its completely independent now. any siege or blockade there is BECAUSE of the constant missile threat and the Palestinian refusal to stop it.

Oh sweet jesus.

I am sorry Jolly Jew, you ain't going to be very jolly after the shit storm which passes in the wake of such a large opinion.

well, bring it on. i will be able how people on this site stand on the issue and perhaps understand a tiny bit of the hatred

Israel is the more powerful state. Ergo, Israel must be a bully.

Oh hi JJ. I was wondering when you'd get here.

Anyways I agree to a certain extent. If Hamas cared more about the innocent people they hide amongst than about how much they hate Israel this probably wouldn't be happening.

The minute I saw a title with no capitalization I knew this was a JJ thread and this was pretty much my reaction.

While it may be biased or unfair on Israel that does not excuse the things they have done and the same goes for the Palestinians.

And for the people who will dismiss this as a "war is stupid" argument it's not. It should be common knowledge that there is both good and evil on both sides. No one should be demonizing anyone at the moment based on what both groups have done, but at same time should not act as if one side is innocent either.

This war is a weird one. But i feel that the USA protects Israel to much and still feels guilty for WW2. I'm not saying that Israel is at fault no the Hamas are monsters en they are commiting crimes against humanity. why can't they just talk it out it's the 21st century for fuck sake the older generation has seen some shit why does this have to continue. But hey who am i im just a teenager who doesn't know any better.

the point is that neither side is in the right, but to try and claim that hamas has done nothing to deserve their treatment is bullshit

With a username and avatar like that, it's hard to tell if you're being serious or just having a laugh.

Wow, I was expecting to see the exact opposite to this opinion. I thought the opinion was going to be, "Why is it that NATO is still supportive of Israel, since every time they take any military action in Palestine there's always a fuck-tonne of civilian casualties?"

Take this article for example. A statistic quoted there is that 75% of all Palestinian deaths in this conflict have been civilians. That's beyond unacceptable.

While I completely agree that something has to be done about Hamas, you just can't justify those sorts of death tolls. And nobody's saying that Hamas is guiltless here. The international press is not letting them off for what they're doing; it's just that Israel seems to be targeting civilian centres in order to get to a small handful of combatants, even when they have the capability to perform precision strikes that aren't so costly. Yes, Hamas are intentionally killing civilians, and that's terrible, but that doesn't give a nation with a far more capable military permission to do the same.

Are you fucking serious?

Israel a peaceful state, constantly threatened by palestine attacks and living under fear, showing any form of humanity or compassion to allow palestinians to leave before attacking.

I cannot even begin to think how arrogant and brainwashed you are JJ. You honestly either must have some sort of mental disability or you are just in heavy denial to believe of the many atrocities your state has done to Palestine the past weeks.

You people want to know the truth here it is.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/08/israeli-lawmaker-calls-for-genocide-of-palestinians-gets-5000-facebook-likes/

Read this and please continue to say how peaceful Israel is.

For those who still believe that Israel has been suffering heavy attacks from Hamas and have been suffering civilian casualties, stop watching your local news. The news of the destruction of Isreal and the damages that has been caused to it are actually from Palestine, But the media is to tell it as if it is Israel who is being attacked and brutalized.

http://my.firedoglake.com/mnarmuhawesh/2014/07/17/what-the-media-is-getting-wrong-about-israel-palestine-and-why-it-matters/
I condemn both sides of firing rockets at each other, but to claim that Israeli's has been suffering more than Palestinian's is fucking disgusting.

The Israelis have even gone a far as killing journalists reporting the truth of what has been happening. They want to maximize control of the media so they can be seen as the victims trying to defend themselves while portraying the Palestinians as the aggressors.
http://electronicintifada.net/content/no-justice-murdered-journalist/7683

Open your fucking eyes KYM, and especially you Jolly Jew and realize the truth of what is actually going on. Your people are committing genocide to the Palestinians, and I have shown enough proof to back up my claims on the ugly truth about your state, though if you people are interested in finding out more, do some proper research first and get your facts straight on what is really going on. Stop trying to justify your peoples actions upon the Palestinian citizens by claiming that your trying to defend your people when you are using that as an excuse to commit murder. For fucks sake, your state even turn against its own people for standing out against the occupation by silencing them and arresting them.

Listen to this and and Please i recommend that people to watch this and other videos of the true jews who condemn Zionism and the war crimes they are commiting.

Open your minds people, educate yourselves of what is going on and learn the truth of what is really going on and end the arrogance.

NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.

please note users, despite who the OP is this is a real topic and rules will be enforced.

I don't hate israel, But what i hate is the ways they handle things, it's not good to add more to the pile, and it's not good to kill it's own people for speaking out.

Here is my opinion on this tragedy.

As some people said, this is a political matter and I believe it is. And as far as I care, both sides are assholes as there are no "right" or "wrong" in politics.

Hamas using civilians as meat shield while they keep shooting rockets to Israel. They tried to get international sympathy by showing that they are the underdog, and Israel is the big bad.

On the other side Israel are also an asshole. As JJ said, while Israel have the capabilities to reduce civilian casualties, they choose not to do so and I think they have reasons no to do that.

I am not supporting either side, because it's my personal code to uphold neutrality as far as I can.

Religion is complicated, and we live in a world where conflict is bound to happen. Like stated above, I think the best thing we can do is remain neutral and stay out of it. It's a sad situation that is only more difficult with politics, religion, and war.

@Gary

I feel that the entire conflict isn't so much rooted in religion. Although the differences in religions between Palestine and Israel does tend to the Us vs Them effect going on… It's only a small part of the picture. I feel that territorial claims are a bigger part of it. One side wants the whole region under control. So it's vastly more politcal

I concur that the only reasonable thing for the rest of the world to do now is to stay out of it. There's so much mixed reports of what the crimes are and who makes them. So much confusion. So many reports and misinformation going both ways. Nobody really knows what's going on.

Some people feel certain that everything can be blamed on one of the two sides, but the reality is that is it isn't clear at all. At least not to the international community. There's been far too much chaos, calamity and destruction coming from both sides over the years that we can no longer accurately say who's right or wrong now.

The only thing that's absolutely certain is that there is destruction among both sides. So nobody is innocent, that's all I can say

Supporting one side or the other for any reason stirs massive polarized shitstorms anywhere you go. This makes it politically impossible for any other nation to do anything about it except watch idly until somebody wins in this outcome.

It comes down to Israel and Palestines own negotiations. I wish they would just integrate as nations with a stable government that works for both arabs and jews instead of believing there can only be one. I don't care who got there first; the reality is that they are both there now and they both have to work it out together. But the hatred runs too deep for anything reasonable to happen.

What can Israel and Palestine do about their situation? What can anyone do? I don't know

@BSOD:

Unfortunately, Israel's sole existence rides on the fact that they are a state based entirely on a racial/religious identity , that is being a "Jewish" state.

A sort of "one state solution" would be preferable but that would mean a right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees which would form a majority Arab state. Something that Israelis cannot accept, much like Apartheid white African leaders.

Regarding Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. I've said this again and again but you haven't responded to me JJ.

Israel withdrew from Gaza but kept full control of Gaza's Airspace (preventing the airport in Gaza from ever re-opening), Territorial waters ( Preventing fisherman from fishing), land borders (with the exception of Rafah crossing which is administered by anti-Hamas Egyptian governments) and controls movement of people in our out of the territory.

This is considered by UN Human Rights Council, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the European Union to be occupation and still considers Gaza occupied territory.

There is no equivalence between Occupier and Occupied. Just because some native American tribes attacked American civilians did not give Americans justification for their genocide. Just because Nelson Mandela founded the Umkhonto we Sizwe (a group I might add is considered a terrorist organization) did not give the Apartheid government justification for their ethnic cleansing.

Oh and before you go ahead and resort to the age old "muh rawkets". There were no rocket attacks after Pillar of Defense:

Here's something YOUR OWN CONSUL GENERAL IN LOS ANGELES SAID:

“ For the last three months, there hasn’t been a rocket fired from Gaza , for the first time in recent memory,” he said, noting that this was partially because Israel had managed to pinpoint military targets.

http://azjewishpost.com/2013/21119/

In the Arizona Jewish Post no less.

What did Israel do during these three months with no rocket attacks?

Time and time again, Israel signs ceasefires and repeatedly is the first to break them.

"but but bu..HAMAS REJECTED A CEASEFIRE IT'S THEIR FAULT!"

First, they doesn't justify killing people indiscriminately. "But they're pinpointing their attacks to take out.." No. That excuse doesn't work. You don't have 75% civilian casualty to militant ratio and call yourself precise. You don't bomb a hospital where several foreign journalists are reporting and claim all these journalists managed to magically not notice Hamas pulling out 5 foot missiles from the hospital's basement.

Second, you don't say you offer a ceasefire without….you know talking to the person you're fighting with. That's some North Korean Kim Jong Un logic right there. You want a ceasefire? You talk to Hamas, not Egypt who has completely banned Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and anyone that has a vaguely Palestinian name. That's like if Hamas negotiated with Iran to offer a ceasefire to Israel.

Third, the Ceasefire is an insult to Gazans. It simply stated that a return to the status quo where they get bombed everyday and it is not news (as seen in the chart above) with nothing to show for the 200 killed at that point AND nothing that responds to their demands.

Fourth….It was actually Israel that turned down the ceasefire. Yes! It's true! Here's a report from the Guardian on 9TH JULY 6 DAYS BEFORE ISRAEL'S CEASEFIRE OFFER:

And in some respects that is exactly what Hamas wants: to fight a war for a ceasefire.

In its demands earlier this week for ending hostilities, it asked for the ceasefire conditions from the last major round of fighting with Israel in 2012 to be reinstated, for the re-release of prisoners freed by Israel in exchange for the kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit, who were rounded up again by Israeli after the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers, later found murdered, and an end to what it says is Israeli meddling in the Palestinian unity government.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/hamas-goes-to-war-gaza-israel-ceasefire

What was Israel's response to this reasonable ceasefire which it had already signed in 2012? To pretend it never existed.

All in all, Israel has hit 3000 targets in Gaza. I find it hard to believe 3000 or more homes, hospitals,mosques and schools had weapons hidden within them yet Hamas still manages a steady rate of fire with rockets and always had during every Israeli operation. It's almost like Israel is using the same tactic multiple times despite it's ineffectiveness at stopping rocket fire….or perhaps its effectiveness at thinning out the numbers of Ghetto non-Jews keeps this plan of attack going. I don't know.

But I'm sure that Palestianian rockets are such an existential threat to Israel, especially the poor Sderoti who live in constant terror of those barbaric Arabs out to kill them with an Arsenal of devastating rocket…

Err….woops?

There is no equivalence between occupier and occupied, colonialist and colonial, Prisoner and jailor.

The blacks in South Africa have the right to resist, Native Americans have the right to resist, Vietnamese have the right to resist…

Sure, there are no completely innocent sides in any war.

But the side that has 75% of their kills listed as civilians despite having by far the most advanced army in the region and one of the most advanced in the world is contrasted by a "terrorist" organization barely able to feed itself which 94% of its kills are listed as purely military.

You can easily decide who is more "wrong" here.

Because This thread needs to continue and do not want to retype everything I jsut said. Here is a link to what is really going on with the human shielding accusations that I posted on the comment section of the hug a terrorist video.</a

Well since Asura brought this thread back, I might as well response to the would-be troll OP.

it’s amazingly appalling, disgusting and revolting how the pop media is treating israel.

What on Earth is the pop media?

a peaceful state that only tries to live a normal life

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

prevent it’s people from being slaughtered

By slaughtering other people, now I get it.

Hamas is intentionally firing rockets at civilians

Have you seen their rockets, they’re a joke. They’re not much bigger than the rockets you would find in a kids science fair, they’re wildly inaccurate, at least 80% of them get shot down by Israel’s Iron Dome, and the ones that don’t get shot down usually land in an open area doing no damage. An army of a small nation circa 1945 would be embarrassed to have these rockets, and they’re Hamas’ only means of defense, not that I support their use of them of course, apart from small arms.

but only when israel strikes back its a war crime

Why does Israel need to strike back at all, let alone with American missiles, they have the Iron Dome. Also, attacking an UN shelter isn’t a war crime?

Terrorists are constantly attempting to cross the border from Gaza to murder civilians, only when israel sets up blockades to prevent that its a war crime

Maybe they shouldn’t have a blockade, turning the tiny Gaza strip into an outdoor prison, to begin with.

Hamas is willing civilians as meat shields

I’m constantly hearing this assertion repeated by the Israeli government, its supporters, and American Media as if it’s a well documented fact. Yet I haven’t seen one example of Hamas actively doing this. Even if it is true, then why is Israel firing missiles at them, knowing full well they’re going to kill civilians?

setting up their ammo dumbs and launching sites inside civilian complexes

Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, there’s no open space to launch rockets. Not like Hamas should be firing rockets to begin with.

yet its a war crime only when israel accidentally kills the civillians who refused to leave.

80% civilian casualty rate is no accident. Also, refused to leave? They have nowhere to go, they’re fenced in!

what didn’t israel try, warn the inhabitants of the buildngs in advance

They literally ‘warn’ them by firing a missile at them.

set up field hospitals for injured palastians and refugees who fled form the combat zone.

[Citation needed]

cancel hundereds of airstrikes because civilians refused to evacuate terrorist-filled buildings.

[Citation needed] Also, woopty-fucking-doo. They shouldn’t be conducting airstrikes to begin with.

Israel is trying to defend itself

By being the aggressor? That’s the exactly opposite of defending yourself.

don’t give me bullshit about occupation, the IDF withdrew from Gaza 7 years ago, and its completely independent now.

Blatant lie, the Gaza Strip is still fenced in, Palestinians are not allowed to leave except under certain circumstances, Gaza is not allowed to have a standing army, not allowed to have industry, not allowed to export, and barely any food or water is allowed to enter. If this isn’t an occupation, then what is?

Jesus fucking christ.

'Electronic Intifada'

It's shit like this which makes me Pro-Isreal to begin with and infuriates me with no end.

The last time a uprising happened, what exactly did it solve? Oh right. More violence for both sides, suicide bombings, and the Israelites being given the extremely legitimate reason to not abandon paranoia against arabs because ya know, suicide bombers don't exactly say "welcome to the Middle east" enough.

I never will claim I am 100% for Israel, because even I know that they have done some pretty despicable things, and that a settlement policy of theirs is at the heart of the problem, along with Palestinian political violence. However calling Israel the 'real terrorists' is just fucking retarded, because ya know, they don't purposefully seek to exterminate or kill civilians, regardless of how reckless and uncaring they tend to be about it, unlike Hamas whom makes it a habit of killing civilians and virtually enslaving their own people for their own extreme ends.

Also, saying this is a genocide is blatant embellishing. Civilian death always happens in war – and usually to a much worse degree. With that considered and how there's been little more than 1000 civilian casualties within a few weeks of violence in an extremely densely populated area, it's more wrong to me than anything to be honest that so much of the focus on this conflict of all conflicts is on the civilian cost. While civilian death is always awful it's right there in the numbers that Israel is making much more of an effort to keep the body count low than people are giving them credit for.

Jesus fucking christ.

‘Electronic Intifada’

It’s shit like this which makes me Pro-Isreal to begin with and infuriates me with no end.

EI has been quoted and referenced by organizations such as CNN and MSNBC and it's chief editor, Ali Abunimah is a frequent guest on debates on nearly every major news channel (He was just on CNN today).

But of course, ignore the 91 PALESTINIAN CIVIL LEADERS THAT SIGNED THAT DOCUMENT.

You conveniently dodged having to enter into any sort of debate in the same fashion as a child plugging their ears and saying "CAN'T HEAR YOU NANANANANA"

he last time a uprising happened, what exactly did it solve?.

I'm glad you asked that question!

The 1970 War of Attrition and the 1973 Yom Kippur War returned Israel to the negotiating table and earned Egypt the entirety of the Sinai back (with conditions).

The First Intifada lead to the 1993 Oslo accords where Israel agreed to recognize the Palestinian Authority.

The Second Intifada led to Israel's partial pull out of Gaza.

Resistance in South Lebanon lead to Israel completely.

The pattern is clear. Israel will never offer concessions if it ever feels in a position of power.

I never will claim I am 100% for Israel, because even I know that they have done some pretty despicable things, and that a settlement policy of theirs is at the heart of the problem, along with Palestinian political violence.

One of the bolded things is a problem. The other is a symptom, not a problem.

However calling Israel the ‘real terrorists’ is just fucking retarded, because ya know, they don’t purposefully seek to exterminate or kill civilians,

Yet they seem to be very very very good it at.

Saying "I'm NOT trying to kill civilians" doesn't mean its true.

unlike Hamas whom makes it a habit of killing civilians and virtually enslaving their own people for their own extreme ends.

"virtually enslaving". Oh dear….Slavery is in this now? How exactly are Hamas "enslaving" their people. Are they forcing them to work for no pay? Whipping them into constructing deadly weapons of terror?

No?

Then here's a hint: They're not enslaving them. That's the literal definition of Slavery.

But of course, you don't give two shits about the Palestinians considering you won't even read a statement by 91 of their civil leaders from Gaza because you don't like the name of a website.

I'm guessing you're trying in your own convoluted way you're trying to say Human shields.

Since you won't listen to brown people, Here's some white people:

Amnesty International wrote:

Amnesty International is aware of these claims, and continues to monitor and investigate reports, but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks.

Iamslow wrote:

While civilian death is always awful it’s right there in the numbers that Israel is making much more of an effort to keep the body count low than people are giving them credit for.

Israel: 181 combatants killed out of a total 1373 total killed= 13% combatant to civilian ratio
Hamas: 63 combatants killed out of a total 66 killed= 95% combatant to civilian ratio

While civilian death is always awful it’s right there in the numbers that Hamas is making much more of an effort to keep the body count low than people are giving them credit for.

Next time, please respond to my points above rather than regurgitating Israeli talking points.

I've been posting in these threads for nigh on three years and I nearly never get replies.

@Chickenhound the Cruel and Iamslow

Here is a link to an article confirming that Israel is guilty of Ethnic cleansing and Apartheid, from the UN

Here is a link I am re-posting because this alone is enough proof you need to confirm that Israel is committing Genocide on the Palestinians. They say it directly and openly instead of hiding behind curtains.

Please continue to ignore the facts and continue rambling on without providing any sources of proof to back up your statements.

>CNN
>MNSBC

Yea, because a Palestine only site is such a paragon of truth, said so by the paragons of truth themselves, the fucking CNN and of course my all time favorite, MNSBC, two news sources who's reports make my sources at Fox News look like saints of the holy truth itself.

>Me not being aware of the 1st Infitala

Yea, because those uprising were such a big fucking success. You are a piece of work Phoenix if you really fucking think the only way to get Palestinians their lands back is through blowing themselves up, and it truly is fucking sickening. The only thing those uprisings did was give Israel it's reason to distrust the Palestinians even more in their second little show.

>Political violence isn't a problem, evil jew settlers are

Ohh boy

Yea, because settlements are only the problem, it wasn't the fucking first war which led to their exodus of Palestinians from the region or the continued violence and disruption of life and constant war, it was all because of the jews.

Give me a fucking break.

>Implying Israel purposefully targets civilians

Ya, because obviously the jew only cares about killing Palestinian children to feast on his muslim blood. Its not like they have a professional military whom are trained killers, like all militaries whom go in a break shit, and it's not like I already implied that the Israeli army tends to reckless, and it's not like I said I don't agree with them 100% of the fucking time.

>Implying Hamas doesn't have complete and tyrannical control over the Gaza Strip

You do realize the Gaza strip was given over to the fucking Palestinians to self govern themselves, and the first fucking thing they do is elect a terror faction as their main head. So frankly, I wouldn't take 9100 paragons saints of the Palestinians seriously if they worked for the fucking government in that place. You do realize that when Isreal sent word they were going to bomb people front to back, their government in the Strip said "No no, stay in yer homes mates!"

Not to mention Hamas using UN schools to store their weapons. What nice guys. It's not like their spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said he like the tactic and encouraged it's use. It's not like the IDF admits they used human shields in the past and banned it in a high court of Israel and condone the practice.

I do respond to your points, but the problem is I know perfectly well what you are going to do. You are going to deny I played along with your set points, then defend that notion repeatedly till I drop dead or everyone is gone from the forum. I don't exactly fucking care if you have been posting in these threads for over a thousand years because thats a pretty fucking low accomplishment. If you think winning some internet argument is some kind of game, then frankly saying I'd pity you to the point of prayer.

You know he is jolly.

[explosive puns]

@Chickenhound the Cruel

Okay, first off, where is the proof of Hamas storing rockets and weapons inside these buildings. It is so easy for people to say such simple accusations while not showing any form of sitation to confirm them. Either show proof of them storing weapons in these places or change the fucking record.

Second, even if they do have weapons in these places, which I know they do not do, YOU DO NOT BOMB A FUCKING SCHOOL OR HOSPITAL WITH INNOCENT PEOPLE IN IT. PERIOD.

There is no fucking excuse in the world to drop bombs and tank shells at a hospital or a school, no matter what. It is against international law for any military organization to attack any civilian sanctuary. You can continue to say that they have a reason to attack those places all you want, but the fact still stands that you do not attack a hospital or School that is filled with unarmed civilians trying to seek shelter. No fucking excuse.

Third, look at these following videos to see what is really going on through the eyes of the Israeli soldiers who speak out against the atrocities they have done to the people of Palestine.

Through their stories, they reveal what they have been doing to the people of Palestine, who do not deserve to continue living in an open prison.

Have a goddamn heart for the people who have been suffering for decades no thanks to the Zionist state of Israel who steal everything from them.

Do not fucking say I do not have a fucking heart.

You think I like to support Israel? You think I support a majority of their actions? Do you think me fucking dense?!

Do you think I do not do my own research ? Do you think me to be some fucking idiot to not know that Israel isn't the most legitimate nation?!

I support Israel because people like you are fucking blind the sword cuts both ways. I will not support a campaign of terror against innocents Israelites because you are to fucking blind to see it, like what happened in the second Intifada. I will not support a people whom praise the death of Israelites so openly and so arrogantly. I will never support such blatant horror that kind of evil brings out.

Never for the sake of the lord thy god call me heartless because I don't fucking support your god damn opinion on the matter.

Thank you. THANK YOU. someone finally shows me proof of something. That is all I asked, proof for such accusations, which most people do not do. And for that, I apologize for calling you heartless and take that remark back.

All that I just want out of this whole conflict is for the freedom and independence for Palestine and its people who knows nothing but suffering from the years of occupation. Is that so much to ask for for them?

I always try to be unbiased, really do, I try and find the good and bad of both sides of the conflict but when you deal with people who just make accusations and not show any form of evidence and just try and make us believe what they say,it makes it so much more difficult.

So yah, thank you.

>CNN
>MNSBC

Yea, because a Palestine only site is such a paragon of truth, said so by the paragons of truth themselves, the fucking CNN and of course my all time favorite, MNSBC, two news sources who’s reports make my sources at Fox News look like saints of the holy truth itself.

Go to Electronic Intifada's site. Try to debate their points.

You don't. You come in here and say Fox News is somehow better than any news organization not called North Korean state TV.

You're just putting your head in the sand and refusing to debate points by saying such silly things.

>Me not being aware of the 1st Infitala

Yea, because those uprising were such a big fucking success. You are a piece of work Phoenix if you really fucking think the only way to get Palestinians their lands back is through blowing themselves up, and it truly is fucking sickening. The only thing those uprisings did was give Israel it’s reason to distrust the Palestinians even more in their second little show.

I provided several examples on when the use of force has compelled Israel into the negotating table. We've seen it first hand, you said it yourself: The settlements are an issue and Israel has done nothing to stop them despite a large amount of pleas from Mahmoud Abass's government. Israel has sought every single method to block the Palestinians at the United Nations.

The message is clear "We own the debate. We will dictate what we want and you will obey."

You have not provided any examples of Israel handing things over via negotiations.

Oh, and I never said anything about Suicide bombing. Thanks for putting that in my mouth.

There hasn't been a suicide bombing in years and Hamas no longer uses that tactic.

>Political violence isn’t a problem, evil jew settlers are

Ohh boy

Yea, because settlements are only the problem, it wasn’t the fucking first war which led to their exodus of Palestinians from the region or the continued violence and disruption of life and constant war, it was all because of the jews.

And….you're trying to prove something here? The first war was against…..who? Settler Jews. Who exiled the Palestinians? Settler Jews. Who is the violence aimed at? Settler Jews who forced them off the land?

Or are you implying the Palestinians fought themselves, exiled themselves and have meaningless wars somewhere not in their homeland?

Palestinian political violence would not exist if there was no one to attack them.

>Implying Israel purposefully targets civilians

Ya, because obviously the jew only cares about killing Palestinian children to feast on his muslim blood. Its not like they have a professional military whom are trained killers, like all militaries whom go in a break shit, and it’s not like I already implied that the Israeli army tends to reckless, and it’s not like I said I don’t agree with them 100% of the fucking time.

Wow, it's not like any army in the world has ever intentionally attacked civilians in a manner to inflict genocide or ethnic cleansing. Nope, as long as a military has "trained" killers, they are completely immune from ever targeting civilians.

And I don't need to >imply. A say it straight and with fucking sources:

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel explained:

In the beginning of October 2008, the Commanding Officer of the IDF’s Northern Command, Maj. General Gadi Eisenkott, gave an interview to Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper, in which he unveiled what he called the “Dahiye Doctrine”: ‘What happened in the Dahiye Quarter of Beirut in 2006, will happen in every village from which shots are fired on Israel. We will use disproportionate force against it and we will cause immense damage and destruction. From our point of view these are not civilian villages but military bases. This is not a recommendation, this is the plan, and it has already been authorized.’ According the Dahiye Doctrine, Israel will achieve deterrence not by attacking individual rocket launchers, but rather by using disproportionate force which will influence the behaviour of its opponents… According to the doctrine, massive destruction is a necessary element for creating deterrence. The damage must be done not only to military installations, or explained by concrete military necessity, but must include civilian infrastructure so that reconstruction will be expensive and time consuming

The Goldstone Report on the last war "Cast Lead":

810. In reviewing the above incidents the Mission found in every case that the Israeli armed
forces had carried out direct intentional strikes against civilians. The only exception is the
shelling of the Abu Halima family home, where the Mission does not have sufficient information
on the military situation prevailing atthe time to reach a conclusion.

>Implying Hamas doesn’t have complete and tyrannical control over the Gaza Strip

You do realize the Gaza strip was given over to the fucking Palestinians to self govern themselves, and the first fucking thing they do is elect a terror faction as their main head. So frankly, I wouldn’t take 9100 paragons saints of the Palestinians seriously if they worked for the fucking government in that place. You do realize that when Isreal sent word they were going to bomb people front to back, their government in the Strip said “No no, stay in yer homes mates!”

>Implying having control=slavery.

You said slavery. You said it straight up. Don't use the fucking word when that's not what it means. By your definition: I, burning_phoneix, am a virtual slave because I live in an autocratic society.

You implied human shields: LITERALLY EVERYONE SAYS THIS IS NOT TRUE: HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, WESTERN REPORTERS ON THE GROUND, PALESTINIANS IN GAZA THEMSELVES.

And way not to prove you haven't read the dam letter at all. BECAUSE NONE OF THE 91 SIGNATORIES HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HAMAS! ELECTRONIC INTIFADA IS A UNITED STATES BASED PUBLICATION THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HAMAS!

Here are some examples:

-Mona El-Farra, Vice President and Health Chair of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society
-Ramy Abdu PhD, Chairman of the Euro-mid Observer
-Ali Alnazli, Businessman
-Adel Awadallah, Head of the Scientific Research Council
-Hanine Hassan, Graduate Research Assistant
-Sheren Awad, Journalist
-Deya’a Kahlout, Journalist, Al-Araby newspaper
-Fadel Naeim, Chairman of Palestine Physicians Syndicate
-Donia ElAmal Ismail, Head of the Creative Women Association
-Zeinab Alghonemi, Head of Women for Legal Consulting Association
-Amjad AlShawa, Palestinian Nongovernmental Organizations Network (PNGO)
-Mohsen Abo Ramadan, Head of Palestinian Nongovernmental Organziations Network (PNGO)

I do respond to your points, but the problem is I know perfectly well what you are going to do.

No, you don't really read my posts at all. Because if you did, you would see I answered your "Israel gives Gaza to the Palestinians and they repay them with Hamas election!" in my very first post….I put that in every single thread that JJ starts whenever Nentanyahu feels he needs a boost at the polls.

You don't even read my sources as evidenced here:

You do realize that when Isreal sent word they were going to bomb people front to back, their government in the Strip said “No no, stay in yer homes mates!”

The Amnesty International report cites it straight away:

During the current hostilities, Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. However, in light of the lack of clarity in many of the Israeli warnings on safe routes for civilians to evacuate, the lack of shelters or other safe places in the Gaza Strip for them to go to, and numerous reports of civilians who did heed the warnings and flee doing so under Israeli fire, such statements by Hamas officials could have been motivated by a desire to avoid further panic. In any case, public statements referring to entire areas are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as “human shields” for fighters, munitions, or military equipment. Furthermore, international humanitarian law is clear that even if officials or fighters from Hamas or Palestinian armed groups associated with other factions did in fact direct civilians to remain in a specific location in order to shield military objectives from attacks, all of Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.

So…

Do you think I do not do my own research ?

Yes.

(to be continued in nxt post)

Not to mention Hamas using UN schools to store their weapons.

Hamas places weapons in two (2) VACANT schools that were not in use due to disrepair. UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) did a check on these schools and requested that Hamas remove the munitions from these sites, Hamas obliged.

I do not condone the use of any UN or other Human rights/relief organization site as locations to store weapons.

However, the UN states that:

-More than 9,000 homes in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed
-Two of the three main UN compounds have been damaged
-24 medical facilities have been damaged or destroyed
-More than 130 schools have sustained damage
-The fuel tank of Gaza's only power plant was struck

No evidence whatsoever was provided for any of these attacks to prove that they stored weapons.

You are going to deny I played along with your set points, then defend that notion repeatedly till I drop dead or everyone is gone from the forum.

I place historical evidence that Israel doesn't concede anything without force. You don't reply with any evidence at all but instead call me a "piece of work".

I posted proof that Hamas did not break the Ceasefires. You didn't even respond.

You also said Fox News was somehow more credible than CNN.

You implied that Hamas uses Palestinians as "human shields". I provided several sources that prove that isn't true. You posted a wikipedia link of Hamas banning some books and making women wear Hijabs. Where…this happened:

Some of the Islamization efforts met resistance. When Palestinian Supreme Court Justice Abdel Raouf Al-Halabi ordered women lawyers to wear headscarves and caftans in court, attorneys contacted satellite television stations including Al Arabiya to protest, causing Hamas’s Justice Ministry to cancel the directive.[8]

or this?

In March 2010, Hamas tried to impose a ban on women receiving salon treatment from male hairdressers, issuing orders by Interior Minister Fathi Hammad and threatening offenders with arrest and trial. The group backed down after an outcry

Look at these terrifying Jihadis! They can't even get some lawyers to wear Hijabs in court! They can't stand up to the power of the mail hairdressers!

You think I like to support Israel? You think I support a majority of their actions? Do you think me fucking dense?!

Like you said:

If you think winning some internet argument is* some kind of game, then frankly saying I’d pity you to the point of prayer.*

This isn't a game. You clearly do not do it for your amusement, Israel isn't paying you. Israel isn't going to be grateful for your help. Why do it then? You'd forgive us if we think you like to support Israel.

I support Israel because people like you are fucking blind the sword cuts both ways. I will not support a campaign of terror against innocents Israelites because you are to fucking blind to see it, like what happened in the second Intifada. I will not support a people whom praise the death of Israelites so openly and so arrogantly. I will never support such blatant horror that kind of evil brings out.

Never for the sake of the lord thy god call me heartless because I don’t fucking support your god damn opinion on the matter.

Hmmm…..

I support South Africa because people like you are fucking blind the sword cuts both ways. I will not support a campaign of terror by Umkhonto we Sizwe against innocents White South Africansbecause you are to fucking blind to see it, like what happened in Rhodesia. I will not support a people whom praise the death of South Africans so openly and so arrogantly. I will never support such blatant horror that kind of evil brings out.

Never for the sake of the lord thy god call me heartless because I don’t fucking support your god damn opinion on the matter.

(Implying we ever praised the death of Israelis).

This game is fun, let's go again!

I support Manifest Destiny because people like you are fucking blind the sword cuts both ways. I will not support a campaign of terror by The Injun against innocents Americans because you are to fucking blind to see it, like what happened in Tecumseh's War. I will not support a people whom praise the death of Americans so openly and so arrogantly. I will never support such blatant horror that kind of evil brings out.

Never for the sake of the lord thy god call me heartless because I don’t fucking support your god damn opinion on the matter.

That you attempt to equate 1300 civilian deaths with 3 civilian deaths just shows how wrong you are on the side of history.

The South African Blacks killed some white South African innocents but that did not make Apartheid any more right.

The Native Americans killed some White American innocents but that did not make Manifest destiny and the Reservations any more right.

The Aborigines killed some British innocents but that did not make the Frontier Wars any more right.

The sword swings both ways indeed….but it's a single edged blade.

I should be sorry myself. I often tend to be less then loving when it comes to these kind of debates. . . .and also from the down votes there tends to be unpopular opinion of me. I don't mean to get into debates here.

Look, I wish well for the Palestinians, I really do, but it becomes hard to feel sorry for them and all that death when the very reason why all these problems happened is when they were allowed self-rule to begin with. The Gaza Strip was formed because Israel wanted a small nation in which the Palestinians could deal with so they could rule themselves, pulling out settlers and all the what not.

The problem was that Hamas violently took over the strip in 2007, which I must agree with Israel that it gives them good reason to blockade a region. Hamas tends to smuggle in a lot of their weapons from Saudi Arabia. While the Israelites are lucky to have the Iron Dome defense system, it hasn't deterred Hamas whom purposefully aim at civilian centers. This current conflict is mostly to destroy those weapons and the tunnels which Hamas hides, along with missile launchers. Many of the civilian casualties tend to come from stubborn Palestinians not wishing to leave, and from mostly very reckless Israeli forces.

I am certain Israel wants to leave the Palestinians alone, but 50 years of war doesn't exactly make a very peaceful nation. Israel has dealt with almost every single neighbor so far, including it's sister state of Jordan. From my perspective, Israel is in a constant state of paranoia, and often suffers from threats of war, threats of genocide, and eventually just war itself. Trying to live as a normal western state which one's grandparents were kicked to or settled to after surviving WW2 with every neighbor threatening to put your head on a spike doesn't exactly make Israel very open for international law (especially since the UN likes to taunt them more then take action and Israel's government doesn't tend to listen since the UN is so incredibly incompetent. Don't know why Palestinians approach the UN first instead say a larger western power for aid).

The other problem is how the State of Israel refuses to recognize Hamas, and how Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist. Both states want nothing more to wipe each other from the face of the earth, but I side with Israel on that issue. Hamas's rule of the strip was nothing more short of enslavement of their own people, taking over all newspapers, eliminating christians, and all manner of tyranny was brought in. Hamas basically took whatever government the Palestinians had built up for themselves and chucked it over a cliff, using the small state bring in heavy armaments for themselves. Israel responded to this violently, and recklessly.

Hopefully, Hamas is crippled enough for Fatah to return to power in the region, despite my hatred of socialists, and return the people their government republic.

i find it odd how Hamas is saying that Israel is always the one that starts shit, and then proceeds to kill 2 soldiers and kidnap another during a cease-fire.

I will reply to Chickenhound in a while but I will respond to this.

This is from a report of the Gaurdian's website:

After a night of heavy bombardment, shelling continued in the Gaza Strip and rocket fire from Hamas hit Israel minutes before the ceasefire began at 8am on Friday local time. An Israeli army spokesman said it was looking into reports four Palestinians were killed and 15 wounded by tank fire nearly two hours after the truce began.

Link here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/israel-gaza-agree-72-hour-ceasefire-us-un

This also came from UN Sec Gen Ban Ki Moon about the ceasfire in the same article:

In a joint statement on Thursday evening the UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, and the US secretary of state, John Kerry, said the ceasefire would give “innocent civilians a much-needed reprieve from violence”. The pause would allow Gaza’s civilians to “bury the dead, care for the injured, and restock food supplies”, they said. Repairs would also be made to water and power infrastructure damaged in the 24 days of conflict, which has killed 1,400 Palestinians, mostly civilians.

However, “forces on the ground will remain in place”, meaning Israel had succeeded in its insistence that its troops continue to search for and destroy Hamas tunnels during any humanitarian pause.

Look at that last paragraph. Israel retains the right to continue military operations during any ceasefire.

That is bullshit.

In fact, remember the old 4 hour ceasefire from a few days ago?

Here is a link to a TIME magazine article:

http://time.com/3057517/israel-humanitarian-ceasefire-gaza-hamas/

An Israeli airstrike on a busy market in Gaza has killed at least 15 and wounded 150 others, the Associated Press reports.

The strike occurred during a four-hour humanitarian cease-fire,which occurred between 3pm and 7pm local time, in the Gaza Strip.* The market is situated within Shejaiya, an area which Israel said wasn’t protected by the parameters of its cease-fire.*

A Gaza healthy ministry official, Ashraf al-Kidra, told the AP the Gazans shopping in the market believed they were protected.

In a statement released before the cease-fire, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said that the humanitarian window would “not apply to the areas in which IDF soldiers are currently operating” -- among which is Shejaiya.

Bolded are the relevant parts.

Israel reserves the right to strike and attack during cease-fires while still calling them "ceasefires".

I've read some of your articles here and there; I was only refering to the deaths in the current campaign against Hamas. I know better than to try to defend a good…well, majority of Israel's other actions.

@Burning Pheoneix

I realize it looks bad percentage wise but it typically does in modern war. 77% of the Casualties in the Iraq war were civilian, NATO wasn't exactly careful when they bombed Serbia into submission in 99, ect… Urban warfare is messy.

While civilian death is always awful it’s right there in the numbers that Hamas is making much more of an effort to keep the body count low than people are giving them credit for.

But implying Hamas is doing less damage to civilians than the IDF – when they could have used all that concrete they poured into reinforcing their little sneak attack tunnels into Israel to build more shelters for their own people? No. Hamas put their ability to ineffectively attack Israel out of what really amounts to little more than spite above their own people's safety.

I'm done with this now.

Spoiler alert: Israel and Palestine are both assholes who have their share of war crimes. If you think only one nation is at fault then you're not seeing the whole picture.

And of course, being the United States, we have to stick our dicks where it doesn't belong because we feel like the world answers to us.

But implying Hamas is doing less damage to civilians than the IDF – when they could have used all that concrete they poured into reinforcing their little sneak attack tunnels into Israel to build more shelters for their own people? No. Hamas put their ability to ineffectively attack Israel out of what really amounts to little more than spite above their own people’s safety.

I’m done with this now.

9000 homes have been destroyed in the Gaza Strip.

Hamas does not use concrete or cement in the majority of their tunnels.

Cement has been banned from entering the Gaza strip for years.

Reconstruction materials. Amnesty International and other organisations report that cement, glass, steel, bitumen, wood, paint, doors, plastic pipes, metal pipes, metal reinforcement rods, aggregate, generators, high voltage cables and wooden telegraph poles are high priority reconstruction materials currently with no or highly limited entry into Gaza through official crossings.[19] A UN report by Kevin M. Cahill said reconstruction was halted because of lack of steel, cement or glass, among other building materials.[15]

THE UNITED NATIONS CAN NOT BUILD HOMES FOR THESE PEOPLE. How will Hamas do it?

But implying Hamas is doing less damage to civilians than the IDF – when they could have used all that concrete they poured into reinforcing their little sneak attack tunnels into Israel to build more shelters for their own people?

This is victim blaming 101.

Israel killed those civilians. Israel dropped a bomb on them. Israel pulled the trigger. Israel is solely responsible for their deaths.

No amount of reinforced concrete will stop a Paveway bomb dropped by an F-16.

1400 Palestinian Civilians killed. 3 Israeli civilians killed (Actually 2. One was a Thai worker).

No amount of blame shifting, no amount of references to other "careless" wars and no amount of victim blaming will ever change the fact.

Israeli bombs killed 1400 civilians.Palestinian rockets killed 2 Israelis. Seeing that the percentage is so lopsided, you attempted to shift some of the blame of the massive 1400 onto the other side to find a balance which does not exist.

Spoiler alert: Israel and Palestine are both assholes who have their share of war crimes. If you think only one nation is at fault then you’re not seeing the whole picture.

This is a false equivalence. Israel is the strongest military in the Middle East and one of the strongest in the world with billions of dollars of military spending compared to an organization that hasn't paid its employees in over 6 months.

One side has a far greater number of war crimes on its plate than the other.

Were the Blacks in South Africa assholes for forming the Umkhonto we Sizwe (A terrorist group cofounded by Nelson Mandela?) and attacking whites?

Were the Vietnamese assholes for forming the Viet Minh and later the Viet Cong and attacking non-communist Vietnamese, French and Americans?

I'm still gonna reply to you Chickenhound, but probably not today.

Yes. Right. Because Israel was never attacked by any of its neighbors ever. Nope.

I'm not implying that Israel isn't a big bully in the sandbox, but if you're trying to advocate the idea that Palestine is as pure as the wind-swept snow in the entire history of the Arab-Israeli conflict then you're just being naive.

You can call me "moderate man" all you like but the fact is that I don't like my government wasting money on another nation's squabbles, especially when we have so many problems here.. Both Israel and Palestine can kill each other to their hearts' content without our help.

I don't think that's is what they are trying to say. Both doing wrong does not mean that makes them equal. He is saying how disproportionate the bad things Israel has done in comparison. People are aware both sides have done horrible shit but it's who should be held responsible and what punishments if any the sides deserve.

Also the worst thing is "well it is not our problem argument". Firstly imagine a hypothetical situation like say the U.S has a dictatorship get established or something pretty evil. And the bad guys in the situation severely crush any resistance or whatever and it is fucked. It's then not the rest of the worlds problem.

And even if that never arises you are saying that the problems the U.S face are really so bad that you should ignore the thousands of people suffering out there. Your problems are so bad it makes the middle eastern conflict look like a joke? "Both Israel and Palestine can kill each other to their hearts’ content without our help." look at what you have said. People here aren't arguing who should wipe out who we are debating what should be done considering what both sides have to say.

I hate that, I really hate that. I hate it when people try to play everything as 50/50; I'm looking at you, CNN. It's just like the so-called "debate" on Climate Change. "One side says this, the other side says this". No, one side has over 97% of the scientific community, including former skeptics who changed their minds when presented with the evidence and the other side has corporate shills and idiots!

Yeah, ”Both Israel and Palestine can kill each other”, but one nation has a lot easier time doing it. One nation is allowed to have a military force. One nation is allowed to have industry. One nation has the backing of the most powerful nation on Earth. One nation isn't purposely left in a permanent state of near-collapse. One nation isn't an open prison. One nation isn't occupied.

It would preferable if you didn't.

You seem far to strung up on proving the innocence of the Palestinians that it comes off as completely hostile, especially in the last comment you gave me. You suspect me to believe a american website which if not by the name itself incites bias, you defend your points radically and make issues over points not addressed, and then attacked my lacking sources rather disgustingly.

You glazed over the complete tyrannical control of the Gaza Strip, with not only dress codes but also the murder of the Christian woman and the complete removal of any form of media which isn't approved by Islamic censors. Your mocking of my little rant was also something to be rather repulsive all on it's own, and take the violent deaths of both early american settlers and south african farmers so unimaginably lightly.

For the sake of leaving me the fuck out this hole of cancer this thread is, it would be preferable you didn't pull me back in for a foul mood.

In my experience, the debates on this topic make everyone who take part in them- whether they argue for Israel, Palestine or even if they throw out the golden mean fallacy- look kind of like a bunch of jabbering idiots. That's why I like the way that Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert tackle the topic so much. Essentially, they jokingly tug at their shirt collars and laugh nervously a the fact that they're having to show such horrible stuff on what's supposed to be a comedy program, while backhandedly acknowledging that if they made a statement with any sort of real opinion behind it they'd be tossed in the metaphorical garbage disposal. And to be honest, that's really how I look at it too: I just take a step back and say to myself "man, aren't we in a world of shit", because really, what the fuck can I do about it?

"And even if that never arises you are saying that the problems the U.S face are really so bad that you should ignore the thousands of people suffering out there. Your problems are so bad it makes the middle eastern conflict look like a joke?"

The United States is not supposed to be baby-sitting other nations. We tried to "help" the Middle East for over a decade and that didn't exactly pan out very well.

You want to help them out so badly? Start a charity. Don't waste taxpayer dollars on shit that doesn't concern us.

"People here aren’t arguing who should wipe out who we are debating what should be done considering what both sides have to say."

Both sides consist of this:
Israel: "FUCK PALESTINE!"
Palestine: "FUCK ISRAEL!"

"Babysitting". It's the fact that you consider trying to stop death of thousands of innocents babysitting. Maybe if people like you did't lack empathy and stopped debating stupid issues like whether guns are bad (because that's the bigger issue, right?) you would not only see the benefits of helping other countries become stable and at peace, but get your heads together to actually resolve the issues instead of dragging them out. While you're at it you could get off your high horse and get rid of that sense of superiority.

To say that both people who support a particular nation is just shouting fuck the other is more stupid than the argument you claim is just flinging vulgarities.

Like every argument (including the "really important" U.S issues) there is going to be people who are too biased and ignorant. The people here are trying to provide evidence so that we can debate what can be done to resolve this issue.

"It's the fact that you consider trying to stop the death of thousands of innocents babysitting."

Because, you know, the United States did such a cracker-jack job trying to "stop the deaths of thousands of innocents" in Iraq and Afghanistan. Putting aside the deaths of United States soldiers, how many civilians died? At least over 100,000? How about Desert Storm? Or maybe the Korean war? Or the Vietnam war?

"You would not only see the benefits of helping other countries become stable and at peace…"

Oh, please. Tell me the benefits. I'm dying to know. Would it make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside if I donated all my money to some third world country instead of giving it to some guy on the street?

"To say that both people who support a particular nation is just shouting fuck the other is more stupid than the argument you claim is just flinging vulgarities."

Apparently you haven't been on the Internet for very long then.

Please take your-bleeding heart mentality and bury it in your backyard. The founding fathers warned us against having foreign alliances. They were right all along. If you think that the world is going to hold-hands and sing Kumbayah then you really need to grow up fast.

My opinion on Israel is that I have no opinion. The thing that started it all was when the big European nations tore apart the Middle East and started arranging everything as they saw fit with no regard to the consequences. They should have cleaned up the mess back then, but since they didn't, the Israel-Palestine situation is what it is. I've tried to educate myself multiple times using multiple sources and looked at both sides, but I just can't come to a conclusion on who is "right". The topic is so full of misinformation and bias and no one has any answers and are usually only willing to point fingers. Honestly, both sides have been assholes. No one is innocent.

Also, I sort of doubt the OP's objectiveness on the topic considering the username and all that. I have not met one Jew in my entire life who hasn't had a Pro-Israel viewpoint. However, I'm not really going to try to hold it against him, but it still is a possibility.

Duke Crabtree said:

The founding fathers warned us against having foreign alliances.

Actually, Washington warned us about "entangling" alliances, like the kind that made WW1 the clusterfuck it was. Don't forget, we had a treaty with France during the Revolutionary War, got one with the Spanish soon after, and strengthened our relations with the British by the 1830s.

The big divide between the Federalists and Democrat-Republicans in 1800 was over whether we should be allied with the British or the French.

Thank you history man.

You're playing semantics. Washington warned about foreign alliances because Europe was full of entangling alliances. He also warned about permanent alliances. (Israel? South Korea? Hello?)

Here's the entire video since you didn't want to post it (btw, it's from 2012)