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God fucking dammit facebook. I honestly do not know what to say or believe anymore. I am just gonna stay away from here for a bit so I can get my sources straightened out. Now I feel like a jackass.

Context and reliable sources are key, Asura. Also, thank you for providing the actual video, Duke. Now with that said, Netanyahu and Hillary Clinton are full of shit, but I guess that goes without saying.

Edit: Dammit, Asura…

Chickenhound wrote:

It would preferable if you didn’t.
(…)For the sake of leaving me the fuck out this hole of cancer this thread is, it would be preferable you didn’t pull me back in for a foul mood.

I do not pull you in or drag you in. I simply respond to your posts on the internet.

Nobody forces you to read this thread but yourself.

You glazed over the complete tyrannical control of the Gaza Strip, with not only dress codes but also the murder of the Christian woman and the complete removal of any form of media which isn’t approved by Islamic censors.

Please provide sources to how tyrannical the control of Hamas is. I did not glaze over it. From your wikipedia link (a very weak source btw) I showed that Hamas could not enforce Hijabs in their own courtrooms and could not force the handful of male hair dressers to stop serving women.

Also, it goes to show how you do not even read your own sources. A Palestinian Christian MAN was killed. As in…in the entire history of Hamas rule in Gaza. And it was not done by Hamas.

From Haaretz:

In the women's mourning room on the tenth floor, Pauline's sister-in-law, Madeleine, pinches her black T-shirt.

"We can't go out like this anymore," she says.

But she emphasizes that Hamas is not the problem, that they haven't done anything to curb the Christians' freedom or the rights of the minorities. The problem is ordinary people who think that harassing Christians will please the leaders, and religious extremists who feel that their opinions have gained legitimacy after the Islamic movement's rise to power.
(…)
"Do you think the murderers will be caught?"

"Of course. Hamas doesn't like this either."

Ismail Haniyeh has condemned the murder, and several leaders from Hamas have visited the mourning tent and promised that the perpetrators will be caught and punished. Mahmoud Abbas also sent a delegation. Gaza has had enough of internal strife. The last thing it needs is for relations between the religious communities to deteriorate.

Bolded the relevant parts.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/i-know-how-to-make-you-a-muslim-1.232309

Your mocking of my little rant was also something to be rather repulsive all on it’s own, and take the violent deaths of both early american settlers and south african farmers so unimaginably lightly.

I simply took your little rant and changed some words to show you how it sounds to other people. I did not make any comment about how I view the deaths of white south africans or white American settlers.

Also, it seems you take the violent deaths of thousands of Palestinians incredibly lightly.

In addition, I like how when talking about Apartheid and the Genocide/Ethnic Cleaning of the Native Americans, your heart goes out to the White South Africans and White Settlers of America.

You suspect me to believe a american website which if not by the name itself incites bias

No. I did not expect you to believe the Electronic Intifada because I did not link at all to any articles or opinions of that website. I linked to an open letter written by 91 Gazan civil leaders that simply was given to the Electronic Intifada for publishing as that website, being based in America, can disseminate the message to westerns audiences. None of EI's staff or journalists are involved in writing it. I posted examples to show you that many people who signed the letter are not affiliated with Hamas in any way.

In addition, I did not bring EI into this debate. Asura did, though I do not deny giving him the link to the article in a separate discussion.

You know what's the funny thing? The link to that article is completely meaningless in this debate. Why?

Asura posted it to challenge claims that Hamas was using Human shields.

To corrobate that conclusion, I posted a report from Amnesty International which I will repeat here:

Amnesty International is aware of these claims, and continues to monitor and investigate reports,* but does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks.*

I also posted this picture:

And in case you want a source:

The New Statesman reported:

I saw Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, giving an interview to the BBC after Israel had killed more than 60 people in the Gaza district of Shejaiya.* He said he regretted the civilian casualties in Gaza but they were the fault of Hamas.* Netanyahu said Israel had warned people to get out. Some had taken the advice; others had been prevented from leaving by Hamas.

I was back in London for my son’s 11th birthday party by the time all those people were killed in Shejaiya.* But my impression of Hamas is different from Netanyahu’s. I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel’s accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. I saw men from Hamas on street corners, keeping an eye on what was happening. They were local people and everyone knew them, even the young boys. Raji Sourani, the director of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights in Gaza, told me that Hamas, whatever you think of it, is part of the Palestinian DNA.*

I met Sourani first when he was condemning abuses by Yasser Arafat’s men. He has taken an equally tough stance on Hamas. Now he says Israel is violating the laws of war by ignoring its legal duty to treat Palestinian civilians as protected non-combatants.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human

You keep returning to this non-point of the Electronic Intifida again and again despite it being non-essential to the argument.

If you wish, I will completely not mention that article ever again because I do not need to.

you defend your points radically

Whether I defend them radically or non-radically doesn't change if they are right or wrong.

and make issues over points not addressed, and then attacked my lacking sources rather disgustingly.

I'll answer these together.

I make issues about points not addressed because that's how debates work. I provide my argument with my sources and you reply and add additional arguments with your own sources.

But it doesn't work that way in this thread. I made a very meticulous response to nearly everyone in this thread backed up by sources. One post was so big I needed to split it into two.

But I don't get responses back. I don't get sources that prove your point.

You hammered on and on about how the Electronic Intifida (an American organization mostly staffed by non-muslim, Westerners) is a biased source for several posts, ignoring many other sources, despite it being useless to the discussion as I posted above (in fact, I provided alternate sources to the Human shields argument in my very first reply to you!).

I have provided documents these organizations as my sources:

-Amnesty International
-Human Rights Watch
-The European Union
-The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC)
-The Arizona Jewish Post
-The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OHCA)
-The Guardian
-United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA)
-The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel
- The Goldstone Report
- TIME Magazine
-The New Statesman
-Peace Now

You have provided:

-Wikipedia (2 articles)
-Israeli Defense Forces Official Youtube Page.

WAIT…WAIT

Is that last part true? Did you actually use the official youtube page of the Israeli defense Forces as a source!

Do you think I do not do my own research ?

You used a video from the IDF as a source when claiming you did your own research!

All this time you bag on me for using the Electronic Intifida (an independent US based organization not affiliated in any way with any official Palestinian organization) but you link to this?

Can I use links from Hamas' own website now?

(TBC)

but it becomes hard to feel sorry for them and all that death when the very reason why all these problems happened is when they were allowed self-rule to begin with. The Gaza Strip was formed because Israel wanted a small nation in which the Palestinians could deal with so they could rule themselves, pulling out settlers and all the what not.

I have addressed this point in my first post already in this very thread as I said here:

Regarding Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. I’ve said this again and again but you haven’t responded to me JJ.

Israel withdrew from Gaza but kept full control of Gaza’s Airspace (preventing the airport in Gaza from ever re-opening), Territorial waters ( Preventing fisherman from fishing), land borders (with the exception of Rafah crossing which is administered by anti-Hamas Egyptian governments) and controls movement of people in our out of the territory.

This is considered by UN Human Rights Council, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the European Union to be occupation and still considers Gaza occupied territory.

It was never "self rule"

In fact, if you want some "self rule". It was established in the 1993 Oslo Accords as the Palestinian Authority (mostly Fatah) was given control of 40% of the West Bank and some of the Gaza strip which they ruled unopposed for nearly 13 years. During that time, the numbers of Settlers in the West Bank tripled and the number of illegal new settlements numbered 100.

Peace Now wrote:

Outposts: After Oslo, the Israeli government took upon itself not to establish new settlements. Instead, the government established a new type of settlement called 'Outposts' which are officially illegal under Israeli law, but at the same time are encouraged and supported by the government. Since Oslo Israel has built 100 new settlements, under the guise of 'outposts'. The settlers hope to turn outposts into large settlements with permanent houses and thousands of settlers.

However:
Only three outposts were legalized and recognized as new settlements (Sansana, Bruchin and Rechelim); another six outposts are in different stages of legalization as “neighborhoods” of existing settlements, and the government has declared its intention to legalize another four outposts in the future.

http://peacenow.org.il/eng/OsloSummary

Before you say anything, check that .il suffix. Peace Now is an Israeli organization.

The problem was that Hamas violently took over the strip in 2007, which I must agree with Israel that it gives them good reason to blockade a region.

Hamas did it for good reason. After being elected to power, all the state apparatuses refused to listen to any orders from the new prime minister, as being solely ruled by Fatah since the beginning of their existence made them pretty much the personal functions of the Fatah party.

After many months of tensions, Fatah gunmen fired on a Hamas rally in Ramallah on January 2006 (The point of the rally was to open the Rafah crossing with Egypt as the Egyptians had barred the Prime Minister from entering due to the money he had collected from Qatar, Sudan and Iran after Israel refused to hand over Palestinian tax money it collects on the Palestinians behalf)
after Unidentified gunmen attempted to assassinate Palestinian prime minister Ismail Haniya of Hamas as he tried to enter Gaza.

http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20070818220800/http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/667E8080-F72A-4B4D-933B-EC7BEC1F2C68.htm
http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20070820040213/http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1D2087F6-EC45-4F8B-872B-49B8A17CF51D.htm

After that, Fatah's Presidential Guard begin to receive massive amounts of money and arms.

The Times Newspaper (UK) wrote:

AMERICAN proposals to strengthen Mahmoud Abbas’s Palestinian security forces with additional guns and fighters have alarmed other Western nations, who argue that it is tantamount to supporting one faction in a potential civil war.

(…)

Proposals raised at meetings in London and Cairo include doubling the size of Mr Abbas’s presidential guard and persuading Israel to allow thousands of rifles into Gaza to alleviate its chronic shortage of weapons relative to Hamas.

Fatah officials have asked for more than 1,000 reinforcements from the Palestine Liberation Organisation’s Badr Brigades, in exile in Jordan.

One Western official said that non-American quartet members emerged from one meeting convinced that the US wanted President Abbas to dismiss the Hamas Government, and to use his security forces to “confront Hamas politically and militarily, having confronted it economically”.

(…)

Opponents argued that the international community had accepted the participation of Hamas in elections and should therefore look to support a national unity government. Hamas won elections last January but instantly became international pariahs. Sanctions and an aid freeze have left the Palestinian Government broke and unable to pay 160,000 civil servant salaries.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061121231046/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2459426,00.html

The Christian Science Monitor wrote:

Cairo and Tel Aviv -- Senior US officials in Washington on Wednesday promised ongoing military support for secular Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas amid his power struggle with Islamist Hamas as part of an $84 million aid package largely aimed at improving the fighting ability of an elite corps of loyalists from his Fatah Party.

Israel, too, is making overtures to Mr. Abbas, reported the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Wednesday, allowing light arms to flow to members of his Presidential Guard and saying that it would allow some of the US training of his forces to take place in the West Bank.

That policy puts the US and Israel on a highly unusual course in the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict: Four-square support for Fatah to contain, if not defeat, the growing power of Hamas, which won the Palestinian Authority's (PA) last election.

The fight was coming, whether Hamas liked it or not.

You ignored the fact that instead of saying well look how bad we fucked up before and the internet just is that way is kind of attitudes that don't get anything done even in the U.S. Instead of just saying that helping has only failed how about actually doing it properly.

Secondly the fact you don't see what improving relations with another country does is pretty dumb. But anyway it would not only make other nations in the middle east not hate the U.S and try anything along the lines of terrorism it would mean that you have more partners in trade. Also stop acting like this is where all the money goes because i'm sure your military really needs that extra money on top of the ridiculous amount it spends.

Yet again like my first point you immediately ignored the sentences straight after. I said I know that there is a lot of people like that but that isn't what we should be fixated on. What I'm saying isn't that idealistic either. Because I'm not saying we are going to get rid of violence and conflict forever by doing this but it is much better then sitting on your chair at home quoting a guy from the 1700s that claimed that every man should be free except slaves and worry about your desperate first world problems that are so bloody important.

Hamas tends to smuggle in a lot of their weapons from Saudi Arabia. While the Israelites are lucky to have the Iron Dome defense system,

The first statement is unequivocally false. Being a Saudi Arabian, I can easily tell you that Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by Saudi Arabia. If I wave a Hamas flag in public, I will be instantly arrested. Saudi Arabia has been a staunch supporter of Mahmoud Abass and the Fatah government for decades.

Most of Hamas' weapons come from Syria and Iran, two Shia nations that Saudi Arabia despises.

The Economist wrote (In 2012):

. In the hours that followed, about 90% of the Iranian-supplied Fajr-5 missiles (numbering several hundred) and locally produced M-75 missiles, all with ranges of more than 72km (45 miles), were destroyed, say the Israelis, together with their launchers in underground concrete silos. Since then, many shorter-range Grad rockets and home-made Qassam rockets have also been hit, along with the facilities that assembled missiles and primitive drones smuggled in parts through the network of tunnels linking Gaza with Egypt.

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21567115-israelis-can-fend-most-missiles-some-will-still-get

Iran supplies Fajr-5 rockets, Syria supplies the Ex-Soviet Grad rockets and Hamas builds the M-75 and Qassam rockets. None of them are from Saudi Arabia.

Hamas has also split from Iran and Syria after the Syrian Civil War and currently have no international patrons.

Saudi Arabia actually has to defend itself from accusations that it is pro-Israel.

CNN wrote:

"This is unprecedented in the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict," says CNN's Ali Younes, an analyst who has covered the region for decades. "Most Arab states are actively supporting Israel against the Palestinians -- and not even shy about it or doing it discreetly."

It's a "joint Arab-Israeli war consisting of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia against other Arabs -- the Palestinians as represented by Hamas."

As the New York Times put it, "Arab leaders, viewing Hamas as worse than Israel, stay silent."

The second point…how exactly are Israel "lucky" to have Iron Dome? It's a system they developed with United States money and that some experts believe does not work.

If it worked very well, Israel would not see the need to invade the Gaza Strip. In fact, even after firing thousands of rockets at Israel, Hamas is doing negligible damage to Israel while at the same time, an Israeli ground incursion (One of the things Iron Dome was supposed to prevent from happening) has resulted in nearly 70 Israeli soldiers dead.

Israel's true strength lies in the system of bomb shelters and early warning systems.

it hasn’t deterred Hamas whom purposefully aim at civilian centers. This current conflict is mostly to destroy those weapons and the tunnels which Hamas hides, along with missile launchers.

Not true. The current conflict was launched when three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and the Israeli government blamed Hamas.

New York Magazine wrote:

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But, it turned out Hamas was innocent:

But now, Israeli officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all. (Update: The comments from the Israeli spokesperson in question indicate that the group thought to be responsible, a "lone cell," may not have been under direct orders from Hamas's leadership, but was loosely affiliated with the group. The headline of this post has been changed to reflect that discrepancy. See below for more.)

The *BBC*'s Jon Donnisson:

Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership1/2

— Jon Donnison (@JonDonnison) July 25, 2014

Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld also said if kidnapping had been ordered by Hamas leadership, they'd have known about it in advance.

— Jon Donnison (@JonDonnison) July 25, 2014

The Israeli government issued a gag order to prevent everyone from knowing that the Three teens were dead.

Mondoweiss wrote:

The gag order, which we publish below, has prevented media from reporting on an emergency telephone call made by one of the abducted youths. A widespread rumor is that the sound of a shot can be heard on the call. Mondoweiss has talked with one Israeli source who claims to have listened to the recording and confirms gunshots can be heard. This rumor has fed speculation that Israeli authorities believe one or more of the boys is dead– speculation that has appeared in print.

Gag orders are not uncommon,* but some in social media have suggested that Israel is maintaining this gag order as a cynical means of prolonging raids on the West Bank that have nothing to do with the missing boys but are intended to break up the new Palestinian unity government of Fatah and Hamas.*

Why would Hamas kidnap three teens and spoil their chance at finally being part of a palestinian government again?

The short answer is that they didn't. The Nentanyahu government purposely gagged the phone call that proved the teenagers were did and arrested hundreds of Palestinians and began a campaign against the Gaza strip to split the unity government.

You can listen to the emergency phone call by one of the teens here. it clearly shows that the kidnappers say "heads down!" followed by gunfire and the words "we got them!" in Arabic with singing and celebrations. (WARNING: The video is very disturbing)

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/In-extended-version-of-kidnapped-teens-call-to-police-murderers-heard-singing-in-celebration-361270

Many of the civilian casualties tend to come from stubborn Palestinians not wishing to leave, and from mostly very reckless Israeli forces.

I have addressed this in one of my first posts by Amnesty international:

Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. However, in light of the lack of clarity in many of the Israeli warnings on safe routes for civilians to evacuate, the lack of shelters or other safe places in the Gaza Strip for them to go to, and numerous reports of civilians who did heed the warnings and flee doing so under Israeli fire, such statements by Hamas officials could have been motivated by a desire to avoid further panic.

In addition

Furthermore, international humanitarian law is clear that even if officials or fighters from Hamas or Palestinian armed groups associated with other factions did in fact direct civilians to remain in a specific location in order to shield military objectives from attacks, all of Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.

It doesn't matter if Israel warned them or not. It does not give them the right to bomb people's houses and is still a war crime.

There is simply no where for them to "evacuate". UNRWA run schools are beyond capacity and as seens just a couple days ago, still being hit by Israeli fire. There is no safe place in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world.

The Independent wrote:

But almost all stayed. One reason for that was many of the houses belonged to the Abu Jamaa clan who felt there was safety in staying together. Another reason was given by a neighbour, Abdullah al-Daweish:* “Where do we go to? Some people moved from the outer edge of Khan Younis to Khan Younis centre after Israelis told them to, then the centre got bombed. People have moved from this area to Gaza City, and Gaza City has been bombed. It’s not Hamas who is ordering us in this, it’s the Israelis.”*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

Chickenhound wrote:

I am certain Israel wants to leave the Palestinians alone,

I am not so sure. For primarily these reasons:

First, Settlement building in the West Bank has increased exponentially with no signs of stopping.

Second, Arabs are being gradually removed from East Jerusalem in an attempt to ethnically cleanse the city.

Third, Likud's own site says this:

FACTS:

1. The Jewish nation has a right to exist within secure borders.

2. Only a strong Israel can survive

3. The issue of Palestinian refugees is a shared problem, both for Israel and its neighbors.

4. A Palestinian State within existing Israeli territory is not feasible.

THE PLAN:

The Immediate Phase:

1. Talks on the establishment of a Palestinian State will cease effective immediately.

2. Israel will declare its right to exist within its current borders, with no further surrender of territory.

3. Israel will annex a designated part of Judea and Samaria.

4. Israel and its neighbors will jointly bear the costs of relocation.

5. Arab self-ruled areas will be instated.

6. Equal citizenship, with equal national duties.

7. Any threat to Israel and its citizens will be dealt with accordingly.

http://www.worldlikud.org.il/?page_id=36

For your interest, Likud is the current ruling party in Israel.

but 50 years of war doesn’t exactly make a very peaceful nation.

So? Can that mean 50 years of occupation doesn't make a very peaceful people (Palestinians)?

Can they use this excuse as well?

Trying to live as a normal western state which one’s grandparents were kicked to or settled to after surviving WW2 with every neighbor threatening to put your head on a spike doesn’t exactly make Israel very open for international law

No Jews were "kicked" to the Holy Land. They chose to settle there.

And this isn't the 70s anymore. Egypt has a peace treaty with Israel and actively helps them blockade Gaza. Jordan is pretty much Israel's ally. Lebanon is a joke and Syria has collapsed on itself (They were hardly a threat before either). The rest of the Arab states joined together and offered Israel a peace deal in 2002 that included full recognition of its right to exist and full political relations but they turned it down.

(especially since the UN likes to taunt them more then take action and Israel’s government doesn’t tend to listen since the UN is so incredibly incompetent. Don’t know why Palestinians approach the UN first instead say a larger western power for aid).

The current negotiations are mediated by the "Quartet on the Middle East" and consists of The United States, the United Nations, The European Union and Russia.

As you can see, these are pretty much every single western power. The only power that the Palestinians have left is China. And China pretty much doesn't want to get involved, understandably.

Hamas’s rule of the strip was nothing more short of enslavement of their own people, taking over all newspapers, eliminating christians, and all manner of tyranny was brought in. Hamas basically took whatever government the Palestinians had built up for themselves and chucked it over a cliff, using the small state bring in heavy armaments for themselves.

[citation needed]

You have not provided any proof of this. All I can find is that a single journalist left Gaza after running afoul of Hamas.

As for the banning of newspapers, Hamas banned Fatah-leaning newspapers as Fatah has done likewise in the West Bank.

These bans were lifted as part of the reconciliation process by both sides.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/07/us-palestinian-hamas-unity-idUSBREA460GR20140507

There is no slavery. Do not use that word, please. Slavery means forcing people to work for no money. Has this happened in Gaza? Please provide proof of this.

There is NO elimination of Christians in Gaza. ONE man has died and Hamas officials attended the funeral and condemned the attack as I proved above.

But here are some words from Palestinian Christians themselves:

Reuters wrote:

Life under Hamas is a delicate topic.* “We don’t have any problem with them,” Saba said carefully.* A 21-year-old student, who asked not to be named, said Hamas didn’t do anything specific against Christians but didn’t protect them when they came under attack from Islamist extremists. Over at the Greek Orthodox Church of Saint Porphyrous, a parishioner there who also asked not to be named said Christians were concerned about Hamas although he gave no details.

Husam al-Taweel, a Christian member of the Palestinian Legislative Council elected with Hamas support, gave a fuller view of the situation for Christians in Gaza*. “I won’t say there are no problems and we are living in heaven,”* he said in an office at the Greek Orthodox church, where he is secretary general of the board. “But there is no discrimination against Christians in particular. We don’t see ourselves as a minority, but as part of the Arab majority.”

Taweel said 90 percent of Gaza’s 4,000 Christians were Greek Orthodox, the rest being Roman Catholic and a few Baptists.* The Christian community has dwindled because of migration, he said, but added: “This is not a problem only for Christians. This is a problem for the Palestinian community in general. They’re all looking for a job, a better future.”*

*The rise to power of Hamas had not changed life much for Christians, he said. “Nobody asks my sister to put on a veil,” he said, “I will not allow anyone to interfere in my life as a Christian.” *But there had been attacks on Christians, such as some who sold liquor or on a YMCA library, and the culprits were never found. One man, Rami Ayyad, was abducted and killed, apparently as a result of his work at the Protestant Holy Bible Society. Taweel spoke at length about the need to apply Palestinian law, implying that this wasn’t done equally.

Here's a statement by Father Manawel Musallam, the only Catholic priest in Gaza

I have come to his office to ask how Christians in Gaza were faring on this, their first Christmas under the full internal control of Hamas.

"You media people!" Father Musallam boomed at me when I first poked my head around his door.

"Hamas this, Hamas that. You think we Christians are shaking in our ghettos in Gaza? That we're going to beg you British or the Americans or the Vatican to rescue us?" he asked.

"Rescue us from what? From where? This is our home."

(…)

"They should be afraid. Not me," he chuckled.

"Their children are under my tutelage, in my school.Hamas mothers and fathers are here at parents' day along with everyone else."

"You see," Fr Musallam told me, as he gazed indulgently at the goings-on on stage. "Our identity is a multi-layered one."

"Of course, I am a Christian believer, but politically I am a Palestinian Muslim. I resist Israel's military occupation, obviously not with weapons.

"The Jihad can never be mine but with my words, my sermons, I am a Palestinian priest."
(…)
There is no evidence to suggest the Hamas government here officially discriminates against Christians but its takeover in Gaza – its military wing's leading role in armed resistance against Israel, along with the Islamic Jihad faction – have all led to the increasing Islamisation of Gazan society.

And that has encouraged some extremist Muslims to take action.

A Christian bookshop owner was killed here a couple of months ago.

There was a kidnap attempt on another Christian recently.

And a number of Christian families we spoke to say they had received death threats.

They question Hamas' willingness to take action to protect them.

*However, it was under Hamas armed escort that we met the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Michel Sabbah, on a special pre-Christmas visit to Gaza.

It was quite a spectacle. *

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7154134.stm

Hopefully, Hamas is crippled enough for Fatah to return to power in the region, despite my hatred of socialists, and return the people their government republic.

Actually, the reconciliation deal meant that the Fatah-controlled Palestinian Authority officially received controlled of the Gaza strip from Hamas.

The next elections would see Hamas almost surely lose. Returning Fatah to power once again.

But this war ruined all that because Israel wanted to pin the death of three teens on Hamas.

(End multipart post)

"You ignored the fact that instead of saying well look how bad we fucked up before and the internet just is that way is kind of attitudes that don’t get anything done even in the U.S. Instead of just saying that helping has only failed how about actually doing it properly."

I had to read this several times in order to even remotely understanding what you're saying. Learn English.

"Secondly the fact you don’t see what improving relations with another country does is pretty dumb."

I asked you how giving a helping hand to all the countries around the world would benefit us. You didn't answer. Saying "is pretty dumb" is not an answer.

"But anyway it would not only make other nations in the middle east not hate the U.S and try anything along the lines of terrorism it would mean that you have more partners in trade."

The Middle East hates us already, unless you haven't been paying attention to our relations with them for the past twenty years or so. Eastern and Western culture clash on colossal levels. Also, "we would have more partners in trade?" What the FUCK are you even talking about? Are you completely unaware of how much oil we get from the Middle East?

"Also stop acting like this is where all the money goes because i’m sure your military really needs that extra money on top of the ridiculous amount it spends."

I was not implying that this is where all "the money goes" but thank you for putting words in my mouth. A big part of our economic problems (you know, the fact that we're trillions of dollars in debt?) in the United States is putting so much effort into other countries.

"Because I’m not saying we are going to get rid of violence and conflict forever by doing this but it is much better then sitting on your chair at home quoting a guy from the 1700s that claimed that every man should be free except slaves…"

Lol, right, because you're clearly a man on a mission yourself. I'm sure one day the Jews and the Arabs will hold hands in the street and sing "I Want to Buy the World a Coke". Then, they'll give praises to an Internet user named Spider-Byte and thank him for being such a mover and shaker in human rights.

Do you ever get nauseous from spewing such rhetoric? If the Middle East wants peace, they can figure it out on their own. Perhaps, one day, they will if they have radical political and cultural change. Why do you think that the United States needs to be there to guide them? Do you think that all people in other nations are just a bunch of Cro-Magnons drawing stick-men in the sand and grunting at one another? You can try and condemn me for just "sitting in my chair", but what are you doing? You're standing atop your ivory tower pontificating about how we should help foreign nations instead of helping ourselves.

"…and worry about your desperate first world problems that are so bloody important."

Let me tell you a bit about myself. I used to live in New Orleans before Hurricane Katrina. My family and I could not get out of the city before she hit. Almost all of the city was submerged in water. My family lost almost everything we had; half of our house was completely destroyed. We were lucky, since over 800,000 people were displaced because of the disaster. Other people in my neighborhood lost everything they had.

Meanwhile, FEMA completely drops the ball with mitigation, and the government (Federal, State, and Local) does a half-assed job at helping. I could rattle off everything that went wrong with the recovery effort, but I'll just say this: You don't want to know what it's like to see your house, your neighborhood, and the lives of your friends and neighbors ruined by natural disaster.

Fast forward to the financial debacle that happened towards the end of the Bush administration. My father lost his job, and in January of 2009 my mother was diagnosed with cancer. We almost had to move out on the street because we could just barely afford to hold together.

So, don't give me this retarded bullshit about how I'm suffering from "first world problems." Look at places like New Orleans, Chicago and Detroit and you can see how the United States doesn't give a damn; we have too many bleeding heart apologists like you who think that we're obligated to dole out billions of dollars to foreign aid to places like South Korea, Israel, Egypt and Libya. I'm sure if I made a post about how people living in first world countries shouldn't complain because other countries have it so much worse you'd be blubbering about how I'm "insensitive" to the plight of others.

So go ahead and generalize all the issues of the United States as, "Oh, you yanks spend all your time arguing about guns." I doubt some limey from the United Kingdom would understand anyways. I'm done with this thread because I've derailed it from the main topic enough times, but if you're going to make posts, Spider-Byte, make them befitting of your age, not your intelligence quotient.

All I can think is this.

At the end of the day, however terribad Israel and Hamas are…what's the solution?

We know one thing for sure; it would be great if Israel would stop dropping bombs all over a region that probably doesn't need to be bombed. That's a great start. And it might be possible to get Israel to stop doing that if enough of the planet shows their disgust

But will that be enough? I've got no assurance. That won't keep the guns at bay for very long before they inevitably start firing again from either side. I know that and we all do. Was any attempt at stabilizing the region ever enough? No, the gears of war just keep spinning with these two. You can't blame the rest of the world for being skeptical that anything is going to keep the peace

We know the Israeli leadership wont be satisfied until Palestine is gone. And that's bad. But what will satisfy Palestine? If we give them more guns and territory, won't they just continue fighting until Israel is gone? What assurance does the rest of the world have that anything we do will make a difference?

Do we turn on Israel and upset the power balance? Slice up the territory in pieces and give it to each? How well did that ever work out?

It seems that the conflict will go on for eternity, for as long as two nations lay claim to the exact same land. The past several thousands of years have indicated that people will fight over the region until we're all dead. There's no end in sight. If other nations intervene, what more will that be than everyone pouring in their own national resources just to keep somebody else's needless battle ongoing?

Do we go even further and cut Israel out completely? You don't just wipe out a nation that powerful. Won't that just continue the bloodshed for centuries to come? You'll get the reverse effect of what's happening now. Do even they deserve that?

Just what is the world supposed to do about this? This is almost frustrating me. We can argue the awfulness of Israel and Hamas from our armchairs all day, but no matter what happens, will anything stop this war?

ok, been absent from the forum for a while, cant respond induvidually to every wall of text here, so ill sum up the simple points and retort:

"gaza is under siege, they have the right to defend themselves" WRONG. there are passages that allow transportation of goods from both the israeli and Egyptian side albeit heavily guarded.

the only reason why this siege exists is to prevent Hamas from getting more arms. they got a buttload of weapons, and that's just smuggling them through tunnels from egypt, imagine how much more deadly weapons they would get if they could transport them by sea or air?
so instead of firing 10 inaccurate rockets a day they would fire 100 Scuds a day?

do you know how easy it will be for Hamas to commit murder against israelis if there was no wall and fortified garrison to get in their way?

how the hell israel is supposed to negotiate peace with a terrorist organization that officially states that it does not the existence of israel and justifies murder of innocent people in their doctorine?

and either way, shooting rockets at civilian population is in no possible way any mean of self defense, if they actually did want to defend themselves they would try to destroy the walls, not dig tunnels underneath it to commit murder in civilian population.

"there is 75% of the deaths were civilian , that's not right!"
First the Palestinians always exaggerate to make sure they are still labeled as victims.
second, we don't know how many of those civilians were active members of hamas who were simply unarmed when they got killed or collaborators.

and third and most importantly: THEY LAUNCH THEIR MISSILES FROM SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS.
it was a proven fact. their dead operatives carried small booklets instructing to try staying in populated areas as much as possible, to make sure israel will accidentally kill civilians.
they gave kids candy and told them to hang next to the Qassam launchers to make sure the kids will die as well when the planes blow it up.

when israel sent letters to the civilians to evacuate their homes before the bombardments a lot of them didn't either because Hamas said they will become saints or simply because they threatened to kill them if they leave.

israel even did the 'knock on the roof' which i mentioned in the OP, but no one seems to give a shit. even if a Palestinian will intentionally dive in front of the tank its still 'evil israeli brutality'.

and just to for the record, israel has all the munitions to completely flatten Gaza and kill them all. but they don't do it, why? maybe because they are trying to reduce civllian casualties?
and how effective are you going to be if the enemy does everything they can to get as many civilians killed as possible?

who cares if they refuse to leave or forced to stay by an insane terrorist organization it's all israel's fault.

third: "Hamas rockets are ineffective, Israel shouldn't defend itself to begin with."
that, is straight up bullshit. there is no way i can be civil about this outrageous statement.

are you saying that israel should just ignore missiles being fired at it? "oh only 1 out of 100 destroys homes and kills people, so lets just ignore it and just live with a murdered jew every week" seriously?

if mexico was to fire rockets at the US would you say that too? "oh but the US has missile defense system and bomb shelters" so? does it mean people should live under a constant barrage of rockets? no! the US would obliterate them!

if you have a house of glass down throw stones! if you have a neighbor with a vastly superior army, dont shoot at him! it's so simple!

what's the solution? no idea. Israel already stated that they have the means to assassinate the Hamas leadership and cause it to collapse, but they are afraid that an even worse organization will emerge. like Da'ash, you know, the guys that already muredered 1000+ people just for being christian yet no one cares about?

how about occupying gaza and finally giving the folks freedom of movement and whatnot that they had before Hamas took over?
not going to happen, death toll on both sides will be colossal and either way israel will be branded as an evil occupier, desipte the fact that their lives will be 100x times better.

send NATO to occupy liberate gaza from hamas? not going to happen, unless a huge deposits of oil will be found there.

so the only thing israel can do to get relative peace is to lock them out to prevent as much as possible from arming themselves.