Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

Hey, I'm not gonna argue anymore about whether or not it fits the game or whatever, I actually would prefer if the thread got back onto its more general topic. That said, I did find something that would effect the debate about the game in particular. It seems the truth is somewhat in between on whether tsuki's anatomy is possible.

In this cutscene there's 2 poses Tsuki takes. One is normal human anatomy… the other looks like a broken spine just like the supposedly fake image showed. Seriously skip around and look at the side views, you'll see what I mean. There's a pose transition at the end where it shows her pelvis moving back into place and it's fuckin weird. You can only really tell something's fucky when it shows the side views and that spinal curvature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6VeUtEs_ek

To put the topic back onto the general stuff, How do you guys feel on dead or alive xtreme? That is pretty high on the scale of sexualized women. Do ya guys think that those sorta games are alright?

Judging by the video, each one of the Blades fills a bit of a Niche, or trope, and that the bunny that everyone is getting up in arms about was designed to fill the Femme Fatale trope, a type of character many consider to be misogynistic unless it's made to emasculate a male character and "Take Back" some form of power in the form of spouting feminist rhetoric and treating men badly.

Onto the subject at hand, I feel the same rule applies to everything. Unless it breaks the law, Creators do not need to justify anything for their characters designs. Short of Child Pornography, due to the nature of fiction being able to show pretty much every other form of crime without repercussion, A character can be designed in whatever manner the creator decides.

What people don't understand is that by making characters need to be justified, to have them required to have a reason to be designed a certain way, they are handcuffing themselves to the very arguments they presumably despies whenever people complain about "Sjw-ism in Fiction".

Carol Danvers having a haircut that I consider to be ugly, a personality I consider to be Bad, and a message in her comics I consider to be bad, along with a superpowered form I consider to be Poorly Designed, should not be grounds for Carol Danvers current artist and writer to be removed from the comic and replaced with somoene who will draw and write Carol Danvers in a way I enjoy.

Carol Danvers doesn't need a reason to be Written as Carol Danvers, nor drawn with a look some consider to be bad. Just like Ms. Marvel doesn't need a reason to be a muslim girl. New Hulk doesn't need justification in order to be Korean. And the people responsible for Thor Ragnarok do not need to answer for making Valkyrie a woman of color.

In the west we really like to claim all these designs need no justification. In fact, people balk at the idea of questioning these changes, to the point of decrying Misogyny and Patriarchy and Racism and Sexism, and all manner of terrible human beings.

But when it comes to Eastern entertainment? Nah, they gotta completely change every character design to fit our standards. What, you had an idea for this female character to be okay with showing off her body? How fucking dare you, who authorized you to design your character the way you want to? Who gave you the clearance to make this design? I wouldn't have approved it, so you either change it, remove it, or you're guilty of spreading misogyny and hate.

Seems really two-faced to say "This media can do whatever changes and redesigns they want, because I like the changes", and then turning around and saying "This media needs to change it's original content because I hate it."

We're okay as a culture with taking someone elses idea, completely undoing it, making a different version, and then belittling anyone who doesn't like the new changes. But we also seem to absolutely hate anyone who makes their own story and characters, but doesn't do it to an imaginary standard we decided the entire world needs to adhere to.

Kinda makes the whole conversation seem really foolish, when you know all of it is held to a giant double standard.

I remember playing the volleyball game. I was bored shitless. I can't believe I thought big tits alone would carry the game. Then again, I was a younger fellow in those days.

Back on topic… I suppose It depends on context and whether or not games should be rated appropriately. We wouldn't sell games with PG when there's gore everywhere and I guess likewise we shouldn't do so for sexual content either. The thing is, when one does decide to go the route of sexual pandering, they got to balance that out with making sure they get past the ratings board. But in order to that, they got to cover up at least part of the flesh in order to sneak it and get a decent rating.

Problem: the sex aspect is in a limbo. It's stuck in tease. This causes frustration. Too much sexualization without it becoming explicitly pornographic and people start to feel insulted. Because if they want to jack off to characters then they watch an SFM porno or whatever or play an actual hentai game.
If people want to jack off then fine, I'm okay with porn games. I wouldn't put them up on the Game Awards, but I can acknowledge their place in the industry. But I do feel insulted when games try pass themselves off as being serious by say, dancing around the issue saying "You dirty boy… I bet you want this ass don't you?"

@Black Graphic T

I definitely agree it's unfair to expect a character design to be justified, for the most part.

My personal view is that there's nothing wrong with a creator making their own design. However, there's points to be made that when certain tropes are prevalent about a given group of people, those tropes are symptomatic of how society feels about that group. You can further say that those tropes reinforce that viewpoint and it all plays back into a feedback loop.

An example would be the depiction of black stereotypes in literature around the time of the civil war. While the southern side was notably worse, both sides tended to depict black people as dim-witted in general, and people who hadn't met black people would accept those ideas about black people.

I feel feminism is attempting to attack what they view to be far-too-common tropes that represent women poorly. But since it's pretty hard to attack a trope across many genres, they instead attack what they perceive as the extremes. I'm not sure if that's the best strategy but that's how it seems to go.

From the financial/fanservice point of view it's justified in any case.

From the logical point of view it's justified if it not goes against character role. For example goddess of love surely should look sexy, while having boob armor and chain bikini as regular soldier is not really normal both from protection and moral point of view(unless commander is pervert, then it's ok).

This is a good video about all of this:

And that is what I answered:
Blades are artificial people meant to have children. That is their primary directive. That is why they were created.

..Dahlia's personality isn't extreme or anything. If you think that is depicting women poorly you are genuinely never going to get laid, cause if a female who is good with kids and is kind hearted is "attacking women" then well you get the point.

Dahlia, "Kids are great"
"Wow talk about a poor depiction of women"

That's as piss poor an argument as saying women can't be sexist or this Captain America is fine because a man drew it.

The fact that people are still arguing that sexualization doesn’t fit this story shows that none of you have touched this game for even a iota of a second. Stop trying to bullshit your way into pretending as though you’ve played the game. You’re having a case of dysentery of the mouth and just spewing constant bullshit that doesn’t fit the lore at all and it’s making you look like a moron. If you want I could tell you the entire story; I’ve already 100% the game.

Currently at Chapter 4, and while I believe it fits the overworld narrative I still find this a piss poor argument. Step up your game.

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It's a case by case situation, but I think that's something a lot already realized.

For the main example of Tsuki: yeah ok she has some spine-shattering tits, but when you look at the entire Blade cast from the game you'll notice they went for a broad appeal. Tsuki is the one end of the spectrum, and Electra or Ursula the other. The game is great, but it has weeb character design, so they want to check the fetish boxes.

A type of sexualized character that can't really be justified is the classic example of male body armour vs. female bikini armour – 3 pieces of string can't boast your defense by 500. And for the rest I'll agree with Natsuru.

@RandomMan
"I still find this a piss poor argument. Step up your game."
This game is a anime game that is meant for otaku and weabs NOT children. Also Nintendo dropped their family gaming slogan years ago.

It was only recently that they wanted to cater more to an adult audience.

Friendly reminder this happened not even half a year ago.

Justified in the sense of "is it okay to do this", the answer is always yes. It is always okay, even if people don't like it.

Justified as in "is it good design", it depends. Speaking from a purely visual perspective, an excessively sexualized design can often be hard to take seriously and even tends to lose its attractiveness due to it being amplified too much. I think this part has a lot more to do with proportions and fashion sense than the actual attractiveness of the character. Even so, this is a very subjective thing to look at.

Justified as in "does it fit in the game's world", unless there's something that specifically prevents characters from being excessively sexualized within the game's own universe, the answer is also yes. It may be eccentric, it may be jarring to some, but unless it contradicts something specific about the game's world or the character's story, there is no need for any more "justification".

I don't know which fallacy this is, but it most likely fits one. Is reaction images really your best game?

I don't care about game censors to that extend, I just wanted to counter your point. Nintendo is a good boi and this was a great year for them.

@RandomMan
Sadly a lot of people don't see this good year as good.

There genuinely were people that wanted Nintendo to stop making consoles and instead make only cellphone games.

Not sure if anyone brought this up about Tsuki, but the reason for her exaggerated body proportions could be because her body was meant to resemble Jessica Rabbit from Who Framed Roger Rabbit, who had similarly exaggerated body proportions. There a good chance it isn't, and it probably lands more on the crackpot side, but food for thought.

In regards to the general discussion, yeah, sexualized female character designs are totally justifiable. Generally, I feel that anything really goes so long as it fits the art style, setting, and character (and it's not illegal). However, realistic art styles and settings have less leeway.

Whether or not the design is justifiable. In my opinion, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really cause any harm that I see, and I don't think that "too sexy" equals sexism. You could argue that it presents an unrealistic beauty standard, but same goes for most media in general.

@YourHigherBrainFunctions

The latter post I made about how a character is justified/unjustified is about the main topic. I do believe there's quite a few games out there that sexualize women, to be frank, so I was mainly talking about those. The one post I made before that about Xeno was more to inform than make an argument.

I'm going to be honest here: I genuinely don't understand why you people are complaining about sexualization in what is effectively a fetish game.

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In case you still don't get it:

"But it's a Nintendo game!"
Remember how in Fire Emblem you could marry your sister?

@YourHigherBrainFunctions

…didn't I just say I was talking about more general games at this point and not Xeno? I get the feeling you're more annoyed with the fact Xeno has a controversy than the actual topic.

Reason why I'm so annoyed at this:

Let's say you were a fan of pokemon since pokemon red; you've played every single game in the entire series and love the series and it was your childhood. Then one day a group of people who have never touched any of the games, who don't know any of the lore, who have never bought any of the merchandise and has no interest in buying the games started demanding that the company takes out the monster capture from the games entirely.

If games are art you are like the people that want artists draw their oc for free.

@YourHigherBrainFunctions

You do realize I've already conceded the point that it's the nature of the game and that creators can make their own designs. Please stop trying to peg me into Xenoblade hater dude, even at this point I'm still a maybe at getting the game when I get a switch. In any case though, I've said what I wanted to say about games in general, so I'll be heading out.

Still "sexy" designs tend to not be the most creative, so games getting more "fanservisy" can be bad in that respect.

No offense OP, but the original question you posed is…not good. It is somewhat leading and also requires a higher-level dialogue that is not well-suited to forums due to its complexity. What I think you might be looking for is an intellectual discussion on topics such as feminism, men's issues/sexuality, and intersectionality but within the context of video games. It would be sufficient to say that this is difficult to talk about outside of an essay.

I'd like to offer my thoughts on these subjects, but man is it a lot of work to adequately address them with any brevity. I will say that you all should try reading about intersectional theory (definition in addition to arguments both for and against, of course). It is pretty relevant to a lot of things these days.

@Gaphiltfish
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't intersectional theory based off critical theory?

TFW Cpt. America has bigger tits than your female character.

Any kind of design can be justified, to be honest. There's nothing wrong with sexualised designs but it's always good to make sure there's more to your characters than sex appeal. You should want people to like your characters for more than that unless they were made specifically as sex appeal and mostly nothing else.

@YourHigherBrainFunctions I think Curry and Rice was talking in a more general sense, and in a more general sense there are certainly examples… cough…Lots of Anime…cough.

Still I actually enjoyed that scene the writing seems to be better than people are giving it credit for because of the designs, she seems like she would be considered a good feminist character if it wasn't for her design (to which I am neutral).

NO!'s right, I was speaking generally, not just about Xenoblade.

Counterpoint: almost all of anime passes the Bechdel Test.

The Bechdel Test was made by feminists to determine if a mass media product is considered "sexist".

That IS true and it is good but I would argue that the Bechdel Test is intentionally quite easy to pass, it is basically the minimum requirement. Harem shows (just for an example) tend to pass the Bechdel test yet many shitty ones are quite lazy in how they characterize their female characters, add the fact that they can be quite degrading to the character in question about their fan service and they end up feeling like "toys" for the equally bland male protagonist. This is not really a jab to Echi anime in general as strangely enough I would argue Monster Musume is kind of an exception even though I don't watch the show and it is mainly fanservice cause they have developed personalities, they are not just "Tsundere #56 with Boobs" you get me?

@NO
"even though I don’t watch the show"

In all seriousness this isn't really a thing about ecchi or such, but rather most people who complain about this sort of thing are too shy to watch the more extreme shows which often do have good characterizations.

"I have a anime with good characterizations of women beyond being 'toys'. It's about this couple of friends getting ready for the school festival. The way it ends is in the final episode is that after the main character saves his sister they realize they romantically love each other and proceed to start a family together"
"Incest not really your thing huh? What about this: a centaur barmaid finally gets it through a guy's head that she likes him cause he views here not as a pair of walking tits but as a person."
"Not really a fan of human x monster or fisting? What about a guy changes bodies with a goddess cause she doesn't understand carnal pleasures, they stay like that and become husband and wife"
"Not really a fan of gender bender huh? What about this show in which a guy's girlfriend finds out he likes to crossdress, she tells him she likes to crossdress. The guy starts fulltiming as a woman, the girlfriend fulltimes as a man and they happily start a family."
"Oh come on you find even pegging too extreme?!"

Basically: ya'll are too shy to watch the good shows cause the good shows where the women do have distinct personalities, goals and such are shows more fetish based.

Tldr; the reason why female characterization in pg-13 harem shows and such suck ass is that pg-13 ecchi sucks ass universally cause it's meant to appease to people who are too shy to watch adult only

If you want:
Strong female characters with distinct personalities who don't need men to accomplish their goals, are capable of functioning on their own, talk to other women not about men, are intelligent, etc-
watch hentai/borderline hentai like a normal person.

Strong distinct females with individual goals and personalized relationships bro?

Btw I am not arguing for feminism or the patriarchy, I am just arguing that a lot of anime/japanese videogame writers are hacks, especially harem anime writers.

Edit: I love anime, but there is A LOT of trash.

Again: pg-13 ecchi sucks 95% of the time. The last really good pg-13 ecchi was No Game no LIfe season 1 which was three whole years ago. Meanwhile for more adult ecchi anime there's the monogatari series, sins is getting a sequel and nekopara is about to come out.

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"Well can you name one very good ecchi show that has amazing visuals, good characters, female characters who have distinct personalities, good music, well fleshed out world lore wise and will have me wanting to come back for more?"
Made in Abyss
"..shit"

@YourHigherBrainFunctions

Maybe the anime is misleading about the overall manga's tone, not read it, but from what I saw I'd be hard-pressed to call made in abyss ecchi. Having nudity appear where it would make sense in a survival situation is just realism.

I dunno, I just feel it's like calling game of thrones a porn show. Yeah it has sex in it, but it's more for the realistic tone and approach than to actually appeal to the audience.

@documents1
Counterpoint: the original artist draws loli on pixiv.

Counterpoint: The original artist of lilo and stitch draws some pretty lewd stuff on deviantart. I won't link because rule 3 but you can find it.