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You're not even trying to make a point any more, you're throwing information at us with no context hoping it'll magically change our minds somehow.

That is not how you win an argument. That is not how you get your point across. You keep saying that the answer is RIGHT THERE and that you're logically correct but at no point have you portrayed your argument as logical.

You need to have a coherent argument that isn't "TRAP IS HARMFUL I HAVE PROOF". You don't have proof. You have anecdotal evidence at best, and anecdotal evidence is worthless.

The rest of us, however, have given you plenty of evidence that runs counter to whatever your point is, and, again, you just gloss over it because it's not what you want to hear.

I will repeat myself, since by your logic by doing so you change minds.

You don’t want to listen. You don’t want to argue. You want to preach. You’re here to forward an agenda, and anyone who tries to argue with your ideals is wrong in your eyes.

The Original Poster's argument has definitely changed tack at least once or twice.

The original poster directly quoted my first response providing at least two supposedly "concrete" examples that were supposed to show that it is plainly false to say that the word trap is never applied to real people. After my second response however the original poster replies that neither of the examples that they gave are actual examples of the term trap. Is there some kind of recursive definition or grandfather clause involved with the term trap that would apply to the examples you gave?

My argument remains the same as in my second post: Traps in Anime and Manga are fictional characters after all. Characters in any work of fiction are products of their authors imagination and any resemblance to any real world instances is purely coincidental.

Perhaps our difficulty in reaching a consensus is due to a difference in terminology. I do not know if my definition of a trap character is the same as the original poster's or any other poster's definition of trap.

The first character that comes to my mind when I think of a trap character is Bugsy, a Bug--type trainer and second Gym Leader from the second generation of the Pokemon series. Bugsy does not dress overtly feminine and addresses himself as male but historically players have been confused about Bugsy gender because of his feminine appearance and all female team of Pokemon. Bugsy's feminine appearance has been referenced in at least two of the games manga adaptations by having the main character mistake him for a girl.

He's keeping up appearances. From what I can tell, that character's entire shtick is tricking people into thinking he's a girl when, surprise, he's not. So, if that's his goal, it would make sense for him to enter the women's bathroom.

Why does this character act in the way that they do? In this specific case, why does the character head for the women's bathroom?

For the sake of a joke. I am not familiar enough with the Blend S anime series to do any sort of in-depth character analysis, my only consciousness of this show comes from the brief meme it spawned that was documented on KYM.

That being said, this scene is a joke. Blend S is a workplace comedy adapted from a 4-koma gag manga built on the premise that all of the employees in this workplace adopt a specific character archetype based on Otaku culture. Why does this character head for the women's bathroom, because it is a joke. Ask why the other character in the scene magically extends their arms to catch the first character and point them to the correct bathroom. Does that other character identify as a Gomu Gomu no Mi user?

I know plenty of dudes who act way more feminine than masculine majority of the time. They're not trans. You do realise men can be effeminate, right? A man who acts feminine isn't necessarily trans. It's why we have terms like tomboy and tomgirl, which is what effeminate men can be categorised as. Tomgirls. Boys who have effeminate personalities.

As for the character we were referring to, it was explained to you that it's a damn joke. They come from a comedy anime. Their shtick is that they're a trap. There's nothing more to this, at all. End of story. They aren't trans. They're also not real. Stop trying to apply your flawed logic to cartoon characters.

I have a feeling that our words are going to waste here. The original poster seems to have skipped over the majority of our responses and has only responded to the first sentence of my post, answering their own question in essence.

As a matter of fact the whole second page of this thread is a complete non-sequitur. We were having a different argument on the last page.

No I read your whole post. The thing is you are all trying to tell someone who IS the thing we are talking about what it is like to be that thing. :smh:

Anyway hear about what this life is like for a real life person who would be called "trap" on /r/traps. Tell me if the personality she describes isn't exactly what this meme is about.

So you're a trap, not trans? Because last i checked we were talking about traps, and this entire time you've referred to yourself as trans.

It has been explained to you again and again that they are not the same thing. We have provided evidence to support our claims, and you ignore it. You ignore everything we say, make a response that twists our words in an attempt to make yourself seem correct, then post a totally irrelevant video to the subject at hand.

The fact that you have to rely on videos almost EVERY SINGLE TIME to push your argument is ridiculous and proves that you have no real arguments. This thread is going absolutely nowhere, because you refuse to properly debate any of us.

Requesting lock. This has gone far enough.

I have watched the whole video, I guess I would say the most pertinent part came a minute in when the interviewer was describing young boys in the community who look and act like girls.

I would have to say no, this person's experiences do not describe what I see traps as being. Another popular video game example I would give is Link from LoZ: Breath of the Wild. If you are not familiar with the game this particular Link has softer, more feminine features than previous LoZ protagonists. So much so that early speculation theorized that this new Zelda game might have a female protagonist, speculation spurned on by Aonuma stating that the new protagonist might not be Link; until he revealed that he was joking.

There is a reason for Link's more feminine appearance though as one of the optional main questlines require Link to dress as a female in order to gain access a town. The game then allows you to wear the costume whenever you want. Several men will confuse Link for a female and even attempt to hit on him. You could essentially play the role of a trap if you want.

I would call Link a trap in this situation, but there are no occurrences in the game that would lead me to calling him transgender. You could make that argument if you wanted but it would probably have the same conclusion as trying to convince people that Samus was transgender.

Of course I make a clear delineation between fictional characters and real life people, I have never purported that real-life people were traps.

That a feminine looking male who tries to act male and dress male is not trans I totally agree with

Link as you describe him there is just a feminine looking male who's trying to act male and who dresses male all the time. Yet can be mistaken for a girl without trying at all.

If the word trap was only used for such characters and never for real people there would not be a problem.

Then see what the poster above you wrote and you can see why there is a problem

In the first sentence of the above he implies that a transwoman who passes is a trap. "So you’re a trap, not trans? Because last i checked we were talking about traps, and this entire time you’ve referred to yourself as trans."

Will you at least agree that someone like say Urushibara Ruka, or Astofolo, or (my doppleganger) Hoshino Daruku are not like Link in the version of Zelda you described? Unlike Link they look dress and try to act as girls as much as possible without having actual ovaries. In two of the above cases they have magically impossible sex changes* and are overjoyed (not sure but in a side story the same might happen to the third one… haven't gotten my hands on that novel).

The counter belife I see here is that unless the character is drawn with a sign around their neck that says transgender they aren't transgender.

Another thing the video gives is a non western explaination of transgender identity. The word "Bakla" from the phillipines is like "Katoey" from Thailand or "Otoko no ko" from Japan, or the many Native American concepts of transgender identity. It is a mixture of male and female aspects in the form of a female appearing, female acting, but anatomically male (enough) between the legs individual.

Which describes exactly what the characters I am concerned with are.

*In fact I just got news right now that my insurance is actually going to finally pay for mine!

It appears as though there might have been some confusion in this thread.

1. As I have stated in my first post, no one has made the argument that the word trap is appropriate for real-life people, several people in this thread have made the argument that the term trap only refers to fictional characters.

2. KaijuSundae|Calkarot never implied that transwomen are traps, the poster was referring to the second sentence of your post where your sentence structure was ambiguous as to what you were referring too.

3. People are unlikely to refer to a character as transgender unless those characters are explicitly referred to as such. Any aspect of a character that is not officially stated either in the work itself, canonical side material or from the author is headcanon or fanon and is invalid. Imposing your own values onto a work of fictional that you did not directly create is not only disrespectful to the author but also creates friction between the fans of the work.

To point 3

You are aware of reddit /r/traps right? https://www.reddit.com/r/traps/

ALL of those people are real life actual people. MOST of the pictures are posted are of people that are well known transgender personalities.

This is your bi weekly reminder that the word trap being used and justified because someone does not speficially wear a shirt with the word transgender on it all the time is transphobic.

I am very reasonable and convincible, convince me I am wrong and you can probably convince anyone

I post images like this because I sense part of the issue is that many of you think all transgender women look like say Caitlyn Jenner, or other mass media loved transwomen. Who while diet and exercise for life has meant she will look decent in any guise… come on….really? Would never be an Otoko no ko but an Okama.

The media gives you an images that transgender would look like and be like that. The reason being that if a transwoman looks decent then the media does not have a striking visual for the covers of magazines and on TV. Plenty of transgender women model as women and after they are out it is never mentioned again an they keep working it.

Give that input no wonder you are all so certain that these characters are something so different from a transgender person.

After a week has passed you dredge this back up? Fine I am in a good mood anyway.

My third point refers only to fictional characters. Any real life examples that you provide are ultimately irrelevant. A real life person can apply any label to themselves that the want. If a subreddit consisting of transgender individuals want to call themselves traps then you will hear no protest from me.

Fictional characters are different. The identities of any fictional character is beholden to the whim of an author and do not extend beyond that. If a character is transgender and has been referred to such within the work itself or from a canonical source then no argument can be made against that.

However if the character is merely referred to in colloquial terms as a trap but no canonical evidence exist for their gender status then calling them transgender is speculation and is no more or less valid then any other speculation regarding their state. Any perceived aspect of a character that is not officially stated either in the work itself, canonical side material or from the author is headcanon or fanon and is invalid.

Real life people are hardly irrelevant. By that logic one could make a racist cartoon and it should be OK because the people in it are fictional. Clearly we know it is relevant.

Furthermore, even when a manga is actually a biography of a living transgender person if the character is drawn to show the trans woman as convincing looking she will be called a trap.

Hanayome wa Motodanshi (The bride used to be a guy)
That one is an AUTOBIOGRAPHY of a transgender identified person and in the community she is still called a trap.

Maybe some examples will help.

Here is a character that is a TRAP in the true original sense of the word

He is forced by others or by circumstances to cross dress and/or is somewhat feminine looking. Other people impose a feminine … or non masculine gender on him.

Characters who dress and live 24×7 across gender lines are by the definition of the term used by the WHO and APA transgender. Jun, Hideri, Daruku, Hibari … they all internally generate their motivation to dress and live across gender lines. No one forces them, even though they don't "lie" about it if it is relevant.

Here is how a big anime fan with a male voice put it quite well. It is CONTEXTUAL… but many on this site and around the net don't use it in the non transphobic context.

"Real life people are hardly irrelevant. By that logic one could make a racist cartoon and it should be OK because the people in it are fictional. Clearly we know it is relevant."

It's not comparable. A Looney Tunes cartoon that has a racist depiction of a black person, has that depiction because of the context of the times. They're a representation of the racist stereotypes of black people. Traps in anime are NOT a representation of real life trans people. They're girly men who crossdress, usually for a joke. That's it.

"Hanayome wa Motodanshi (The bride used to be a guy)
That one is an AUTOBIOGRAPHY of a transgender identified person and in the community she is still called a trap."

Those people are assholes then. This has been established. Nobody's arguing that it's ok to call trans people traps.

"Characters who dress and live 24×7 across gender lines are by the definition of the term used by the WHO and APA transgender. Jun, Hideri, Daruku, Hibari … they all internally generate their motivation to dress and live across gender lines. No one forces them, even though they don’t “lie” about it if it is relevant."

THEY AREN'T REAL. The rules of some dumb fucking organsiations DO NOT apply to the mental state of cartoon characters. I'm going to straight up come out and say it, because it's been said before and you need to fucking understand it.

If it isn't stated by the author or within the canon one way or another that the character is transgender, then they're not transgender. It must be EXPLICITLY stated, because to claim that they are when they're not your character is DISRESPECTFUL to the creator of the character.

Also its super obvious you had to dig around for ages for that second vid, lmao it was posted August of last year and it only has 62 views~. You can't uphold your own argument so you rely on the arguments of others.

Demanding that it be explicitly stated isn't reasonable we don't demand that for anything else.

If a character is seen anime working in a doctors office, treating patients, even if no one ever calls them doctor they'd be described as a doctor.

If a character is seen robbing a bank… we'd call them a bank robber.

Come on.

It seems as though you have misunderstood some of the points in my previous post. I will reiterate my point to minimize confusion:

1. My argument applies only to fictional characters, real-life people are not relevant to my argument.
2. Real-life people as far as I am concern can dress and act in anyway that they choose.
3. If a character is transgender and has been referred to such within the work itself or from a canonical source then that is a fact

With that out the way,

Fictional characters do not dress and they do not have lives, they have no will of their own. Fictional characters are a mix of personality traits, motivations, and beliefs implanted into a visual representation that our brains perceive as their physical appearance.

For Trap characters that are not explicitly referred to as transgender in their work, such as the character Hideri Kanzaki from Blend S that you used as an example earlier, their designs are not a conscious decision made by that character; but rather a collection of character design tropes implanted into the character by a character designer for the purpose of appealing to a certain viewing audience.

The same argument applies to the chainmail bikini trope or any character costume trope. If we are lucky then the author will provide some in-universe explanation for why the character dresses the way that they do, oftentimes no explanation is given and we are left to speculate. I always lean towards author or audience appeal.

This isn't a fucking case of "if it walks and talks like a duck", these are cartoon characters whose personalities are made out of stereotypes and tropes, like all characters.

You're implying that because these characters crossdress for a significant amount of time during the day and act girly, that anime writers CAN AND MUST address them as transgender, because of your stupid preset rules, and because, these fictional characters, apparently tick some checkboxes for being trans made by some irrelevant organisations, therefore totally ignoring the wishes of the authors and creators, so that you can have warm fuzzies knowing that the cat boy in a dress is relatable to you.

Professions are not the same as genders. If he dresses like a doctor and does doctor things, yes, he's probably a doctor. If he dresses like a girl and looks like a girl and acts super girly, he could be doing it for fun, or it's their kink, or it makes them happy, or they could just be a feminine man, and i could go on and on and on about what they could be. They COULD be trans! But if it's not explicitly stated, if NONE of these things are explicitly stated, then they are not so, and to say that, despite NO canonical evidence, they are trans because of the way they act, is super fucking disrespectful to the author.

Your personal feelings on that you can't relate to these characters because they're not referred to is totally irrelevant and unimportant, that's entirely what this is about. You're upset that these characters walk around in girly clothing and act like girls, but they're not trans. So you're trying to make it so, regardless of the wishes of the authors and writers.

If nothing in the canon says they're trans, then they're not trans. Traps are not representations of trans people. They are fictional. You cannot equate them to real people.

You do not listen. You do not properly rebut. You keep getting fucking offended with what we say, and you ignore entire paragraphs of our posts because you don't have anything to come back with.

You are here to preach. You are here to forward your own agenda. You're offended by fictional characters. Re-evaluate your life decisions, and please actually go help the trans community by doing something positive for trans folks in your local area, and donating to charities, instead of bitching and moaning about traps on a meme documentation website. We are here to document information, regardless of the offense it causes.

Fuck.