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Inspired by the revelation in canon that Ferris/Felix Argyle thinks of themselves as a woman when they look in the mirror

The key to knowing this MAY BE inner dialog

Since this has been posted all over the net I won't repeat the links. Google Ferris canonically trans and numerous references come up. She thinks of herself as a girl when she wakes up.

Ferris says this of herself.

Yet knows that biologically she is male. Using words for herself "male in body and spirit' which pre op trans women use in Japan before they have the op. This confuses many because in Japan they conceptualize all this differently AND in the west those who are not trans have the wrong idea about the inner thoughts of those who are. We are not delusional we know what our bodies are they just don't fit with how our minds say they should be.

The whole problem may be that we rarely hear the inner dialog of the character and only see them through the minds eye of the main character. The main characters being like most people see the character like Ruka Urushibara in a purely sexual light. As someone they want to have sex with but are feeling conflicted about perhaps….

Required viewing.

We'll never get that kind of inner dialog from Ruka's perspective. Therefore viewers are free to think that somehow, someway, a character that dresses like a girl in all circumstances is just a guy who likes to dress up and magically looks feminine. We'll never see her trip to the threading salon or the electrologist or to the pharmacy to get hormones…. so it's just magic.

The question I hope we can debate:Is a piece of the characters inner dialog where they state, possibly even using the English word "transgender" , that they feel like the opposite gender the only circumstance where a Otoko no ko (trap) should be translated as trans?

Pls keep ur western degeneracy out of my animu, thanks.

Ok I'll keep it out of animu when ever I see an animu. In fact we have laws against putting it inside animu.

I would just like to point out that in many Asian countries they consider there to be three genders or four; the most common ones are male, female and other.

Contrary to popular belief in the west traps and such are not looked down upon in the east; hell some countries even idolize them and call them holy people.

To the contrary I insist you keep your disgusting anime shit out of my Western culture, thanks.

Other than like the very tip of Siberia and a few small islands, New Zealand is as East as you can go.

This is not really what I am here to discuss. John Money thought one could take a normal male and make them be female.

Transwomen are not normal males. No one makes us do anything. In fact his experiment is regarded as showing that a persons sense of gender is innate and NOT socialized.

Last but not least the whole premise that gender is a word coined in 1955 is false since it was used in the sense of male or female from the 15th century in English. >

The question is this:

Taking as a given that transgender women exist. Is the only way an anime otokonoko "trap" character should be translated as canonically transgender if we get a piece of their own inner dialog stating so using the word transgender? Can we really not infer this from their behavior?

No, it's what i'm here to discuss, given this is a dead topic you've tried and failed to argue multiple times in the past. Traps are the way they are to fit into a niche fetish, they say what they say and do what they do in order not to shatter the illusion, and make their character more appealing to the viewer, not to make a statement. hence the label "trap".

They're indeed males, just ones with a mental disorder, (assuming they aren't just taking part in the "trend") I don't say that to be inflammatory or insulting, it's a medical fact.

"modern context", the way "gender" is used now is in no way similar to how it was used several hundred years ago, hell, back then it can be argued to not even be relevant since they were referring to one another based on their sex, with only minor exceptions for when a woman was pretending to be a man for reasons of claiming power.

Can you please stop with this "are traps trans" nonsense. It's not really that important in the context of the series they appear in, and is more people trying to instill their values into a character unrelated to the author's intent.

For all intents and purposes, traps (or otokonoko) are males who look like women, either for an ulterior motive or personal preference. If the author intended a character to be trans, I think it would be pretty clearly stated or implied rather than putting all this guesswork into it.

REAL THOUGHT

Trans gender beings, are not discriminated by me. I am one to respect a being's life choice and to support that said person if they are considerate and a respectful being as well. If you are trans and let someone know in the few dialogues of conversation with another person please do so. That way you won't be a "trap" and no confusion will be involved. I am straight, and if a trans "hits" on me I politely refuse. nothing to be bothered from, and as a straight male, the same social pressure is implied to women I ask to get to know better.

Traps I feel, are transgender's that pretend to be a woman/male in order to fuck men/women (same sex ofc). Which causes all the drama. (Just thinking with common sense)

You can deny what you see, but it is real. It's something to consider as far as social integration is placed in the matter.

@BarrenOBeefDip I am not here to debate the mere existance of transgender women or psychology. The question is do "traps" have that exact same psychology? How about if the author states it.

No we can't stop with it. The topic is not dead as long as real life transgender women of all cultures walk the face of the Earth.

That said you seem to agree with the premise of this particular thread. Do you know there are people who would deny that Ferris is more or less declaring herself to be transgender, acknowledging her biology and her inner sense of self. She wakes up looks in the mirror and says she's a pretty girl every day. That is Transiest thing a character could do short of having an SRS letter from a PhD'd psychologist in the story.

What we differ on is that to me it is not guess work to see a person who is XY male dressed as, and acting as, and living as a woman 100% of the time and conclude they are transgender. Maybe it takes one to know one? If you want to dispute that I am no longer interested in arguing it.

If the word was applied in this manner no one would have a problem with it. It would be based on how the character acts… do they try to trap other characters or are they honest about their biology when it matters?

The problem arises because many fans will argue their right to call any male living as, identifying as, and passing as a woman 100% a "trap". To them the whole reason such characters or real life people exist is to trap them. The whole world is about them an their special little place.

I would love to make a joke about the misspelling of "canon" in the title and claim trap lovers need to be shot out of a cannon at tremendous speed, but this is still Serious Debate (see how cleverly I still got the joke in). No need to talk about Western Anime, shitpost, or point out how you believe OP smells like poop over just an OP.

Also OP, this forum has very neat features like blockquotes and breaklines. You don't need 3 posts, please take that in mind. Doubleposting isn't preferred regardless of content, and your posts have around 5 minutes inbetween them while we have an edit time of 30.

---

The question I hope we can debate:Is a piece of the characters inner dialog where they state, possibly even using the English word “transgender” , that they feel like the opposite gender the only circumstance where a Otoko no ko (trap) should be translated as trans?

Simple answer: Sure why not.

Deeper answer: Anime isn't exactly the best medium to hold this argument over. It's the place of "Draw a child, say they're 40, claim it legal" and "Draw a girl, call it a boy".

Then again, at the same time, anime translations have influenced western slang for a long period, and the terms it brought forward have certainly evolved. To go into trap: It's a western term that used to have the meaning many still give it, a character that tricks the viewer into believing they're not their actual gender. The cause of this were the classic traps like Bridget when traps were still fairly new to weebish media and people actually fell for it (as evident through a lot of ancient NSFW content of Bridget drawn as a girl).

But with westerners identifying as traps and the trap tag become a common occurance in doujinshi over recent years, that old meaning has become void. Nobody's gonna be tricked anymore, saying it's a trap by itself destroys the meaning it used to have. Current day usage and identifying as a trap has made trap more related to the term "crossdresser" than the term "trick". Very bluntly said, a trap is nothing else but a junior crossdresser: twinks who like girly shit before they start growing hair in places they didn't even knew existed.

Linguistically, "a male trap" is just a pleonasm.

So in that sense to your question: Sure why not. Trap has evolved due to its much wider presence, but if a character has more in common with transgenders than traps, further evolution into making traps a catch-all term could end up mashing traps together with transgenders which I'm assuming not all traps are fine with. If translations are clearer on what applies, traps will maintain their status as a seperate group from transgenders and transgenders in return get some representation in.

But that still brings up the issue that it's anime, the "draw a girl, call it a boy" territory, so when a character has developed to a point that a certain term should be used is completely arbitrary unless pointed out by the author; charaters with bad character development (aka 90% of hentai doujinshi) are up for anyone's grabs.

Traps aren't trans and anime is a shitty medium to use in order to prove what your point is

Thanks for a thoughtful reply. FWIW this is what another transgender person had to say about many of the types of responses we get when we try to have this conversation. The issue many commenters have is that they don't see the transgender phenomena as legitimate. Much like some real life trans-attracted men who are specifically into pre-op or non-op transwomen… the idea that their objects of admiration might on some level want to "cut it off" terrifies and disgust them.

Hence they are more comfortable thinking about us as simply a type of dude who just happens to dress like a lady and somehow by some applied phelbotinum or magic we look like girls (Hormones guys … if ANY of these people were real they'd have to be on estrogen to look like that past 18. This is not just about anime it effects real trans women in real life. The rest of this is not to you but to the room.

Consider a young possibly trans person who is into anime.

They read a novel or Manga or see an anime with a "trap" in it. They become part of the fandom and hear about how traps are cool and transgender people are nasty and awful and crazy and disgusting and so forth. But they are aging. While they are young and can look cute dressed up all is well but then facial hair creeps in. They do some reading about those grown up decent looking real life trans women and find out that they use hormones. They find out that they are one of the people a fandom they became a deep part of think are disgusting. How do you think that makes people feel?

That said I'm actually not trying to debate that right now What Random man said makes sense.

At least some characters are in fact transgender. Namely those who are dressing and living as a gender other than the one that lines up with their birth sex and gender 100% of the time and who are honest with anyone who ask or in any situation where it is relevant. My favorite example Daruku Hoshino (Fun fact the name like so many has two translations it can tranlate as Languid Star or Dark Star) She even avoids bathing with the girls or boys which would mean exposure of her parts to either sex.

While other characters are clearly just traps Hime Arikawa of Himegoto is forced to cross dress. Though there are signs that he's into it since Arikawa cross dresses at times when no one is there to force the issue. To me that is what a trap is. Someone who is not expressing some core identity but someone who is trying to decieve.

My point?

trans·gen·der
transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/
adjective
adjective: transgender; adjective: transgendered

denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

That describes at least some of the characters disparaged by the word trap. If you just got comfortable with the idea that there exist real life actual transwomen you might like … say Bailey Jay (N S F W TO THE MAX), or maybe this one a bit of a UK politician? How are they not the same thing as the characters you so enjoy reading about?

Mod edit: No linky to porno. People can Google her if they want to view. -Verbose

They're not the same thing because those people are transgender and you're trying to argue that traps are transgender.

They're not. It's been explained to you that they're not. It's been explained to you why they're not. You've been told by people who identify as femboys or traps on this site (including me) that they're not, and why they're not. And yet you keep spouting this shit because… Well I don't know why.

Do traps in anime trigger you or something? Is it like, offensive? What the hell is your motivation here? Why are you fighting for the rights of cartoon characters to call themselves transgender or whatever? THEY'RE CARTOONS. And are therefore beholden to the wishes of their creators. You're out here bitching about anime when there's much more important transgender-related things you could be helping with, rights and such. Go be useful to real trans people. Cartoon characters don't need your pity or concern.

It's a case-by-case basis. Natsuru did a nice post breaking down a number of examples the last time we did this conversation. A couple of characters for whom the label is used could be seen as trans or as actually having some form of gender dysphoria, but a lot of others could be seen as crossdressers/transvestites or merely expressing themselves.

I understand dissastisfaction with the term "trap" and personally try to avoid its use but I don't think blanket statements like "all traps are transgendered" or attempts to give differing characters the same widely-applied label are very helpful to the notion of individual expression.

They don't trigger me. Since in Anime, in Japanese the word "trap" or something that translates to "trap" does not appear. The word they use is "otoko no ko" meaning "male daughter" or "mans daughter". Either of which sound like the word Katoey "lady boy" and other such which are well known local words for "trans woman".

Those are just indisputable facts of language.

What I am asking is if a character's inner dialog says that they think of themselves as a girl even if they never say it out loud are they transgender to you guys then?

I argue that such internal dialog taken with their outward appearance add up to being transgender. Just by the definition of the words … a male living as a woman and identifying internally as a woman is transgender. You could argue that the word "trap" is not transphobic… but total erasure of a group certainly is. It is a sort of digital genocide.

I like this response it is thoughtful. The thing about this particular individual expression is that the real life actual human beings who identify as traps oh so very often come out as transgender. Not necessarily wanting an operation. … but they live as and identify as a woman.

Never said ALL in this thread. Merely asked about ones who like Ferris we now have a internal dialog where they identify as a pretty girl etc. As for the proposition that trap is transphobic….

Proof of the transphobia in the words use was provided by the comments under this meme from another user featuring a real live person who started out id'ing as a trap but then came out as trans.

Quod Et Demonstratum

One of your examples was Ferris looking in the mirror and calling himself "a cute girl". Now I've never seen Re:Zero but I did some research, and at one point he says he's "male in body and soul".

So when he says he's "A cute girl" he's not saying he's trans, he means it more he LOOKS like a cute girl, which is the entire point of his character. A character or person acting feminine does not inherently make them trans. In fact the author has straight up said he's not trans, and given a reason as to why he dresses and acts the way he does (Apologies for the small image)

Personally I couldn't give two fucks about a character's inner dialogue. Obviously a character being trans doesn't need to be super on-the-nose but 9/10 in anime, they're a trap, not trans. This is why using anime for your argument is a REALLY fucking dumb idea, because Japan has an absolute shit relationship with LGBT people and characters. Stop trying to push your "representation" agenda onto cartoons from a vastly different culture.

A trap is someone who is content with being a guy but enjoys crossdressing as a girl or looks like a girl, despite being a boy.

A transwoman is someone who has gender dysrophia, hates being a guy biologically and does everything she can to change her gender, sex and identity.

Why is this so hard to get?

And on this topic, no, traps are not a slur, that's like saying retarded is a slur, the regressive left is just looking for things to be offended by when they go "traps are offensive to trans people".

Believe it or not, there is a whole group of people out there who enjoy crossdressing while not suffering any dysrophia and are content with their current gender, but i guess that group completely invalidates sjws narrative doesn't it.

If anyone tries to tell you to stop using traps because it's offending anyone, take a trip down their twitter lane and in their history you're likely going to encounter a lot of juicy regressive leftist bullshit lol.

Either that or they liked TB too much to disavow him after he embarassed himself in front of thousands at cuckscon.

Let me illuminate this for you guys more..

When someone who as you imagine has gone through no procedures not even psychological screening or the proper paper work and goes to school as a girl this is the result.

When someone who has done what it would take to do this and look at all reasonable as the chracters you mention do this is the result.

In frank plainness which of those people is more like Jun Watarase? Obviously … the one who has done all the procedures.

F F S

You're looking too deeply into this. Like, you're seeing implications that aren't there at all. None of this has anything to do with transgenders in bathrooms. None of this has to do with transgender rights, no matter how much you want it to.

You need to understand that your argument that trap characters in anime are trans because (insert flawed propaganda bullshit here) is flawed, because you're looking for things in a fucking CARTOON that aren't there. You're looking for traits in FICTIONAL CHARACTERS that aren't there.

I will go through your stupid list and debunk it.

1. Because they usually say so. They almost always do.
2. Yes
3. No, but they do, usually.
4. Yes and no, more they have to state that they are straight up transgender, but if you actually fucking understand gender dysphoria, you'd know that it's a very mentally taxing condition, and people with it would give anything to be comfortable in their own body. We do not see this in the vast majority of "trap" characters, therefore, they are not transgender.
5. Yes, they are almost always the former.

I'm not saying there are no transgender characters in anime. I'm sure there are. But that's not your point, is it? You're trying to pick apart the inner workings of characters who are almost EXPLICITLY traps, not trans, and putting definitions and applying rules to them that you've pulled out of nowhere. You are, effectively, disrespecting the writers and creators, who are from a very different culture, to forward an agenda.

You could be doing so much more to help the transgender community, but instead you are constantly trying to convince the users of a meme documentation website that "traps are trans and also trap is a slur", while ignoring everyone else's debunking of your arguments because they don't fit into your little rules.

Since calkarot mostly covered the argument with the OP, i wanna take a second to open a brand new argument here.

Barren why are you unironically taking a video clip from a very famous /pol/lock who spends his time trying to be metokur but even more to the right.

No this doesn't prove your point nor are you making any sensible arguments against the OP. This only proves that you think one madman's forced experiment on a man with zero gender dysrophia means everyone undergoing gernder dysrophia is just dealing with fucking nothing, and should be put on meds that constantly makes them stay dormant until they commit suicide.

Of course E;R is trying to use this as a part of his agenda when trying to act as if SU is the antichrist, of course his comments section will be full of people who thinks it's "degeneracy" or "liberal mental sickness that should be exterminated", my question is, why do you think this can pass on KYM.

Almost all of us are centrists, we're not the right winged echochamber you are looking for when trying to post this sort of content asking for validation.

This video and your other comment only proves you know nothing about gender dysrophia, crossdressing, what "mental illness" means and what traps are.

If anything I am trying to chance the default assumption from "trap" to "trans"? Put another way that the correct translation of "Otoko no ko" is transwoman . At the same time trying to educate you all on the facts about trangender women. In particular the myth here that it requires surgery to be one which is at best a half truth.

As far as obvious traps

Ok. Lets narrow it down.

When does Jun Watarase… regarded by many here as a "trap" say why I love to be a guy? In an OAV made for the purpose she gets a magical sex change and is overjoyed and PAINED when she has to give it up.

When does Ruka Urushibara say they love to be a guy. Ruka ko actually re writes the history of the universe to create an alternate timeline where they are born female. Yet to you that does not say trans?

When does even Daruku Hoshino act like she wants to be or sees herself as a guy? When they go to the hot springs town in that show.
Girls bathed with girls.
Buys bathed with guys
Daruku bathed in the room alone which is something a gender dysphoric person who is embarrassed of their parts would do.

I can go on and on and on like that.

That video shows the real reason that 90% of the people who defend the word trap do so.

Transphobia.

It is their big chance to disparage transwomen by branding all representations of us as simply being there to trap them.

If anything that should be enough of a reason to discourage it's use unless an anime/manga/light novel actually says "trap" in it. Translating the non offensive "otoko no ko" which means "male daughter" literally as "transwoman" would make linguistic translational and communicative sense.

To continue to use it when we now know better is beyond my comprehension.

It is a mindset which has been used to justify murder.

Oh and on the idea that this is never used even here in relation to real people.

See reddit /r/traps

https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/124992-traps
https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/334623-traps
https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/124990-traps

ALL of the three that are here on KYM while they may have identified as traps when they were eggs (slang for trans but don't know it yet) now identify as trans women and the images of them used are from when they were trans women.

Yeah…this thread is going nowhere

You keep going around and around in circles. You want to change the assumption from trap to trans? Well, I'm sorry but that doesn't apply to most anime characters. Majority of the characters you keep listing are traps, with only a handful that could be considered trans, and even then.

You're fighting for the rights of cartoon characters so you don't get offended when people misgender them or whatever the fuck your problem is. I want you to think about that. They're cartoons. They're not real. They're written by people from a totally different cultre.

They.

Are.

Not.

Real.

Stop trying to make it so we refer to these characters as trans under your bullshit rules and definitions.

NOT JUST CARTOON CHARACTERS

There are real actual people impacted.

It is offensive for the same reason this cartoon here is racist.

This is about the population of people who those characters are representations of. Your insistence that they are not trans is just so that you can pretend that there is no group that should be offended. </b

This is not going anywhere, and as June PRIDE MONTH approaches expect me and others to bang away on this drum until you get it. This is not acceptable.

Let me put this another way for you using some nice clean images.

Are the people in these images traps or trans (Or maybe this kind of an image is a trap but the person in the picture isnt hmmm)?

This is of someone who goes by the name AishaX on various cam sites.

Again the word and MEME are NOT JUST USED for cartoon characters so why not this one?

"This is about the population of people who those characters are representations of."

Traps don't represent anybody, if anything they came first. The term trap, in this context, COMES from anime.

Who is impacted by this? Seriously? Your feelings are null and void. Nobody cares if it offends you. It's a non-issue.

There are people out there who identify as traps. If, however, a person calls a real transgender woman a trap, they're an asshole. But nobody is going around murdering trans women, then claiming "They trapped me". That doesn't happen, dude.

"Your insistence that they are not trans is just so that you can pretend that there is no group that should be offended."

See, now your little argument is cracking even further, and I think so are you, to be accusing me of such things. It's true, no one should be offended by trap, but my insistence on calling these FICTIONAL CHARACTERS traps is because that's what they are. Traps. Not trans. That's not debatable.

"This is not going anywhere, and as June PRIDE MONTH approaches expect me and others to bang away on this drum until you get it. This is not acceptable."

"Others" Yeah, you're pulling that out of your ass, fam. You don't have an army backing you with an anti-trap agenda. You're just by yourself.

As for the images, the first one is clearly either a pre-HRT trans woman or.. a real life trap. Which, as I've mentioned, some people DO call themselves. We wouldn't know which unless the person says so. If they are trans, then yes, calling them a trap after the fact we know this is a shitty thing to do. Beforehand though, is an honest mistake.

I'm not sure what your point is with the second one. Your implication is that they're a post-op trans woman. So if people are calling her a trap, yeah, they're assholes

No one is disputing whether or not it's ok to call trans people traps, that's just an inherently shitty thing to do. Only assholes do that. But you, you are trying to argue that the use of the word trap within a cartoon context hurts real people. It doesn't. It never has. You've provided no proof of this. Hurt feelings don't count.

Trap is not used to justify murder.
Traps are not trans.
Anime is a shitty medium to forward your agenda.
You don't rebut arguments, and you flat out ignore others.
You keep trying to push your point without explaining why you're right.

This is going absolutely nowhere. I'm tired of this argument, and honestly I'm tired of your ignorance. You don't want to listen. You don't want to argue. You want to preach. You're here to forward an agenda, and anyone who tries to argue with your ideals is wrong in your eyes. That is not how you change minds. You change minds and worldviews by having compelling arguments, evidence and respect. You have none of these.

Your argument is a failure. Do something useful with your life instead of wasting it here.

While i agree with most of what you say calkarot, that last comment was a bit rude honestly, telling OP that no one cares about their feeligns and what not isn't really necessary imo.

I was referring in regards to their feelings on the matter, specifically on how they're offended by the term trap. I could have probably relayed that better but whatever.

The fuck, I didn't say traps came before transgender people. I meant Traps in anime came before Traps IRL.

Also nice you just proved that you don't actually read what people say to you, you just glance over it and go back to posting your agenda.

Why this matters

https://tdor.info/ for a list of trans women killed for "traping" men. Which is usually a plainly false allegation. They were killed for being themselves and not wearing a sign around their neck saying it.

Whether they identified as "transgender" in quotes or not.

This is the list for the United States of America in 2017

India Monroe, aka India Thedarkvixen
Newport News, Virginia, USA
21-Dec-16
Multiple gunshot wounds.

Mesha Caldwell
Canton, Mississippi, USA
4-Jan-17
Shot to death

Jamie Lee Wounded Arrow
Sioux Falls, South Dakota, USA
7-Jan-17
Undetermined

Jojo Striker
Toledo, Ohio, USA
8-Feb-17
Shot to death

Jaquarrius Holland
Monroe, Louisiana, USA
19-Feb-17
Shot

Tiara Richmond aka Keke Collier
Chicago, Illinois, USA
21-Feb-17
Shot

Chyna Gibson, aka Chyna Doll Dupree
New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
25-Feb-17
Shot to death

Ciara McElveen
New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
27-Feb-17
Multiple stab wounds.

Alphonza Watson
Baltimore, Maryland, USA
22-Mar-17
Shot to death

Kenne McFadden
San Antonio, Texas, USA
9-Apr-17
Drowned

Chay “Juicy” Reed
Miami, Florida, USA
21-Apr-17
Shot to death

Mx. Bostick
New York, New York, USA
4-May-17
Attacked with a metal pipe on the 24th of April.
Note: There has been a lot of confusion as to the gender identity of this individual. What we do know is that they were born male, and that they did for a period of time live as a female. At the time of their death, they were homeless and presenting as male. As such, we have put a gender neutral designator on this name, and are using they/them pronouns. As with every case presented, any additional information would be desired.

Sherrell Faulkner
Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
16-May-17
Passed away from injuries sustained in a November 30th, 2016 attack

Imer Alvarado
Fresno, CA
17-May-17
Shot
Note: Alvarado did not identify as a transgender woman, but as a gay male. He was, nevertheless, presenting in female attire at the time of his murder, and this may have had a part in this death.

Kendra Adams, aka Josie Berrios and Kimbella Rosé
Ithaca, New York, USA
13-Jun-17
Murdered and burnt

Ebony Morgan
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
2-Jul-17
Multiple gunshot wounds

TeeTee Dangerfield
College Park, Georgia, USA
1-Aug-17
Multiple gunshot wounds.

Gwynevere River Song
Waxahachie, Texas, USA
12-Aug-17
Shot

Kiwi Herring
Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
22-Aug-17
Shot by police in suspicious circumstances
Note: While Herring was killed by the St. Louis Police Department, allegedly while brandishing a knife at officers, there were circumstances surrounding this death that were anti-transgender in nature, including threats and actions from a neighbor that led to the confrontation that led to Herring’s death.

Anthony “Bubbles” Torres
San Francisco, California, USA
9-Sep-17
Shot
Note: Like Imer Alvarado, above, Bubbles did not identify as a transgender woman. He was, nevertheless, presenting in feminine attire at the time of his murder, and this may have had a hand in this death.

Derricka Banner
Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
12-Sep-17
Shot to death

Ally Lee Steinfeld
Licking, Missouri, USA
21-Sep-17
Ally was stabbed, including wounds to the genitals. Her eyes were also gouged out. Her body was burned in an attempt to conceal evidence of the crime, and some of Ally’s bones were put into a garbage bag placed in a chicken coop near the residence.

Stephanie Montez
Robstown, Texas, USA
26-Oct-17
Multiple gunshot wounds

Candace Towns.
Macon, Georgia, USA
31-Oct-17
Shot to death

"Trap

TRAns
Panic"

Dat reach tho

Yes, the first three letters of trap and trans are T R A. Take off your tin foil hat, this is a coincidence. A lot of words begin with T R A.

"It is a legal denfese used to justify killing transgender or gender non conforming people in US law and British Common law going back as long as we have records."

Citation needed. Like, provide the actual law itself that says or implies this.

"Why this matters"

It doesn't.

As for your long list of murders, not every trans person who was murdered was murdered because they were trans, or for the sake of this argument, because the murderer felt "trapped." In fact… that's probably the LEAST likely reason for their murder. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that majority of the gun deaths were robberies or muggings, with everything else probably, and high regrettably, hate crimes.

It is very unfortunate that trans people are murdered, but I think it's very disrespectful of you to use their deaths as a means of forwarding your argument, despite lack of evidence. The website does not provide motive for murder, so saying that "traps" are the cause is projection on your part, mate.

Edit: Ok i 'm still trying to work this out in my head, do you HONESTLY fucking think Trap is an acronym for Trans Panic? Which isn't a real thing? Which is apparently derived from Gay Panic, which was NEVER a real legal defence. Like… really, dude? How tf did you come to the conclusion that it's an acronym??

Your post makes the point for me about what kind of person thinks this word is at all a good or appropriate general label for a character or a class of people IRL. (Not merely as a situational or contextual label which could still be OK.)

What point is that? No one in this thread has made the argument that the word trap is an appropriate label for real people.
The person you are responding to said pretty much the opposite, that the word be reserved for fictional characters.

The problem is that in reality it is used in various context for real actual people.

EXAMPLE 0 Bailey Jay who's even got a meme about this on KYM

She is a completely out pre/non op transsexual now. That said in this context at an anime convention is about the only time you should use that word… even then IRL it may be asking for trouble.

KYM IT SELF SAYS THIS FOR THE LOVE OF….

"Bailey Jay Granger (birth name Bryan Griffin), also known as Line Trap and Harley Quinn, is a transsexual pornographic actress, adult model and podcaster. She became an internet sensation as a trap thanks to imageboard 4chan."

EXAMPLE 1 from Japan Satsuki who uses the word "otoko no ko" for herself. This is the word that is incorrectly translated as trap.

Those two concrete examples show that it is plainly false to say that this word is never applied to real people.

Denying that the characters are nothing less than drawn representations of actual transgender women given the above two examples is to deny obvious reality.

Accepting the reality proven and cited in this message can we continue a serious reality based debate or are we going to continue to deny a clear an obvious reality.

Oh and let me clarify that in the above images the top one is AishaX the bottom one calls herself lindamichellets. (If Baily Jay can be mentioned here what harm in the names) I just wanted to make sure the photos are credited right.

Both of those people are real actual transsexual women about whom wheter or not it is gay to find them attractive is a thing. Just like asking "Are Traps Gay".

On the matter if traps (In the sense of the full time 100% always shown in girl clothes living like a girl) character == a representation of real life 100% full time transwomen …. case closed.

You quoted my post but your reply is not relevant to the context of my post.

My original comment stated that no one in the thread up to that point had made the argument that the word trap is an appropriate label for real people and indeed no one had. I say up to a point in the thread because now your recent comment states that real people refer to themselves as traps. Your comment that I quoted seems to implied that the word trap is not a good or appropriate general label for a character or a class of people IRL. But now you gives examples of traps who are actual people and label themselves as such. Is it now an appropriated appellation when they use it?

I ask purely out of curiosity, because it should be obvious to anyone that fictional characters are in no way a representation of real life people. Traps in Anime and Manga are fictional characters after all. Characters in any work of fiction are products of their authors imagination and any resemblance to any real world instances is purely coincidental.

Satsuki labels herself with the Japanese word Otoko no ko which DOES NOT MEAN TRAP.

Bailey Jay does not label herself as a "trap" these days. Trust I know.

Further proof that these chracters are just trangender consider the mem

Are Traps gay

Who else gets that precise same question asked? In official psychological literature. Transsexuals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_transsexual