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KYM Team Fortress 2 General

Last posted Jul 12, 2014 at 02:20PM EDT. Added Apr 22, 2012 at 10:44PM EDT
860 conversations with 108 participants

I gave the Cola a shot just now and played a full game with it. Mad milk is definitely better. The survival bonus of using the milk (not just for you but your team as well) outweighs the damage bonus of the cola. Besides if you need to mini-crit something, it’s far easier to hit it with the Fan of War

However I’m going to try my trusty shortstop next. I’ve been neglecting it in favor of the scattergun lately but I’m going to give the shortstop one more chance to prove itself.

[edit]

Nah, the shortstop just doesn’t compare. As versatile as it is in most other game modes, in MVM it has much less stopping power compared to the other shotguns.

Soda popper works pretty well though

Last edited Aug 26, 2012 at 03:05AM EDT
Aug 26, 2012 at 02:40AM EDT
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Okay. I’ll admit it. A Demoknight can be good at MvM. A stock medic can be useful in MvM. I just played with both in one match, along with a heavy, a spy, an engie, and my pyro. Didn’t lose a single wave. the demoknight actually found that when the bomb was close to the hatch (Decoy), he could just stand over it and swing, and the Medic saved our butts against a Giant Heavy/Medic combo at one point. It worked well. I will still stand by my assertion that you either need to be super-experinenced with them/only use them at certain times, but they can be useful in the right circumstances.

Aug 26, 2012 at 03:32AM EDT
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I managed to get my team an A+ final rating for the first time today (Never missed any money). Scouting for the win!

Mind you, I did this on Coaltown and that map seems to be the easiest for collecting money because the robots path is simple, wide and open. They rarely die in places where its hard for me to find the money they drop. I collected every cent just by following the same basic path they travel along.

I wasn’t able to do the same on Mannworks though. Not only is the map bigger, but the robots tend to scatter all over the place and that results in $4-8 bucks going unnoticed even with 2 scouts

Aug 26, 2012 at 04:21AM EDT
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BTW guys, I have a Mann vs Machine server situated in Sydney (where all my other servers are actually) You’re all welcome to use it if you wish and have good enough ping:

27.50.71.183:27017

Aug 26, 2012 at 10:23AM EDT
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Well, I just tried it. Still didn’t get past the 4th wave in Coaltown. Damn snipers and large robots are a huge annoyance.

Aug 26, 2012 at 03:54PM EDT
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My first Mann Up mission’s results. Didn’t get any Robot items though.
inb4implying2012implyingnotgettingaplusrankandthenaddingtthatonegeorgecostanzaimage

Aug 26, 2012 at 04:03PM EDT
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So someone kindly donated the Mad Milk they had and I used it, and sure enough, not a bad item, not a bad item at all.

Got through the Coaltown map that was giving me so much trouble.

Aug 27, 2012 at 05:27PM EDT
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My best MvM runs on scout have been on Decoy (which, honestly, seems like the best map for non-engies of any kind – more on that in a bit). The chokepoint right at the start seems to be an ideal spot for a scout to attack first – close quarters (good for scattergun), large amounts of enemies (also good for scattergun), and small area for cash drops (makes magnet powers easier).

Little Engineer-specific advice/analysis:

Like I said earlier up, I find that Decoy is the hardest Engineer map. You still do need one, but the best spot to set up, IMO (the roof of the building right outside the chokepoint), is a bit too far from the front to help initially, and none of the closer spots to set up have the same amount of protective power that that building does.

Coaltown is probably one of the best engie maps: I’ve seen 3 different tactically sound spots for building setups: The two roofs right outside the chokepoint and the alley directly to the player’s left of the spawn. There’s also the building with only one door right after the chokepoint, but I would only use that if there’s a second engineer; I haven’t found it to be very useful running a single engie setup.

Mannworks is right in the middle between the two. The ideal spot for setup (The building with platforms on both sides, right before the rock field, that overlooks both paths) is a bit far from the spawn, but it’s also an excellent spot to have everyone else set up anyways in my experience. The two platforms have a great line of sight over the paths, and give your turret plenty of in-range time to attack, and there are great places on both of them to hide the dispenser. A tele exit also does well inside the building, and is actually the best for keeping it against a sentry buster out of all the maps (On the other maps, you can really only hide it near the dispenser so it’s still close and defended, but inside the building, oddly enough, is just out of the buster’s range, assuming you put the sentry on the right stairs/a bit out from the sandbags [I think that’s what they are] on the left). I would give it best engie map if the building was closer to the spawns.

I find that the Engineer is actually one of my best classes in Mann vs. Machine. It’s really weird, because in Multi I’m absolutely horrid at Engie. Same with Scout, anymore I only use him on CTF to try to just go for a speed & dodge approach / I’m desperate. I feel I got lucky with Pyro, as I’m good with him anyways and he’s an extremely useful class in MvM. I’m sad that medic isn’t too good, as he’s one of my other faves.

Last edited Aug 27, 2012 at 05:52PM EDT
Aug 27, 2012 at 05:51PM EDT
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Well, I was running an LP and I plan on going through all the classes, maybe more then once since it’s an awesome mode. I’ll have to check your advice once I get to the Engie class.

Aug 27, 2012 at 05:55PM EDT
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@Twilightlord

Like I said earlier up, I find that Decoy is the hardest Engineer map. You still do need one…

Try no Engie. Yes, that’s right. I said no Engineer

I’ve beaten Decoy using 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, a Heavy and a Sniper. You see while the map is not ideal for Engineers, it is quite ideal for other classes. Especially Scouts, Demomen and Snipers

Aug 27, 2012 at 11:11PM EDT
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Blue Screen (of Death) wrote:

@Twilightlord

Like I said earlier up, I find that Decoy is the hardest Engineer map. You still do need one…

Try no Engie. Yes, that’s right. I said no Engineer

I’ve beaten Decoy using 2 Scouts, 2 Soldiers, a Heavy and a Sniper. You see while the map is not ideal for Engineers, it is quite ideal for other classes. Especially Scouts, Demomen and Snipers

That’s kinda what I was suggesting. I probably should have worded it more like “An engineer can still play on Decoy and be useful” as opposed to “you still need one” – And I do agree that most other classes are ideal on that map. Snipers can use that roof, or the bridge, soldiers can use either of those as well, Demomen do well in the chokepoint, as do Scouts. Decoy is the best map for a Heavy – The small area they have to go through means a Heavy can lay down suppressing fire. I love running into the area the bots fall into as Pyro and just blasting my flamethrower – but they can also stand back and airblast rockets, ’nades and arrows. While the engie is an important class and can still be used, I find he is least necessary on Decoy.

Also, it’s Twilit, not Twilight. I don’t like to be associated with that book.

Last edited Aug 27, 2012 at 11:24PM EDT
Aug 27, 2012 at 11:23PM EDT
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Guys. The Righteous Bison is the best gun in the universe for MvM. Holy Carp.

Aug 27, 2012 at 11:46PM EDT

I think I’ll go try it now. Message me if you want to join in, I’ll start a party.

Aug 27, 2012 at 11:52PM EDT
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Do you guys have nothing to talk about now that the MVM hype has died down?

I was playing some non-MVM today with Tim. I tried out a slightly different loadout than usual: The Bootlegger, Scottish Resistance, and Half-Zatoichi. Has anyone else tried using the Zatoichi or either pair of demo’s boots without a shield? The extra health from the boots really helped when I got into melee fights, and I seem to be getting better with the Zatoichi in terms of knowing when I can guarantee a kill so I can put it away. It was a surprisingly good loadout. Great for defending a point.

Sep 03, 2012 at 04:45AM EDT
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Actually, thanks for digging this up, Jackal: One thing people don’t realize with MvM engies is that upping attack speed with the wrench also upgrades repair speed. Someone pointed this out to me a few days ago, it really helps against demos and those giants that can really kill your sentry health. Also, Wsxdas is right: the Righteous Bison is an amazing soldier gun. The main problem is you can’t up damage on it, since it’s a sidearm. Don’t use the Cow Mangler, though, as the mini-crit ability charges too slowly and uses too much ammo; I find that even with reload speed, it doesn’t reload fast enough to be useful, either. Stick with the Bison with a crit canteen for massive damage.

Sep 03, 2012 at 01:45PM EDT
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Do you guys have nothing to talk about now that the MVM hype has died down?

Sorry, I’ve been playing Starcraft lately so I’ve had nothing to talk about TF2-wise. We should organize another KYM game. That will get this thread moving again.

Sep 03, 2012 at 10:38PM EDT
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How’s about we give us a new topic to talk about? For example…does anyone have good nicknamed items?

For example: I have a Holy Mackerel named “The Fighting Nemo” and a Widowmaker named “Industrial Resolution.”

Sep 03, 2012 at 10:56PM EDT
We should organize another KYM game. That will get this thread moving again.

How’s this Friday sound? I’m busy working every other night this week, so I won’t be able to play anybody that isn’t nocturnal or from New Zealand. (I swear, BSoD and Millenial Dan are the only friends that are ever on while I am.)

does anyone have good nicknamed items?

I have a nametag, but I’ve yet to use it. I’m not sure what to name yet. I want to use it on my Strange Overdose or Conniver’s Kunai, since they’re some of my favorite weapons. But I can’t really come up with anything clever.

On the other hand, I do have an idea of a name for the Razorback, but I never use it so it would feel like a waste. Since there are so many Spy knives with names referencing backdoor fun, I figured it might be funny to name the Razorback, “My Virginity,” along with a description of something along the lines of, “Strange Virginity: Now tracking Surprise Butt Sex attempts averted.” I might name the Razorback anyway. Sure, I’ll never use it, but it would probably be worth it just to have an excuse to go into trade servers and try to sell My Virginity. BTW, if anyone here wants it, I’ll sell you My Virginity for unusuals. COME ON GUYS! YOU KNOW IT’S WORTH IT! WHO WANTS TO TAKE TAKE MY VIRGINITY!

Sep 04, 2012 at 01:20AM EDT
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How about “The Pomfson 6000”
“What are we gonna do on the point?”

Kytosai thought that one up

Sep 04, 2012 at 01:37AM EDT
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@Jackal

Friday for you will be Saturday for me, I may be at a friends house drinking on that day so that may be a no-go.

Best time for me tends to be any work day evening once I’m done coding. Usually that translates to your early mornings for you folks in the US


@William

I want a name tag so I can call my shortstop “General Exception Error”

Sep 04, 2012 at 01:55AM EDT
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Wow, I finally found this place. Big thanks to Blue Screen of death for leading me here!
Okay, so I’ve acomplished somthing I’ve been trying to do for over 900 hours of gameplay; Get every non-promotional weapon in the game and at least one class-specific hat and misc for each class. I would like to say I’m not bragging, but I am.
Anyway, I’ve been playing medic more and more recently, and I’ve only just noticed that I’ve been using the crusaders crossbow for ages and have completely forgotten how to use the regular needleguns. Anyone have any tips?

Last edited Sep 05, 2012 at 12:10AM EDT
Sep 05, 2012 at 12:09AM EDT
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If any of you are having trouble with killing tanks, a stock melee that isn’t the bat or the knife upgraded with the fastest firing speed works wonders with a crit canteen.
A consistent 195 damage that gets in a lot of hits before the boost expires. Get enough people doing that and the Tank’s down in no time

Last edited Sep 05, 2012 at 12:14AM EDT
Sep 05, 2012 at 12:13AM EDT
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Stunthead wrote:

Wow, I finally found this place. Big thanks to Blue Screen of death for leading me here!
Okay, so I’ve acomplished somthing I’ve been trying to do for over 900 hours of gameplay; Get every non-promotional weapon in the game and at least one class-specific hat and misc for each class. I would like to say I’m not bragging, but I am.
Anyway, I’ve been playing medic more and more recently, and I’ve only just noticed that I’ve been using the crusaders crossbow for ages and have completely forgotten how to use the regular needleguns. Anyone have any tips?

Use a saw instead. One medic to another, I hate the needlegun – you have to adjust for altitude every time, the accuracy is terrible, and it does measly damage. I only use it while running away from just out of melee range enemies to weaken them for an ubersaw kill – or just to survive. In my experience, I can’t get off enough damage with a needle gun to kill offensive classes with one clip – they all miss the enemy and the ones that hit barely scratch. I medi-gun in a large group of allies and ubersaw when in danger.

Sep 05, 2012 at 12:17AM EDT
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I haven’t even used the needlegun in a very long time.
Stick with the Crusader’s Crossbow.

Sep 05, 2012 at 01:15AM EDT
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Use a saw instead.

You have the second lowest health of all the classes. You need to stay alive because the team relies on you for healing. And your advice is to run towards the enemy and smack them? I don’t want to be a dick, but why would you bother offering advice for a weapon if you’re not good with it?

the accuracy is terrible, and it does measly damage

The accuracy is great once you get used to the trajectory, and it does around 11 damage per needle at close-range, and with a fire-rate of about ten syringes per second, that’s a good DPS.

Anyone have any tips?

Most people prefer the Crossbow to the Syringe Gun due to its ease of use, but once you get used to it, the Syringe Gun is one of the most versatile weapons in the game. Now, the first thing you’re gonna think is, “I should aim ahead of the target and above them, then I’ll be good, right?” Well, yes and no. One of the most important things to know is when you should, and should NOT do those things. Only lead the targets if they’re fast: i.e., scouts, pyros, and other medics. Only aim high depending on the range. I can’t really tell you how high to shoot at what range. That’s something you really have to practice with yourself. After a while, compensating for the arc just comes naturally, so I couldn’t really tell you where to aim. Here’s a video I found that shows a bit of the Syringe Gun in action. It might help you get started:




Syringes work best on close-range classes: pyros, demoknights, scouts, etc. Since they have to rush you to do maximum damage, aiming is much easier, so you’re going to be doing a lot more damage to them, a lot quicker. The Overdose is functionally the same, but Blutsauger works better on different classes. Pyros still die quickly, but do a lot more damage in the long run due to the fact that you heal slower after they die. On the other hand, you can survive longer against slower, tougher classes like heavies and soldiers (unless they rocket jump, making them a tough target).

I haven’t even used the needlegun in a very long time.
Stick with the Crusader’s Crossbow.

GOD DAMMIT, GUYS. STAHP IT. STAHP DISSIN MAH FAVORITE GUN.

Sep 05, 2012 at 02:12AM EDT
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You know, I’m good with the needle gun, I just find the crossbow to be much better.

Sep 05, 2012 at 02:21AM EDT
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Well, you’re entitled to your own opinion. But don’t tl;dr, at least. I did say I use the syringe gun at close range, I did say I use the saw when there is no one to protect me, or for me to heal, and I am in grave danger. You essentially repeated most of what I said, but gave the needlegun more credit then I did. And I will admit I’ve gotten some nice longer-range kills, they’re just rare for me. But I don’t want to start anything, so I’m going to stop talking now.

Also, I don’t have the Crossbow right now, so I can’t really compare it to the syringe gun. I kinda wish I had it, though.

Last edited Sep 05, 2012 at 02:25AM EDT
Sep 05, 2012 at 02:25AM EDT
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You know, I’m good with the needle gun, I just find the crossbow to be much better.

Against the close-range enemies I mentioned earlier, those guys are pretty fidgety and quick, and I still think the syringe gun works better. Crossbow still works pretty good on pyros, though, due to his stout, slouchy frame being an easy target. But I believe it works better against engineers, snipers, etc. I’d say it’s about even with the Blutsauger when it comes to fighting heavies: higher DPS from farther, but without the easy healing.

Well, you’re entitled to your own opinion. But don’t tl;dr, at least.

I only said about four sentences to you. The long part was directed at Stunthead, so you don’t need to worry about that. And yeah, it is just opinions. Sorry if I was being kind of a smart-ass, but someone asked for tips with a weapon and your advice was pretty much “don’t use this weapon.” Just because you prefer the crossbow doesn’t mean Stunthead will.

But I don’t want to start anything, so I’m going to stop talking now.

Nah, it’s cool man. I apologize if I was being harsh. I just get annoyed when people downplay my favorite weapons. A little more so this instance since you did that to someone who wanted advice with that weapon.

@Stunthead

I forgot to mention in my last post, syringes have a pretty lenient damage drop-off once you’re good enough to hit most of the shots. And it works great on levels with hills or stairs. I’ve gotten numerous kills on enemies because I shot over hills or stairs from far enough back that they couldn’t even return fire, all thanks to that arc. Also, I just realized I made that video too small. Oops! Here’s the link if you want to see it larger.

Sep 05, 2012 at 03:07AM EDT
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In the syringe guns defense; I will say that you are going to need it if you are dealing with a Scout player that loves flanking Medics,

I say that because because I am AM one of those Scouts that love flanking Medics and let me tell you: the syringe gun is a real pain in the ass.

I have to get close to do damage but a medic spamming the syringe gun is difficult to get close towards. At close range it does a lot of damage to Scouts, has good stopping power and is much harder to dodge than rockets and grenades.

But the Crusaders Crossbow? HAH! I laugh! You will have a damn hard time hitting me with that when I’m running circles around you with the shortstop.

Sep 05, 2012 at 03:25AM EDT
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Blue Screen (of Death) wrote:

In the syringe guns defense; I will say that you are going to need it if you are dealing with a Scout player that loves flanking Medics,

I say that because because I am AM one of those Scouts that love flanking Medics and let me tell you: the syringe gun is a real pain in the ass.

I have to get close to do damage but a medic spamming the syringe gun is difficult to get close towards. At close range it does a lot of damage to Scouts, has good stopping power and is much harder to dodge than rockets and grenades.

But the Crusaders Crossbow? HAH! I laugh! You will have a damn hard time hitting me with that when I’m running circles around you with the shortstop.

Why would you use the shortstop in that situation?

Also, I really piss off Scouts with my Crossbow/Huntsman skills.

Last edited Sep 05, 2012 at 03:59AM EDT
Sep 05, 2012 at 03:33AM EDT
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Because it’s the weapon I use most of the time for its speed and versatility. The scatter may be more powerful but 4 close range hits with the shortstop will still kill a medic.

Sep 05, 2012 at 04:44AM EDT
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@Twilitlord
I do end up using my saw quite a lot due to the high crit chance, but when I’m protecting an uber or somthing else along those lines, I can’t take the risk. Also, I’ve been trying my hand at randomizer recently, so when I get stuck with a needlegun as a primary, I’m pretty much doomed.
@Jackal Lantern
Thanks for the advice. And you’re right, I do end up leading the targets a lot when I would be better off not to. I’ll watch that video when I get out of school /work/ the asylum. Speaking from my own personal style of play, I find the crossbow more useful in more situations, so I think I’m going to stick with it in the long run. But I’ll definitely try to hone my skills with the needleguns as well.
@Blue Screen
I like to think I’m a pretty decent shot with the crossbow, but yeah, scouts at close range can be a problem. Also, I’m glad to see you like the shortstop. I’ve only just recently finished my little stint as a shortstop scout, and when I picked up the normal scattergun again I almost went mad with how slow it is to load. You’re absolutely right when you say that it’s versitile.

Sep 05, 2012 at 07:40PM EDT
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Hey, BSoD! If Friday (Saturday) doesn’t work for you, what about Saturday (Sunday) then? Is everyone good with this Saturday for our big community TF2 game?

@Stunthead
One last tip with the Syringe Gun I forgot to mention earlier: jump around a lot, like you’re playing scout. It makes you a bit more evasive, making it a bit safer to move in closer where you’ll miss less and do more damage.

Sep 06, 2012 at 02:27PM EDT
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I’ve been playing MvM pretty much only with Soldier and I want to switch it up a bit. What’s a good loadout for Engineer?

Sep 06, 2012 at 06:38PM EDT
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For one, DON’T use the gunslinger. The sentries build instantly in setup, and with upgrade buildings canteens, you can get replacement level 3s in seconds.

On main gun, I use the pomfson, if only because the shotgun isn’t very useful and the frontier justice only kicks in AFTER your sentry is killed, which shouldn’t happen if you play him well. You could use the Widowmaker, since you should stand next to your dispenser anyways, the metal isn’t as much of an issue. But I haven’t tried it out yet, so I can’t really say.

I like the wrangler as a secondary. The pistol doesn’t really do much, and you’re already primarily relying on your sentry – use your main as a de facto secondary.

As for a wrench, I like the Jag. When your sentry is killed and you don’t have access to a building canteen, those couple of seconds can be vital.

At least that’s what I think. It seems to be more useful to sacrifice melee damage sometimes in MvM.

EDIT: Wow. Apparently I inadvertently elaborated on Katie C’s loadout. HIVEMIND

Last edited Sep 06, 2012 at 06:54PM EDT
Sep 06, 2012 at 06:54PM EDT
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@Phoneix

What Katie suggested is good. I see most people use that.


@Jackal

Maybe, if I can sober up quickly enough and drive back to my PC in time then Sunday may work. I usually have Sundays evenings free

Sep 06, 2012 at 09:24PM EDT
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For one, DON’T use the gunslinger.
the frontier justice only kicks in AFTER your sentry is killed, which shouldn’t happen if you play him well.

Actually, has anyone tried this combo in MVM? I find the Gunslinger/Frontier Justice can get obnoxious as hell in your average TF2, so I wonder if it can do any good here? Upgrade sentry firing speed so it can get some kills, get metal regen so you can spam ‘em, and get some resistance so you can survive long enough to get some use out of your shotgun. Hell, if you guys won’t try it, I will. Hey, sentry busters won’t even be a threat this way!

Maybe, if I can sober up quickly enough and drive back to my PC in time then Sunday may work. I usually have Sundays evenings free

Alright, great! Red texting so everyone will pay attention, OUR COMMUNITY TF2 GAME WILL BE THIS SATURDAY EVENING.

Sep 07, 2012 at 01:38AM EDT
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I find the Gunslinger/Frontier Justice can get obnoxious as hell in your average TF2

MvM is a different animal from Multiplayer. Against 10-20 enemies at a time, I just don’t see the mini-sentry staying alive long enough to get many, if any, kills, and if you play your credits right, you can build a level 3 sentry damn fast (and keep it repaired with wrench speed).

Sep 07, 2012 at 01:46AM EDT
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I just don’t see the mini-sentry staying alive long enough to get many, if any, kills

I’m gonna upgrade its firing speed and put a little into building health. Enough for it to get kills, but save some cash from building health since I’m planning on sacrificing it anyway. It might work out, it might not, but I’m gonna at least try it.

Sep 07, 2012 at 02:13AM EDT
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Worth a try. I just hope it holds up. My disposable is lucky if it lasts 15 seconds.

Sep 07, 2012 at 02:15AM EDT
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Okay, so I tried that loadout for the engie. I had 35 revenge crits by the time the tank rolled in.

Also, assists count, not just kills. So when I did it again later with another engineer using standard sentries, that actually made my sentry work even better! Nonstop crits! The only thing to look out for are those spies.

I recommend going for sentry firing speed first, then buff its health once. JUST ONCE. If it can’t survive a bunch of explosive spamming enemies, who cares? Let it die and spawn a new one. Stick next to your dispenser and shoot them with the pistol, or use your crits if you’re desperate. Don’t bother buying metal regen. You won’t need it. Put everything into damage resistance, then reload speed and firing speed. My group got an A+ every round, so I even got piercing bullets on the last wave! I used it to take out a Rapid Fire Demo from the other side of the tank as it passed through. And the best part of it all? Sentry Busters don’t even spawn when using minis. I destroyed my turret manually for running out of bullets far more often than any enemy destroyed it.

TL;DR: Gunslinger/Frontier Justice works great on MVM.

Sep 07, 2012 at 07:03AM EDT
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Well that’s the most unexpected thing about MvM I’ve heard so far.

Sep 07, 2012 at 10:20AM EDT
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I don’t have Widowmaker so I’ll try the Frontier Justice. It’s my favourite engie shotgun anyway.

Sep 07, 2012 at 10:43AM EDT
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I unboxed a fall crate.

I got The Bearded Bombardier. IDK how much it’s worth, but I hope to unbox another fall crate sometime soon, if one drops. Also, I posted this terrible thing in the exploitable thread. Well, i’m out.

Last edited Sep 07, 2012 at 11:12AM EDT
Sep 07, 2012 at 11:12AM EDT
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And now, a question! Can I get a price on a white painted dirty tough guy’s toque? I traded a Medi-Mask for one, IDK if I got ripped off.

Sep 07, 2012 at 01:33PM EDT
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Subway Boss Emmet wrote:

And now, a question! Can I get a price on a white painted dirty tough guy’s toque? I traded a Medi-Mask for one, IDK if I got ripped off.

Considering that the tough guy’s toque is a pretty old hat and the Medi-mask it quite new (IIRC)

Sep 08, 2012 at 01:17AM EDT
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burning_phoneix wrote:

I don’t have Widowmaker so I’ll try the Frontier Justice. It’s my favourite engie shotgun anyway.

Do you want one?
I’m selling one for one reclaimed.

Sep 08, 2012 at 01:21AM EDT
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burning_phoneix wrote:

Considering that the tough guy’s toque is a pretty old hat and the Medi-mask it quite new (IIRC)

BUT THE MEDI MASK IS LIKE A KEY AND A WHITE TOQUE IS LIKE 3 REF WHICH IS MORE THAN A KEY

Sep 08, 2012 at 11:05AM EDT
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