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@MontyPython.
Said the same thing in the comments on that picture's entry page. Lol :P

I feel bad for the guy who runs this tumblr. xD

Ooh shipping discussion! Aren't we like, 10 pages late for that, though?

I'm wasn't a fan of shipping at first, but WhiteDiamondLtd's brilliant art has almost singlehandedly changed that. I love how she depicts it, shipping in a friendship sort of way. Nothing intimate or sexual goes on, it's just really cute and diabeetus-causing.

Seriously, the R34 people should stop and all start doing what she's doing.

Enough with the goddam shipping, why do you think we have a shipping thread people? Sheesh.

Don't people flip their shit when ponies are shipped in that thread?

Because it isn't pony shipping?

But if you really want shipping:

Well some people do because they can't take a joke even though I was one of them but still. If your going to flip shit in the form of ships then put it in the shipping thread!

@Doctor Gregory horse the pony medic
No, because we wanted to have a chance to rape other users in a very violent way.

I was about to upvote this before I realized it was American Dad!….

Wow, so much happening around here. I cant begin to comment on it all.

I was going to write a huge discussion on Rics discussion question on page 78 but then I saw the cuteness on this page and I completely forgot what I was going to say.

Oh well, I karma'd Brownmare since my take would be similar to his if I had to be a pony, but if I had the choice to stay human, I think I'll pick that instead.

Now we are talking about shipping huh? That's fine just so long as its the cute and adorable kind of shipping. I like shipping when its dawwwwworthy but if it goes any further than that, no thanks.

As long as it is cute I don't particularly care who is involved whether it's pairing Pinkie Pie with Rainbow Dash or a Timber Wolf. People here like to complain about shippings that don't make sense but I have come to accept the fact that shipping never has to make any sense whatsoever. You just take it as it is regardless of what is involved.

It's the same in real life you know. In real life, relationships don't need to make sense either. Just ask that dude who made the local newspaper by entering a relationship with his grandmother (Yes that happened. Real life can be stranger than the internet, believe it or not.)

Overall I'd say this forum is somewhat tolerant of shipping and I think we need to be because we have some members on KYM who really support the shipping and R34 even though we have others who don't approve of it at all.

I'm not one of them, but you can find them in the MLP image gallery and comment section. They are there. They just don't post on this thread. We still need to be considerate though and remain respectful to Bronies of all kind. That's a responsibility we must uphold for having a large Brony community here.

Lastly I would just like to state for the record that Ivan (to my knowledge) hasn't made a new account here so none of the new users are him. I was just joking about all the new users being all of Ivans alt-accounts

I know this after talking with Ivan. Although he really did want to jump into the discussion on page 75, he never did.

We're talking about shipping and R34?

I can work with this.


This shall be a glorious night!

Hello everyone.

@ric
Don't know if you found it yet, but I think I found the place where that pic of Discord, Nightmare Moon, et al. came from. Still can't find the gif origin.
http://ziom05.deviantart.com/art/Legends-of-the-Equestria-296045689

Oh, and I'll post pony-related pics as soon as I read up on how to work with Textile.
Edit: I think I got it.

I really really really don't like R34 of ponies but I keep it to myself mostly.

@unknownunknown:

Since they're wearing Civil War era uniforms in that pic…no, Mel Gibson's We Were Soldiers didn't come up immediately. :(

@Ric:

Well, there could be more than one Captain.

@Ric Tesla

Here you go. I sought out the source pictures for both the Twilight animation, and the epic piece of artwork. I rememberd seeing the Twilight one on dA, and I was lucky enough to find both of them there.

Happy To See You! by FantasyBlade

Legends of The Equestria by Ziom05 (although I just noticed Nostra found it too)


Too bad I didn't get a chance to finish my Applejack – Suika crossover picture this week. I've been too busy with other stuff, like playing League of Legends, which my friends have been trying to get me into for almost as long as I've been watching FiM.

It's the first PC exclusive game I've played since Fallout 2. The first online multiplayer I've ever played by myself. And the first "real time strategy" since Command & Conquer – Red Alert on PS1. Needless to say, I'm not all that good. But it's still fun though.

I guess that you'll have to wait for the new pic until next saturday.

But since the pic's almost finished, there's a higher chance that I'll get the rest of the set done without skipping a week.


@Shipping discussion

I have to say that I just disregard the typical shipping. I don't like it, but I don't really hate it either. It's the stuff closer to R34 that I find disturbing.

For example, I'm fine with that Lyra – BonBon picture MrGrumpy CitationNeeded posted. But that "FREE Shipping!" picture of Twilight and Trixie Connor posted is already crossing the line in my opinion. I don't want to see that, but I don't bother complaining about it.

And Lyra – BonBon is something I'm fine with, to the point of drawing an actual fanart featuring the two. Too bad the bottom half of the picture sucks.

Free kramas to anyone who gets the reference without rummaging through filenames.

Blue Screen (of death) wrote:

Brownmare

lol

I've been here barely a month and I'm already getting R63'd.
Misspellings are such fun, ain't they?

Ah, the good ol' "dark side" of the fandom. Now, I know you folks don't like to talk about it and some of you rag on it every chance you get, but hey. If one never steps out of one's comfort zone, nothing will be learned. And sooner or later, something or other is gonna force one out of there anyhow, so one might as well prepare for it.

Let's start with the lighter and softer side of this equation: The Shipping. I think BSoD put it pretty well; cute is good. 'Course, that begs the question of "What is cute?" and I'd wager you'd be surprised at how much people's opinions differ on that matter. But let me tell you this: if you say you don't like shipping, chances are you just ain't found a type of shipping that appeals to you. Take Twins up there, she's had a change of heart about it 'cause she found friendshipping.

Time to take a plunge into the abyss and discuss the dreaded R34 content. I see lots of folks asking "Why?" and to them I say "You don't know a whole lot about artists, do you?" See, a lot of artists are very Bohemian, which means they do what they want and don't give two shits about what the average cunt on the street thinks about it. And it just so happens that erotic artwork is a very appealing pursuit from the artist's perspective. Aside from the obvious reasons, this is because it's very easy to create an emotional and provocative piece by injecting a bit (or lots) of "action" into it. That, and it's challenging. See, if you've ever attempted to draw anything remotely complex, you'll know just how difficult it is to get two bodies interacting to look right. Now imagine that, 'cept the bodies are in an even more intimate position than usual, and bent in all sorts of convoluted ways. Ain't no cakewalk, that. Similar thing with written works, too. See if you can write a sex scene that ain't IKEA Erotica.

But why ponies, specifically? Didn't you listen even a bit when I said "Bohemian"? They don't need any reason beyond a whim, and they don't care 'bout your opinions on the matter. And that's how it should be. After all, who are you to judge certain kinds artwork to be "unwholesome" or "abominable or "inappropriate" or whathaveyou on any other level than the personal one? This ain't the Victorian era no more (which is sort of ironic, considering that some really dirty things got invented in those days).

Now don't get me wrong, it's perfectly alright to not like this stuff. After all, it takes refined taste and learned analysis (read: perversion and overexposure) to truly appreciate it. But don't go automatically condemning people who think differently and like what you don't. We of all people should know that.

You'll probably want my personal opinion too, no? Well, let me preface this by stating that I am a shameless, unrepentant pervert. The only reason I don't churn out porn is that I'm under the constant threat of someone looking over me shoulda. As for why I like what I like? Well, why don't you try explaining why you like your "normal" erotica, without resorting to some sort of cheap justification like "It's the way it should be"? But I'll humor ya. I suppose I just want something exotic, and not some second-rate kind of exotic, something truly outside the norm. That said, I ain't particularly picky. Pretty much anything gets me going, 'cept gore and rape.

Don't worry though, I'm not one for making a huge fuss over it. I know full well that what I find arousing will make most people retch. While I think the lot of you are way too prudish for your own good, I'll refrain from exposing your innocent eyes to forbidden pleasures. Or at least I'll try to. Hehehee.

mfw I saw posts about shipping and R34.

Buzzfeed article on 'What if Celebrities Were My Little Pony Characters?'

>mfw Twilight Sparkle is Zooey Deschanel.
>mfw Applejack is Kelly Clarkson
>mfw Rarity is Rachel Zoe
>mfw Rainbow Dash is Serena Williams
>mfw Pinkie Pie is Katy Perry
>mfw Fluttershy is Taylor Swift
>mfw Spike is Joseph Gordon-Levitt
Nice job, Buzzfeed.

Dude, unrustle your jimmies.

Let people enjoy their fanon.

Why do you think it's called Friendship is Magic.

Well, usually my Jimmies aren't rustled by much. I try to keep as calm as possible if there's something I don't like, or just joke about it to keep my mind off of any sort of anger I feel. Personally, I have some moral issues with what goes on with anything on the internet, after all the crap I had to go through as an adolescent.There's a point for me where something goes from funny, to questionable, to just plain ridiculous. I try to stay away from things that I don't like (that's why I've never visited the R34 sites or read any clopfics willingly). I usually just step away.
I just shake my head normally at that playbrony stuff, but that Twi-Luna thing rustled my jimmies because it was simply ridiculous. "There really wasn't anything else, they had to put that there, didn't they", was what I was thinking to myself when I saw it.
Now I do joke around. I laugh when something's funny. But also, there's just a point where it rustles jimmies for me. Twi-Luna was one of them.

Now, back to my earlier comment:
Was there ANYONE else who thought about "We Were Soldiers" when you saw that pony bayonet picture, or any other movie or thing you remember? And also, would you think that someone could ponify that scene?

Algernon, I think anyone who'se gotten to know me well enough knows why that pic pisses me off. Normally I would just skip over the shipping part, but Luna ships are something worth wasting gas and matches on.

@Brownmane

lol
I’ve been here barely a month and I’m already getting R63’d.
Misspellings are such fun, ain’t they?

Oops! I could have sworn I spelled that correctly. Ugh, sometimes I have my dyslexic moments..

Anyway you ask "what is cute". You are correct that everyone will have their own interpretation of that. However I think I can sum it up for many here if I state that "cute" applies when only friendly and/or romantic gestures are displayed/suggested in combination with the natural innocence that little ponies have about them. Of course some will have a different take on that but I would wager that most here could define it that way.

Here's an example of what I consider a cute shipping scene:

Who agrees with me here? It's not that sensual and lustful looking sloppy neck lick that Trixie gave Twilight up above, instead it a very sensitive and loving peck on the check. It that cute? Yes it is. Admit it, you thought it was cute. Don't lie to me.

It's still shipping all the same. But like you say Brownmare, it's a different type of shipping. One that is more likely to appeal to me. Thus I don't take a hard borderline stance against all shipping.

As for R34, don't worry I don't really care if you like it or not. It's not something I judge people for. Everyone has their quirks. So long as R34 imagery isn't posted here and those who don't like it do not have to see it, then there should be no problem.

Frankly if you posted R34 I still wouldn't care. Perverted stuff on the internet? Meh, nothing new to me. I don't even look up porn but I've simply been on the internet for so long that I've seen it all. After so many years of browsing the net, its only inevitable that I had been exposed to some of the most disgusting of content. It's reached a point now, that whenever people freak out over a bit of cartoon sexuality I just interpret that as immaturity.

I just wanted to add on to your part about "why". You listed a few reasons but the truth is, R34 gets made for literally thousands of different reasons. From simple human nature to very specific task-driven goals. One could go on forever on the subject of "why". I'm not sure if I want to go there.

Interesting how this conversation has steered towards R34 again. It's usually a very taboo topic that we try to avoid because it's been argued many times before in this thread and many more times in comment sections on actual porn images. We seem to be terrified of yet another R34 shitstorm

And yet it seems to be a topic we have a love/hate relationship with. We bring it up at every opportunity.

You have to admit, even if it is taboo, R34 is such a fascinating topic isn't it? The range of emotions it can stir, how deeply it can influence thinking, the sheer scale of the impact it has and vast number of important aspects that there are to discuss and consider.

Sensibility dictates avoidance but our curiosity craves it. It's just so interesting to talk about. I just wish it could be discussed maturely without any drama queening

" Last Moment with Dashie "

Read it the best fanfic in all of MLP here.

I was learned to avoid busy shipping lanes. Fraught with perils they are, and the best that could happen is you piss a bunch of people off.

>that feel when you find out your best friend hates the fact that you're a brony

PAGE GET FOR SOCIAL DILEMMAS.

I have cool friends that don't care if I'm a brony or not.

Agreed. As I said, there's a point where shipping is just ridiculous, like when it's lustful and just "durr lets have sex". It get's interesting for me when the emotions look as if it's sensitive. I don't draw or dwell on it, but it can be fascinating to analyze.
So yeah, usually none of my jimmies are rustled when it's cute like that pic. It only rustles my jimmies when it's ridiculous.

@Star Gazer

Heck, when my best friend and my sister found out I was a brony, they questioned it
I simply was like:

See more on Know Your Meme

They didn't say anything about it after the fact. I still hang around them though. They don't mind my broniness.

Just last night explained to a girl that I animate ponies. Luring her in by playing some of the more subtle brony music when we drive around and such. Haven't mentioned the term "brony" yet, just that there's a lot of people on the Internet who enjoy the animation and voice work.

How proceed?

Show her the .mov series. And then this

Probably a bad course of action. But hey, maybe shock and awe is the way to go.

T be honest, when i watched that again i felt like i was gonna throw up.

>that feel where nobody knows you're a brony IRL, BUT YOU JUST KNOW THEY'RE ALL GONNA FIND OUT SOON AND HATE YOU FOR IT AND NEVER SPEAK TO YOU AGAIN AND OH GOD IT'S TOTALLY GONNA HAPPEN SOON

What do you mean I'm being paranoid?

Anyways, sorry to hear about that. One of my best friends keeps complaining that he can't get moved for bronies at his uni (the lucky bastard…), and that he's sick of constantly hearing about ponies in conversation. I still haven't told him that I'm a brony myself, despite the fact that I know he wouldn't be bothered by it. It's mostly because I want to avoid word spreading to my other friends, since I know that some of them would instantly lose respect for me if they found out (yes, they really are that shallow), and that it would just give them another excuse to make fun of me (yes, they are that cruel. Not sure why I hang out with them tbh). Also, I can't stand awkward confessions like that.

So I heard some of you like cute shipping. You should check out the Ask Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie Tumblr blog. I know it sounds like a really weird pairing, but it sorta works in this case. Everything about the blog is just ridiculously cute.

(I'm pretty sure they invented the 'ponies with juice-boxes' art fad, though I could be wrong there.)

I wonder when people will stop being so shallow and open their goddamn eyes for a change, anyway that fluttershy/pinkie pie shipping, Normally id be one to put my foot down when it come to pony shipping, especially with fluttershy but this whole flutter-pinkie shipping is actually pretty cute and it even made me smile.

@Algernon
Yeah, I kinda told her out of the blue and she seemed cool about it honestly. She hasn't directly said anything to me about hating it, but she has threatened a mutual friend of ours that I tried to turn with "death" if he watched it or became a brony and I'm letting that speak for itself. I dunno, maybe I'm overreacting, but how can she despise the thought of one friend liking it and not another? Either there's a significant difference between the friend and me, or she actually does hate bronyism. I'm confused.

My friends either hate bronies or are disapointed with them. One knows I enjoy all the funny stuff the fandom puts out like .mov and a few other things, but not that I am one. We used to have a brony "friend" (I say that lightly. He's more of an associate. A complete jackass, and still is.) who stopped after a while. Apparently, he wouldn't shut up about it and it irritated the others to no end. So I'm keeping my mouth shut until I can find a way to break it to them.

I assume your goal is romantic and not simply exposing a friend that happens to be a girl to ponies.
 
Scratch all of that tiptoeing. Give her some Twilight Sparkle. B*tches love Twilight Sparkle.

Anyway, if she isn't going to understand it without a lot of explanation, then I personally wouldn't bother. It's likely a deeply rooted problem with gender that isn't going to go away before you'd like the relationship to get close (a few months to a few years.)

If it's only going to require a little explanation, then a simple backstory of how you became a brony should suffice. Suggest she watch an episode or two and maybe let her read this thread and see that most of us aren't insane enough to merit straightjackets. As for leading up to that backstory, then I'd just lead into it with a discussion of what you do in your free time.

"Oh, you know, I post in forums. About (games,) (music…) I post in ones about ponies too. The people there are pretty cool."

"Oh, why ponies? Well, it's a fun show. I learned about it when I…"
 
 
And then you get into her pants. I think that's how it goes.

Please don't take that last line seriously.

As for the shipping (which has shifted into R34 territory,) I think it's something that always spurs a lot of discussion. Since some people are easily offended by the topic and, more specifically, the media with it, people have said that we should avoid it altogether. However, those people don't really appear to be here, and the conversation doesn't appear to be scaring people off.

I'm all for talking about why it exists or what people think of it. Maybe even favorite shipping artists or images. But the same reason we don't allow open explicit media here is the same reason I wouldn't expect to see explicit explicit pony-related media.
 
I think there's an unspoken issue with the fact that these are equine shapes with human characteristics that are cartoons as well.

• Horses don't seem to have much foreplay: they just do it (perhaps Twins and dac can attest to that a little more). Most people don't care to see the act or anything sexual from horses, because it's bestial.
• Humans have loving looks, fondling, licking, biting, dirty talking and other things along with acts that are more "intimately" sexual. Seeing those things in humans isn't going to cause a lot of problems usually.
• Cartoons of all sorts can have any sexual activity. From sex with gore, rape, underaged characters, animals, pain and death, etc. The fact that there is lolicon bothers me to the core, but apparently, it's legal, and enough people enjoy it.

Shipping and R34 have attributes from all of those categories. So it not only makes people feel differently about it, but it also makes any objective or subjective judgement on it difficult.
 
However, I don't think subjectivity or it being difficult to judge means it isn't going to offend people.

• I think that the horse aspect makes anything resembling sexual activity upsetting to some users, especially those who feel strongly about bestiality.
• Some people see the ponies as being more human (and they certainly have more human aspects than horses in how they act,) so I think they'd have less of a problem with it, but would be offended by explicit sexual acts. Some shipping media involves these acts of foreplay.
• And then some people say "It's a cartoon." I personally don't believe that makes it OK to post, but it almost justifies anything before explicit acts for some people.

tl;dr 1: Combining human variety in sexual acts with a general disapproval with bestiality causes jimmies to be rustled.

I'd say that offends more people and to a greater extent that people choose to post sexual shipping or explicit R34 than it does offend people that people do not. That's my take.

It's a utilitarian approach. More utility is derived from not posting sensual shipping than from posting it.
 
tl;dr 2: I don't think anyone is telling people to not enjoy it, but I don't think people should be forced to see it here (with the only alternative being not posting here altogether.)

Dammit.

Missed one. Sorry, Engie. I'll get that chain-smoking french bastard next time.

Iron Will is best Soldier

@Verbose

We are intriuged by your Tl;Dr. Continue

Can someone message me about why these are so popular?

Re: Social dilemmas and all that:

My brother hated bronies at first. He was indoctrinated. I just didn't care, until he indoctrinated me.

The next to fall was our mom…

So, now all the people I actually care whether or not are bronies are bronies. In fact, my mom actually INADVERTENTLY SHIPPED PONIES. I shit you not, my mom literally said "I think that Appleloosa (Braeburn. She sucks with background pony names.) and Pinkie Pie should get married."

God, I love my family. I don't trust my friends with the knowledge of my bronyism, though. They're kinda idiots like that.

See more on Know Your Meme

Well SOMEBODY uploaded the new PlayBrony cover, and guess what! Look in the bottom right corner:

See more on Know Your Meme

see it yet?

There are and will be rustled Jimmies
and it ain't gonna be pretty

This is getting to the point of absoute ridiculousness.
There's a difference between when it's cute, questionable, or just stupid
I always try to defend my position as a brony, but when some dumbass bigot sees something like this, he's gonna say "DURR YOU FAGS. YOU GUYS SUK", and what am I gonna say? He's gonna keep on thinking that, and spreading the wrong word around. We're not all like that (and there's nothing wrong if you're like that), but this kind of crap is what's keeping us down with other internet users
rustles my freakin jimmies
sorry for raging

CLOP

I still don't understand why some people hate bronies or find them weird.

MLP is a cartoon about cute animals.

People on the internet are obsessed with cute animals, many people also like cartoons. Having that in mind, there is nothing unusual about the whole brony thing imho. Yet, people still hate.

>mfw this thread

You're still talking about shipping!?
lol
I need to find the rest of those playpony/playbrony mag covers.
I shall return!

It's a mystery. I don't understand it either. Probably because of the fact it remained taboo for a while until Faust & Co. came in to play, and then we grew like an atomic explosion. It came very quickly, too quickly for many to understand. So instead of trying to understand, they took it as if it were a virus, and quickly started hating.
Personally, the humor in MLP is relevant to my interests. I think it's pretty cute.
I like the fandom, But my jimmies do get rustled when our own community posts something ridiculous.Just BS that is used as fuel for the haters fires.

@Connor
I don't even know why we're still talking about it, nor do I know why I posted the cover. It's just gonna rustle jimmies.

sigh

Someone start a new topic so my jimmies aren't rustled further. I don't like raging, or holding on to anger.

@BSoD

However I think I can sum it up for many here if I state that “cute” applies when only friendly and/or romantic gestures are displayed/suggested in combination with the natural innocence that little ponies have about them.

Well, allow me to be the exception to the rule, then. Not saying I don't find the "innocent" shipping cute as well, mind you, I just happen to find the more lustful depictions to be quite adorable, too. Trying to explain why would be an exercise in futile, circular logic (like any attempt to explain something this metaphysical) but I will say this: Seeing a creature enjoying life is usually a rather adorable sight, yes? The throes of lecherous pleasure are most definitely something enjoyable, are they not? Of course, many consider such displays vulgar and thus would rather not watch (or so they tell themselves) but us more debauched folk have no problem being so unabashedly voyeuristic.

R34 gets made for literally thousands of different reasons. From simple human nature to very specific task-driven goals.

Y'know, I've always found the whole "human nature" explanation to be a bit of a cop-out, regardless of the context and topic. I mean sure, we humans have certain tendencies and all that, but I think beyond the most basic biological wiring, nothing about a given human being is really a sure bet. Besides, isn't the single damn advantage we humans have over the rest of the beasts the fact that we can defy our nature? We can just stand up and shout "Fuck you!" to our more primeval instincts and do whatever we damn well please instead. 'Course, that's easier said than done, but still. This is just a pet peeve of mine, though, so don't take it personally.

It is true that the reasons for R34 are endless. I just wanted to point out some of the more technical reasons why an artist would embark on such an endeavour.

Interesting how this conversation has steered towards R34 again. It’s usually a very taboo topic that we try to avoid because it’s been argued many times before in this thread and many more times in comment sections on actual porn images.

Well, I've always figured that the real problem with sexuality (in general, not just the ol' R34) is that people don't talk about it. Lack of discussion breeds ignorance, ignorance breeds fear and fear breeds hatred. Which is a really nasty thing since sexuality is one of those annoyingly hard-coded things in our psyches. You're shit out of luck if you happen to have a kink that's outside the "mainstream" since you don't have much way of changing it. Oh sure, you can try to repress it, but that ain't gonna work in the long run and you'll just end up being miserable and depressed. Unfortunately you can't go all-out embracing it either, as that will earn you the ire of the masses. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

What makes this whole topic so fascinating, I think, is precisely the fact that it is taboo. We are a curious bunch, and it just so happens that forbidden things are the most interesting ones around. After all, there must be something real cool about it if The Man tells you not to touch it, right?

I'm pretty sure we're all mature enough to discuss this sort of thing without inadvertently rousing up a shitstorm. The key is not to get emotions mixed into it too strongly. I mean, sure, state your opinions and use colourful language and all that, but keep it civil. Ain't that hard.

@Verbose

Yeah, I'd wager it's some type of cognitive dissonance at work rustlin' dem jimmies. The combination of human personality and equine body, innocence and debauchery or just personal turn-ons and turn-offs, any of these can cause some major internal confusion. And people get real touchy when they're going through that kind of turmoil.

@Unkown Unknown

Well, to be fair, them haters gonna call us fags, porn or no porn. 'Course, it gives them ammo, but hey, even if there was no porn, they'd just think we're real good at hiding it. As for him going on a smear campaign? Well, you can always start a counter-campaign to correct the misinformation. As long as you get your voice out there, people are gonna listen.

Ya know what, sorry for posting a lot, but here:

I thought this looked pretty cool, weathered like that. Would work great in a MLP WarFic

Would someone tell me why I ended up in the "evil" row?

I'm not evil…..
sniff
I JUST WANT TO BE LOVED!

You're very welcome, Veggie.

He has a pretty cool OC.

Hay guys I'm back from the beach. :D
(Sorry I could not get on the computer before I left for the beach)
Also thanks Muumi for finding me the source!
As for the rest of the thread:

Plus don't get me started on shipping I witness that first hand…

I don't like to explain much about those experiences…