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Yes, and it’s not relevant because covid is an actual issue

Calling everything fascism has done more harm than good, especially cause when something is fascistic nobody listens.

I think a problem is that people confuse sociopathy with fascism, they are not really the same thing

It's done a tremendous amount of harm. Ignoring the ideology of Fascism and calling anything even remotely left of Mao Fascism by so many progressives online has made it so that they are blind to their own fascistic beliefs. They are blind to what fascism is and who fascists are, and by creating a simple chain of "Violence to Fascists. Who are fascists? Anyone right of me." has manifested deep rejections of even some of the better aspects of their progressive ideals. Actual progressive movements like labor reform, prison reform, better judicial systems, are deeply undermined.

East Asian countries like South Korea, Japan and Taiwan have an advantage over the rest of the world: they neighbor China, which has been the source of many of such pandemics. They know fully well that when there is even a rumor of an unknown sickness in China it's time to bunker up. They also have a lot of experience with this which leads to better planning and execution: targeted quarantines, mass testing, maintaining trust and legitimacy by the authorities – which, to be fair, is easier in East Asian countries than it is in the West because the West, especially in the US is far more critical of the State and culturally more individualistic.

China is definitely hiding it's death toll. It's criminal that it isn't even talked about. It's outright criminal that our News Media takes it at face value. The COVID outbreak has severely impacted global opinion on China, and Chinese culture saving face is a paramount element of society, it's also desperate so sell it's own vaccine variant, that has been viewed with severe suspicion by the world.. It is also how they often conduct their politics. I mean. Come on.

In the United States, more than 825,000 people have died from Covid. China’s official Covid death count is…4,636. The US deaths per 100,000 people is 800 times higher than it is in China. Chinese governments report 0.321 per 100,000 people died from COVID. To put it into another perspective, according to statista Chinese deaths per 1 million (total) is 3.47. Let's compare this to it's neighbors: Japan – 149.54 per million. South Korea – 131.25 per million. Singapore: 150.40 per million. Vietnam: 391.63 per million. Are we really going to sit here and make the case that on average, Japan, South Korea, and Singapore, countries that either deal a lot with China or are neighboring it have 50 times more deaths per million than CHINA? Come on.

Many doctors are saying countries are not reporting the actual numbers. And there are many methods of determining it. The Economist's models show a 7% (later changed to 30%) discrepancy for the US. But using that same model they predicted the Chines discrepency is 17,000%. Using that model estimates that the true number of Covid deaths in China is not 4,636 but 1.7 million. According to China’s official statistics, Hubei has accounted for 97% of all Covid-related deaths in the country. All of the reported deaths in Wuhan/Hubei occurred between Jan 1 and March 31 of 2020. After that, all reporting ceased.

And let's compare China to the most extreme case: New Zealand, which had the strictest policies. And even New Zealand can't compare at: 10.3 deaths per million.

China's death toll is extremely suspicious. I should have checked first, you're right.

As for the subject on fascism, I think I said a few pages ago that I use Umberto Eco's definition. Might be worthwhile to go back to see what everyone said last time to avoid repeating ourselves.

One needs a consistent definition for what one calls fascism is what I would say, even if it's difficult to distill the various tenets into what made it particularly awful (beyond just regular old despotism), which was transformation of societies based on values. With their current cultural crackdowns and focus on the army, China and Russia are also trending towards fascistic rhetoric. I would say it's worrying.

I'd like to point out as an addendum to my hot take that a lot of US has fascistic elements that some states are now using "An Act Relative to Teachers' Loyalty" so that they don't depict "subversive doctrines".

In addition to that, you know some of the banned books in schools? Maus by Art Spiegelman. Holocaust account from the father, really liked it and read it in school, worrisome that's it's somehow targeted. It's dangerous, especially considering so many on the international scene are ignoring that, what with Russia and China doing similar for "national revitalization" with targets ranging from "sissy men", "video-games", "historical series", "celebrities", "atheism", "beliefs" or whatever else is blamed.

So many states cracking down on simple personal media consumption is worrying. I have argued for measures which are for the general public's benefit (not to get sidetracked into the vaccination thing), but this trend? No pragmatic arguments for it, it's an ideological crackdown.

I think the opposite about fascism, it's a case of the boy crying wolf. We've become so desensitized to arguments about it, that actual elements are no longer recognized, even if it's under our noses.

Right and I reject his definition.
I use the definition set forth by Mussolini.

China is already Fascist, by Mussolini's definition, and by Umberto Eco's 14 points.

Yup, and I prefer Umberto Eco's definition, under the logic that someone who had to experience fascism is better than it's inventor and adherent.

Same old same old.

It is isn't it? Then to rephrase it, it was less 'aggressive' Deng's tenure then under Xi's (even if the former had Tiananmen square). Right now China doesn't seem to even bother with diplomacy anymore, and it's internal policies are a series of crackdowns.

Seriously what happened to the economy

How far do you want to go?

I mean, yeah.
Xi's been an ardent and deep believer in Communism, why wouldn't he suddenly turn around and start nationalizing industry, cracking down on the billionaires, etc?

“Hide your strength, bide your time” – Deng Xiaoping

On one hand Xi pushed moderates and dissenters out of power, on the other it sounds like a return to idealogy while building up strength was the plan all along. Can't nationalize or rattle sabers without wealth or weapons.

Capital and the leader class seems perupetually unable to think ahead, so here we are.

"Where they burn books, they will also ultimately burn people." Heinrich Heine 1823

They're burning books in Tennessee. In a short amount of time, the situation seems to have deteriorated quickly. Or maybe it's a trend that has been going on for a long time, which has just managed to reach an alarming milestone. I find it very ironic that Maus, a book which features a book burning was banned.

I very much want to discuss the current onslaught on public education, setting up teachers to even more liability and censorship in the US. Especially since for all the people who supposedly agitate about rights, I haven't heard a peep about this yet, even when the malicious intent is this transparent.

Of course the pastor doing this is pro-Trump and anti-vax.
But we must discuss why the lefties are the real problem in the world.

Well, I hope then that the American Left will pay attention. It's either them, or for the American Right to notice what's happening in their party and ring the alarm bells. I hope everyone who's even remotely has a dealing with the US is paying attention.

Offering bounties on people and banning books has been done for awhile, but outright making a pyre out of them is really a picture moment. The true slippery slope. The comparison to the Weimar Republic is truer everyday, and one of the big lessons of that is that an evil grew because everyone was too distracted.

We quibble so much about what Nazis are (The pastor responsible unironically called Twitter “censorship Nazis”), when burning books are what the Nazis actually did.

What, you think the far left havent burned books?

The Far left have wiped out entire cultures worth of books, hell, they even burn eachther's books over doctrinal difference.

Frankly its pretty hard to find a people that havent had a round of book destruction, hell the Allie wound up turning countless nazi books to wood pulp in the war's aftermath.

Then name some right now, and I can rail about that too. Especially if they were stupid enough to make an outright pyre.

I would prefer if it's something contemporary and in the West. If it's specifically about the Allies tearing down Nazi symbols, don't give me that Neo-nazi victim shit. I've heard from literal skinheads, about how the prosecution of Nazis after the War was as bad as what the Nazis did. I hope I don't have to explain the difference.

Or we could just focus on the fact, that with all the hollow talks of censorship, they're burning books. Because right now, I'm pretty tired of this left-right nonsense. It sunk the Weimar Republic. In fact, I'm okay with trying to make a general promise that whenever something is brought up about the left or right, we don't deflect.

EDIT: Well, at least with your edit, we can agree that's book-burning is not a good thing.

I will put my edit here for coherance:

I view the need to burn the works of your enemies as an admission that your own lack of conviction, it is a red flag to the world you believe own views are so weak as to die in the face of compettion

I find it rather aggrivating when those who supposedly share my views stoop to such cowardice.

Yup. I'll like to say something in defense of the Allies however.

They had the extraordinary circumstances of occupying a nation which had started a bloody world war and massacred many, with some German civilians told to fight until the very end due to ideology. The market of ideas had been done, the Nazis lived and died by the sword, and the ruins were the conclusion to that argument. Action to quash Nazism then is the difference between a rapist holding someone prisoner, and the country throwing the same rapist into jail.

WWII was also on the back of WWI where the Nazis came into power under the pretense that a Jewish plot was the reason they lost, not old fashioned manpower and supply replenishment. Absurdities and magical thinking can turn into monstrosities, and that illusion could not be allowed to be cultivated again

On top of that, the Allies had the Soviets right in front of them. All things considered, they went extremely easy. Many Nazis walked free, and Mein Kampf can still be read and skinheads can still walk the streets. They just can't be allowed to burn books and place bounties on people living their lives. We've all seen how that ends.

To dwell on this topic some more, the start of this page is about how too many people are called Nazis, and then there's a book burning. A literal book burning.

Its disturbing, and it all feels like a sick joke.

In terms of Progressives eager to ban or burn books, I'll mention a few in the US and abroad here. But I do want to point out that from the progressive perspective it's not always just about content, but also the author, where as with conservatives it's often about content, and often about books for children. Anyway some examples from the progressive side:

-The calls to ban Abigail Shrier's “Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters.” by the ACLU and it's lawyer Chase Strangio. Grace Lavery, a professor of English at the University of California, Berkeley, tweeted: “I DO encourage followers to steal Abigail Shrier’s book and burn it on a pyre.”

- Toronto Public Library removed "Peter Pan” because it's too racist.

-The classic “To Kill a Mockingbird” and other books about racial issues were banned from the curriculum in the Burbank (California) Unified School District

- Dutch publishing house Meulenhoff shut down two translations of the black poet Amanda Gorman because the two translators, Marieke Lucas Rijneveld, and Victor Obiols are white. Despite being incredibly credentialed.

- Dutch political group in Amsterdam to burn copies of his novel, “The Book of Negroes” (published in the Netherlands under the title “Het Negerboek,” and in the U.S. as “Someone Knows My Name”) Incidentally, this is a book chronicles the ways in which a West African woman asserts and preserves her humanity as a slave in North America in the eighteenth century--takes its name from a historical ledger of black men and women who had been loyal to the British during the Revolutionary War and were evacuated to Nova Scotia following their side’s defeat.

- The calls to ban, burn, the books by J.K. Rowling because of her stance on Transgender issues.

-two Democratic state legislators from New Jersey tried to remove The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn from New Jersey schools

-The custodians of Theodor Geisel’s estate, Dr. Seuss Enterprises, consulted with a “panel of experts” and decided to cease publishing six Seuss titles because they “portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong.”

-The outrage from the left regarding the book "American Dirt" because the author was white, writing about the Latin American immigrant experience.

-Despite giving the go-ahead to write and publish his memoires by Hatchette Publishing, Woody Allen's memoirs were effectively canceled because of a public outcry.

-After an outcry Powell Books will not carry Andy Ngo's books in stores, but only available online.

-Staffers at the Canadian branch of Penguin Random House confronted management over the company’s publication of Jordan Peterson’s new book, “Beyond Order,”.

Let's not even go into all the serious problems with Amazon, which controls nearly 50-60% of all book sales in the US, and 80% of all e-books. I know it's a private company, but we should be just as critical of the private as we are with the public – especially when the private acts in such a monopolistic ways. An example: They decided to simply delete, without real explanation, a 2018 book by Ryan Anderson, a Catholic scholar and the head of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, called “When Harry Became Sally: Responding to the Transgender Moment.”

The main fundamental difference between conservatives and progressives when it comes to banning books is this:

Conservatives want to ban books that they view harm children, despite the fact that those books can be enlightening to children. Progressives want to ban books that are usually aimed at adults, thus treating adults like children.

Okay, I'll go over the examples you listed Chewybunny. I'd like to point out that as a fan of H.P Lovecraft, I do understand that censorship isn't limited to one side of the political spectrum.

I just thought a book burning was alarming enough that a bout of whataboutism was unwelcome.

1) Okay, that's a good counter-example.

2) It's ridiculous.

3) Especially when 'To Kill a Mockingbird' is one of the best depictions of fatherhood, daughter familial relations and Southern racial inequality that I've read.

4) I was never a fan of blood politics. It's why I'm favor of ethnic data not being collected in French censuses.

5) Stupid

6) Harry Potter books were burned in that pyre. For the same reason of 'devil worship' that made it 'controversial' when we were much younger. Either way, it's stupid.

7) Mark Twain would have said something about them missing the point. It's another one of those books constantly under attack.

8) Estates only care about money it seems.

9) I wouldn't say all the Left. Or rather, it seems to be an issue of people who won't mind their own business and can't read.

10-13) Politics. Those publishing didn't seem to care so much for books written by dictators.

Amazon: That's the issue of corporatism that goes beyond the current political axis, I think. A lot of the above have the same issues that private interests can shape what is published or not. It's what happens when private interests have so much power on media. They don't do this because of company morals either, because they didn't stop anti-vax and pseudo-science from being sold on their stores.

Difference between Conservatives and Progressives:

I sort of disagree. The author of the Handmaid's Tale wrote it because Feminist groups and the Church were both united in their hatred of pornography, and she thought that was a terrible alliance to make. Still, multiple groups on the spectrum have tried to control sexuality and it's depictions.

The banning of books in educational institutions go up towards secondary school, when teens become adults. When it comes to infantilizing adults and children, moral busybodies aren't a rarity.

Fair enough.
I dare say though, I think we both agree:
The banning of books, of literature, to burn them, to ban them, to ask their authors never be published, due to fear of what they can do is a dangerous thing, wouldn't you agree?

Yes. I think we agree.

People are free to complain and not buy them, and facts have to be checked, but burning them? Banning them? That's cartoonishly evil, and speaks to authoritarian impulses.

Not that even long ago since Breonna Tayler, and another person gets killed in a no knock warrant.
Dear mercy.
https://apnews.com/article/amir-locke-shooting-minneapolis-95adf64a9efdee7f0b98e00ab1748369

I hope they won't get away with murder this time.
I hope justice will be had. Not just for her, but for all Black people who had to grow up fearing law enforcement because of stuff like this.

" A SWAT team entered a downtown apartment and killed Amir Locke, a 22-year-old Black man who his parents said was “executed” after he was startled from a deep sleep and reached for a legal firearm to protect himself… "They didn’t even give him a chance,” Crump said, adding that it was shocking that Minneapolis police had not learned from Taylor’s death, which led to calls for an end to no-knock warrants nationwide.

I don't think you can have readily available firearms and no knock warrants at the same time. It's a disaster waiting to happen, and seems nothing was learned.

"“Mr. Locke did what many of us might do in the same confusing circumstances, he reached for a legal means of self-defense while he sought to understand what was happening,” said Rob Doar, a spokesman for the Minnesota Gun Owners Caucus.

About the 'Freedom Convoy'.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-02-05/protests-against-covid-19-measures-spread-across-canada

"Ex-US Envoy: US Groups Need to Stop Interfering in Canada".

So, it seems there was indeed a noticeable amount of American citizens. I wonder if this will have diplomatic repercussions?

There was some funny bits to the article, such as the fact that the politician who called the situation an occupation was Doug Ford, of all people.That and the final paragraph:

"Protesters have said they won’t leave until all mandates and COVID-19 restrictions are gone. They are also calling for the removal of Trudeau’s government, though it is responsible for few of the measures, most of which were put in place by provincial governments."

I thought that sending money and people like this was insane, completely at odds with the Westphalian nations model, the one which so many were going about sovereignity for years, but here we are.

The good comes with the bad, but I really don't like how this site (and some bits of the US) sometimes goes over a frenzy on issues from Trade Wars, January 6th, Elections and who knows what else. It's educational, one gets to see how movements which baffled everyone else I know get developped, but it's also an unpleasant sight. It reminds me too much of the frenzy post 9/11 and the Iraq War.

I don't think it's a sign of 'freedom' or an anti-authoritarianism push against a mandate, but foreign support from citizens with a shaky understanding of other country's sovereignty.

You know what's the difference between an imperialist and an Anarchist? A difference of one in countries they consider valid.

I sometimes wish humans were unisex, so much unnecessary time wasted fighting over genders.

We'd find something else to fight over, plus having men and women is one of the fun things in life. It's the same reason why I'm for multilingualism instead of a universal language (one language, I don't mean a lingua franca).

Differences brings strife, but it also colours the human experience. Otherwise we may as well be ants.

I hate this trend, how are people supposed to function now

Don't worry, capitalism will fix itself. But if it didn't, blame something you don't like. /s

Yeah it won't fix itself, it will probably just get worse…. which is bad….quite bad indeed….

Welp

It would fix itself, if the various governments of the world werent pushing the lockdown boot to capitalism's windpipe while simultaniously holding down the money printer button.

Covid just showed the weaknesses the inefficiencies of our current systems, while at the same time accelerating trends. Covid didn't cause an economic downturn, the previous economic reality helped cause Covid.

At the end of the day, in the west we're continuing to see a baby bust, a debt trap, overvaluation of assets and a productivity bust while at the same time seeing a rise in billionaires. Couple that with foreign policies encouraging the decoupling of economies and the resulting fears of disruptions because of climate change and social upheaval and it's a weird economy.

You would normally see more value being placed on workers in such a situation, yet the divide keeps on growing.

Stiglitz had a good argument that inequality is self-perpetuating. Once it starts, it doesn't stop by itself.

I think a government mandating that a person should undergo a medical procedure against their will just to have access to basic life necessities is a bit authoritarian. This is again a product of how utterly inept and completely out of their element so much of our political and bureaucratic class is in the US. Bad messaging. Bad planning. Constant hypocrisy. Absolutely scorching public credibility in institutions they are supposed to trust, and doing a terrible job at rebuilding it.
People are rightfully exhausted, distrustful, and angry. And no one in positions of power or authority is trying to alleviate any of it. However, some of them are starting to become a bit more woken to the facts that this endless panic that is now in it's 3rd year, is utterly unsustainable for society.

This is why I think a lot of countries in Europe are ending their mandates. Sweden, Norway, and Denmark (the darlings of so many progressives) are ending their mandates. With Netherlands, and Finland significantly easing their mandates and restrictions.

As far as the article you linked, some things to clarify:

No where in the article does it state that there were a lot of American citizens in the protesting. What the article highlights is American support for the CONVOYS through funding. However, I have no doubt that some of the truck drivers are Americans:

Truckers carry freight from the two countries constantly, some of them are Americans who go to Canada, and vice versa. While I understand sovereignty, this is specifically affecting them just as much as it is affecting the Canadian drivers as well. Of course there would be American drivers who support their fellow Canadian truck drivers and physically be there on the ground with them.

As far as sending money?
Are we supposed to not send money to causes we support in foreign nations? Should sending money to help say the Hong Kong protestors be illegal? Should European countries not be allowed to send money to political causes in the US? Furthermore, there is a significant difference when a government sends it's people to support a protest, and when people go of their own accord. Should the government in the US prevent US citizens traveling abroad to help out with political causes like the Hong Kong Protests? If there was a massive protest against abortion laws should European citizens be prevented from coming out to support the cause of their own accord?

I don't understand why you're being downvoted.
If the response is to the meme about why grocery bills are going so high, which as the grocery shopper in my household I see very damn day, it is indisputable that it is a direct result of the effects of lock downs on international supply chains, coupled with literally 25% of all the US currency being printed in just the last year or so. You can hate the reality of it, but it's the truth.

Supply chains have been devastated by international lockdowns, and even though the lockdowns ended in many countries, the shock to the system and restarting it is going to take significantly more time, especially coupled with the pandemic is increasing global tensions. People don't realize how marginal the profits are for international shipping companies is, a severe interruption like COVID has a devastating effect.

And yes, couple that with the Fed printing more money than ever before – while actual goods are still relatively limited is driving up their costs. Effectively, if you didn't get a raise by at least 7% this year, you actually are making less this year than you were last year.

It's not going to end either, the Fed literally cannot raise interest rates in any meaningful capacity only in infinitesimally small increments. This is two fold:

1) raising interests means that how much the government is paying out every year on interest for it's debt is going to rise insanely. I don't recall where, but a 3% interest rate hike means we would be paying nearly double each year in interest payments. We would be, at that point, paying as much on our interest as we do on our military. And we cannot not pay it. If we do it'll cause a global economic collapse.

2) they are scared shitless of the market assets going down. It's high volatility time now. A minor rate hike will crash the markets, causing billions if not trillions of dollars to disappear. This could easily turn into another major recession (which I think is coming anyway) to even a depression.

Rant:

We're in a very bad cycle that isn't entirely the result of a capitalist system – but a result of nearly 3 decades of terrible government management. And for what?

In my opinion it's because the post war boom was so profound, and so impactful on the US that people became addicted to rapid increase in quality of life, to the good times. It was unsustainable, of course, but the addiction meant that when the system was about to start plateauing, or going down, the government was pressured to find new means of reviving it. They can't help it, it's the flaw of democracy, being beholden to the citizens. So when the good times end, and the bad times begin, the citizens begin to ask why this is so – it means the end of your job, the end of your party, the end of your political power. So kick the can. We've been kicking the can since 1970s, man. And we're kicking it down the road again.

It's why I'm increasingly skeptical of how we conduct democracy around the world. The way we vote is insufficient to the complexities out there. It's why I say a good 1/3rd of Americans can't read past 6th grade level. 1/5th are functionally illiterate. But their vote is equal to mine. Is the solution to restrict voting to certain education levels? or IQ? Some would argue so, but I find that kind of thing borderline repulsive. I've been increasingly supportive of quadratic voting system, I think it's the only one that would make sense for our present situation.

I am not of the belief that the good times are 100% situational, if they were by all rights you should be in a grand boom what with the return of of eastern europe from communism and the population spike in africa posing much the same fertile ground of new customers the post war boom found in the rebuilding of western europe.

To be blunt this sounds a lot like demoralized excuse making for stagnation.

The moneyed see stagnation as desirable; the human urge for stasis by those who already made it fearing usurpation and replacement. Sadly there are plenty of politicians happy to take bribes in exchange for clogging the pipeline with red tape, as well as news anchors eager to try to make the population believe it was inevitable.

I am getting flashbacks to the Obama era "more than 3% growth is impossible" line. I suspect that was chief among the reasons they hate Trump so; shattering the delusion of unavoidable american mediocrity that so much money, foreign and domestic, that had been spent on building.

Stasis is a natural desire but is also poison that must be resisted at all cost, China's entire history is a grand showcase of why.

I am getting too depressed for politics I think I will just….leave a while? Idk I ain't sure but the news are just depressing nowadays… And well everything else really

Alright, I'll try to make a point by point breakdown on why I'm against this movement, and the way it's conducted.

>I think a government mandating that a person should undergo a medical procedure against their will just to have access to basic life necessities is a bit authoritarian.

I think it's an irresponsible accusation that is overblown and is often tied into anti-vaccination efforts, and an argument that ironically sows the very distrust that has hurt efforts.

That and the moralistic argument falls flat as this has led to cases of people being unable to access basic life necessities.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/volunteers-get-groceries-for-ottawa-woman-trapped-by-trucker-protest-1.5762027

But that's not the main accusation and problem, so I'll like to focus on this next section.

>This is again a product of how utterly inept and completely out of their element so much of our political and bureaucratic class is in the US.

US. It's funny that in a Canadian matter, you mention it's a failing of the US.

Remember a few months ago, when I had arguments with you and Greyblades about how the Republicans had spent their tenure being assholes to most other democracies? That the answer I was given was pointless to chastise others, "because it was approved by their base"? 'But Americans don't have foreigners', oh no. It was just a way to get to the 'other side' of the Democrats. I thought that answer made things so much worse, that foreign arenas were just ways to resolve domestic quarrels.

"“Patriotic Texans donated to Canadian truckers’ worthy cause.” Texas Sen. Ted Cruz said on Fox News that “government doesn’t have the right to force you to comply to their arbitrary mandates.”

(Coincidentally, the same person who was talking about how prices to Cancun are when the cold snap is hitting Texas).

"Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino shot back: “It is certainly not the concern of the Texas attorney general as to how we in Canada go about our daily lives in accordance with the rule of law.”

Seems to me, the US now has politicians involved. It may be a case of Canada's officials being inept, but the amount of times they're talking about being overwhelmed (including Doug Ford, so it's not just one party). I have to ask, is this how you treat an ally?

>Constant hypocrisy – rightfully exhausted, distrustful, and angry – meddling

I'd like to get into the subject of hypocrisy. First off, no one has convincingly explained to me the contradiction far about how the donations being anonymous and them being harmless at the same time works.

The same crowd that yelled about sovereignty and globalists now export their damned political conflicts. Of course, it was always a case for might makes right, which is actually the opposite of national sovereignty, but the hypocrisy is even more blatant.

You know what else? There's been talks about false flags here, but with the amount of confederate and nazi flags, the attempted burning of an apartment, the petty hooliganism and the organizers, and the harassment of any inhabitants there as an opponent?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRXBXdJzRG6Eqh3iO3LfdRRAP3Eprr7xJfIlP3JPza1-NqVnC25T2Q1jX7Cp7xXTcnuGB9EUfb4yhzc/pub

Seeing the usual crowd who supports it and the same accusations of false flags in Charlottesville and January 6th and all the damned disturbances across the years. I think it's Hanlon's Razor, it's exactly what it looks like. Add Bannon and Grenell and the US Far-Right has tried to meddle before, and it's such a damning track record that I don't even know why I should give the benefit of the doubt about this meddling ! It's one thing to do this in one's own soil? But another to export it !

I have to ask, do you think a side has a monopoly on being exhausted and angry? I'm tired and angry, I don't know who isn't, and I think the blame can be spread around.

> Sweden, Norway, and Denmark (the darlings of so many progressives) are ending their mandates. With Netherlands, and Finland significantly easing their mandates and restrictions.

Difference is case numbers and local facilities. Some countries aren't the Nordics. Those countries also didn't have the road of their capitals blocked, it was their sovereign decision.

I don't think I want to know the darling of those who support the convoy.

>No where in the article does it state that there were a lot of American citizens in the protesting. What the article highlights is American support for the CONVOYS through funding.

Yes, I linked that because my argument there was about the financial irregularities and the fake names for the donations. Our team had to properly log financing and source.

>there is a significant difference when a government sends it's people to support a protest

With the development of American politicians weighing in, I think this point is now moot, but I would guess that some form of the American government was involved. After all, it seems to be a foreign location for the US's own soft civil war.

May as well, that's the issue with opaque financing, and American politicians compartmentalization of responsibility for that tactic has gone on long enough.

>Should the government in the US prevent US citizens traveling abroad to help out with political causes like the Hong Kong Protests?

Actually, I wanted to talk about China, since I have two points about it.

1) First, because I distinctly remember that the West was getting on the case of the CCP and it's brutal crackdown of Hong Kong, only to be distracted by BLM, where the police there reacted with even more brutality. In one case an Australian Media Crew was attacked by the Police.
https://7news.com.au/entertainment/tv/aust-reporter-describes-dc-police-beating-c-1133390

They weren't the only Journalists to go through something like that. To use your argument about trust, a government that cannot maintain the integrity of police action, or who shows even more chaos saps credibility !

2) Imagine if the CCP uses this same tactic. The Chinese are such a massive tourism revenue source, and some countries are so dependent on that, that I think they could use this as a weapon. Make up an incident and have people softly paralyze a capital.

They've tried it before. How many who justified this will suddenly turn around and decry it? I shudder at what lessons other countries are taking from this.

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-swedens-bizarre-feud-tourists-claim-brutal-murder-attempt-2018-9

>If there was a massive protest against abortion laws should European citizens be prevented from coming out to support the cause of their own accord?

You mean like in Texas, where they have bounties for those who help pregnant women? That beacon of freedom? The one which encourages people to inform each other?

You really think that there's the freedom there that the Americans and those aligned have to do what they're doing in Canada? The US is a flawed democracy, I don't think there's the moral standing to lecture about enjoying freedoms. I don't think EU citizen could participate (if they ever did) not that pouring money in in the first place is acceptable either.

In fact, why aren't any of those in Canada and donating to it try something with Texas? Why don't I throw out the same accusation that so many Americans liked to say? Stop going to other countries, fix your own !

Because with the book burning and social control, the justification for Weimar era intimidation tactics as 'legitimate political discourse', and now this mass action in other countries? I think the US is a falling democracy, and instead of it's citizens fixing it, they're now trying to take everyone else down.

Sure, see you. Hope you go have some fun. The world we're living in could still be worse.
You're depressed, I'm enraged. Neither is good.

I'll try to avoid spreading even more misery in my reply.

I'm glad Gilan has the guts to speak up about the nutjobs in the Convoy. As frustrating as mandates are, be careful who you protest with. It's easy to be suckered into signing up for fascism if you see nothing but the worst of those against it. Do NOT let them take hold of the conversation.

You drawing this from personal "firey but mostly peaceful" experience of movement subversion?

A lesson of the last 20 years is that if show you will automarically abandon every cause that is called X sooner or later your opponants will be calling everything you do X, regardless of applicability or legitimacy.

X will become the call by which you are hearded. If they cannot find it they will put it there themselves.

>You drawing this from personal experience?

Are you? After all, I haven't defended violent extremists (I'm almost damn 'conservative' when you think about it). You have.

So many of the people who engage in these riots across the years are blind to their own faults.

Didn't I say anything about how I didn't particularly care for the left-right dysfunction? I mention the amount of fascists, actions and fascist symbology with the Convoy, because you would have to be outright complicit or blind to not notice it. And I don't want to hear any whines about how they were forced into it. Apathy and defensiveness is not acceptable.

The democratic system dies in the mires of irony and conspiracies. It really is the Weimar Republic.

>A lesson of the last 20 years

Is that nothing has been learned from Iraq and other such wars. Despite attempts to blame some leaders, there was popular support which was quite ugly. In truth, I see that the mentality is still there. Same gung-ho attitude, same inability to actually plan long-term, same blunt solutions, same inability for introspection (and in this case it's not only the US which went to Iraq).

Jumping from one disaster to another like a plague of locusts.

>you will automarically abandon every cause

Ha, then I'm sad to say that you don't really know me. I've said the same thing for decades now, and it's funny how people have their different spins on it. I remember with BLM and Samuel Paty how Macron and his supporters were 'just the same as the far-right'. 'Course I haven't forgotten the Far-right's meddling either.

Both obsessed with blood politics.

>If they cannot find it they will put it there themselves.

'They'. Jesus Christ, outright articulate who's 'they'. Seeing the amount of theocratic, q-anon conspiratorial thinking that has been found with that convoy (and the one going in the US), I wonder what exactly is meant by that.

I could just as easily say "If there's any fault, just blame 'they', and you will never be responsible for anything".

>bigguy123

I actually just got interested because there was an article about foreign funding. Now, with politicians and the chaos involved, I think it's actually starting to become a diplomatic incident.

An anti-mandate protest by nationals? Fine, it's one's own country, it's their discussion to have, but the images coming out? The harassment in the capital? The stupidity and lack of overall strategy? Me? I don't want to mince words. This is a disgrace.

You know what's political correctness? You can't call fascist/imperialist/meddling policies what they are, because now there's a market. It's a money making venture, what with the millions pouring in.

EDIT: I've known people who've fallen into the rabbit hole of some ideology (including extended family) who donate everything they have, even if their schedule and finances can't handled it. Political extremism is ironically a good way for social control (well, until it backfires).

Going back into generalities from ranting, has there been any online social media movements which has actually improved anything? Especially the promise of leading to a better world? It seems most people are disillusioned about it, and in terms of tangible effects it's at best slacktivism, at worst it's destructive and ultimately pointless. The only example I can think of is the Arab Spring, and that had mixed results.

There's a global fall in democracies. Rather than democratization, it almost seems like this kind of communication has helped authoritarians and weakened democracies more than anything else. What does that say about people?

No and the officials who were fine with Facebook and Meta disappearing may have had the right idea. Then again, other disasters have happened without the internet, so maybe it's just the mass media, or any human endeavor.

>Are you? After all, I haven't defended violent extremists (I'm almost damn conservative when you think about it). You have.

The guy pushing for another neolib forever war in syria is accusing me of defending violent extremism?

The greatest rate of casulaties the movements I advocated produced was 2 strokes, a heart attack, an accidental trampling and one of its own shot by a fed.

Whatever, The lack of quotes and the order of posting should have made it clear I wasnt addressing you. You wanna trade walls of >'s talk to chewybunny, my patience isnt close to his.