Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

Now you guys, I like you guys. I tend to have good conversations about serious issues on these forums (and sometimes even the comment section) so when we talk about stuff I usually do not end up frustrated, even if people don't agree with me.

The problem is, not many other websites are so civil (I'm talking mainly Facebook).

Now my main question is, how exactly should one try to bring up serious issues on other websites where the IQ and attention level is minimal?

I typed up a long winded post on Facebook about how Migrants that are 5% of the population in Sweden somehow commited 77% of rapes over several years and that there's no excuse. However before I actually entered it in, I realized that I probably would get crucified for being "racist" or have people imply that I suddenly hate all Muslims.

Do you think there is a legitimate way to have intelligent conversation on sites like that, or is it a lost cause?

P.S. It's ok if you want to debate the whole rape statistic thing, but do it in the thread made for it already. Please stay on topic.

Well, for starters, you need better sources. People are only going to consider your arguments if you back them up with reliable, unbiased sources, and a source that screams "INSIDE EVERY LIBERAL IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" at the top of the page is not going to get you respect or civil argument anywhere. If anything, that source actually weakens your argument, because people aren't going to take you – and by extension the argument – seriously when they see it.

if you try to have a debate on a website that's unmoderated, 9 out of 10 times it's near impossible to have a logical argument without shitflinging, since people will use (and abuse) the "free speech" card as an attempt to state arguments with little to no evidence or logic behind it, regardless if they get pointed out for this or not

in shorter terms, yeah it's a lost cause

Thanks for catching that. I actually didn't really notice because I heard about this statistic so I kind of just used a random site off of Google for the sake of this thread.

The problem with that situation is that the website actually takes statistics from the Swedish government website. The problem is that obviously nobody I know can actually read Swedish. Maybe it would be better to just link that site instead?

But either way, say that the source was way better. Thoughts on broadening discussion?

You can only have intelligent discussion with people who want to have a discussion. You can't go to a site where people read two sentences then shout out their emotional response that they took two seconds to put together and trick them into an intelligent debate. If the people are known to just shout "Racist!" or "You fucking liberal/conservative", no amount of thought, elegance or reason is going to stop them from just giving a two second thought out response.

The political blogs are only parroting what governments themselves admit (and are published in Swedish so linking that directly doesn't help your facebook friends).

{ A 1996 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention reached the conclusion that immigrants from North Africa (Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia) were 23 times as likely to commit rape as Swedish men. The figures for men from Iraq, Bulgaria and Romania were, respectively, 20, 18 and 18. Men from the rest of Africa were 16 times more prone to commit rape; and men from Iran, Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia, 10 times as prone as Swedish men. }

That's how long its been since they've done any official research or investigation into the link between immigrants and rape in Sweden, it would be WAAAAAYY too un-PC to do one now. We wouldn't want anyone to think the conservatives have a point.

If you want to have the discussion, do it, post the post, who cares what ignorant reactionaries are going to post without reading it anyway? If any of them do, you have a chance to post more info that backs up your position. If they think you're racist and unfriend you, is it really a loss?

What did you expect would happen in the best case scenario if you'd posted your status? Would you think you were "safe" if you posted it and a couple people liked it but nobody really responded either way? Or were you actually hoping someone would engage and discuss the issue with you, most likely someone with an opposing view?

It's not a lost cause.

One of the reasons it is difficult to change others' minds stems from the fact that many live in a bubble where their opinions have never been challenged, their beliefs have never needed defending. They haven't really thought things out. Therefore, when presented with a series of facts challenging their conceptions they have no subtly of thought and no experience using reason. They can't distinguish between racism and demographics, for example.

You're not going to change these people's minds, but at least you're exposing them to other points of view, and often the truth. Even if no one is willing to listen, I think it's important not to concede the arena of ideas; monopolistic points of view are dangerous. At the very least you're showing others who agree with you, but are too timid to speak up, that they're not alone. In my opinion that alone is worth speaking out.

The problem with arguing on Facebook and other sites of the same type is that most people there aren't looking to form a rebuttal to an argument instead they try to convey their point by shitflinging and screaming. Sometimes someone will construct a solid rebuttal however.