Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

So the fat shaming "debate" has gotten so out of hand it feels almost like it's just two sides of polarized pieces of filth who cloud any sense of reality or nuance that is actually in the real world. What's your position on weight and how to go at it?

My explanation is simple yet complex at the same time. Obviously both polar sides are wrong. Fat is not something someone should be overly proud of and it's not perfectly natural. Sure some people have tendencies to be overweight but that's just some people. And on top of that it's just a tendency which can be fixed with a little bit of effort. Some people convince themselves they'll never be skinny because it's their "type" when it's completely untrue. I've met some people who are slightly chubby because they're short in build and cannot shave off the last bit without starving. I've also met people who are straight up just overweight and say they can't remove it. That is wrong.

Now the other side that has formed in retaliation to the extremist fat pride movement which is usually in the "neckbeard" sectors of the internet that have formed from the splinters of Gamergate and such are so upset about the pride movement that they'll do anything to reject it even if it means being horrid human beings. The retaliation started off saying things like don't exacerbate fat shaming most instances of "fat shaming" are not real bullying. It's okay to encourage people to lose weight since it's the healthy thing to do as long as you do not make them feel bad for it or insult them for their weight.

But now it's basically become that. So many anti-pc idiots who try so hard to be anti-pc they just become human filth and always feel the urge to point out when someone is fat or ugly and "lol go eat some more hamburgers you idiot hahaahah fat fucks will all die" and generally treat them as inhuman. Like that one instance of the girl who bought several cheeseburgers for her siblings had this giant uproar from the anti-pc crowd that had no real argument other than to yell on the internet about how nasty she is and how she's going to die without bothering to read past the titles of the clickbait articles and actually see what goddamn happened.

The biggest actual debate and not just people yelling who would normally yell is obviously the debate over media. The vitriolic Steven Universe sub-sects brought up how SU is a "progressive" cartoon for featuring heavier characters. The "curvy" barbie thing that happened recently. And generally just what moral role entertainment or advertisement should take when doing body shape. In my opinion?

I'm more towards the anti-pc side on this subject (but not in a retarded way) in that usually it's just fantasy and entertainment and if the bodies are unrealistic it's just as unrealistic as everything else. Sometimes people like to project and entertainment with a lot of skinnier human (or human-like) characters offers an outlet for that. However I'd be stupid to not acknowledge it's obvious there's a psychological role played in making people feel bad about their weight in unhealthy ways. And fatter characters in my eyes should happen a decent amount but at the same time you shouldn't force fat characters into everything. As with all diversity it should feel natural and non-forced. For example, regardless of how retarded the fandom is SU does it very well. If you try to make entertainment that resembles some aspect of the real world it should fit this part of the real world and if it doesn't then the creator has certain freedoms.

It's just a bloody mess and all I see are people being stupid I haven't seen anyone be vocally reasonable when it comes to this subject anymore. It's barely even a subject at this point and it hurts me. Thoughts?

I see the fat 'issue' like I see smoking. It's bad for your health and it makes you look unattractive. It can be okay for friends to tell you you're doing something harmful to yourself but at the end of the day you have the right to do bad things to your body and image and people shouldn't hound you excessively for it. On the flip side you have no right to complain if people find you unappealing for making bad life choices.

I wish I could make my opinions as short and sweet because this is literally my perspective and I wrote an essay lol

The fat acceptance movement made everything a mess with accepting the "fat" in you instead of promoting the acceptance the person that happens to be fat, we all know that just because of being fat you get bullied.
Seriously being overweight is bad but like @jarbox we can say that is bad for you but I it up to you to something about it or not.

Smoking now holds a seriously negative social stigma and has been practically banned from the public after years of activist campaigning against a bad life choice, and literally every single bullet point they used applies to obesity. It's bad for your health, the taxpayers have to fund your care when you get seriously ill at only 40, it's a terrible influence for your children who will also be alone when you die young, you're wasting your money on overpriced junk that's killing you.

Look up any anti-tobacco campaign and replace a few words, now it's an anti-obesity campaign.

We've got little kids in elementary schools across the country drawing awareness posters about the dangers and consequences of smoking… on the other hand, childhood obesity has never been higher.

Lest we forget about the very obvious double standard at play. It's generally a pretty safe assumption that when someone talks about being a "crusader against fat shaming", they're not spending a whole lot of time rallying to get Family Guy off the air for its "horrible fatphobia-based stereotype of a main character". But if Peter was Petra…
Hell, these types who claim to care about this particular issue so much are probably still going straight towards that ol' internet cliché to slap onto the people who disagree with them (which just so happens to have been invoked in the OP), consistency be damned.

I'm not saying fat people should be hounded to the ends of the earth and forced to eat salad, but obesity should by no means be encouraged imo and I feel like we kinda are encouraging it by pushing acceptance of it. I've only been kind of fat for a couple years now and it's already caused me a lot of problems. It's definitely not something I want to live with the rest of my life and I can't imagine how people who are heavier than me even manage to get around, hold jobs, ect.

I honestly think it's a crock of shit.

Sure people are made fun of for being fat, but you have to remember that people are made fun of for any reason whatsoever. Common ones are race, social status, and weight.

The difference is that weight is something you can actually do something about, and is actually detrimental to your health. "Fat Shaming" is just a made up term to make it sound worse than it really is. Fat people are made fun of because they're unattractive (to most people) and often have problems doing things that healthy people have no issue with.

The problem with calling things "fat shaming" is that it leads to fat acceptance. Being fat isn't that terrible, but it shouldn't be accepted as the norm. Being homosexual or transgender is accepted because it is part of that person's personality. Being fat doesn't have anything to do with your personality, it just means you're overweight. Simply just accepting someone being overweight and causing health issues with themselves is not a good precedent to set.

Obviously, nobody should be harassed for any reason whatsoever. But people need to understand, that bullies target insecurities regardless what it is. Saying it's ok to be fat won't stop fat kids from being bullied. In the end, this only really causes more harm than help.

It's a shame that people who genuinely want to help an overweight person yet get accused of fat shaming. You may be comfortable with it but it's not something you want to live the rest of your life with.

I have no sympathy for fat acceptance. Overweight should not be the new "normal." I will not, however, be a complete asshole to fat people just because they're fat, like way too many people on the internet.

So yeah, I definitely will offer advice when asked for (I am quite proud that I lost 40 pounds in a year), and I will encourage friends and family to try to watch how much sugar they eat in a day. I'm not going to just go up to a stranger and start lecturing them, though.

Being overweight can put you at a significantly higher risk for all sorts of illnesses and such. Obesity shouldn't become the new normal, because all that'd do is create a generation of people going "why did I have a heart attack at 40 years old?"

I don't have anything against obese people and I certainly don't "shame" them or whatever the fuck people say, but still you need to keep healthy. Being physically healthy will give you a longer life.

Obesity needs medical attention and people with it should be encouraged to seek help for it in a non-shaming way.
Being overweight but not obese isn't as big of a deal in my mind. As long as your doctor doesn't recommend you lose weight and you feel fine, then I don't really see the point in shaming them or pointing it out excessively. They probably know that it would be better to lose weight but honestly we all have things we could work on.
Being a healthy weight is good and should be celebrated in a constructive non-fanatical way.
Being extremely underweight needs medical attention and people with it should be encouraged to seek help for it in a non-shaming way.
Being underweight but not much isn't as big of a deal in my mind. As long as your doctor doesn't recommend you gain weight and you feel fine, then I don't really see the point in shaming them or pointing it out excessively. They probably know that it would be better to gained weight but honestly we all have things we could work on.

Like.

I don't get why this is even a thing of discussion.

Don't be a dick to people for what they look like. But at the same time don't lie to them about their health, even if it makes them upset. Telling a leper that they're disgusting and vile is not cool. Telling a leper that they're sick and they should get medicine is fine. Apply the same to obesity.

I don't get why this is so fucking hard.

TL;DR Obesity is bad but don't be a massive dick about it

If you're obese but you don't even attempt to do anything about it, you don't deserve sympathy. It's like an alcoholic who keeps on drinking a bottle of vodka every night after getting a liver transplant. I'm not saying we deserve to call you 'landwhale' and mock you, but, well, I hope you enjoy eating yourself to death.

If you're obese and you're trying to do something about it, good on you! It can be hard for some and it isn't helped by people trying to shame them about it.

Basically, its fine to love your body no matter what, just know when it's putting yourself at risk, and know when to start doing something about it.

And people who champion being obese as some kind of goal or achievement are dangerous. Don't spread your bullshit to some impressionable young fat kid. It's like going around talking about how all the cool kids smoke.

First up, I don't think being fat is a problem, being overweight isn't that much of a problem, but being obese is bad.

I think one of the major issues in this is that what is considered fat to many people. And that's a problem for both sides. Many people judge off appearance over the actual weight of someone.

For example, i've met and know people who would call someone leaning towards overweight and even people who are perfectly normal size as fat, more in particular girls and women. Hell I've heard a person who has said someone that looks similar to Lisa Lombs as fat, although admitting it was in anger. But that's a lot of the problem, there's an unnecessary amount of hatred for fat people, really with no justifiable reason. Very few times has there really been any situation in which I felt someone was even being annoying because of their weight and size.

And you have the issue of why, even if its just for concern over their health, others need to be so involved with these random people, very few times are people who "fat-shame" actually doing a good thing and I doubt its altruistic reasons for all of them. I can maybe understand it more with friends and family, but I think the way to go about it is too inspire them instead of make them feel bad.

Really the only people who can truly tell you your weight/size is a problem is doctors.

On the flip-side, I've seen people adamantly defend people who are clearly at a danger to themselves and justify it all.

And I understand the concern as well, especially how a preventable problem ends up having to be treated at the expense of others, whether that be taking up medical supplies, a doctors time a space in a hospital that someone else could use and in countries like mine how it costs taxpayers money to solve some instances. Obesity is a real problem and we can't ignore that, really more should be done to solve this.

I also don't like the smoking comparison because there are a few factors in smoking that make it different. Like…

- Smoking isn't a necessity, you never need to smoke. Obesity primarily comes from eating an excess of food and an unhealthy, unbalanced diet
- Smoking is addictive. Food can be addictive, but not to the chemical level that nicotine is
- There aren't any health benefits for smoking in any amount of consumption, there is only negative effects. Eating food is beneficial to the body and mind if you have a good diet.

^ I want to throw in coming off the end of Spidey's post that smoking is bad for other people around you when you do it in public. Smokers who refuse to try and quit lack social conscience. Lisa pointed out that being very overweight can negatively affect your family too, and I agree with that, but it's nothing on smoking, which can and will damage the strangers in the street around you.

Smoking is much more "shame-worthy" than fat, although I do not support the active shaming of anybody.

When someone smokes near you, and you breathe in their smoke, they are damaging your body. But a fat stranger does not damage you just by being fat near you. They are not really interfering in your life, so why would you go out of your way to interfere in theirs?

I'm opposed to fat shaming. I'm also opposed to the notion that being fat is healthy, although in a lot of countries I guess it's statistically quite normal. You don't have to be absolutely on one side of this debate. And yeah I agreed with the OP on virtually every point.

What people don't seem to understand is that almost NOBODY chooses to be fat.

Yes, a small percentage of people are fat due to physical problems, but MOST FAT PEOPLE HAVE MENTAL DISORDERS. People like Boogie2988 are more common than people think.

The only reason why obesity is rising is that cheap, unhealthy food is easier to access now than it was before.

Saying that it's their fault for being fat implies that they chose to have a mental disorder.

How many mental disorders out there are actually a direct cause of obesity?

People with mental disorders such as Bipolar and ADHD are more likely to be obese, but the closest disorder I can think of that might directly cause it is Binge Eating Disorder.

{ – Smoking is addictive. Food can be addictive, but not to the chemical level that nicotine is }

{ MOST FAT PEOPLE HAVE MENTAL DISORDERS }

The mental disorder "most fat people have" is addiction, which is a learned disorder that always begins with a conscious choice, so let's not excuse addicts as helpless victims. Cornell and a lot of other places have done studies and analysis of America's obesity epidemic, our problem is not that we eat shitty food and all have diabetes, but that we eat too much food in general. You can eat 2500 calories worth of not-junk food, it's still 2500 calories. It's no mystery that we consume more than any other country on the planet.

The detrimental effect of being raised in a fat family with terrible eating habits and becoming an overweight or obese child in your single digit years is being severely underestimated. Being an obese child doubles your chance to die before you're 50.

Unlike the campaigns against tobacco and smoking, we have "body positive" campaigns that vilify healthy and fit bodies in favor of "real" bodies, which these image groups always describe as the average size, as if the average size in this country is not grossly large. Should individuals be personally bullied? No. Should there be more public awareness campaigns about the dangers of childhood obesity especially and how it's not actually brave to be a fatass? Yes.

As an overweight individual (about 300 pounds) who is not only rather tall, but still so young, my stance and beliefs on "fat" is rather simple:

-I chose to make myself this way. As such, I must deal with the consequences of having difficulty performing physical tasks, constant hunger, fatigue, and sometimes depression.

-It is possible for me to change. However, I lack any motivation to do so. This leads back to statement 1; "I chose to make myself this way."

-Aside from friendships, I have no reason to "criticize" another's weight. In fact, I have absolutely no gain from shaming individuals from their weight. I obtain no satisfaction from doing so, and I hate releasing negative feelings. Slightly altered version of the beginning of statement 1: "They chose to make themselves that way."

-Obesity is similar to any other addiction; You don't want to stop, and when you do, it's most likely too late, because you are already dead from said-addiction. Some people are lucky, however, and act before they can even reach this conclusion. They chose to change themself that way.

-It should also be noted that many obese individuals have mental disorders. I can confirm this, because I have been diagnosed with OCD and ADD. Unless they are purposefully harmful towards others, obese men and women should be treated the same way as any other individual you encounter in the world.

All in all, the ultimate fact lies on the Golden Rules: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated. What you wish upon others, you wish upon yourself.

Therefore, if you shame anyone because of their selves, don't be surprised when someone else finds your weakness, and exploits that to your disadvantage. Other people will treat you with just as little respect as you emitted onto others, and you did indeed wish this fate onto yourself.

To conclude, I am a true-neutral being when it comes to fat shaming. I understand that it is wrong to make fun of these individuals, but I will not always sympathize for them. If they can change, yet refuse to help themselves, that is their choice, and I will not feel sorry for them. If it is too late for them, I learn a lesson; To never attain such mass.

…Is this a satisfying thought?

I find people on both extreme ends of the "Fat Acceptance" and "anti-PC" side to be equally annoying people for different reasons. Fat Acceptance people for acting like things such as encouraging healthy weight loss via eating better or exercising is "fat shaming," but also the anti-PC people because they're basically just massive dicks who are just being schoolyard bullies with anonymity.

I admit I'm not sure what else I can really say on this subject. For one practically everyone here knows I've got a thing for people on the heavier side (though if you see who my two biggest waifus are you'll also see I absolutely in no way have an aversion to thinner figures), so I'm not sure if anything I'd say on this matter would be seen as hypocritical or whatever.

I personally mark a difference between "Fat" and "Overweight", though it's just a personal distinction.

A fat person is, well, fat. But not to a dangerous extent, and possibly just naturally fat instead of eating mountains of food. I can understand and approve of these people being proud of who they are and how they are. Them being harrased and bullied irritates me because for starters, they're not even that fat, and second of all, they may just be naturally fat, even without eating much food.

An overweight person, meanwhile, is someone who's so fat their belly looks like a full garbage bag. Who's so fat, that their arms and legs are as big as an Xbox, and almost looks like they have difficulty breathing. Who's so fat, that they are sweating practically all the time, and practically need to turn around a bit with every step just to avoid falling like an idiot because their belly's so big it even obstructs their legs's movements. Basically, the ones who are dangerously fat.

With the latter, there's nothing to be proud of, only something to be ashamed of, and if they receive Fat Shaming, then they should quit their whining because they asked for it. That level of fat is not obtained "naturally" but by being an idiot and eating a lot without a care about your personal image or the effects it can have on your health. The only ones responsible for it, are them, and the only ones that can do something about it, are them.

If an overweight person thinks their level of fatness is something to be proud of, they're an idiot. If they have the guts to brag about it, I'll laugh at them when they find out they'll live about 30-40 years less than me because of that fat. If they do try to do something about it however, they gain my respect, even if they barely reach "above average" levels.

My view is simple, if you want to make unhealthy choices then fine, but at the very least don't deny that they are unhealthy choices.

Well fat shaming isn't really doing any good. Its only causing chaos. I think one of the biggest problems with it, is that when people fat shame, they don't really define fat. there are people that are overweight or plus size, that aren't fat and i think we really need to make clear who were talking about. I know were talking about Obesity and like the typical white american trash, but not everybody knows that. The word fat is so easily thrown around, we are calling normal size people fat. There are some people that are bigger but are completely healthy and There are some people who are perfectly healthy, but look in the mirror and think they're fat. So if were gonna fat shame, we really have to make it clear, what fat really looks like and not shame the people who are simply a little bigger than others. If you don't know what i mean, look up "thick" on the internet, and look up "fat". There's a difference, but a lot of people look at people that are thick or plus size or whatever and define them as fat which is definitely not true. So i just wish people would be more careful with the word fat.

ok let's play the PC vocab game.

Fat or Thick?

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

all models.

Are these the normal sized people who we shouldn't call fat?

Obesity isn't healthy, that much is true, but there's a point where discouraging obesity turns into actual fat shaming. Like, making sure kids from a young age are taught the importance of a good diet and exercise is great, actually insulting people over their weight not so much (Hello, Dear Fat People).

The whole fat acceptance movement in general kinda seems to me like maybe a not so good way of tackling a real problem. Whether you like it or not the media's representation of what's supposed to be a "healthy body" has a considerable effect on a number of people, anorexia is a real problem (and doesn't just affect fat people, funnily enough). To me, the whole movement for fat acceptance stems from trying to help move away from this and make overweight young people feel less ashamed of themselves and less likely to resort to these severe methods of weight loss. And yes, I get the idea, I can see where it stems from and it does work to help the issue, sure being overweight isn't exactly healthy but you can't really suggest that fat people should feel ashamed for how they are, it's that kind of thing that does lead to things such as anorexia and depression.

Here's my stance on the whole thing: We should have more fat representation in the media, to help serve as a reminder that yes, there are more body types than super thin. I'm not saying it should be as glorifying as say, fat models can appear (and I'm obviously not asserting it should be negative in any way), but just an acknowledgement that different body types exist. Basically like the whole "More women/LGBT/Ethnic minorities in the media" thing (Which has already set a bunch of people off but hey, representation is a more powerful thing than some give it credit for, but that's another thread). And as well as this, as Lisa says, more encouragement should be given at a young age to help promote healthier lifestyles. That's my take on all this.

@ Lisa – I'd probably call them plus size since that's the technical term for it :\

also ffs it's not fatshaming to tell you that the clothing you're wearing does nothing to show off your form. if you look like trash because you're wearing skinny clothes in a fat body that's your own fucking fault for being a delusional idiot. There are plenty of clothes designed for plus size models – the reason why your options are different is because your BODIES are different.

They are all beautiful
All Overweight , maybe 2 and 3 are fat.

nah.

Ashley Graham is a plus size model.

She's a 12/16 depending on what continent you're on.
She's the face of Lane Bryant, a plus size lingerie store.

What I posted before is a fetish that has become mainstream under the guise of body acceptance.

@Lisa: #1 is great, #2 is borderline, and #3,4,5 are fat. Well I dunno about #5, yes or no. I think the lighting is playing tricks.

1, 2 and 5 don't even have their belly almost resting on their crotch, or really big "spare tires".
Fat/Overweight should describe a really disproportionate ratio height/weight.
Nothing else.
So yeah, why would "thick" being something weird to describe them?

Edit: Another thing, when was "fat" ever an "insult?
Fat people know they are fat. They don't whine about fat shaming when you just react about it whitout doing so to annoy them.

5 has the biggest fat rolls of them all wtf are you looking at. 1 and 2 are obtuse. If your stomach goes beyond your natural waist, you have become the literal definition of obtuse. That is not healthy, no matter what kind of designer bras you strap on, and it is definitely not appealing.

Ashley Graham is thick. She's obviously built bigger.
She could also be called kinda chubs, a bit fluffy, a little soft, aka she aint doing Pilates.

1-5 are all fat and I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them were technically obese.

You know how it's often hard to really tell the shapes of a person through manipulated-modeling-photography but come on. Ashley is a Plus Size model alright but, as far as I can see, she looks more "normal-shaped" than anyone considering the height/weight ratio that she displays in the photo. I mean, it's maybe a deceiving pose that she has but I almost make out her ribs. We couldn't see the ribs of a fatty-fat person.
I get your point but the ones who really look overweight to me are 3 and 4 (though it seems more blatant in 3 and the shapes are more even in 4)
1 and 2 don't look common, of course, but they don't seem to have overly fat arms and thighs, quite. Even if their belly is bigger, it doesn't sag as much as it seems to happen for 3 and 4.
5, yeah, it's maybe the way she is stretching her arms which may get less fat rolls to appear on the photos but it still appears to be the same kind of belly proportion as 1 and 2.
You could argue that the underwears are a big part on why the sagginess isn't as apparant but still.

Then, a quick mention on how "not appealing [to me]" is just an opinion that is, thankfully, not shared by everyone in this world.

Lastly, seriously, who should care more than them about their own health and diet?
I don't think they all refuse to try their best to get healthier any chance they get if they are diagnosed with various medical conditions related to their weight.

That's because she IS normal, size-wise at least. The average American woman is a size 12.
Of course, the average American woman is also 5'4", but let's not be petty.

All you're doing in the rest of your post is rating them from "maybe passably socially acceptable fat to blatantly obese".

{ Lastly, seriously, who should care more than them about their own health and diet? }

Well, I was going to pose the question, seeing as how the trend is towards socialized healthcare, would any of you support mandatory weight loss programs for people with a certain body percentage of fat?

Like I said in one of my first posts in this thread, half of the campaign against tobacco is because of all the awful things it does to your health and we've effectively banned it from the public. Why do we treat obesity so much differently?

I know the conversation is kinda going in a different direction, but I have to say, almost all of those women except Ashely Graham have to be severely obese. Why do I think so? Because almost all of those women weigh more than me. I'm 5' 6", and weigh somewhere around 231 pounds (but my scale barely works, so…). I'm a US size 18, or 20 depending on the pants amd how much they've shrunk or expanded or whatever. A BMI of 18.5 to 24.9 is normal. A BMI of 25 to 29.9 is overweight. A BMI of 30 or greater is obese.

I have a BMI of 37.3.

I meant 3 and 4 are fat. The placement of numbers confused me

A BMI is a good rough estimate, but not an accurate source for determining obesity.

OP wrote:
So the trans shaming “debate” has gotten so out of hand it feels almost like it’s just two sides of polarized pieces of filth who cloud any sense of reality or nuance that is actually in the real world. What’s your position on transsexualism and how to go at it?

My explanation is simple yet complex at the same time. Obviously both polar sides are wrong. transsexualism is not something someone should be overly proud of and it’s not perfectly natural. Sure some people have tendencies to be mental but that’s just some people. And on top of that it’s just a tendency which can be fixed with a little bit of therapy. Some people convince themselves they’ll never be sane because it’s their “type” when it’s completely untrue. I’ve met some people who are slightly mental because they’re short in sanity and cannot sane out the last bit without raving. I’ve also met people who are straight up just loony and say they can’t stop it. That is wrong.

Now the other side that has formed in retaliation to the extremist trans pride movement which is usually in the “average” sectors of the internet that have formed from the splinters of normality and such are so upset about the pride movement that they’ll do anything to reject it even if it means being horrid human beings. The retaliation started off saying things like don’t exacerbate trans shaming most instances of “trans shaming” are not real bullying. It’s okay to encourage people to accept Themselves since it’s the healthy thing to do as long as you do not make them feel bad for it or insult them for their disorder.

But now it’s basically become that. So many anti-Marxism idiots who try so hard to be anti-Marxist they just become human filth and always feel the urge to point out when someone is sick or mental and “lol go eat some more dicks you autist hahaahah tranny fucks will all die” and generally treat them as inhuman. Like that one instance of the girl who bought several hormone therapies for her child had this giant uproar from the anti-Marxist crowd that had no real argument other than to yell on the internet about how insane she is and how she’s going to die without bothering to read past the titles of the clickbait articles and actually see what goddamn happened.

The biggest actual debate and not just people yelling who would normally yell is obviously the debate over media. The vitriolic Steven Universe sub-sects brought up how SU is a “progressive” cartoon for featuring non-binary characters. The “Target bathrooms" thing that happened recently. And generally just what moral role entertainment or advertisement should take when doing identity recognition. In my opinion?

I’m more towards the anti-Marxist side on this subject (but not in a retarded way) in that usually it’s just fantasy and delusion and if the genders are unrealistic it’s just as unrealistic as everything else. Sometimes people like to project and entertainment with a lot of straighter human (or human-like) characters offers an outlet for that. However I’d be stupid to not acknowledge it’s obvious there’s a psychological role played in making people feel bad about their identity in unhealthy ways. And mental characters in my eyes should happen a decent amount but at the same time you shouldn’t force tranny characters into everything. As with all diversity it should feel natural and non-forced. For example, regardless of how retarded the fandom is SU does it very well. If you try to make entertainment that resembles some aspect of the real world it should fit this part of the real world and if it doesn’t then the creator has certain freedoms.

It’s just a bloody mess and all I see are people being stupid I haven’t seen anyone be vocally reasonable when it comes to this subject anymore. It’s barely even a subject at this point and it hurts me. Thoughts?

I made a few "adjustments", it's a bit like looking into a cracked mirror, ain't it?

As to the fatty meat of this subject, I'll be tackling it eventually, but not here. Nooooo, that'd be like a black man going to a KKK rally to speak His side of things, wouldn't be a very receptive crowd, to say the least.
I'll handle this at My own venue, when life permits Me the time and means to do so. Preferably a Youtube video, as typing a blog post would be pointless, since reading comprehension has long since been abandoned in modern academia in favor of being a soulless meat calculator (herpderp muh maths r thuh only importaint thang, and so forth).

But please, keep on having bait/circle-jerk threads like this one, as They basically do My writing research for Me. KnowYourMarxist, Redderp, the Channers, Etc. You're all a goldmine of insight into the failures of the modern education system and society in general.