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they shouldnt have taken their rightful land trough bloody warfare and double edged treaties in the first place

but what i do know is that the Palestinians get massive support both financial and moral.

don't you guys get billions of dollars from america? and thanks to that now have one of the largest militaries in the middle east? you just want a curbstomp at this point.

supporting each side as the right side is nothing short of delusion or brainwashing when both sides mercilessly kill civilians without blinking an eye none should receive any pity (or maybe both should since they are being driven to hell)

but right now israel is the one that took their entire land and is bombing innocent civilians into submission because "Muh right to defend myself", its also the most economically and politically powerful one, so its the one that gets the most flak.

the solution? the solution would probably upset israel and thats why they won't accept it, the solution should be that they move from their land, thats the only possible solution.

You could argue the same thing from a Palestine point of view.
Palestine is in a really awful place rigth now due to the goverement being run by HAMAS, who are nutjobs. If Palestine wants to actualyl be respected more, clearly HAMAS needs to go.

You know isreal has a lot of shady practices but I feel that's more on par with the region at large then anything else, just look at turkey for example. Still, I think it's not a good policy to look at people getting murdered in the streets and go "Well you had it coming, for something you had no say in." Such as blaming modern Isreali for the actions their grand parents or great grand parents may or may not have done.

no doubt they are crazy, but im arguing in a more ethnical point of view, palestine was the one that got moved out of the land manifest destiny style and at the end is what caused this entire mess. and now the seed has been planted and cutting the tree wont help.

another problem that arises is that dismantling HAMAS won't achieve peace between palestinians and israelis. HAMAS is just a flag for an ideology, an ideology of hate between the two people, if you take down HAMAS it won't stop palestinian hate towards jews and another organization will appear.

You know isreal has a lot of shady practices but I feel that’s more on par with the region at large then anything else, just look at turkey for example. Still, I think it’s not a good policy to look at people getting murdered in the streets and go “Well you had it coming, for something you had no say in.” Such as blaming modern Isreali for the actions their grand parents or great grand parents may or may not have done.

i don't advocate the murder of civilians, but you cant look at this without blaming somebody's lack of foresight for it. and its not "actions of grand parents", its things that even to this day keep happening.

It's sad that right now I see this sort threat title and expect a fight over the brexit result.

I pretty much agree with JJ on this one. If Israel were a "repressive Apartheid state," then Israel wouldn't let a large Muslim group sit in the Knesset and argue for the destruction of Israel on a constant basis. If Israel were a racially hateful state, it wouldn't have flown Jews from Ethiopia and Syria into its borders during its founding. The enemies of the Jews in Israel are responsible for much more evil, much greater suffering, and much deeper perversion than the IDF and the Israeli populace are. It is only because imbecilic Western liberals equate poverty with justifiedness and wealth with evil and because they discredit ideology as a motivating factor for anyone that they imagine the Palestinians are only revolting against the Israelis because they are "corrupt" and "oppressive."

While there are abuses done to the Palestinians by Israel, by no means are the Palestinians blameless. And while the Jews commit crimes associated with the desperate protection of a land which is theirs by right, the Muslims commit the crimes of genocidal fanatics that want nothing more than to wipe an entire ethnic and religious demographic off the face of the earth.

I really sympathize with Israel and the position they're in. These attacks do nothing to help or promote Palestinian and only cause the Israeli populace to take a more hardline stance in response. You'll never get peace by trying to terrorize the other side into submission--especially when the other side kicked your ass and the ass of all of it's neighbors in three wars.

But Israel needs to see that, too. You won't sway Palestinians by bulldozing terrorists' families' houses and expelling workers every time there's an attack. All that does is play into the terrorists hands and keep the pot stirring.

twistin' said:

…they shouldnt have taken their rightful land trough bloody warfare…

Daily reminder the Arabs started the '48 war. The partition plan would be in full force and most of the clusterfuck would have been avoided if it wasn't for their damn anti-semitism and "drive them into the Mediterranean Sea" mentality. They only have themselves to blame for what's happened.

You know, I don't think there's a single thing that doesn't play into the terrorists hands. You make a hardline against them, it plays into their hands. You accept everyone with open arms and go out of your way to never bring up islam or muslims in a negative light, and it plays into their hands. You declare neutrality, and it plays into their hands. You send aid and it plays into their hands. You deny aid and it plays into their hands.

Frankly, I think this is less about beating the terrorists as it is mitigating the damage they do. It;s a DPS war where you'll always be taking damage no matter the move you make. So it's understadnable how some people take the route that the only way to win is to make the damage to the other side greater to what you'll get.

except HAMAS is fully supported by by the palestinians.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-poll-idUSKBN0OP21120150609

giving the palestinians full Independence won't achieve peace. but will simply turn them into another terror state. with all the rocket attacks and wars to boot.

@twistin'
stole their rightful land? bloody warfare? double edge treaties? WHAT?

please learn some history.

the palestinans lost their share of the land after the INVADED ISRAEL and waged a war of extermination.
every loss of land is a result of their aggression. and any attempt to make a peace treaty ended up with another one of their Intifadahs

oh and the solution is to move away from the land? bloody brilliant. lets deport 7 million people. that is so practical.

europe is struggling to contain a mere 1 million refugees. lets see how they deal with 7x that number.
all because some people are intolerant to the point of bloody murder, of people who live in "muh land"

Let's take it to another level, JJ. You're aware that it's "another JJ thread," but I don't know if the discourse has gone further than that.
 
If you were leader of the free world or if you were simply the leader of Israel, how would you handle the threat?

What do you think should be done? All-out war? More aggressive policies at the border?

there is only one thing i know for sure.

as long as they will keep getting support from all these "human rights" organizations and public opinions. they will never be afraid of losing anything.

they get funding and supplies to keep their hate and victim industry immortal.
they get moral support from "peace activists" that advocate their terrorsim and call it "freedom fighting"

israel is being castrated in retaliating against the palestinians because again, said public opinions and polls demonize israel. and they are afraid of doing harsh things like executing convicted murderers and deporting the people who support them. all in fear of sanctions and boycotts.

people like twistin that its all israel's fault and they they should get out of their land, and others who say that jews deserve all the terror they are getting

im making these threads in hope people will understand whats really happening and stop supprting palestinian terrorsim and hate industry.

only when the palestinians will stop getting all that support they will be finally lowered to a position where negotiation is manageable because they will have thing to lose.

they have no incentive to stop as long as they keep getting all these free resources they redirect for their war effort.

imagine what would happen in in 2006, after gaza got its independence and started shooting rockets. instead of dead-silence from the international community, and condemning of israeli retaliation.
they would instead call out hamas for all what they're doing. they would never have kept going like they did if they were declared illegal, anti-humanitarian and that needs to be replaced.

You didn't answer his question.

You didn't even get close to an answer.

I was hoping this was going to be a thread about refugees, not another Jolly Jew whining thread.

as i said, i made this thread so people will understand what the palestinians are really doing and stop sympathizing with them. making hypothetical suggestions won't change anything.

but if you want to know what i think. here:

there are two ways to deal with this problem

the bad way, but higher chances of success is to rule them with fear, because its impossible to gain their sympathy. – anyone who talks positively about terrorism will be deported/imprisoned. arab parliament members that will that show support for the terrorists will be fired. the punishment for murder or attempt, for nationalistic or religious reasons will be public executions, and it will be legal to shoot anyone who throws stone.

its far from being humanitarian, moral or optimal. but thats the only thing that will get the job done. the palestinians will lose hope for uprising, will be genuinely afraid to support terrorism. but will live in peacefully with the jews. albeit with dormant hatred.

• * *

the only other option i see is far more risky but is morally superior.
israel will have to regain full control over the west bank and gaza.
establish israeli law, take over their administration, their economy, and most important of all – their education system.

this way, 80 years of brain-washing could finally be undone, the palestnians will cooperate with israel because at first, they will have no choice, and in the end, because it benefits them. and only after that will it be possible to give them an independant state

To be fair, nobody else has answered the question either.

The Israel-Palestine is one of the ugliest situation worldwide, mainly because none of the two sides can undisputedly claim the moral high-ground.

On one hand we get the Palestinians, who have been used as political cannon fodder by richer Middle Eastern countries against the poster boys of Western influence. The hate they harbor towards Israel has been fed by half a century of propaganda, and the fact that Hamas still benefits from widespread support shows that the half-lie of the stolen fatherland is now hardwired in the concept of Palestinian identity.

On the other hand we get the Israelis, who are now so much shaped by siege mentality that can't understand their own faults and have functionally behaved as an occupying force on much of the territories that should, after international treaties, have been already awarded to a Palestinian state.

Not to mention, the two dominant political forces in both countries (Hamas and Netanyahu's Likud) are unwittingly functional to keep the other in place, blowing on the fire of conflict and "justifying" each other's presence. I don't see a solution at hand, if anything because the situation has actually worsened throughout recent years.

no side can get the moral highground?

which side breaks into people's homes and stabs children in their sleep?
which side and educates its young to hate and desire to to kill?
which side celebrates the murder of innocent people?

there's your answer.

israel's siege mentality is the only thing it can do.

destroy hamas? not an option. too many palestinians support them. killing off their leadership will just result in replacements, causing the organization to collapse will result in a different terrorist organization take its place.

give the palestnianis an independent state? not an option. their leadership is not even willing to recognize isreal as the jewish state. how can we have peace with a state like that?
a palestinian state will easily result in gaza 2.0

remove the siege? DEFIENTLY not an option. nothing will stop the palestnians to amass weapons and do their terror attacks.

so israel has no other option than to continue the siege. and is too afraid of public opinion to try anything new.

"Because foreign domination always works and the submitted population never rebels. Those are definitive solutions"

they 'rebelled' and wanted to kill us way before there was any foreign dominion. this dominion is a RESULT of their never-ending murder sprees. not the other way around.

I must have missed the part where I said that terrorism is justified. Silly me. Hamas is, without doubts, one of the bad guys in this story, but not the only one.

It wasn't long ago that there were serious talks about peace and Hamas was but a small group of extremists, yet the negotiations fell through, and the fault is equally split between the two factions.

Sharon and Netanyahu's policies have been, to put it nicely, nearsighted. Since they were in a dominant position, they felt like they didn't have to cave in to international demands, they didn't have to withdraw the colonies, the didn't have to stop occupy Cis-Jordan, and they stopped every possible formation of a Palestine state.

Seeing that peace wasn't working, the Palestinians reverted back to what they thought could work: terror. So now Hamas is back, using every poor son of a bitch that happens to live there as a meatshield because you can't discern bloodthirsty militants from innocent bystanders.

By suggesting to invade back the territories you're not proposing a solution, you're just perpetrating a vicious cycle that started long ago.

P. S.: "siege mentality" is when you're paranoid and convinced you're surrounded by enemies. I'm not saying that it isn't justified, but it's certainly not helping. I hope that, even though every Hamas member is Palestinian, you don't think that every Palestinian is a member of Hamas. If you do, then I don't know if you'll ever be satisfied about how the world sees you.

Never in my life have I ever met somebody so ignorant, so goddamn delusional. So dense in the head that it causes people like me burst a blood vessel in my head.

For the hundredth time, STOP TRYING TO PLAY THE GODDAMN VICTIM OF THIS ENTIRE CONFLICT BECAUSE YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE ARE NOT THE VICTIMS.

Let me ask you people a few questions.

What kind of nation in this entire world would allow or justify soldiers to imprison, beat, torture and interrogate innocent children without any reason and without any legal action?

What Country in the world is allowed to shoot an unarmed and nonthreatening person with down syndrome? What Justifies that?

What country in the world allows itself to get away with deliberately cutting off another peoples water supply during Ramadan? What possible reasons or justifications do they have to already make a people suffer even more than they have to by denying them every human being's basic right to water?

What country in this world has a leader who tried to completely rewrite history by absolving Hitler of the holocaust by blaming the Palestinians of that era? Who is it that tried to convince people that Adolf Hitler got the idea to kill the Jews en mass from a Muslim leader of Palestine

What country in this world refuses to this day allow any form of construction supplies or materials to help Rebuild Gaza since the last conflict?

What is that? you say what people celebrate the death and suffering of innocent people? Need you be reminded once more about this? Your own people watching on hillside, chanting and cheering for the bombs and airstrikes being dropped on Gaza like its the 4'th of July?

Even after all of these fact I have listed down, do any of you still have the reasoning to say that Israel is the victim in all of this and that Hamas and the Palestinian people are the biggest problem in this entire conflict?

Do any of you people have the nerve to try and find any justifications to any of these atrocities that Israel has, and continues to do on a daily basis to the Palestinians?

AM I THE ONLY PERSON HERE WHO UNDERSTANDS THAT THE ONLY REASON THAT THERE IS CONSTANT TENSION BETWEEN THE PALESTINIANS AND THE APARTHEID STATE OF ISRAEL IS BECAUSE OF THE GROSS AMOUNT OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS BEING VIOLATED DUE TO THE OCCUPATION?

CAN ANY OF YOU PEOPLE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS OR AM I JUST FUCKING INSANE? SOMEONE PLEASE TRY AND FIND ANY REASONABLE ANSWERS TO HOW PALESTINE IS THE ENEMY HERE AND ISRAEL IS NOT?

ok lets answer your questions.

al-jazeera articles are as untrustworthy as pravda articles. no point even reading it.

but yes, israel foes imprison palestinians and interrogate them. because, you know. 60% of them SUPPORT TERRORSIM.
maybe if they stopped tryin to kill us EVERY . SINGLE . DAY . we wouldn't need to capture and interrogate them.

the down syndrom in a single isolated case done by a single soldier which is under formal investigation. and it happened in the dark when the force was under the ever-so-mundane stone and molotov throwing.

then we have another article from a pro-palestinian israel-demonzing site. which again is not worth reading.
as for the question. the water-supply problem was a major fuckup of the Mekorot company which affected many jews as well. but yes. go on and say its deliberately done to make the palestinians suffer.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.726132

said the truth. he simply had a context error, which hi later APOLIGIZED FOR. the palestinan leader Al-Husseini DID encaurage hitler to kill the jews. he did try helping him to kill jews as much as possible to the point where he sent volunteers to the SS extermination squads.
the only error netanyahu had was saying that he gave hitler the idea.

on the other hand you have the palestinans who lie about "jewish rabbis poisoning our wells" http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.726657
and say that israel started the war of 1948. who is rewriting history again? give me a break.

why are not allowing construction material into gaza? gee i donnu. MAYBE BECAUSE ITS USED FOR OFFENSIVE TUNNELS? matbe because like 10% of these materials are actually used to rebuild gaza and the rest go for terrorsim purposes???

not to mention that israel DOES allow contruction material to be sent to gaza. not its fault that hamas uses it for their own purposes.

and wow. way to compare israelis who watch legitimate targets being destroyed with flashy explosions to palestnians to consider child killers as heroes.

answer me this. what other nation considers child killers, elderly murderers and sadistic psychopaths as heroes and models of inspiration? http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4823573,00.html (use google translate)

what other nation educate its young that killing jews is the right thing to do?

what other nation considers murdering babies in their sleep as legitimate rebellion?
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4823447,00.html (use google translate)

have you considered that all the actions that is brought against them is a result of them trying to kill us every single day, for the past 80 years?

@computerfriend
"Sharon and Netanyahu’s policies have been, to put it nicely, nearsighted. Since they were in a dominant position, they felt like they didn’t have to cave in to international demands, they didn’t have to withdraw the colonies, the didn’t have to stop occupy Cis-Jordan, and they stopped every possible formation of a Palestine state"

Sharon was the one to withdraw from gaza and ruin the lives of 10k settlers.
did that bring us closer to peace? nope. only allowed hamas to seize power. so your theory doesn't work.
also, they are not colonies. its people living in houses. which also provide lots of work places for the palestinians.
israel suggested to give control said people to the Palestinian goverment but they in turn. demand that their nation will be juden-rhine
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Abbas-wants-not-a-single-Israeli-in-future-Palestinian-state-321470

he then also refuses to recognize israel as the jewish state http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/abbas-we-ll-never-sign-deal-demanding-recognition-of-israel-as-jewish-state-1.319329

so nothing can be done other than keeping the siege or do a massive re-education program for the palestinians.

I am sorry, but are you really suggesting a massive brainwash of a foreign population so that they can love their "benevolent" masters? Doesn't that sound at least a little bit wrong to your ears?

Also, those two articles. Even if we consider them not biased (and I don't think they are biased) the way you present their content is a gross misrepresentation of what Abbas actually said.

The Palestinian Authority, as the second article you posted points out, has already recognized Israel as a state back in 1993. A judaic state is a different thing, it suggests that every Arab living there is actually a second-class citizen, and maybe not a citizen at all. All this while Israel, on the other hand, never recognized Palestine as an autonomous nation.

And despite the title, the actual quote in the second article makes it really clear that he's talking about peace forces in the region, since he's not against a similar mission under a UN flag.
Also, "Before agreeing to return to talks last week, Palestinian officials were adamant that negotiations should have three main prerequisites: the release of veteran Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, a full settlement freeze and an acknowledgment of the 1967 lines as the basis for future borders.". While I understand why Israel would be reticent on the first point, the other two seem like reasonable requests to discuss the creation of an independent state – something I understand you are, for some reason, opposed to a priori .

Is also clear that you believe Abbas to be an enemy, which is baffling considering the history of conflict between him and Hamas and the fact that some Israeli officials even consider him "a nonthreatening, violence-abhorring, strategic asset." (No Exit? Gaza & Israel Between Wars, International Crisis Group Middle East Report N° 162, 26 August 2015).

About the settlements: I saw the photos. They look a lot like fortresses to me, guarded by your army. I won't argue about the effect they actually have on Palestine economy, since I have no data, but the fact that there are new settlements currently being built seems like a clear violation of the autodetermination of the Palestine state, something that has been de facto recognized by a good chunk of the UN at this point, with another half not doing it because of Israel demands.

At this point Israel is exercising right by might in that region, and that's not acceptable if you truly want peace.

PPS: since you don't seem to understand: you are the ones that are convinced to be sieged. You are the ones that are paranoid.

well i dont see any solution besides a massive brainwashing.

whenever a terrorist kills jews. they celebrate
whenever a terrorist is killed, he becomes a saint and a martyr
whenever a terrorist is in prison they are considered as heroes and their families gets funding from the palestnian goverment http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=1005
whenever an arab speaks against this hate industry and blind hatred. they must run for their lives – http://www.timesofisrael.com/terror-victim-hid-arab-zionist-teen-during-gaza-war/

palestinian childeren are tought that jews are descendants of pigs and have no right to live in this land https://unitedwithisrael.org/the-palestinian-authority-education-system-a-recipe-for-hate-and-terror

this is all doing of the palestinian government. after that you wonder why we consider abbas an enemy.

abbas is the enemy of hamas the same way ISIS is the enemy of al-qaeda. the few israeli politicians that actually consider him a partner for peace are either liars for the sake of PR or delusional like the people who thought giving islamists american training to fight against assad.

the negotiations.

freezing the settlements. was already done before, and didn't help. the terror attacks still continued and even intensified as we projected weakness and the will to bend over.

releasing "imprisoned veterans" a.k.a CONVICTED MURDERERS. – absolutely unacceptable. the mere notion that releasing child killers from prison JUST TO START A NEGOTIATION is enough to show how much of a crud the Palestinians really give about peace.

and thats why negotiation is impossible. and that's besides the fact that abbas refuses to recognize israel as a jewish state. which is something so easy and basic, that refusing it just again, shows their real intentions.

also, as i said, the palestinans wan their idependant state to be CLEAN FROM JEWS. which is again. not only shows their true racist intetions. but also forces the expulsion of about 500k people out of their homes and god knows to where. which is pretty impossible.
if the palestinians would just acquire the terretories and keep the settlers in. i would never mind. but again, they want a jew-clean state.

oh and they also demand jerusalem to be their capitol which is never going to happen. considering how holy this place is for the jewish people.

as for the settlements

they look like fortresses because otherwise arabs could easily get in and murder innocent people. do you think the settlers enjoy living caged behind walls and fences? they must have them to keep them safe.
if the palestinans did not try to kill us every single day, there would never be any fences walls or checkpoints.

the settlements actually benefit the palestinans. here's what happens when "human rights" organization cause a factory to be closed in the west bank: http://www.timesofisrael.com/victory-for-bds-as-sodastreams-last-palestinian-workers-lose-their-jobs/

so who wins here? how will those 500 workers benfit that the israeli factory was closed? is that what you think will bring peace?

and the arabs are DEFINETLY not 2nd class citizens. the ones with israeli citizenship can be in very high profile positions, policemen, judges and even politicans and parliament members. which doesn't step their hatred against isreal and the jewish people.

so when you add all this up. there are either 2 options – keep them locked like a cage
or re-educate them.

if you think anything else is possible, lets hear it. because withdrawing will just result in gaza 2.0 and you know it

Has anyone considered what would happen if the Palestinians got their own land, especially anytime soon?

Imagine, if you will, suddenly having a Palestinian state, which means the Palestinian diaspora in the various Arab states that continue to treat them as refugees would end. You're looking at the Western Bank of Palestine potentially having an influx of millions of people. Does the PA have the infrastructure to deal with their population potentially doubling in a very short amount of time? Does it have the logistical resources? The reality is that it does not. The country would be in dire need of direct aid to build it's infrastructure, and that could and would take years. God forbid, that in that time, someone in that new state of Palestine decides it would be great to threaten the guaranteed security of Israel and invoke a potentially new economic sanctions if not blockades.

Who would come to aid them in that time? Egypt? Jordan? The two neighboring countries which have no admiration for the Palestinians whatsoever?

And then let's talk about external securities, this little country would have to directly deal with a growing threat of ISIS, which would love to prey on a relatively weak, and chaotic Palestine. It would be a hot bed for recruitment, as resentment towards the failure of it's governments to do anything to alleviate the problems now that the Israeli scapegoat is no longer applicable.

And let's talk about the political divide between the West Bank and Hamas controlled Gaza. Would they serve as a single state divided by a country – would they be divided?

And what if the more radical forces stages a coup (which is already a threatening reality) and enforce yet another HAMAS west bank that is he bent on warring with Israel. This time it's a sovereign nation state attacking another nation state, so how would the rest of the world react? What articles of occupation would they site? Which Arab country will come to aid when they are more interested in working WITH Israel than against it more and more?

This is the reality that I am sure the Palestinian authority has to actually face and consider. Which is probably why they demand that Palestinians are also given the right of return, to alleviate the tide and have Israel take the burden of sudden refugees.

So what are the realistic solutions to end this conflict. Unfortunetly, almost all the realistic and practical solutions are on the shoulders of Palestinians more than the Israelies.

Firstly: the UN must, absolutely must, end the generational passing down of the refugee status. The Palestinians are the only group of refugees in the world that have their refugee status passed down by generations. This is at the behest of the other Arab countries, all of which have been dependent on the using the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as a scapegoat for their own internal problems.

Secondly: The world community must pressure existing Arab states that have large Palestinian populations that live as second class citizens, or refugees be integrated into their society. This can be done by giving them greater aid, opening up economic opportunities, and diplomacy.

Thirdly: The PA and HAMAS must acknowledge that with sovereignty comes the reality of playing by the rules. You declare war, be prepared to dealt with as a warring state.

Fourth: Israel and other European, Arab, and Western Allies should form a way for the Palestinians themselves to get financial recoup of loss of damages, this could be anywhere from a monthly stipend or direct aid in rebuilding the nation.

Fifth: The Arab world itself needs to go beyond the perpetual Nakba they live under, and begin to normalize relations with the west and Israel. The rhetoric of colonialization is only good at driving the ire of pseudo-Socialists and play revolutionaries western nations.

Sixth: Israel must grant total sovereignty to Gaza and the West Bank, based on a realistic borders, and not the pre-1967 borders which was between Israel and Jordan.

Seventh: failure to accept the peace exchange by either party would face diplomatic problems, and economic sanctions. Why does the world continue to support either party for failure to abide by, or actually sign treaties.

Sorry Palestine, and Palestinians, but you are negotiating from a weaker position. You've time and time again were given excellent treaties of exchange which you have either turned down, or outright ignored.

@Jolly Jew

If you are advocating for the brainwash of an entire people, and somehow still think you have the moral high ground, then I see no point in talking with you anymore.

@Chewybunny

Those are all valid points, however I think we can concur that none of the parties involved are innocent and that Israel in recent years have contributed to the exacerbation of the conflict, rather than its solution.

See you say that neither side is innocent, but that's not the point.

The point is that the Palestinians are taking an all or nothing stance. They want their land and they want to be free of Jews. They don't want to get bombed anymore yet they continue to be bombers themselves.

It's one or the other, and if they're not willing to accept that then this conflict will go on and on.

Blame Israel all you want, they shouldn't have to be the "big man" of this situation and bend over backwards for people that hate their guts. Jews are dealing with people who literally want them wiped off the face of the Earth. You can hardly blame them for the hard-line stance they take.

Innocence has nothing to do with it. You cannot possibly find moral equivalences between the two belligerents here. Any attempt to do so forces you to suspect any realistic moral positions you have. Sure, both have done some shitty things, but one is clearly way worse than the other, with it's goals, it's methodology, it's intentions, and it's execution. This argument of equivalency is nonsensical, pointless, and seeks to justify continual terrorist violence, while outright ignoring the conditions the same group experiences in other countries.

And what have the Israelis been doing to exacerbate the conflict? Buying land from Palestinians in Area C? Demolishing buildings built by the EU against all Israeli building codes? Increasing settlement construction in already presumed areas that will be kept? Responding to a barrage of rocket attacks from Gaza that they only with drew from for promises of peace? Please, enlighten me.

Last I checked it wasn't Israel that was the instigator of major conflicts. Almost a decade ago, the Abbas was given nearly everything he and his cause wanted, literally, but the man admitted that he didn't even bother to read the agreement. Now a new PM is in charge, that is garnering political power from continual failure of any peace process – the failure of the Palestinians in Gaza to uphold their end of the bargain, the continual, and unnecessary intrusion by the high and mighty moral police of the Europeans. I mean, honestly, at what point are people going to acknowledge t he reality of the situation? At what point will the rest of the world see that the Palestinians have always been political pawns, that time and time again failed to accept a legitimate peace plan and actual sovereignty in hopes of garnering more and more concessions? That no other group of refugees has ever been treated like them, the amount of squandered resources. The billions that their own leadership literally stole!

Personally, I am exhausted that this conflict is going on. I am exhausted that the world treats the Palestinians as play things for their own political amusement. I am exhausted the continual hypocrisy that everyone levies on all sides of this conflict, the utter ignorance of the depth, complexity, and bullshit problems that this conflict has.

This. A thousand times this.

this "brainwashing" that you are so deathly afraid of – was already fully implemented TWICE in recent history – imperial japan, and in nazi germany. and some might argue de-Stalinization as well…

and in all cases the results were more than positive. so i really have no idea what you're so worried about

I think you are both equating Palestine and Hamas, which I think is not an accurate assessment of the situation. We have the PNA and we got Hamas. One is a embryo of a state, the other one is a terrorist group, one has recognised Israel as a state while the other has the destruction of Jews in its statute. It's like equating the Iraqi government to Daesh.

There's no excuse to the actions of Hamas and negotiation with terrorists is not an option, but not every Palestinian is a terrorist. And while the PNA hasn't been effective in fighting them, the control they have over the West Bank territory is minimal, and that's partially a responsibility of Israel.

And yes, the PNA has been extremely nearsighted in his stance, but Israel is forced to act as the "big man" in the name of peace, since they are negotiating from a position of power, otherwise what interest they have in negotiating the control of a territory they already control de facto?

Mind you, I am convinced that the Israeli have the right to their land, and I'm more inclined towards their side of the argument when treating this fuckheap: they are a true democracy, they aren't the one who started this war and the whole Arab world has acted in the shadiest way possible when dealing with it. I think that propaganda spread by the Arab side of the conflict is one of the driving forces of the ongoing massacre. I understand why Israel decided to act this way but that doesn't make it less of a mistake, and toeing the same hard line that hasn't worked for decades and then act migthily surprised when the violence starts all over again is just stupid and it will never cease to be stupid.

Also, you decry "hipocrisy" and the "unnecessary intrusion by the […] moral police of the Europeans". I know a lot of people that see only one side of the conflict and that's what I'm really fighting here, and sincerely getting accused of hipocrisy just because I'm trying to get both sides of the argument equally represented is ridiculous when you are siding with someone that presents the Palestinians as some kind of bloodthirsty population of monstrous killers and advocates for deportation and public executions.

@Jolly Jew
Nice use of false equivalencies. The Americans worked with a newly established government and they didn't occupy indefinitely a foreign territory. What you're proposing is more in line with what the USSR did.

"I think you are both equating Palestine and Hamas, which I think is not an accurate assessment of the situation. We have the PNA and we got Hamas. One is a embryo of a state, the other one is a terrorist group, one has recognised Israel as a state while the other has the destruction of Jews in its statute. It’s like equating the Iraqi government to Daesh."

Speaking for myself, I am not. I know the differences, where HAMAS is way worse and is hell bent on the destruction of Israel, and is ready to directly attack them with rockets, the recent wave of terrorism didn't come from Gaza, but from the West Bank. It's leadership, that is, Abbas, refuses to condemn such behavior, and in fact, such behavior is praised – as these terrorists are viewed as martyrs. That embryo of a state, still has a large segment of it's population wishing for total annihilation of the Israeli state, and has a large segment of it's population actively supporting terrorist attacks unto Israel. Even the recent joint quad report condemned the West Bank leadership of doing very little to discourage the violence.

"There’s no excuse to the actions of Hamas and negotiation with terrorists is not an option, but not every Palestinian is a terrorist. And while the PNA hasn’t been effective in fighting them, the control they have over the West Bank territory is minimal, and that’s partially a responsibility of Israel."

Right, and when the Israelis offered to withdraw and give more power to the PA earlier this March, they refused. And why would they accept such a deal – it would mean having to come face to face with local violent militia groups that are even today coming closer and closer to an outright West Bank coup. The PA Isn't capable of it, not when they have such a large segment of their own population so ready to rebel against them.

"And yes, the PNA has been extremely nearsighted in his stance, but Israel is forced to act as the “big man” in the name of peace, since they are negotiating from a position of power, otherwise what interest they have in negotiating the control of a territory they already control de facto?"

That's a loaded bullshit statement. Why should negotiations be predicated on forcing both sides into an equilibrium. The Israelis don't have to be "the big man" here, just because they are in the position of power. The Palestinians have to be ready to accept what is generously given to them because they are in such a weak position. And they were already offered a seriously good offer even from a position of relatively high power, and they STILL REFUSED. You're not going to come up to a negotiation table with little to offer, and expect the other party to conceded so much of their own position to yours. That's ludicrous. No nation behaves like that. The fact that Israel in 2006, offered nearly 90% of the land that the Palestinians wanted, with an additional 5% in land swaps, is beyond generosity of what any nation in history has demanded. Abbas didn't even see the agreement, he outright ignored it, by his own admission!

"Israel decided to act this way but that doesn’t make it less of a mistake, and toeing the same hard line that hasn’t worked for decades and then act migthily surprised when the violence starts all over again is just stupid and it will never cease to be stupid." They haven't toed the line for decades. For a good long time they were notoriously generous in their offers. Hell! They relinquished control of Gaza, ffs, for promises of peace, and almost immediately that peace was broken, by Gazans! It's the continual refusal of the international community, i.e Europe, to put pressure on Palestinians to accept a deal, the continual condemnation by the UN, the continual refusal of the Palestinians to even come to the table anymore, and continual terrorist attacks and wars with Gaza, that they have become increasingly hard lined in less than 1 decade.

"Also, you decry “hipocrisy” and the “unnecessary intrusion by the […] moral police of the Europeans”. I know a lot of people that see only one side of the conflict and that’s what I’m really fighting here, and sincerely getting accused of hipocrisy just because "

I'm not accusing you of hypocrisy, dude. I'm accusing the Europeans as a whole. But I am not surprised, Europe especially has a large number of Arabs, which influence public policy, and Europe is also highly dependent on mid-East oil, meaning they have to tip-toe the line of offending the Arabs or not. I get it. But let's be honest about it.

"I’m trying to get both sides of the argument equally represented is ridiculous when you are siding with someone that presents the Palestinians as some kind of bloodthirsty population of monstrous killers and advocates for deportation and public executions."

Yes, but it also seems that you're implying that both sides are equivalent when they clearly are not. And just because one side has arguments to be made, doesn't mean those arguments are in anyway sound.

As far as the Palestinians as a blood thirsty population. Polls show that a large segment of them are. Their behavior, as a large group, when one of their own commits haneous acts terrorism in Israel only perpetuates this notion. The behavior of their own government, when such terrorism happens, perpetuates this image.

Personally. I don't believe they are. I personaly believed they have been spoon fed propoganda their entire lives. Personally, I believe they view themselves as deserving out of principle, and entitled, and violence comes out of it when that entitlement isn't met.

But, then I ask: half the Palestinian population still lives in Arab lands; their cousins, brothers, etc. And those Arabs, like Lebanon treat them far worse than Israel does. In many of those countries they are not allowed to even integrate into the societies. No refugee group on Earth has ever had that. No other refugee group on Earth has had their refugee status become hereditary. No other refugee group on Earth has an entire UN commission dedicated to serving them, employing them, giving them aid with little to no exceptions or demands.

So is it any wonder that they feel this entitled?

I never wanted to say that both sides were equivalent. If that's so, well, then I've clearly not explained myself well at all and that's my fault.
Also, I feel that the Netanyahu's government has been characterized by an hardening of the stance and bigger concessions to radical right groups in Israel – if this impression is correct or somewhat distorted by the fact that, being European, I am informed mainly through European medias of various genre, I don't know.

Facts are, violence has been on a sharp decline since the end of the second Intifada (2005), but is on the rise again, and that the number of civilian victims is higher on the Palestinian side. That is to be expected, of course, considering the militias tactics, and I think there can be no doubt that the Palestinians are the aggressors in this war. But I think that Israel should still be criticized for some of its choices, which is something I am not seeing in this thread.

Also, if you want to accuse of lack of political pressure on the Palestinians, the US have been unshakeable in their support of the Israeli government in these years no matter their action, so much that Obama has been harshly criticized for not allineating himself to Netanyahu's views on negotiations with Iran (which is a whole other matter). Why? Because Israel is a strategic asset for the US in the region. Isn't this the biblical "speck in the eye"? Everyone is acting to obtain political gain. What a surprise.

As for the loaded bullshit: then let's not do any negotiations at all, since Israel controls the region. Why should they weaken themselves? There are international resolutions that they have consistently ignored. Am I saying that the Palestinians are right to presume something is owed to them? No. Am I saying that they are not responsible for most negotiations going through? Not at all. But keeping this dialogue between deaf people going won't solve anything. Since Israel is the most reasonable side of the argument, is it really that strange that we are arguing with them?

The Arab world as a whole has acted terribly towards the refugee situation, I've said that before and I'll say that again. But ultimately, i think this is beyond the topic at hand. The question (rather rhetorically asked, I might say) was what to do with the Palestinians. I argued with JJ's rather radical view (as I think it's appropriate, seeing he's the OP). You didn't even interact with him.

"Also, I feel that the Netanyahu’s government has been characterized by an hardening of the stance and bigger concessions to radical right groups in Israel – if this impression is correct or somewhat distorted by the fact that, being European, I am informed mainly through European medias of various genre, I don’t know." It is partially true. The groups aren't radical, to say the least, they are just far more conservative and hawkish. And by the way, he is doing exactly what any politician is doing, sticking the finger in the wind and seeing where it blows. I pointed out that the continual failure of the peace process – the continual condemnation of Israel by Europe – makes more and more Israelis feel isolated politically. Why should they then have to bend the knee to a hostile European body who, not that long ago was doing far worse to them, as Jews? He's offered time and time again to meet with Abbas, who absolutely refuses. As I pointed out, Netanyahu in March even offered to withdraw the IDF and allow more power for the PA to take over.

"Facts are, violence has been on a sharp decline since the end of the second Intifada (2005), but is on the rise again, and that the number of civilian victims is higher on the Palestinian side. That is to be expected, of course, considering the militias tactics, and I think there can be no doubt that the Palestinians are the aggressors in this war. But I think that Israel should still be criticized for some of its choices, which is something I am not seeing in this thread."

Civilian "victims" or Civilians hell bent on committing knife attacks or terrorist attacks? I'd like to understand better what you mean by that. It isn't as if the Israelis outright target Palestinian civilians for execution, most of the time violence from the IDF occurs when there is violence committed to them. So the wording of the choice "victim" is strange here.

Of course Israel deserves criticism. But that criticism should come from some sort of rationality, not duplicity, not innate "oppressor vs oppressed" rhetoric. But that is all it increasingly get's from Europe. So when someone who views the two sides, sees the continual conflict, at a certain point, a large chunk of people are sitting here are placing most of the blame on the Palestinians. And considering the OP is now at what, -5 in upvotes kind of reinforces that people don't view this issue as one sided. They are, most likely, sympathetic to the Israelis more than they are of Palestinians.

"Also, if you want to accuse of lack of political pressure on the Palestinians, the US have been unshakeable in their support of the Israeli government in these years no matter their action, so much that Obama has been harshly criticized for not allineating himself to Netanyahu’s views on negotiations with Iran (which is a whole other matter). Why? Because Israel is a strategic asset for the US in the region. Isn’t this the biblical “speck in the eye”? Everyone is acting to obtain political gain. What a surprise."

What does THAT have to do with anything? We are talking about putting pressure on Palestinians, from Arab countries, and European countries that have a vested interest in seeing this conflict end. Of course the US shields Israel, but it's support is hardly unshakable. It's been shaken quite a lot with this presidency. Regardless, the pressure should be placed on Palestinians, at this point, since there is plenty of pressure already on Israel. And not based on this 1967 borders. Jesus Christ, sorry, you can't pretend that war didn't happen and erase it's existence from history because Europe is now so gun-shy about dealing with wars that gained or lost territories.

Right, and look at how the Iranians have behaved since the lifting of sanctions, mocking the US, mocking the West, openly building rockets that they shouldn't have been, outright proxy war with Saudi Arabia. In the case of Iran, it's becoming increasingly clear that Netanyahu and the Republicans are increasingly being shown that they may have been right. Sure made the Europeans happy though, they get a new source of oil and a new market to export to. Those 500,000 barrels a day, are delicious, no?

"As for the loaded bullshit: then let’s not do any negotiations at all, since Israel controls the region. Why should they weaken themselves? " Maybe because they want to at least show good faith to the world? Maybe because they genuinely want peace and security?

"Since Israel is the most reasonable side of the argument, is it really that strange that we are arguing with them?" You, tell me?! It seems that the vast majority of the players involved in the peace deal are continually arguing with Israel and not Palestine to accept some sort of a deal. It's damn strange that the one side that is more reasonable, rational, and willing to make major concessions, is the one getting the most flack.

"The Arab world as a whole has acted terribly towards the refugee situation, I’ve said that before and I’ll say that again. But ultimately, i think this is beyond the topic at hand. " Actually it's not. The very premise of Palestinian nationalism is predicated on them being a nationality supposedly separate from Arabs. They aren't. They are Jordanians. It's ironic to me that the Arab nations one the one hand scream about Israel attacking their brothers, their cousins, being the biggest political forces in keeping this conflict alive. But dare anyone actually ask them how they treat these brothers, these cousins? Why should this be ignored? They are THE biggest force in keeping this conflict aflame.

"The question (rather rhetorically asked, I might say) was what to do with the Palestinians."

Easy. Stop treating them as a special case. Treat them like real refugees, like all the refugees. And like all refugees treat them as such, allow for nations to integrate them. Force the Arab countries to integrate them into their countries. Or hell, if you're so damn concerned about them, why not invite them to intergrate into your societies? Withdraw continual non-stop UN support for their cause. Above all else, END the privilege of having their refugee status hereditary. Settle them wherever they care to be settled. Stop giving them the fuel to continually keep this conflict a flame. When they lose their economic benefits, when there is real political pressure on them, you bet your sweet butt that they will come to the table to negotiate a deal. Stop acting like they have some sort of a equal platitude to negotiate with Israel on concessions like pre-1967 borders (which is laughable), or the "right of return" which is demographically impossible. They are a people that are lucky as hell that they are even given the kind of concessions Israel manages, yet they deny them. You know what, if they keep denying this, they should be forced to lose the support of the international community wholly. Because, inevitably, that's what's already happening. It's either they do negotiate, make a deal, and walk away butt-hurt as they do, or they continue this conflict that will continue to put them into oblivion.

What has the US policy have to do with anything? Uh, I don't know, they're political players in the region, or the fact they don't recognize the Palestinian authority? You are the one who pointed out that Europeans are putting political pressure on Israel, citing economical reasons for it. And now I can't talk about how the US are supporting Israel for political reasons? Oh how silly of me to compare things that are oh so much different. Only the wimpy, corrupted Europeans are to blame if the situation is a stalemate.

And when did I say that I erase the wars from history? How? But it's been 50 years, ffs, and if that is not enough to say that the history of the Jordans and the Palestinians are separated by now then fuck me sideways.

There are separated statistics about Palestinian civilians who died as collateral damage and who were not combatants, and I'm only counting those, not terrorists. While they were obviously not the target of the Israeli attacks, I think that calling them victims is not farfetched at all. What is so hard to understand?

I've said time and time again that the other Arab nations are to blame, that they enacted shady policies, that they spread vicious propaganda among the Palestinians! Why do you keep bringing this up? I said I agree with most of the points you made. Why do you keep repeating them? Do you think I'm stupid or are you so obtuse that since I'm not completely agreeing with you then I'm refusing your whole argument?

You are not talking to the hypotetical Israel-hating radical, you are talking with me. I think both sides are wrong, in different measures, and should be pressured to find a peaceful solution, again, in different measures. And you feel is your duty to correct me, while a guy can say that the solution is public executions and you don't even flinch?

I must ask then: do you find my position less or more unreasonable than JJ's? If yes, then I'm seriously concerned for your moral compass. If not, then why are you asking me to correct my position rather than the stubborn radical?

"What has the US policy have to do with anything? Uh, I don’t know, they’re political players in the region, or the fact they don’t recognize the Palestinian authority? You are the one who pointed out that Europeans are putting political pressure on Israel, citing economical reasons for it. And now I can’t talk about how the US are supporting Israel for political reasons? Oh how silly of me to compare things that are oh so much different. Only the wimpy, corrupted Europeans are to blame if the situation is a stalemate."

What do you mean they don't recognize the PA? The US has been sending aid and security assistance to the PLO and the PA since Osslo Accords. The US has been critical of Israel's settler policy and has put pressure on them to stop, which by the way, they largely did for a good while. You can talk about the support that US are giving Israel, what made you think you can't? My point was the lack of any pressure on the Palestinians to sign any deal, where there is tremendous pressure on Israel to continuously come to the table, and they do.
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

"And when did I say that I erase the wars from history? How? But it’s been 50 years, ffs, and if that is not enough to say that the history of the Jordans and the Palestinians are separated by now then fuck me sideways." Not you. Please understand, I am not referring to you continuously, I am criticizing the premise of the peace plans in general; The premise of a peace deal pushed by Arabs, the Europeans and the Palestinians, and to an extent the Obama administration has been premised on pre-1967 borders. To me it sounds like "hey, let's just pretend there was no victors or losers in that conflict, and just go back to tabula rasa of pre 1967" despite the fact that since 50 years ago things have largely changed.

So what if they have a separate history, how does that separate them as a people? The Palestinian nationality is made up! It's entirely made up, prior to them existing they weren't Palestinians, they were, and continually ARE Jordanian.

"There are separated statistics about Palestinian civilians who died as collateral damage and who were not combatants, and I’m only counting those, not terrorists. While they were obviously not the target of the Israeli attacks, I think that calling them victims is not farfetched at all. What is so hard to understand?" Collateral damage in which conflict, though? Do you mean the 2014 Gaza war?

"I’ve said time and time again that the other Arab nations are to blame, that they enacted shady policies, that they spread vicious propaganda among the Palestinians! Why do you keep bringing this up? I said I agree with most of the points you made. Why do you keep repeating them? " Because you outright said: "The Arab world as a whole has acted terribly towards the refugee situation, I’ve said that before and I’ll say that again. But ultimately, i think this is beyond the topic at hand" It's not beyond the topic at all – it's wholly part of the topic, it's why I keep bringing it up, it's part and parcel.

"And you feel is your duty to correct me, while a guy can say that the solution is public executions and you don’t even flinch?" Because I am not having a conversation with that guy. I don't agree with him. I am presenting a position that you responded to, and my conversation is with you.

"I must ask then: do you find my position less or more unreasonable than JJ’s?" To an extent I find your position to be at least more rational. But JJ is living it (from what I understand). I am not, nor are you. I'm on the peripheral. The worst I had to deal with was hearing a call from my cousin who lost his fingers due to an explosive planted by a terrorist in Israel.

"If not, then why are you asking me to correct my position rather than the stubborn radical?" Again. My conversation is with you. Not JJ. I presented an alternative viewpoint that wasn't to anyone in particular, but in general. You responded to it, and I am focusing on the conversation with you.

eh? false equivalencies?

japan surrendered unconditionally to the us!
and not before
the US bombed japan to bloody oblivion. destroyed tokyo with fire bombs and oblitirated another two cities with atmoic bombs

and only after japan surrendered, the americans sent in their agents and made sue the entire bushido, emperor worshipping, and west-hating education were completly rooted out.

and dont get me started about the de-nazification process in germany.

so yes. the US did pretty much exactly what needs to be done with the palestinians, minus the atom and napalm bombardemnts

because thats the only thing you can do with nations that have racism and fanatism imprinted into their culture.

as for comment about needing to seperate between hamas and the palestinian goverment.

they are different yes. but their agenda is still the same. they both hate israel. they both preach for killing of jews. and they both deny israel being the jewish state.

oh sure abbas recognized israel as "a state" thats the most he was willnig to do. but he will never agree to recoginze israel as the jewish state, because that will mean he recognizes our right to live on the land and the right to be in peace.

oh and in the latest poll about 60% of the palestinans support hamas (links in previous posts) so it IS safe to assume that most palestnians support hamas.

you can blame and say that israel done bad things. but you can't deny that the only ones denying peace are the palestinians

oh and gotta love the karma bombing. is thats how people think "serious debate" should be?

just invalidate someone's opnion by rating it as spam or shitpost? that's just low. very low.

Ok, ok. I think we misunderstood each other.

See, what frustrates me is that I feel we are more or less on the same page, but we are differing on some details we can't really discuss on a forum thread and so we're basically arguing about nothing. We also kept switching the field of discussion: at times we're talking about a generic, hypotetical stance, at times we are focusing on specific points the other made. Add the fact that I already had an argument with JJ before and so for me it was a continuation of that discussion, even though it wasn't really your intention, and so it was like we were talking about two different things.

Basically, we're arguing with the ghost of an argument none of the two made, but we've faced time and time again in real life. Because, trust me, I've heard some batshit insane arguments made on both sides of the barricade. In the end I kinda lost my temper, as I didn't really understand what you were actually saying.

So yeah, I was arguing mostly with myself. That happens to me way more often than it should.

@Jolly Jew
I think I haven't made clear that I sympathize with the position the Israeli people is put through every day. My own city was victim of an internal terrorist attack and the wound never fully healed. I can only imagine what it must mean living through something so terrifying every day and if you felt that I was somehow blaming your people for the violence it suffers then I apologize, as that wasn't my intention.

TL;DR: Tired douchebag goes on an off topic tirade.

Ay, I think we did. Apologies, English is a second language to me, so sometimes I don't make things as clear as I intend.

I am frustrated too. I am frustrated and tired of the situation and as I said earlier, just outright exhausted by the bullshit that continues.

Friend Computer said:

Also, I feel that the Netanyahu’s government has been characterized by an hardening of the stance and bigger concessions to radical right groups in Israel

That's what happens when you have near constant terror attacks--the populace will swing toward the political side that boasts of security, and that's almost always going to be the right.

…the fact they don’t recognize the Palestinian authority?

Funny, considering most of Europe doesn't recognize them either.

…should be pressured to find a peaceful solution…

I think that's the absolute worst thing you can do. You can't force peace on someone--look at pretty much every African civil war as an example. Peace can only really be achieved if both sides want it. Otherwise, the hatred and anger will only fester and bubble under the surface until the tinderbox is ignited. If Europe tries to force it's will onto the middle east again, it's only going to end just as badly as the last time they did.

…less or more unreasonable than JJ’s?

JJ's hit the heart of the conflict--the cultural and societal problems that allow the conflict to carry on into the fourth generation. I don't consider them ideal nor would they likely be able to be carried out (whether through UN or Arab League action), but, in a vacuum, they'd certainly end the conflict with a lasting peace. It's born of a person who has rockets pointed at him on one side, a civil war with heads getting chopped off and barrel bombs exploded on the other, and a continent to the north who fucked it all up to begin with and now thinks they're intervention can fix it.

Yours I feel would sound great and everyone would cheer them on, but the conflict wouldn't really be resolved, only papered over with a facade of handshakes and smiles. Tensions fester under the surface, then, a decade later, a car bomb goes off, both sides go at it again, and the UNSC sends a letter condemning the peace's violation in the strongest possible terms. It's born of a person who's had half a century of peace and bureaucrats.

The best solution is that both sides realize this is going nowhere and will either end in MAD or one the total victor over the other and begin the process of de-escalation and purging the hatred and propaganda from the cultures. It's born of a naive hope that human nature and our emotional reactions and desires won't win the day.

@xTSGx

I don't feel that the birth of a Palestine state would resolve it either, but I think it would be an important step towards a peaceful solution. As for the pressuring, maybe you're right, but I'm somewhat doubtful that we can really expect either of the parts involved to spontaneously search for a peace treaty without pressure, as the best solution would surely upset both at the current state. The hope, as you said, it's that both parties realize that peace would be ultimately beneficial for both. Let's hope that the recent spike in violence doesn't devolve again in something worse.

@Chewybunny

English isn't my native language, either. That makes writing posts really hard and stressful when you're arguing with someon.

@Jolly Jew

The Allied direct occupation of Germany lasted a grand total of 4 years after the war ended, and the first chancellor of West Germany (Adenauer), while certainly not a Nazi, had been previously removed from office because he wasn't allineated with the Allied British governor. I think it's safe to say that the situation is fairly different.

As for Israel being a Jewish state, I think that nations can be peaceful and rightful even without the adfirmation of a religion as official. Most nations (well, civil nations) don't define themselves on a religious definition.

60% of Palestinians is a large majority, but not the totality. Re-education, as you call it, isn't likely to win the heart of that 60%, but could alienate that 40%.

"either of the parts involved to spontaneously search for a peace treaty without pressure, as the best solution would surely upset both at the current state."

you are right.

except the Palestinians were never pressured at all. israel get's global denunciations for merely building houses in their cities while the palestnians are free to continue their hate education and glorification of murder.

the process of peace will start when people especially the world leaders will stop putting the burden of the negotiations on israel alone and will actually pressure the palestnians as well.

"As for Israel being a Jewish state, I think that nations can be peaceful and rightful even without the adfirmation of a religion as official. Most nations (well, civil nations) don’t define themselves on a religious definition.
60% of Palestinians is a large majority, but not the totality. Re-education, as you call it, isn’t likely to win the heart of that 60%, but could alienate that 40%"

it's not about religion. like 70% of all the isarelis are not religios. its about ethnicity and nationality.

israel wants, rightfully so, that the Palestinians will recognize israel as the the state of the jewish nation. that we have the right to live here and that the palestinans will stop "reclaiming their land" after the peace treaty was signed.

if something as basic as that is refused. there is no way to keep going.

and again. the de-nazification and re-education of japan and germany was possible after they SURRENDERED, had a west-sympathizing leader installed by the allies. and had everything changed from the inside out.

had the above been done with the palestnians, we would never needed to occupy them. we'd both have our countries with open borders so anyone could visit whatever holy site they want.

but this re-education would be considered 'inhuman' and 'aggressive' so isreal, didnt want that…

before this thread dies. here's a little reminder why the siege of gaza will never be liften as long as hamas is in power:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4839849,00.html

yeah. because a terrorist organization that builds training facilities for marine commandos with STOLEN UN MONEY is something anyone would allow