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this is purely a debate about religion. i don't want any politics here.

so modern Christianity is generally a cool religion as far as i saw. it has a few conflicting issues with judaism but it's really just a matter of preference and who you were born as. both religions preach for tolerance, friendship, justice etc. etc.

the one thing that truly bothers me about Christianity: ETERNAL HELL.

first off, right off that bat, being tortured for infinity, for finite sins is already bothersome. its completely exaggerated punishment. even the worst atrocities of humanity eventually ended. yet the punishment for the is to be tortured without end. how is that fair?

and second major issue, that puts me off. is the belief that anyone who is NOT christian, will be burning in hell forever regardless of anything else.
a person that was kind and charitable his whole life? nope, still will go to hell, because he was a muslim
or even worse. people who never even heard of Christianity will burn in hell. yeah, how exactly is it a moral belief that some native in the african jungles will be eternally tormented simply because he never got the chance to here about Jesus?
and to make matters even worse. BABIES who didn't get the chance to be baptized burn in hell too! why? simply because they didn't get the chance to pledge their faith to the lord.

im sorry if i sound disrespectful but it really annoys me. how is it moral to believe that people who don't share your faith will be in extreme pain forever?

I don't believe in Hell. Simple as that.

IIRC, a survey a while back showed that more Christians believed in Heaven than believed in Hell, so that's not all that unpopular an opinion.

Well arguably the text never implies any actual hell, that's just the popular interpretation. I've heard from many Christians and students of Christianity that it's just a place away from God aka not heaven, not eternal punishment. Also there are always exceptions to the "unforgiving" thing. Like I think there actually are exceptions made for those who never got a chance to know Christianity, particularly babies.

And the New Testament preaches a lot about forgiveness which strengthens this idea. Jesus died so that more people could go to heaven.

interesting. all the movies and documentaries (especially about dante's inferno and its ilk) had me thinking that all christians believe in eternal hell.

yeah laugh at me for as much as i like for falling for media stereotypes…

I think a lot of people subscribe to the idea of Hell describes in Dante's Divine Comedy. Specifically the existence of Limbo and Purgatory.

Limbo is where the so-called "virtuous pagans" are sent, such as unbaptized babies or people who lived a virtuous life but weren't Christian. It's not a place of torture, but it's devoid of happiness (I've also heard interpretations where any souls in Limbo will be allowed into heaven during the Rapture).

Purgatory from what I understand is where the sinners who are truly sorry for their sins are sent to atone. The atonement lasts in the order of thousands of years and matches whatever sin they committed in life (such as those who committed sloth having to role a boulder up an incline for thousands of years). Once you've finished atoning for your sins you're allowed into Heaven.

I personally don't believe in Heaven or Hell, but I think a lot of Christians believe, at least in part, in Limbo and Purgatory, mostly to address the concerns you raised OP.

^ Of course Dante's work was largely a description of his personal beliefs and prejudices, which is why several of his IRL enemies are depicted in the various areas of hell where they suffer accordingly for how they wronged him.

The points you brought up here are exactly what pushed me away from Christianity in the first place. That being said, there are thousands of different interpretations of Christianity and they all deal with Hell in their own way. I've never met someone who believed that babies and people who were never exposed to Christianity will go to hell. And while I'm sure there are denominations that do believe that, I'd be willing to bet that it's an unpopular opinion. Limbo and Purgatory are important parts of Catholic theology but I'm pretty sure most Protestants don't believe in them.

TL:DR, Christian beliefs about Hell vary depending on your denomination.

Ironically if anything fits the description of hell accurately it would be life minus the eternal part.

' Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.'

I've never seen a good argument against this part of the Epicurus quote other than someone getting into a convoluted debate with me on the definitions and origins of the word "evil".

{ first off, right off that bat, being tortured for infinity, for finite sins is already bothersome. }

You go to hell as a Christian for unrepentant sins. I don't see why it's unreasonable to assume those who sin and don't see the error of their ways will be punished as eternally as their conviction.

{ a person that was kind and charitable his whole life? nope, still will go to hell, because he was a muslim }

Debatable. Jews accept God's truth, by all accounts of the Old Testament, that's all they need to do to go to heaven. If you're a Christian you believe that you have to accept God and Christ to go to heaven, so Jews are out. Muslims accept God and Jesus as the messiah but not as Christ, so they're a grey area.

{ and to make matters even worse. BABIES who didn’t get the chance to be baptized burn in hell too! }

Untrue, only argued by people with no reading comprehension who interpret Mark 16:16 poorly. Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

If being baptized were important, surely those who do not believe and are not baptized will be condemned, yet it is only those who do not believe that are. We can easily change the second part of the first statement to illustrate this point. He who believes and goes to Church every Sunday will be saved… etc etc. The constant is that you believe.

{ people who never even heard of Christianity will burn in hell. }

Also debatable but the standard is that pagans/etc who recognize a higher power have recognized God, because God is the higher power behind all things, even if they don't know it to be Him. This is why there's such an emphasis on Christian ministry.

Christianity isn't a universalist religion, though, there is no promise of "all people will go to heaven to reunite with God no matter what because we're all His children even though some of us were misguided".

{ I’ve never seen a good argument against this part of the Epicurus quote }

Free will, thanks to Adam and Eve. There was a paradise free from evil, remember? The original sinners fucked that up for the rest of us. You can choose to be led away by all the evils in the world, God gave you both warnings and the guidance you need to reject that evil. Without free will we're just animals. Animals only do what they must to keep themselves alive, they have no free will and they have no evil.

{Free will, thanks to Adam and Eve. There was a paradise free from evil, remember? The original sinners fucked that up for the rest of us. You can choose to be led away by all the evils in the world, God gave you both warnings and the guidance you need to reject that evil. Without free will we’re just animals. Animals only do what they must to keep themselves alive, they have no free will and they have no evil.}

How can I remember when I was raised without being taught to read any religious texts? That aside, I can still understand the definitions of evil and that explains nothing. What do the original sinners have to do with people being sent to Auschwitz? What do the original sinners have to do with a human being supposedly created "in his image" being born with cerebral palsy? Since the actions of my sinner descendants in the past are beyond my control and it was clearly out of god's control as you put it. Then we can subtract what's common to both and jump to the proximal cause; that god is a malevolent being. If you believe in the notion that god is behind the events that unfold in the world and that his existence does indeed have an influence then he is choosing to punish humans. That sounds like hell to me.

As far as I'm concerned, the only people who deserve to go to hell are child molesters

{ If you believe in the notion that god is behind the events that unfold in the world and that his existence does indeed have an influence then he is choosing to punish humans. }

You neglect the conclusion of the Adam and Eve story, which I guess makes sense having not read it. Free will is our ultimate punishment.

God's will was to keep us in the eternal garden of paradise where we had no awareness and everything was provided for us, we didn't have to know good from evil, we merely had to live. Like the animals. God is not in a good mood after being betrayed by Eve and Adam, so he curses them with free will and separates them from the animals.

{ Cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. And the man called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins, and clothed them.

And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever – therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. }

Man will no longer wander peacefully in the garden, eating the produce that grows easily and freely, but he must labor over the ground and the weeds in order to provide for himself until he dies, no more handouts from Mr Nice God. It's symbolic for putting our lives into our own hands, the concept of fate doesn't exist in Christianity. We lost our fate when we were expelled from Eden.

Go back to animals without free will. Are there mental and genetic disorders in other animal species? No, when an animal with a genetic or mental disorder is born, it dies. Its parents have no free will to go against nature (or God from the Christian POV). We have the free will to go against nature (God), who would rather us be a perfect healthy species with no sorrows or pain or anything but a nice life in paradise. But when diseased/disabled children were born we intervened with modern medicine and let them go on to produce offspring as well, spreading the conditions throughout our species. This is a consequence of our own free will, not God's evil apathy towards humans or whatever you think it is.

& I'm explaining this from a fundamental Christian point of view, not my own opinion or anything… when we do religious discussions I feel I need to point this out because people think I'm a Christian defending Christianity. Raging atheist here, just interested in Abrahamic religion.

{You neglect the conclusion of the Adam and Eve story, which I guess makes sense having not read it. Free will is our ultimate punishment.}

I'm pretty sure I get it. God said don't do it, but they did anyway so god jumped to Greece and took Pandora's box, turned it upside and told them to deal with shit themselves.

{It’s symbolic for putting our lives into our own hands, the concept of fate doesn’t exist in Christianity. We lost our fate when we were expelled from Eden.}

See, but you're not answering the question let me bold that for you.

'’ Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.’

That part implies that we are assuming that fate is not in our own hands and that we can get goodies from god. You're answer the previous part of the argument. Let me quote the whole thing. You're basically answering and defending the bold part.

'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?'

You're saying that god that for whatever reason (free will) can't do anything about the evils in the world. Then you have to admit the conclusion of that argument → not omnipotent. i.e what's the point of worshiping something that doesn't even have omnipotent powers? In other words, we should be able to have free will and have our safety bubble from acts of evil because of the whole "omnipotent" paradoxical powers that a supreme being should have.

Again that is assuming that if god is capable of being a proactive entity then a person would never be born with cerebral palsy because he would not allow that debilitating condition to be inflicted upon his creation.

{Go back to animals without free will. Are there mental and genetic disorders in other animal species? No, when an animal with a genetic or mental disorder is born, it dies. Its parents have no free will to go against nature (or God from the Christian POV). We have the free will to go against nature (God), who would rather us be a perfect healthy species with no sorrows or pain or anything but a nice life in paradise. But when diseased/disabled children were born we intervened with modern medicine and let them go on to produce offspring as well, spreading the conditions throughout our species. This is a consequence of our own free will, not God’s evil apathy towards humans or whatever you think it is. }

By the way this is factually incorrect. First of all your terms are so vague.
{No, when an animal with a genetic or mental disorder is born, it dies.}
Yeah. so does every other living thing. When a human is conceived with too many chromosome translocations it leads to miscarriage and dies immediately too.
On the other hand in some variations of diseases like Huntington's disease you can be perfectly healthy until your 40's when the disease onset accelerates and you die in your mid-ages.

Do you have any proof that similar late onset diseases don't occur in animals too? Probably not. Basically you're argument is "we only see diseases because we treat them and prolong lifespans"

There are numerous less threatening diseases that occur in animals and pass on. I'll give you a counterexample. Albinism in animals. For animals that are easy prey and constantly hide from predators and rely on camouflage, sticking out is pretty debilitating. Yet that genetic disorder persists.

{ You’re saying that god that for whatever reason (free will) can’t do anything about the evils in the world. }

Wont. Man inherited the Earth. I am defending this statement { Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. } only I'm saying it's not malevolent. This whole argument assumes God is some kind of savior figure who wants to make the world like Eden, but that chance has come and gone. The Bible doesn't claim such a thing either. This is a fantasy version of God that seems to come from not actually having read the Bible.

The point of worshiping is to be forgiven. God is merciful towards those who repent so he welcomes them into heaven when they "return to dust" after having labored their whole life, as the verse says.

Huntington's is an inheritable genetic disorder… it only continues to exist because people who have it continue to have children. If we tested for it and aborted babies or sterilized women who have the gene or conceive with a partner who has the gene, we would eradicate it. But that's modern medical progress for you~

{ Probably not. }

lmfao look up genetic disorders in animals. The only species it happens in are those we've domesticated. Cats, dogs, horses, lab rats. Nature does its job.

Albinism is rare in the wild, especially in adults, for that very reason. It's an uncommon mutation, where the debilitating kinds of disorders we're talking about are exceedingly rare. Lighter color adaptations are also becoming more common as shady, dense forests are mowed down for pavement and sunny fields, this is well documented in reptiles especially. There's a reason for your scales to change color, there's no reason to be an invalid. This is an ecological answer for what you're proposing, I have no idea what Huntington's or albinism has to do with free will or awareness or the point you're trying to make tbh.

{lmfao look up genetic disorders in animals.}

lmfao learn genetics. Variants are classified as common or rare based on the least common frequency in a population.

{It’s an uncommon mutation, where the debilitating kinds of disorders we’re talking about are exceedingly rare.}

Ignoring that you don't even have your terminology straight, you think that rare vs uncommon disease even makes a difference in this argument?

{I have no idea what Huntington’s or albinism has to do with free will or awareness or the point you’re trying to make tbh.}

Here's my point: "No, when an animal with a genetic or mental disorder is born, it dies."

This statement is so vague it's meaningless. Sick animals that are born die, healthy animals die. Sick humans die. Healthy humans die. Like what's your point. Are we all supposed to pretend that inherited diseases either kill you at birth or you live until old age?

You're saying that genetic diseases don't exist in nature because sick animals die immediately after birth unlike in humans because we prolong the life of sick humans long enough to spread the traits.

{But when diseased/disabled children were born we intervened with modern medicine and let them go on to produce offspring as well, spreading the conditions throughout our species. }

That's bullshit and let me tell you why. Some genetic diseases don't manifest themselves until much later in life like Huntington's disease for example which can show signs at ages above 30, well enough after humans are capable of having progeny. Now if you can imagine a wild squirrel born with a disease of this nature, it will have likely had children before the disease manifests itself. Albinism is a genetic disorder that does exist regardless of how rare it is (FYI its possible to identify genetically between albinism and adaption to environment), and does propagate in wild animals despite your "fail safe" plan that "there are no genetic disorders in animals". These two types of diseases can and do propagate through generations therefore invalidating your claim below:

{Are there mental and genetic disorders in other animal species? No, }

Therefore to sum shit up, genetic diseases such as albinism and Huntington's propagate regardless of free will therefore god is sitting back watching this terrible affliction spread and either A: he can't do anything about it because of a deal he made with adam and eve and is not all powerful, or B) doesn't want to do anything and is malevolent. Pick your choice.

I think it really depends on what branch of Christianity you subscribe to.

I'm fairly certain that Catholics believe in purgatory (this is just from hearsay, I'm not Catholic myself) and hell is more of a place that is away from God. Not necessarily demons with pitchforks and fire, that's just a popular depiction.

I do agree that it is kind of stupid that the Bible basically states in the beginning that all of humanity will be punished because Adam fucked up, though even that can be up for interpretation. I personally don't practice Christianity anymore, though I grew up with it.

{ That’s bullshit and let me tell you why. Some genetic diseases don’t manifest themselves until much later in life like Huntington’s disease for example which can show signs at ages above 30 }

Huntington's is a HUMAN disease, animals can't develop it or anything like it naturally anyway! Medical lab rats are genetically modified for us to experiment on. That's the point. A simple color mutation which is easily bred into animals of various species by hobbyists is not comparable to a human genetic disorder which has been allowed to permeate through the generations. Still not seeing what this has to do with free will.

{ Are we all supposed to pretend that inherited diseases either kill you at birth or you live until old age? }

In nature it does, there are no time-lapse genetic diseases that occur in wild animals. For humans it does not. To a fundamentalist Christian this is because free will allowed us to breed of our own accord for thousands of years which allowed these mutations to develop and adapt to us, while inept wild animals are swiftly preyed upon. I honestly don't understand why you're struggling so hard with this separation.

{ doesn’t want to do anything and is malevolent. }

Not doing something isn't malevolent lmfao. Are you a sheep that needs to be herded through life because bad things may happen?? Then Christianity is not for you, you are looking for a universalist religion or you're not looking for a religion at all and are playing petty technicalities over an ancient text that you've never read anyway.

Pick one.

I'm afraid I don't understand how anyone can view free will as a curse. Do you mind explaining that one to me, lisalombs?

I've always found the arguments for annihilationism, the view that the lake of fire will destroy damned souls instead of torture them, more convincing than the traditional (and largely scripturally inaccurate) view of hell.

I'm on a road trip to bufu atm so idk if this will even post by the time I'm done typing but here goes.

Again, a fundamental Christian answer. Without free will we would still be living in Eden. No working, no buying and selling, no illness or disease, etc. Paradise where we would only have to live and all of our needs would be taken care of. The curse of free will means we have to support ourselves, which may seem just dandy in 2016 but paradise for free will must have sounded like a pretty decent trade thousands of years ago.

Jews focus on life over death, so there is little dogma about the afterlife. We call it Olam Ha-Ba, The World to Come. Jews also believe that even non-Jews have a place in The World to Come, as long as they follow the 7 Noachide Laws:

Do not deny God.
Do not blaspheme God.
Do not murder.
Do not engage in illicit sexual relations.
Do not steal.
Do not eat of a live animal.
Establish courts/legal system to ensure obedience to the law.

Jews believe that these are the laws given to ALL humanity to abide by.

Hell In Judaism is best looked at as Purgatory from the Christian perspective, and the severest souls are obliterated into nothingness. Some describe it as distance from God, where the wicked are the most distant. But again, emphasis among Jews isn't the afterlife but current life. Many don't concern themselves with what the Afterlife is like, and instead focus on current life.

TO just clarify certain things.