Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

I saw this on twitter a while ago https://twitter.com/totalbiscuit/status/888706215605415937?lang=en and then recently on reddit saw a comment say "It's a horribly offensive slur for a person who identifies as transgender."

..why do people think this? Its not even a term aimed at trans people, its aimed as androgynous/feminine and crossdressing men.

It's pretty easy to draw parallels between the two:
(using MtF trans here)
-Both are born male
-Both tend to wear effeminate clothing
-Both tend to act more feminine
-Both identify as a female publicly

That's a generalization of course, though people get jumpy at generalizations, especially when it comes to gender politics. It may also be the implication that it is gay for a man to like a trap and by extension gay for a male to like a MtF trans person.

Liking traps is still gay btw

..why do people think this? Its not even a term aimed at trans people, its aimed as androgynous/feminine and crossdressing men.

That's the thing, at times it is. A lot of the time it's aimed at crossdressing people (which can be offensive even then at times, because of the very concept and origin of trap, and some crossdressing subcultures) but I've seen it used to refer to trans people several times.

Will people stop complaining about it if I say no for an answer?

>"Both identify as a female publicly"

Lol no.

A trans identifies as female despite the content of their pants. A trap on the other hand matches those other points but still identifies as male, they just happen to really love femine stuff; this is also prominent in trap hentai (we both know that's where this confusion comes from), the traps frequently make clear that "I'm actually a boy".

I assume that's what makes it "transphobic", you're referring to someone who wishes to be accepted as the other gender with a term mainly used for feminine men in hentai by horny teens who just want to fuck cute boipussi and don't care about trans acceptance.

Liking traps will forever remain gay

Depends on the context, if it's used to describe a fictional character, then no.

But if it is used towards an actual person, I could see an arguement that it done to belittle a trans person

I find that the term trap is almost always used with a positive connotation when used unironically, so even if it was used to refer to a trans person, I don't think they should necessarily be offended by it. The word someone uses is less important, In my opinion, than the intent behind it and the greater context surrounding it.

When a straight man says "traps aren't gay" in the context of transsexuality, what they are essentially saying is that, though they are straight, they are not bothered by a potential partner having (or having had) a penis. In that context, I would say this person is far more socially liberal and accepting than many are, so saying they are a bigot for their word choice doesn't jive with me. You have to analyze what someone is saying, rather than just how they say it.

What a lot of people fail to understand is that what traps are people who dress as a woman, but know that they are male.

I read a short manga called "Kirameki!! Otokonoko Juku – How to Be Otokonoko" by WADAPEN. and it basically is an instructional book about how to cross-dress, while including a short manga story. From it the author puts something I think sums it up best.

"You may get confused about whether you're male or female. Please don't forget the reality that you are male. Cross-dressing is supposed to be a sophisticated hobby for males."

Basically, traps are males who cross-dress for a specific reason (either for fun or some ulterior motive) while trans are people who genuinely believe they are a woman (which is why some go through hormone therapy). Thus they are a "trap" because they're being intentionally deceitful about whether or not they are male while trans people believe they are female so they technically are not lying (whether or not they are is something I won't get into).

@Wisehowl
>Both identify as a female publicly
Thats what separates traps from trans. Traps don't specificly do so. Some might maybe, but its more about being androgynous and/or cross dressing.
>That’s a generalization of course
Yea, exactly, its more transphobic to say any androgynous man is trans.

@Rivers
But it isn't specific to trans people. Like saying the word stupid is transphobic because some people call trans people stupid.

Trap specifically implies they are trying to trick people.

I find that the term trap is almost always used with a positive connotation when used unironically, so even if it was used to refer to a trans person, I don’t think they should necessarily be offended by it

I have had limited exposure to the word, but virtually all "postive" uses I've seen have been in a pornographic or fetishistic context. (If I'm not mistaken, the concept originated as a fetish, whereas its non-fetish counterpart would just be "drag queen" or crossdresser.) If the word is indeed sometimes used with trans people, I can see how having an integral part of your identity be associated with a fetish would invite, rather than preclude, offense.

@Particle Mare

Cosplay.
Cosplay is where the term trap is most popular. Many cosplayers who cosplay of the opposite sex self-identify as a trap. Trap is synonymous with androgynous. Being a successful trap is a huge deal to us. Being able to trick people into thinking you are the opposite sex means you pulled off the cosplay extremely well.

Also, if people use the word in some sort of insulting way, that doesn't mean the word itself is bad. Like saying the word "shy" is offensive because of how often people mislabel people as shy and use it in an insulting way towards quiet people.

I don't remember ever seeing the word "trap" being used to classify transgender people.

RandomMan already explained this, but the difference between traps and transgender people is transgender people are actually unhappy with the gender they have. Traps are not, they understand they are male, they just like feminine stuff. It's like saying a gay crossdresser and a transgender are the same thing.

Thanks for your valuable contribution.

The tl;dr of my approach is it's transphobic if used for a trans person. It's hard for a word to be transphobic if it doesn't refer to them.

The problem is, in the current worldwide climate, crossdressers (including cosplayers) are lumped in with trans people as essentially the same thing. Using the term trap – which obviously has negative connotations – on a large scale will inevitably lead to it being used for trans people. Whether that makes it a moral responsibility to avoid it, is weirdly enough a whole linguistic and moral debate, so to each their own I guess.

As noted, it's used in fetishistic and cosplay scenarios. Trans people do not want to be associated with that. In addition, it's also used not even in necessarily fetishistic or pornographic scenarios to simply refer to crossdressers and such, when they successfully "trick" others. Not a fan of this idea, and the word itself, because it makes them out to be deceivers, when that's not necessarily true.

I don’t remember ever seeing the word “trap” being used to classify transgender people.

Again, I have. Just because some people haven't seen it used in certain ways doesn't mean it hasn't. I've seen "nigger" used ironically/meme-y far far more than I have seen it used seriously as a slur, but that doesn't make its usage as a slur not concerning.

In the cosplay scene, crossplay would be closer to crossdressing than actual transgenders. One wishes to deceive others into thinking they're the opposite gender when in costume, the other wishes to be accepted as it at all times (necessarily even when they can't pull the looks off yet).

The confusion is understandable, but at the same time so is finding it offensive. I guess to an outsider it wouldn't appear like a big deal, but when you're trans people are using incorrect terms for the entire struggle surrounding your gender issues.

Like using "faggot" or "gay" as a slur for flamboyant or sissy behavior (or just nerds on the internet). We see it as nothing special, but to a homosexual it could possibly be seen as people not taking your sexuality issues serious.

Take note: It's fine to use "gay" when they like traps, since liking traps is forever gay.

>One wishes to deceive others into thinking they’re the opposite gender when in costume, the other wishes to be accepted as it at all times (necessarily even when they can’t pull the looks off yet).

Thats basically exactly the difference between being a trap and trans.

Its just so weird to me that people INSIDE the community confuse those two terms as though traps are trans.

>using incorrect terms

Thats the point, the term isn't bad or a slur, but using it incorrectly is bad. The people I'm talking about are acting like calling someone a "trap" is literally the same as calling them a "faggot". Trap is a word people self identify as. Its not an inherent slur.

"Trap" doesn't describe transpeople, but they can sometimes feel uncomfortable with its use due to its connotations of "deceit".

"You deceived me" is a fundamental reason why violence has been committed against transpeople in the past, so this is completely understandable.

However, it's important to remember that the anime community of today uses the word "trap" in affectionate terms, and such characters are highly popular. Furthermore, "trap" characters help to normalise gender fluidity and ambiguity, and some transpeople and some non-binary people take this as a positive move. Remember, the trans community is not homogenous and they don't all feel the same way about everything! Just look at our trans members here on KYM for evidence of this.

I personally don't use the word in front of my trans friends IRL, because I know it will upset some of them, but nonetheless, I recognise the view that the word is not used in a hurtful way these days and is generally not connected to trans-ness.

Thats the point, the term isn’t bad or a slur, but using it incorrectly is bad. The people I’m talking about are acting like calling someone a “trap” is literally the same as calling them a “faggot”. Trap is a word people self identify as. Its not an inherent slur.

Not inherently a slur when used the context of crossplay, you're correct there.

But this is the internet. Crossplay is not an extremely dominant group. But what is dominant here? Porn. And that brings us back to what was said earlier in the thread on fetish stuff.

We both know that when people refer to trans as traps, they are thinking about a group of fictional characters they fantasize about and want to bone anally; not people who can do kickass crossplay. That people inside the crossplay community then confuse the terms is seen as insignificant compared to the big community of horny internet teens.

Not a slur even then, sure, but we can assume you rather not get associated with a group who are better at increasing tissue sales than trans acceptance. Does that make it offensive? Meh, maybe not, up to interpretation, but methinks it can certainly appear demaining when you're trans.

Edit: Ballin' point of view from Egla by pointing out how the popularity of traps within the horny weeb community actually can somewhat normalize gender fluidity. Doesn't remove the negatives, but interesting approach.

I gotta say no, because the word "trap" has far more relevance to transvestites than it does to transgenders. Now, if RuPaul brought up the word being offensive, then there might be a point, but until then, no.

>“Trap” doesn’t describe transpeople, but they can sometimes feel uncomfortable with its use due to its connotations of “deceit”.

So trans people are literally going out of their way to find something to be offended about. Amazing.

One person expresses a thought and you condemn a people group. Amazing.

>But what is dominant here? Porn. And that brings us back to what was said earlier in the thread on fetish stuff.

I’ve just never understood the problem there. I’m part of two communities that have a very large stereotype of “Its just a fetish!” furry and lolita. I just don’t see the significance.

Furry and lolita fandoms are now equivalent to basic identity?

>we can assume you rather not get associated with a group who are better at increasing tissue sales than trans acceptance.

why does that matter?

Get off the internet. If you don't see the problem with being associated with porn, you've spent too much time jacking it.

Why are trans people treated like snowflakes? “Don’t say this around them! They might feel bad if you do!” Can you think of any other group that has so many rules and regulations on what can and can’t be said?

Generally not. It being used in such a way isn't impossible but the term itself is fine, in my opinion.

I'm also siding with Elgamore here in saying that "trap" generally has neutral or positive connotations nowadays in most circles.

I'm pretty sure he's calling you a nazi because HURR DURR HITLUR HATED DA TRANNIES.

Also, if people use the word in some sort of insulting way, that doesn’t mean the word itself is bad.

Yes. It does. This is how all words, in the history of language, derive meaning: their use.

But even so, "trap" in reference a person was intended to be derogatory from the very beginning, a way to warn others that they might not be getting what they wanted. They are falling into a trap. There is nothing positive about this.

Your opinion on whether a group should be insulted by a word has no bearing. It never has. Instead of making a thread with no direction or purpose, you can just not use the word next time.

I mean, otherkin is a thing I guess.

Identifying as a girl is now the same as identifying as Mr. Bark Bark Rainbowsparkles the Wolftree.

How is warning someone that someone else is the opposite gender of what they look like a bad thing?

It's called a trap because you don't get that warning.

When you're looking to get laid, and you discover a third leg between the legs of your bone partner, it's not a pleasant suprise to the average person.

Context. The context the word is used in makes a huge difference. I don't feel that the word "trap" (or in this case more the term) in and of itself in a vacuum is offensive, but in the right context it can be.

Obviously a word like trap already has a "normal" irl definition, that, while the internet term is based off of, does mean something else. This already shows context is important. From this point onwards, I'm just going to refer to the internet term.

Calling a male feminine/androgynous character that dresses like a girl in anime/manga/other media that self identifies as male a trap I think is fine. They are fictional idividuals that are designed to fit this "made up" term. While it's origins are fetish based, I know a few of them have seeped into stuff whoose primary purpose is not this. Still, I consider traps to be a made up term to describe made up people, and even if the media they are in doesn't play up the fetish aspect, its still an overtone.

The closest I would consider anyone in real life to a trap would be people who are nearly always cross-dressing (of course females in traditionally male clothing isn't genreally seen as cross dressing, but most male looking characters who were really female in anime/manga/other media I also don't see being called traps, at most, occasionally "reverse trap". This is starting to get into another topic though). Even then, cross dressing is an already existing term that exist explicitly to describe this exact thing and, while is certainly has connotations around it many find negative, the same could be said of any term for any group. Cross dressing would at least be an accurate term and does not have the connotations as fictional manga/anime fetish bait like trap does.

As for context and how it can be considered offensive depending on it, how about something else as an example. Jewish is a term that is used to describe followers of Judaism, and belifs or objects relating to the religion. Additionally, unlike many other religions there is also racial component. Still, in this context, using it has no problem. However, most people online know of "Happy Merchamt" and other anti-Semitic jokes that abound. There are people who use the term "Jewish" or simmilar terms to describe anything that fits these anti-Semitic stereotypes. Someone describing a thing as "Jewish" it could be that it does actually have something to do with Judaism. However, it's possible the person holds bigoted stereotypes about Jews and considers said thing to fit those same steryotypes, using it as a derogatory term.

Using trap to refer to trans people is using a "made up" term to describe fictional characters of one definition in a largly sexual context, and ascribing it to real people who do not meet this definition. I can guarantee trans people ( or every real person for that matter) have more complicated lives that just being print on paper for people to get off to.

Sure, some people in certain communities do have positive opinions on traps, and I have no doubts that at least one trans individual at some point in time didn't mind having the term trap ascribed to them, in the same way some black people personally don't mind if anybody wants to use the n-word. I would never say that this is anything close to a large number of people, but people are individuals. By far, the vast majority of people do not like being referred to by a term that has inaccurate and generally negative connotations.

Not to be rude, but why the fuck has nobody actually asked "traps" or trans what they think of this?

I do consider myself trans and do plan on in the long run working towards transitioning once my finances are sorted out, for now I'm just a trap, personally I don't think it's a slur because when you get down to it you're implying that I pass. I like being told that I look like a woman.

I'm more annoyed that people constantly get offended on my behalf than anything. "Trap is such a offensive term, I'm offended on people that are trans' behalf".
"But I don't mind the term"
"Shhh shhh shhhhh let me be offended for you"

Not to be rude, but why the fuck has nobody actually asked “traps” or trans what they think of this?

I mean, I am trans. Not exactly asked but I did weigh in.

@LurkerLurking
I plan on becoming a trap once my cosplay is done. I'm not trans.

> I don’t think it’s a slur because when you get down to it you’re implying that I pass. I like being told that I look like a woman.

Thats sorta how I saw it. I guess the offensive part is implying that you are trying to trick people in a harmful way. I've just never really seen the word used in a strongly negative way.

I don't think it is one and I'm sort of in agreement with RandomMan. Traps try to pass themselves off as female when in reality they know they're male. So in a sense they are the literal definition of the word trap as they are trying to decieve people. The reason may depend, but in they end they see themselves as male, but want to be seen as female. If they were trans, they'd see themselves as female too.
…
On that note I see them as cute. (Sorry but I had to say something like that.)

>traps are gay