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{ it makes me wonder if this live-and-let-live movement is starting to take it’s toll on society. }

Whiiiiich is the justification behind social conservatism, but now we're far enough down that "supposed slippery slope" for your moral line to have been crossed. Welcome to the club, I will be your guide. You now have a choice between actively voting for the moral boundaries you want to see implemented when bills addressing those issues come up at all levels of government (bans/regulations on hormone-blockers for minors, for example) and electing the politicians that support those boundaries, or you can passively accept the general direction society is heading and keep mostly to yourself and your family/friends while maintaining a socially acceptable public standard.

You should drink water after you're done drinking to prevent a hangover. But I'm digressing.

{Whiiiiich is the justification behind social conservatism, but now we’re far enough down that “supposed slippery slope” for your moral line to have been crossed.}
Not quite. This one particular issue is far from the final straw that got me concerned about the country's direction. I've been debating people on all manner of social issues online and in person for over a decade. This isn't new.

I'd just like to say I've always been irked by these kinds of comments. Not this one in particular, this one's on the lesser side of the spectrum, just the idea behind it.

This idea that really pervades in all SJ conversations, when people point to the fact that there are still a lot of discriminatory assholes, one of the first things I see is "Yeah but that's true for SJWs! Some of them would get angry over anything!". Yes, it's true! Won't even begin to deny that. There are assholes on both sides of the coin (Although I have to say, and I'm just assuming here so mega apologies if I'm wrong, I suspect that you argue more anti-SJ rather than pro. If so, wouldn't it go without saying that you see more SJW assholes? Since you wouldn't see the anit-SJW assholes since you aren't really fighting against them, so to speak)

Anyway, I digress, yes it's true, there are assholes on both sides, but here's the main point you need to consider. A lot of these LGBT activists who are getting defensive are in fact trans themselves. When people insult or speak down on Trans issues, you are talking down on a part of their lives, something that affects them directly and personally. While I do not condone the ones who get angry over nothing, or the ones who may take things a step too far (Like I know someone who prefers to be referred to as "Xe", so I know how it feels when you're asked to use pronouns that you aren't really comfortable with, for lack of a better term), I totally can understand why people would get super defensive. Hell, if someone started talking to me about how they didn't agree with gay rights, I'd probably get a little pissed off too.

Also decided to move this to serious debate, to make sure everything stays relevant.

Nobody in this thread said trans people are the world's only victims. I'm really sorry trans people bringing up legitimate issues makes you feel that way.

"Also, disagreeing with anyone on the definition on transgender is transphobic."
If I said homosexuality was a mental disorder or that engaging in a homosexual relationship was "self destructive" I would be considered a homophobe, would I not?

"Stop acting like being transgender makes you special, it doesn’t. Stop asking for special treatment."
Once again, nobody in this thread is acting like being trans makes you special. In what universe is asking to be referred to by your preferred gender "special treatment"? Has it maybe occurred to you that people are very vocal about trans rights because trans people are victims of real discrimination? The rates of physical/sexual/verbal abuse, suicide, and murder of trans people are ridiculously high compared to other minorities, and that's not even mentioning the people whose standard of living has been greatly compromised because of their gender identity. It's astounding that you consider it "special treatment" to want to be treated like an actual human being. But you can pretend trans people just make the statistics up for the sake of your argument if it helps you sleep better at night.

Ms. Fortune and Sam: I know how infuriating it can be to see the negative backlash against trans people on the internet, but you two should never give up. Just remember that trans rights, or any social justice for that matter, did not get to the point it's at today by everyone staying quiet when they ran into dissenters. At least be comforted in knowing that I am the proud sibling of a transperson, and you will always at least have people like me on your side.

OP ’s entire post was just whining about how people say bad stuff about transgender people, like they are some how more important than any other group of people who gets insulted.

This is the logic I hate the most, not just when dealing with Transsexuals but in general. This "You have no right to complain if other people have it bad too" mentality. Are we not allowed to be upset at people insulting a group of people now? Is the idea of being treated like a person suddenly "acting like they are more important"?

I wouldn’t say someone is homophobic for saying that. I’d just ask them to go further. It could be homophobic, or it couldn’t be. Its something that can be discussed. What is and should be considered a mental disorder can sometimes be a debatable topic.
What i’ve been called transphobic for is simply disagreeing with how open some people try to make the term transgender. I believe, there should be conditions and requirements to be considered transgender, just like there are to be considered straight, gay, or anything else. But other think that, as long as you say you are transgender, then you are transgender. I think that is simply the wrong direction.

While I agree, there is a part of the Trans-Rights movement that will call you Trans-phobic for disagreeing with a single thing they've said, they are not all of them, nor does it mean Transsexuals lose the right to fight for equality.

I dislike that certain groups act like they are persecuted the most, when they aren’t. It feels like the transgender community demands complete respect, even though no other group has it.
Every group of people are persecuted.

I just dislike the idea the transgender community tries to play up “If only i wasn’t trans, i would never be insulted or treated differently!”. That simply is not true.

Again, this "Other people have it bad or worst than you, so you have no right to complain" is complete bullshit. People thinking Trans' Rights are important is not the same has them thinking their group is superior, or have it the worst.

Also, not every group of people are persecuted, at least not everywhere. You'd have to stretch the imagination really far to say White people are persecuted in America, on Tumblr yes, but not the West in general. You'd also have to be insane to think straight people are persecuted anywhere

Glad to know that asking not to be called freaks is considered whining now.

Also, there is a condition to be described as Transgender. That condition is "Do you identify with a gender other than that of what you were born?". If yes, you are transgender. If someone considers themselves to be trans, they are trans. I don't think many people would go around saying they are trans when they aren't, and with those that are, that can also be said for Gay and Bi people as well.

And I don't think they act like they think they're the most discriminated people in the world at all. I hate this idea that "Well why don't you take other minorities into account". A trans activist is only really going to fight for Trans issues aren't they, doesn't mean they don't care or are negating the struggles of other minorities, they just aren't actively fighting that cause. A feminist can still care about Gay rights, even if that isn't the main thing they fight for.

Oh, and when it comes to minority groups, Trans people are FAR from the group with the best treatment. I'd say that when it comes to activism, they're the cause represented least. They have more of a reason than anyone to get frustrated.

Also about that "If only i wasn’t trans, i would never be insulted or treated differently!” thing. Yeah, sure, it wouldn't go completely, but you can't stand here and argue that there wouldn't be a SIGNIFICANT difference. THAT simply is not true.

But complaining about general rudeness that you receive for who you are is what annoys me.

And general rudeness towards an entire group for what they are is fine because…..?

Awful double standards you're carrying, bro.

I just want to hear less “people are mean to me and bully me” and more about how a group is specifically mistreated.

Said group is the trans community. And how an individual who is part of that group is treated can be an accurate example of how that group is treated. You are assuming that because person A gets called names, person B to Z don't have that happening to them.

If receiving mistreatment in the form of wrong gender calling or other insults wasn't such a dominant issue which the trans community is facing, people wouldn't bring it up all the time.

You seem to as well notice the complaint a lot. So ask yourself: Why is this the case? Probably not because literally all those people are overreaction. It takes little effort to assume the group in general is suffering from it. If the minority was suffering from it, the complaint wouldn't present itself in each argument again.

So people treating you like a second-class citizen or not human at all isn't "Specific" enough for you to consider a problem? People being disowned from their family, jeered at by people walking past them, being mistreated to the point of being one of the highest suicide groups is just "general rudeness that everyone receives" and are just "whining and moaning" when they ask for the hatred they face daily for being Transsexual to stop?

So er, no using personal experience to back up your claims? I will reiterate what has been said before, there is nowhere in that OP where it is said that their pains are worse than everyone else's. I can't even get that from the tone, that sentiment is not in the OP at all, so I don't even understand that point.

But from what I can tell, your main issue is essentially the OP is about "I" and not "we", choosing to focus on personal pains rather than that of the Trans community in general. Now if I was in Fortune's position, making a thread on gay rights, I would totally use my experience in discussing the topic in my OP. Why? Because I can give firsthand accounts of problems that I've experienced, an how they link to the wider community. From what I'm reading, I'm not seeing "This is my pain and mine alone oh woe is me", I'm seeing Fortune describe how the issue has affected them, to help kickstart discussion on the treatment of Trans people as a whole.

From what I'm reading, the insults that Fortune is describing DO reflect key issues in the treatment of transgender people as a whole. These insults do not exclusive to one person, these are the same types of insults many trans people on the internet receive, this is just one personal example to help illustrate the point.

Like I don't even understand this "You should complain about specific mistreatments due to who you are." That is exactly what is happening here. Fortune tried to show some ways in which there are genuine problems in Trans rights that isn't just SJW bullshit, they was ignored and insulted, and here we are discussing the issue. That is someone discussing how there are still issues of mistreatment in regards to Trans people.

Poochyena

you're coming off as incredibly disrespectful. You're inability to grasp general gripes against bigotry as complaining and moaning is just sad,

Also, there is a condition to be described as Transgender. That condition is “Do you identify with a gender other than that of what you were born?”. If yes, you are transgender.

I'm rather skeptical of this claim. Lots of people can sometimes feel on occasion that their sex is not the right one, but vanishingly few go on to feel those symptoms constantly and to the degree that they would need to do something about them. I'm of the opinion that only those who can be medically diagnosed with the condition should be given treatment and so on rather then just handing out hormone therapy and pronouns to everyone who's ever felt a bit confused or unsure about their identity.

Well again, the same goes for Gay and bi people too, some people think they are gay/bi, then they start to realize that isn't the case. I'd argue these people who only occasionally have these feelings would never reach the point of going all the way to getting hormone therapy. I didn't come out as gay until I was 100% sure of my feelings, and I'm sure that is the same for many trans people too.

I'd say that this is a different case, given that we're talking about a mental illness (not a pathology, before you snap at me) that you can be diagnosed with and treated for.

I mean, in the US you can't legally get hormone treatments or surgery for a sex change until you go through a ton of psych evaluations and are legally deemed a transperson so… Yeah.

Some people have this weird delusion that you can just walk into a doctor's office and request hormone treatments, but you really have to jump through a lot of hoops first to get to that point. I don't know where people got the idea that hormone treatments are just "handed out" but for the most part by the time any transperson gets to the point of treatment they aren't exactly "confused" or "unsure" anymore

Wow, this thread turned out better than expected, at least from my POV. I think that I'm willing to recant my earlier statement about the KYM community.

Actually, I'll meet it halfway: I agree with whoever said the forum commentators are far removed from the article commentators. The comments on articles are still…bad, but I now agree that they are not fully representative of this site's community. Apologies to any non-trolls I may have irked.

(Not taking back what I said about Reddit though.)

As for the KYM articles themselves, I believe that they are far more neutral – or sometimes even biased in the opposite direction – compared to those who comment on them. After seeing that an article on Lewis' Law was submitted yesterday, I'm beginning to wonder if the article writers like trolling the commentariat…hmm…

To clear up any confusion, when I said the site was liberal I was referring to Mr Stalker's claim on the first page. Though I now know that he was trolling…

My final point might have already been said, but I don't think brushing it up to 'a matter of opinion' works as a defence when the issue concerns the rights and recognition of a group of people. Whomever uses this defence belittles the issue, implicitly comparing it to liking a certain band or preferring a specific colour of zinnias for a flower garden. This is clearly not the case.

(Warning! This will probably sound manipulative and honestly, it might be. But keep in mind, this comes from the mind of someone with high-functioning autism, which means a lot of my understanding of social mechanics is on a conscious, rather than subconscious, level. This isn't a foolproof guide to brainwashing the masses; it's a list of general guidelines (which are probably faulty) from someone who learns about interacting with people successfully in the same way they learn how to play chess successfully. I'm not advocating lying or manipulating people to get what you want. This is (supposed) to be a presentation on what I've learned about how you should choose to present yourself and your ideas so that your audience is more receptive.)

I actually deal with a similar (but less severe) issue with gay rights stuff. Thankfully, it's less of a touchy subject, but I've learned the hard way that I'm one poorly worded comment from a large pile of downvotes. Here's a list of 10 things I've learned:

1) The most important thing is to play devil's advocate at all times. If you don't seem impartial to the general community, then you will polarize opinions against you, and that almost never works out in your favor. Additionally, if you really aren't being impartial, then what metric are you using to judge your arguments as being correct? In other words, if you can't sincerely admit the possibility that you are wrong, then how do you know your argument is logical in the first place?

2) You need to be patient. There will be times when you will feel like people are being hypocritical, or irrational, but harping on the issue will often make it worse. And I can guarantee you will receive undeserved down votes and logical fallacies thrown at you. If things like that make you feel sad or angry, then it's probably best you back out. Remember, there are people just waiting for you to "slip up" and reacting in such ways is like providing a big, blinking red button on a giant robot to the video game protagonist fighting it in a boss battle. And take people seriously, whether that means repeating the same counter-argument to same popular misinformed stance for the 100th time to someone new, or if it means replying to a joke by someone you get along with in an appropriate manner, instead of being rude or just ignoring them. Remember, your fellow users are people.

3) Learn when to hold your ground, and when to back out. This is one of the most subtle lessons, but one of the most important, since it really has an impact on how people see you, and by extension, your ideas. If you don't acknowledge criticism, then people are less likely to take you seriously and you miss out on opportunities to "gain ground". On the other hand, if you always have to have the last word, then people may think you are the kind of person who will never admit they are wrong. And don't automatically delete something you posted previously, just because it doesn't seem particularly popular; doing so without discretion tends to give off the impression that you are being manipulative and care more about how popular your ideas are more than how much confidence you have in them being logical.

4) Don't treat the community as a means to an end. Remember, most people are here to discuss memes and such, so don't force the issue where it isn't relevant. If someone brings it up first, then feel free to go ahead (though tread lightly.) If the item of discussion is directly relevant, then go ahead with more confidence. If you can tie in the item of discussion to something you want to bring up, and do so skillfully, then feel free to take the risk, but only occasionally. And don't just hang around for your topic of interest. Engage with the more popular parts of the website. Being seen as a "real" member of the community carries a lot of weight with it.

5) Learn to accept defeat. Nobody's perfect, including yourself, the people with whom you argue, nor the people just watching you go at it with your detractors. Logic doesn't always win the day, and trying to get things back on that track may end up doing more harm than good in some cases. If this happens, do not overreact and don't try to change other people; instead, just end your participation and wait for another chance to say what you want in more favorable circumstances. Not to mention it's unlikely that everything you post ever will be logical, but I covered that already.

6) Stretch yourself to engage with others in different ways, and learn when each is most effective. In a lot of ways, socialization is a lot like battling in RPGs, where certain strategies work best in certain situations. Being blunt works well in some cases, where subtlety is key in others. Humor can be a great help in one situation, and hurt you the next, in which case being somber would have been a better option. The list goes on and on, with things like brevity vs. precise articulation, confidence vs. a self-effacing attitude, being open about your opinions, experiences, or ideas, vs. choosing not to divulge them, etc. Also, keep in mind which of these are used most often by those who you have interacted with frequently, both by friends and not-so-friends, so you know how best to work with them or avoid being messed with.

7) Be consistent in your message. Generally speaking, nobody trusts people who are hypocrites or double-talkers. Think about how you feel on issues and stay consistent with them as long as you are convinced they are logical. This change in arguments should not happen often, because if it does, then that indicates you are easily swayed (and thus your judgements cannot be trusted) or are lying about being swayed (in which case you are manipulative.) Like I said before, be open to other arguments but make sure you have a firm belief in it in the first place before arguing it out in the open.

8) Always double-check and spell check. Not only will you find simple grammatical errors or spelling mistakes, you may find that what you read is different than what you thought you wrote. Also, people are less likely to take you seriously if you \/\/r173 |1k3 7|-|15.

9) Be knowledgeable in your subject. Use the Google news search on your topic and keep up with the events regarding it; make sure to save anything you feel would be important or useful in the future. If you are extra proactive, read about any sources and/or studies mentioned in said news stories and/or in the sources of Wikipedia pages related to your study.

10) Be knowledgeable in general. You can be the expert in your idea, but if people think you are sheltered, then you will have to work to get them to listen to you in the first place, generally speaking. Chiming in when you know something will signify to people that you are learned and have common sense. Additionally, learning things may help in unexpected ways. For example, logical fallacies are one of the few things that nearly everyone on the internet gives some respect to, as an argument or a point of contention. Using textile, and providing sources not only looks good, but it makes people more likely to read what you write. Knowing when to use semicolons and when to use "who" or "whom" isn't just fancy, it's useful.

Hope any of this helps!

Okay my earlier joke was too far I'll say that now. It was wrong and I should not have posted it in serious debate.

As for the thread itself I'll just throw in my two cents. I personally feel OP should have made it more clear if this is about being transgender or being transexual or both because there is a world of difference between the biological and the psychological. Personally even after having multiple people thoroughly explain it to me and googling the definition multiple times in different dictionaries I still have no idea what a gender is. It feels like the word has been stretched really far and I am left confused when a gender such as transgender is mentioned. Not saying it isn't important but it's hard for me personally to understand it in the first place. As for being/becoming transexual, their choice, the surgery isn't perfect, but for some people that's better than the alternative of being in the body they are in. It's just a biological tool, if people feel more comfortable with having a different tool at their disposal even if it may have some kinks to it, that works too and is their decision.

Overall I view this in a pragmatic fashion. Can't expect people to have a new language formed for gender pronouns like 'xe' it's unrealistic and would only work in books and a select few individuals. Asking someone to call you the opposite gender pronoun is confusing at first but not asking much. If they call you the wrong gender pronoun on purpose knowing full well the individual identifies as the opposite gender, make no mistake this is wrong and socially unacceptable.

The biological build of someone is just a tool, a means to an end for survival and overall living in the limited time you have within the body. Don't infatuate with it, it does what you need it to and you build it as necessary to accommodate you with the help of breakthroughs in medicine and science. Some people live better with a different toolset than what they have, not a big deal. Seem weird? Look weird? Well that falls under your opinionated perspective of what is beauty and to each person their own perspective that they are expected, to respectfully have alongside the perspectives of others.

I think the issue is that those who oppose SJWs have this mentality that anything the SJWs support should be opposed, and vice versa. You could say it's the association fallacy in effect. I've seen it before on KYM, and it annoys me. lt's a stupid mentality that really shouldn't be held. For example, people ignoring or worsening trans issues just because SJWs support them. Seriously, don't fucking do that. Sure, the SJWs are horribly, horribly misguided and try to resolve these issues by creating more issues out of nonissues, but just because their solutions are terrible and detrimental doesn't mean that the issues should be ignored entirely. People can still approach the issues with solutions that actually resolve and benefit those that are troubled by said issues.
And while I'm indifferent to transgendered people, I wouldn't try to cause them harm because SJWs create so much commotion over them.

I don't really have much to say that hasn't already been said but I do find it strange how different people's attitudes can be towards transpeople. Go to almost any gay issue on the site, anything largely anti-gay will likely be downvoted to oblivion, and then I go to a page like Caitlyn Jenner's transition, and well, trollanort put it best on that page it just confuses me greatly. The people that annoy me the most are those who vehemently deny the existence of certain trans characters in media (poison from final fight/street fighter always comes to mind) despite how completely invalid the arguments that poison's sex is female are, people will just go into a state of denial about it for whatever reason. The worst part of that being that it's not even like she's shoehorned in for the sake of diversity, it's barely even mentioned. Now that I'm off my ridiculous tangent, despite the fact there are those who just seem unrelenting in discussions about trans issues I certainly don't think you should stop, there are plenty of other still willing to argue the other side :P

You see, KYM embraces most discrimination due to the small number of "extremist" 4chan trolls making all feminists/social justice people seem terrible. Gamergate perpetuates that opinion. The comments section thinks anything left of anti-feminism is being a SJW.

Hmm, this reminds me, you unfollowed me after saying a comment that some psychologists are still in dispute about what causes transgenderism – which is true. I'm not mad about it or anything but… there are some really transphobic posts on here but there's also moderate opinions that approach transgenderism from a different perspective.

I can understand your frustrations but at the same time I have my own frustrations with the transgender community as a single entity.

First and foremost, I have nothing against transgender people in general; in fact I pretty much support any sort of transitioning they need, as long as it isn't just given out for free (I'll go into that in a second).

As I've mentioned a few times before I also have an identity disorder that I prefer not to go into detail here. A major problem I face as someone who essentially has dysphoria/dysmorphia in a non-sexual part of my body is that I face constant erasure for my issues. The transgender community is one active participant in this erasure.

One thing I notice a lot about a lot of transgender (or possibly transtrender) people is that there's a huge sense of entitlement from the community. Again, not individuals, but the community. For example, there was a transwoman who was convicted of murder and was serving a long ass sentence. They came out as trans in 2000 and have been requesting surgery. Many people were supporting her transition.

I personally find this a complete mismanagement of funds, solely because transwomen can manage their issues, while many other prisoners could have had that money allocated to them where they need severe help. I have to put up with my crap, which can arguably be just as intense as someone with severe gender dysphoria, with no answer or solution. I don't have an option but I know as crazy as it makes me there are ways for me to deal with it.

Being trans sucks because of the dysphoria, don't get me wrong, but people who literally don't have a grasp on reality need help far more than a transgender person does, and until they receive the help they need, it's not really fair to disperse funds to someone who has more control over their lives.

Another issue would be Caitlyn Jenner. Again, I have nothing against her being trans, but she purposely puts herself out in the media. Look, Jenner met yet another celebrity after her transformation. Who cares. But we're all conveniently forgetting a few months before that she killed someone in what may be involuntary manslaughter. Why should I view someone who killed someone due to their irresponsibility as a driver as a "hero" just because of something outside of their control?

Going back to my issues, there are many so-called "activist" pieces that base purely on the writer's feelings how my issues supposedly don't exist or that we're just sick fucks or something. I'm not going to deny that I have a serious problem and that it's not normal, but this is literally the same shit that transgender people faced, and it's literally getting in the way of me being able to get a diagnosis and get treatment. As you can imagine I am incredibly frustrated with my current situation.

And seriously, what if they're wrong and I was right? Wouldn't be the first time it happened, just ask Harry Benjamin.

This "feelings" approach can be an issue because it gets in the way of research. Perhaps its the nature of my condition and the social stigma differences between yours and mine, but I find it very strange that anyone who requires surgery or hormonal treatment as someone who doesn't have a disorder. Having a disorder isn't a bad thing or a death sentence – look at most higher functioning autistics – it just means something is wrong. And while we may not have 100% conclusive evidence onto why, we do know that transitioning is the cure that works for these people. It would be completely unscientific to force conversion therapy or not to accept their internal gender, because it's been shown that transitioning works.

It's understandable though why this approach is taken. I don't necessarily agree with it but it makes sense – it's the best way to resonate with other people. Unfortunately I don't have that option and I'm stuck simply backing behind evidence. Evidence that can only be provided by a few avenues due to so-called "activist" pieces such as these discouraging research in an already unusual disorder. Again, this fuels my frustration with this approach.

Of course, many times, these disputes are filed as "transphobia" because they are complaints on the transgender community. I will be honest, sometimes when I voice my frustration, due to my own problems I get caught up in my own anger. But are my criticisms not justified for how I've been treated?

Perhaps this is just because of the people I've come across, and if that's so, then I apologize in advance. However these are consistent problems that I see in the activism in general. To be honest, Ms. Fortune, I think that the way you conduct yourself is perfectly fine and just. However, some of your peers do not. I am calling them out.

Of course transgender people face all sorts of crap in society today and honestly I empathize with a ton of their problems. I personally can empathize with how difficult it can be to make that first step from actively acting out your gender in public in front of people even though you "don't seem to have the right body for it". I know what it feels like to feel like you were born in the wrong body. I know how hard it is to describe dysmorphia to people. I know what it feels like for people to "just not get it" or to not accept who I am. I get it. And quite frankly I do support transgender rights to a reasonable extent. However, these major issues within the community make it difficult for me to turn a blind eye to these problems, especially when I'm personally affected by them and my voice is repeatedly silenced.

I mean, feel free to explain why my views are transphobic but I think this may be a reaction to views being different, not inherently destructive or hateful opinions.

inb4 downvote spam

@Blind Spy

I understand your point of view, but I'm more neutral towards it. Also, it's hard to understand what you even mean most of the time since you refuse to divulge what your condition is. I can kind of make vague assumptions and when I do that I see kind of what you're talking about but I could be way off and it would help me understand your side better if you told us. But, this is just a suggestion to improve your arguments and if you want to keep it under wraps that's totally fine you still made your point and I don't want to make you uncomfortable or possibly persecuted (who knows maybe even by me).

So yeah generally I'm fine with your point of view but I'm not exactly happy with it. In my eyes as long as you see trans people as normal human beings, treat them as their preferred gender, and accept that the treatment works and is often necessary, you're morally cool in my book. Even if you don't support the community as much as you could that's totally okay you know, everyone has their own battles, and if the community generally disenfranchises you it's understandable.

The only thing I take some issue with is your point of view on Caitlyn Jenner. While most of what you said is "right", I see it lretty differently. Yes trans people could use a better spokesperson, but I'm not going to be picky. In my eyes for this situation, the individual person who is the spokesperson is not important. What matters is that they make trans people heard, which is exactly what she does. I'm not going to worship her or call her a hero just for being trans, but I do love the media attention she gives the community and the fact that it's probably the most positive mainstream representation we've had like, ever. Lots of people don't agree with me but I just see her as a way to get us to the front of attention which we sorely need as the average person probably doesn't even know what being trans even means. Trans people have been in he shadows supporting themselves for the most part for so long and the misinformation has had so long to fester that this kind of attention is really important. Think what you want but that's how I see it. I've always been extra optimistic too.

Like I stated in my post, I have dysmorphia/dysphoria in a part of my body that isn't sexual. So think being trans but not in your penis or vagina or whatever. I'd rather not go into more details because of our own problems with representation but I think you can get the gist of things.

I agree with most of what you're saying but there's nothing normal about being transgender. It occurs in less than 1% of the population and people who are severely afflicted go through extreme modifications to their own bodies to relieve the symptoms. No matter how you reposition it, that is not normal. However, it's also not normal to have autism, or have generalized anxiety disorder, or have depression, or bipolar, or OCD. Even outside of "disorders" it's not normal to be a man under 5 feet tall or a woman over 6 feet tall, or a woman to be a programmer, or a man to be a stay-at-home-dad, or a man to like My Little Pony or a woman to like drag racing but none of these things are "bad", just not normal. There's no reason why the concept of transgender people being "not normal" and treating them with basic respect are two mutually exclusive ideas. Perhaps it rubs people the wrong way due to the social connentations of the word "normal" but that's another problem that should be addressed separately – one that will help many more people than just transgenders.

I ultimately believe that you should treat transgender people with respect by using their proper name and pronouns, or at least try to make an effort to do so. It's difficult for some people such as myself due to me already having trouble with pronouns and names but I make every effort to try to respect them, and I think it does show through most cases, outside of batshit insane tumblr SJWs or something. Mutual understanding is key and while it may be difficult for both sides, it's the attempt to reach a common ground that is most important. Refusing to acknowledge their basic social needs such as their pronouns completely destroys this possibility.

The problem I have with Jenner is that she's bad representation. It's true that representation is important but bad representation is more destructive than what it's worth. I know this is a fictional example, but consider the damage that a character like Mr. Magoo did to enforce stereotypes and create new problems for the representation of blind people. Good representation, like Daredevil, breaks these stereotypes and shows people who are traditionally considered "not normal" in a light that shows that their differences are not important and that they still deserve to be treated with respect.

People who don't support transgender people will often look at Jenner, mock the media circus surrounding her and point out that, again, she is in some pretty serious legal shit regarding the fact that she killed someone. They empathize with the family that lost their family member in this accident because they are being ignored while what appears to be Jenner's ego trip is continually being fanned by the media. If Jenner didn't have this issue I would probably find the coverage simply annoying but this is a pretty serious problem that I don't see people talking about. Again, she's not a "hero" and there are better people out there to be decent representation.

Honestly, I engage people much less frequently on the issue than I did in the pre-Gamergate era. It is very hard to have a conversation on the topic without the "die cis scum" and "triggered" shitposting. There are just too many petulant children eager to crack a shitty joke or find an enemy in somebody. That's not a KYM problem, that is a universal problem. Sadly, they are highly rewarded on KYM because seemingly every other page has a "triggered" joke as the second-rated comment, usually a Don parody assuming the first-rated comment. It's a circlejerk of bleating about tumblr and being spooked by SJW skeletons.

The backlash against aggressively PC groups trying to force their agendas as the status quo wouldn't exist if there weren't aggressively PC groups trying to force their agendas as the status quo.

Just something worth noting.

Of course, but outside of a very small portion of the internet, the backlash is a lot stronger and more frequent then what it protests. Nobody deserves a pile of shitty memes for expressing an opinion that is both reasonable and relatively common.

And what exactly is this "reasonable and relatively common" opinion?

Of course, but outside of a very small portion of the internet, the backlash is a lot stronger and more frequent then what it protests.

Everyone always insists their political side is the underdog, whenever it is convenient for them to do so in a debate. I rarely take such claims seriously as they are almost never telling the whole truth, or even a half truth.

Anything from "there is a difference between gender and sex" to "it's not a mental illness". Anything that isn't extreme or completely asinine. I'm sure that OP could come up with more, he's not some lunatic. The point is, it takes very little to get a "triggered" or "mind my pronouns, shitlord" crack, especially on KYM. They're certainly used as responses for more than the ideas that they're actually critical of.

it’s not a mental illness

Sorry to burst your bubble, but…

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

As someone who's read a shit-ton of KYM comments myself, I just plain haven't seen what you claim to have seen. The supposed anti-transgender bias of the comments section is, in my view, severely exaggerated. I previously made a similar, more in-depth post on the last page of this thread- there, RandomMan made a great point as well: shitposts are just shitposts, and to try to extrapolate much of anything out of them is to misunderstand a fundamental aspect of online culture.

In addition, I concur with Jarbox- to say that gender dysphoria isn't a mental disorder isn't necessarily a "reasonable" opinion.

DSM listed homosexuality as a mental disorder for how long?
Why do you guys always ignore that part when you bring up the mental illness thing?
Pedophilia isn't a mental disorder anymore, btw.

For as long as psychologists thought that it was one, until research disproved it?

Even so, that's comparing apples and oranges.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15841704

To be clear, my position on the matter is "transgenderism is a mental disorder… so what?" For fuck's sake, high-functioning autism (which I have) is a mental disorder. All "mental disorder" really means is that your brain is working differently from what is typically expected in whichever aspect that the disorder effects. It is an extremely wildly varying classification, and painting all of them with the same brush is the mindset that we should be trying to get away from.

To specifically address Lisa's point, the fact that we now know that 100%, would-never-do-anything-gay-ever people are probably in the minority proves that calling homosexuality a mental disorder doesn't make any sense.

{ For as long as psychologists thought that it was one, until research disproved it? }

Which, of course, is a very solid argument if you completely ignore how global psychologists are increasingly getting together to debate whether or not research proves GID should no longer be considered a disorder…

The essay you've linked me to is just one side of argument, and it's increasingly the losing side.

It was also written by the guy who single-handedly declassified homosexuality as a disorder. Fun fact.

also:

Are these what I'm supposed to be considering "shitposts"? :|

Ten seconds of scrolling on the Caitlyn Jenner page. I can go back and find plenty more.

I don't particularly care much about the comments of what are obviously teenagers, I just want to know what magical world ya'll posting here are living in where KYM is this beautiful place of happy acceptance and tolerance except for shitposts which, like, totally don't count~?

It was also written by the guy who single-handedly declassified homosexuality as a disorder.

Thus showing the major differences in how they would classify GID verses homosexuality…?

The arguments and the research are there. They show that there is clearly some kind of problem with the brain that causes dysphoria, and that the best solution is the treatment methods that are currently being used; therapy, hormone therapy, and surgery (The same treatment that trans people are asking the government to provide for them!). Even assuming that the DSM is volatile and going into the realm of subjective judgements, it seems like a pretty clear case to me.

Shitposts don't count because they are shitposts. I believe that's why they are called… shitposts.

I'll give you credit that you did find three comments that (probably) aren't that, but it'll take a significantly greater amount of evidence to prove that this is inherent to the comment section. Note the three "I'm a BNM" blank faces- these people don't necessarily represent the community. And the last one isn't even explicitly anti-transgender, though I'll admit that I wouldn't be surprised if that individual turned out to be that way.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but…
http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf
I'm not here to debate either of those points. In fact, nothing that I said even suggested that those were my personal beliefs. I am just saying that these are "reasonable" arguments in the sense that they are sincere and formally sound, unlike "cis people need to die" or whatever. I am well-aware of what the APA's statement on it is, and even your link explains why it's not considered a "disorder".

As someone who’s read a shit-ton of KYM comments myself, I just plain haven’t seen what you claim to have seen. The supposed anti-transgender bias of the comments section is, in my view, severely exaggerated. I previously made a similar, more in-depth post on the last page of this thread- there, RandomMan made a great point as well: shitposts are just shitposts, and to try to extrapolate much of anything out of them is to misunderstand a fundamental aspect of online culture.
In addition, I concur with Jarbox- to say that gender dysphoria isn’t a mental disorder isn’t necessarily a “reasonable” opinion.
I mean what, if I linked one of the thirty triggered or shitlord jokes posted around the site in the last 24 hours would that be sufficient? Here are some:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/993/370/0f0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iWQMJQY.png
http://i.imgur.com/1onADXe.png

It's not just shitposting. Memes that may slant toward some sort of social justice stance or away from anything that is popular on this site gets downvoted to hell, not top comment.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but it seems like you're shifting the goalposts. I thought we were talking about attitudes towards transgendered people, not Tumblr those who identify as "Social Justice advocates". The assumption that these are irreconcilably linked is just plain wrong.
And though you say "it's not just shitposting", I see no attempt to present the context or to explain where you think the humor is being derived from those images.
For example, it may surprise you to find out that the OP of this exact thread has the second top comment on the last of those.

Wait so could someone explain to me where this debate is going and what you're discussing n a nutshell? I've been trying to follow this thread since it was made but now I'm lost I saw a debate on whether being trans is a mental disorder or not but the rest I don't get sorry. I hear stuff about shitposts but I don't get it. So basically a dumbed down summary or something would be nice if you'd like to help me out.

As for my opinion on the mental disorder thing I think what .9999 does in that it doesn't even matter. It's just a label and boils down to semantics you can still be a functioning human being if you have lots of mental disorders so if psychiatrists decide to name it one or not is of no consequence to me.

I am not shifting the goalposts. I am saying that attitudes towards transgendered people and towards Tumblr are directly linked, same as OP. Any comment on the former, especially a positive one, frequently results in posts directed at the latter. Defending transgendered people? Only SJWs do that. Saying it's not a disorder? Tiggered Xd!!1 there is plenty of room for discussion on that, but the desperate milking of those memes makes sincere discussion impossible. Nobody wants to defend a position when everybody is calling them an SJW and responding to them with pictures of Big Red. Shitposting is one thing when it's purely mindless behavior that isn't relevant to anything in particular. When it's directed en masse at one person and against what it is that they are saying, it's something very different.

And once again, all I can really say is I haven't seen what you've described in the way you're describing it. I could go into more detail with that if you provided some examples with full context included.

I dunno, I think that's more of a jab at tumblr social justice culture than actual anti-transgender stuff. Yeah, sure, there is some overlap but that stuff never really happens in real life or even outside of that website. It is a lot more common than you may think and it is a lot less avoidable than you may think as well.

Ultimately this does highlight a big problem though – this extremely vocal minority which is attempting to define and describe these concepts in such an aggressive and unnecessarily confrontational way are the people that people are going to remember. This is why everything should be done to stop it. PR is very fickle and even a slight miswording can cause serious issues – someone outright advocating genocide or actively playing the "turn the tables on them" game are the people who are going to be the most memorable and are basically setting any PR on fire.

It's not right but at the same time it's very understandable why people react in that way.