Forums / Discussion / Serious Debate

Lately I'm noticing when it comes to trans related topics on this site you often get people who frankly act like real jerks in the comments sections by being all like "fuck trannies and their gender identities and anyone who disagrees with me is an SJW I will downvote to oblivion." I wasn't expecting certain comment section regulars to have such stereotypical *chan or EDiot mentalities, and yes there's a difference between someone acting like "a stereotypical social justice warrior from the bad side of Tumblr" and "calling out people for being a legitimate asshole to trans people," the latter of which I do on occasion but yet often get people responding with comments that can be amounted to "argue with me all you want I'm not changing my pre-made bigoted beliefs whatsoever you SJW, go back to Tumblr," ignoring the fact I've said REPEATEDLY I have a strong dislike towards the radical social justice side as I feel these groups often only cause more harm than good for people like me.

I think the worst are people who do things like misgender on purpose as they know that's the easiest way to be a dick, and people who are all like "YOU WERE BORN _____ I'LL CALL YOU A _____ YOU FUCKING FAGGOT!" (clearly medical science is something these specific people refuse to listen to).

Look I try and have a good humor most of the time, I'm not offended by people making jokes like "I identify as an inanimate object" or stuff like "tranny," "chicks with dicks," and "dudes with boobs," but there is a point where some people are clearly NOT joking at all and are just straight up dicks who probably also unrionically believe in that "internet hate machine" crap that even *chan people will mock you for taking seriously.

I think the worst are people who do things like misgender on purpose as they know that’s the easiest way to be a dick, and people who are all like “YOU WERE BORN _____ I’LL CALL YOU A _____ YOU FUCKING FAGGOT!” (clearly medical science is something these specific people refuse to listen to).

While the tone is certainly over the top, medical science only says that trans people have a brain sharing some similarities to the opposite sex, while still having a body that is exactly what you'd expect it to be for their sex. There's not something especially "wrong" about misgendering someone, although it's obviously something that may offend them.

I was referring more to those who do it on purpose as a way to try and get under someone's skin, "honest mistakes" are different and I understand those.

Tumblr is badly stereotyped on websites such as these. Oftentimes people on the internet – in my experience Reddit – will state they are left wing, but post and upvote blatantly transphobic, racist, sexist, and homophobic content. The last two are fading but still pop up every now and again.

I encourage you not to give up. Some of these people are so stalwart in their opinions, but others are less so. They accuse 'SPOOKY GHOST's' of hosting their own echo chambers while upvoting the same hackneyed opinions and jokes into the hundreds (I'm looking at you, r/KotakuInAction). If they have any degree of self awareness, they will eventually change.

By the standards of KYM and Reddit, I am probably a 'SPOOKY GHOST', but then again anyone with social views left of centre right in today's internet climate will be considered so.

For the record, I do not hate men or white people.

I was referring more to those who do it on purpose as a way to try and get under someone’s skin, “honest mistakes” are different and I understand those.

That seems like a false dichotomy to me. Both of those people exist, but there are also people that will 'misgender' others because they believe they are being factually correct in doing so.

Well in those cases I would politely tell them it's considered more proper to refer to a trans person by the gendered pronouns they prefer. If they were to still refuse even after that, they're clearly people who probably aren't worth me dealing with.

Okay, I see the people who are acting like bigoted (or perhaps just misinformed) idiots. That will be a given… everywhere. But what I don't notice is these "comment section regulars" you're talking about. Just looking at the at the recent activity, those that can clearly be identified as acting like pieces of shit are…

1. A blank-faced BNM.
2. A blank-faced essentially BNM who despite joining over four years ago has amassed less than ten total contributions.
2. Some guy named "Jihad Jimmy" (gee, I wonder what to think about him?) who's only made about twenty comments in his eleven months here, and so I think would just barely escape the BNM classification.
4. Alright, one user who's approaching 400 comments in nine months on KYM. I suppose technically you could count him.

But that's about it.

My few attempts at having online conversations about trans issues quickly degenerated into name calling…on the part of LGBT activists. There is a world of difference between "fuk you, phagot" and "I'm sticking to the medical pronouns." I've found that even the most polite variants of the latter set off LGBT-minded people's "destroy the nonbeliever!" response.

May I ask how these situations went then? Like can you give me an idea on specific things you said?

I'm a bit afraid that doing so will just cause the same conversation to occur again, but I'll give it a go. Without using any sort of slur, I suggested that one's sex cannot truly be changed as a result of surgery, the use of chromosome-based pronouns is acceptable, pro-trans activists are enabling potentially destructive behavior, and that just because one's brain tells them something does not necessarily make it true (citing my own struggles with OCD as an example). Again, I went out of my way not to be crude. My use of language was essentially the same as it is here. Those participating in the discussion went about 2-4 in favor of LGBT issues. Interestingly, only one of the LGBT supporters claimed to be LGBT. I was called a cunt, a piece of shit, and a bigot. The worst I called anybody was "he." I recognize my opinions clash drastically with what others feel and might incite anger, but that is the nature of an adult debate on a controversial topic. It's fine to disagree with me and refute my opinions, but reducing yourself to petty insults is bad form.

As for your problems with comments on this site, I have no doubt there are plenty of lousy people saying lousy things. However, experience tells me that LGBT activists can sometimes be oversensitive, so I'm a little skeptical that all of these comments you mention are people being jerks instead of just contrary opinions.

Well I will say I certainly disagree with your line of thinking on this subject, but no I will not resort to name calling. I still at least request you continue to be civil in this issue, and do politely request you try and see it more from the perspective of a trans person such as myself (if you want to ask me questions in private you can).

(no seriously I can't even think of a joke right now)

Yeah at this point I've learned to just kind of leave them alone especially now. Like with the espys and stuff the caitlyn comments got noticeably worse to me. What's even more confounding is the fact that upvotes and downvotes are even more meaningless than usual in those comment sections a transphobe could get a top comment right next to someone speaking against them or the opposite where both sides get buried for no visible reason. But yeah I'm generally done and all the discussions I've had on being trans in the comments lead no where. Hell once I saw this dude who stopped arguing because 2 or 3 people were presenting articles and stuff and he said "my brain hurts".

One thing I've also noticed is people being rude and then acting like they're the victims. I'll even name two of the people I've seen do this who are poochyeena and farm zombie (primarily poochyeena). Usually I hear it like "how am I a transphobe I'm just saying trans people aren't actually their gender you're abusing the term". That's exactly what racists, sexists, and homophobes say to defend themselves. There are varying levels of bigotry just because you're not saying "die niggers", "women should be paid less", or "fuckin gross trannies" doesn't mean you can't be discriminating. Of course if you're discriminating you still should have a voice and shouldn't have insults thrown at you but playing the victim and trying to turn the argument around isn't going to work. It's happened too many times for me to even care to remember most of them do it. They're like "I think these people should do what they want but I hate it" or "I'm very supporting of LGBT rights" (probably excluding the T in their heads)

Ughhh as you can tell I'm just done with the comments like you fortune at this point it's like youtube to where I don't even want to scroll down anymore. I always thought KYM was a bastion of sanity and LGBT support but apparently it's like all the other sites.

"One thing I’ve also noticed is people being rude and then acting like they’re the victims."

Holy cow, this exactly describes many people I've dealt with.

Usually I hear it like “how am I a transphobe I’m just saying trans people aren’t actually their gender you’re abusing the term”. That’s exactly what racists, sexists, and homophobes say to defend themselves.

False equivalency. It is a medical fact that current surgeries cannot fully or, in some cases, even partially change the sex of a person. It is also a medical fact that the biological discrepancies of trans people are generally regulated to certain areas of the brain and not the whole body.

Problem with these discussions is that both sides devolve the issue into a witch hunt and a politically guided witch hunt at that.

If you don't agree with one side, and you stick to your opinion. You're either a SJW trying to use these issues to further the liberal hate machine. Or a filthy transphobe bigot who probably wears a white hood and posts on /pol/ as a regular. There's 0 middle ground allowed, and if you look above its occurring right now. We got the caricatures being unloaded by people on the "supporting side" of trans-issues, and pretty soon we're gonna get the caricature of avergae-tumblrite-warrior in here soon. And the line that separates them from normal being is being drawn smaller and smaller as this thread goes on.

Frankly, I think both sides could use a big helping of humble pie. Learn to listen to another persons opinion on the matter without feeling you need to write a thesis essay to show why they're horrible and their opinions are awful. Learn that "I don't agree" is not them jumping up and giving a salute to Mel Gibson/John Waters.

Because in an adult and mature conversation, there's rarely an actual "right" side. And chances are that even if there is, you aren't on it. You're just on a portion of it, and the rejection of the rest of it makes it go into the wrong category. It's about listening to others and showing respect for everyone. Even if their opinion makes you want to piledrive them through a glass table.

And that's just something the internet is not prepared for, let alone any 1 website on the internet.

@jarbox

Well it's obvious sex can't be changed, I'm just saying that these people refuse to refer to people as what they prefer like it's so much trouble for them and then start going "woah take it easy I'm not a bigot" when you tell them they're being rude. Sorry if my comment was worded weird or something but that's what I meant.

@Black Graphic

I didn't see any caricaturing please point it out. And I do agree that there shouldn't be names thrown around (unless in special circumstances, you'd know a comment that deserved some insults if you saw it) but the way you worded this I don't like very much. This is another thing the transphobes like to pull saying "woah it's just an opinion man everyone has an opinion right?" Yes and so is the opinion that women shouldn't go to college. Usually these people seriously underestimate what their words can mean, especially to people who happen to be trans. They don't see how it could hurt people when comments like "trans people will never be what they want to so I won't refer to them as such" is exactly the kind of stuff that gets kids to kill themselves becsuse they feel surrounded in a hostile unaccepting world. Yes these words are powerful it transcends being "just an opinion". I'll tolerate opinions when it's about your favorite movie or hell who you're voting for but discrimination is where I draw the line. I'm ot attacking you specifically black graphic and like I said I agree civility should be maintained but just kind of doing a side argument off of something your post reminded me of.

So lesson to be learned, those words you think don't matter do. Nearly all the people I've argued with in the comments pull the "it's just an opinion let it go" and the victim cards. I'm sure if these same people saw a racist in the comments they would drive the racjst off even if they were civil and up front about it. Hell they probably wouldn't even use arguments mainly just downvotes, reaction images, and insults and then they complain you're being too hard on them for thinking they're a bigot. It's all perspective, try to put yourself in my shoes for a sec.

Finally I'd like to address something fortune brought up in her original post which was the purposeful misgendering. What she said I see everywhere as well as other examples you're probably familiar with. For one there's the "she" in quotation marks. Second is saying HE in caps and trying to fit as many male words intk a post as possible, all of them being in caps of course. And then they claim to not be hateful? Blugh. I'm just too done with the comments if you can't tell.

This is a general thread. Not, riff-raff. You're not funny and Ms Fortune is trying to have a real discussion.

On topic now:

I think some people who post about transgenders, or any real major subjects that can potentially hurt people, are being asses for the sake of being an ass. Anonymity is a strong thing. You can say whatever you want, because your safe behind your computer screen. I guess all I can say is, take people's opinions with a grain a salt. Especially on KYM, 4chan, Reddit, and even Tumblr. They're mostly just trying to hurt individuals so they can start something.

@Slutty Sam.

In your post asking me to point out where the caricaturing is, you've equated my call for moderation and a maturity in handling other opinions as, "another thing the transphobes like to pull". That "its just an opinion" is equivalent to "women shouldn’t go to college". That I am creating a pro-suicide environment by saying "tolerance of other opinions is something we need in this discussions". And then to tie the bow on it, you finish off with saying anything that you don't consider an opinion is discrimination, and try to brush this off as not an attack.

And now I should change my post, because "those words you think don't matter do". Even though all the stuff you posted above could easily be seen as soft-attempts at coercion and intimidation by doing the old, "You wouldn't agree with a racist would you? So stop disagreeing with me, or else".

Or do you think I'm just playing the victim card in all this? Perhaps I simply don't like being misnomered, or used as a example for you to launch accusations at others, simply for calling for a tolerance of conflicting opinions. Maybe i don't appreciate rhetoric that come from these discussions, that anyone who doesn't 100% agree regarding your view on transsexual issues is an enemy and some form of oppressor who must be corrected. Maybe you should also, "try to put yourself in my shoes for a sec" and realize that just because someone doesn't say the exact grammar and semantics you want, doesn't make them a borderline black, women, and lgbt hating bigot.

you think "KYM" is Anti-Trans?

You wot?
Look i'm against Transsexuals and many other crazed things but "KYM", a VERY Liberal and pro-LGBT to the point where they feel the need for Rainbowfy everything, is a Anti-Trans Website?

Just because people are against your opinions doesn't mean you have to lose hope, it means you'll have to discuss, and don't tell me your opponent is the only one acting like they are stuffing their agenda to ye, because i know that's bullshit.

and by all means

"Look i’m against Transsexuals and many other crazed things but"

This is exactly what they were talking about.

I really hope that was just Riff Raff shitposting.

Those points weren't that bad either, but now they can;t be agreed with without the big old strawman coming to town. Rightfully so, mind you, since its kinda obvious that your transphobic if you're opening with "I don't like transsexuals". Or just being a dick, either of which still makes you a dick.

Still, how much you want to bet anyone whose like "KYM is kinda left-of-center" or "there's some agenda pushing on the other side" are gonna get lumped in with stalker? My bets 50/50.

You are stupid.

He's not stupid.

He's being an Asshole.

Two different, yet equally infuriating things.

And sadly, cause he's just posting stuff to get people riled up, then pointing fun at them getting riled up, this is probably gonna happen for a while now. Best just to ride it out and wait for boredom and time to inevitably take its toll.

Comparing transgenderism to 'crazed things'.

If this is representative of the wider KYM community, then now I know why that attack helicopter copypasta is so popular.

Comparing gender dysphoria to "I sexually identify as a toaster" is degrading. If this is 'liberal' then I'd hate to see the conservative spin.

A single shitposter doesn't represent the wider KYM community. You're blowing this out of proportion and giving stalker fuel to use.

Why are you assuming the guy calls himself liberal?

You don't have to pass an opinion test before you get to join this website, y'know.

The comment section for the Caitlyn Jenner article says differently:

"I'm actually a couch trapped in a man's body." – Bane. (upvoted +8)

"Check your seat privileges." – Gant47, as a reply. (+4)

"I sexually identify as an attack helicopter…etc etc" Lil B, underneath. (+1)

KYM may be pro-LGB, but it is more than willing to discard the T.

Make a post 3 hours ago and we got the asshat with anonymity and trying to stir up trouble. Thank you, Mr.Stalker, for proving that homo sapiens really did interbreed with neanderthals.

Also, thank you, for contributing to Cindy Kallist's post and proving their point.

What the hell happened here? I have half a mind to lock this immediately.

@Kurenai @Taryn

I know that this is an emotionally charged issue, but please refrain from giving personal insults to others.

@Mr.Stalker

Show some basic respect; begin by not referring to trans* people as "crazed things". Not only do your insults reflect poorly on your character, but they eviscerate your flimsy claims to being the oppressed underdog in this situation.

why i thought my post wouldn’t Trigger random people. but if you hate the opposition so much then fine i’ll leave you to a circlejerk.

If you're not going to make a meaningful addition to this thread, please just refrain from posting. Thank you for proving the point of this thread though.

@Everyone else

Please refrain from replying to his posts as well from now on, and try to not drag this thread towards a derail. I'll deal with Stalker through the official channels.

Any further derailment will unfortunately have me consider to lock this thread.

The comment section for the Caitlyn Jenner article says differently:
“I’m actually a couch trapped in a man’s body.” – Bane. (upvoted 8)
“Check your seat privileges.” – Gant47, as a reply. (4)
“I sexually identify as an attack helicopter…etc etc” Lil B, underneath. (+1)
KYM may be pro-LGB, but it is more than willing to discard the T.

Those posts are shitposts, they do not accurately represent a person's opinion towards transgenders. I understand making jokes or shitposts related to the topic is always a dangerous case as it still involves an oppressed group of people, but I also believe that they then shouldn't be free of that.

It is rude to assume that you can draw conclusions on their opinions towards a certain topic based on shitposts.

I as well have made jokes like that, but at the same time I'm open-minded and accept trans. OP said she can handle a joke like that as long as it's a joke, and for example Sam is also trans and I know she can handle this stuff. If they openly weren't able to deal with jokes like that, I wouldn't make them. That is only decensy.

But at the same time, I'm not gonna tell you're fully wrong. People in general are quicker to accept the LGB outside of the T part. Our community is of course no different.

How open people are on this site can depend A LOT on the area you're visting. Our forum posters (save a select few as you've seen here) are very open and accepting towards the LGBT community, and we have various users who are LGBT who post here and they can probably tell you the same.

Our comment section on the other hand, kinda has those groups in reverse. Cancer there is big, and the vague self-acclaimed "anti-SJWs" roam in great numbers. They're not much of a fan of our mod team, and we've been accused of being "SJWs" on multiple occassions hahaha. We are the, as you called it, ‘SPOOKY GHOST’ hahaha. Pay little attention to them, they aren't very open to outside opinions.

But to go actually back to the question asked in the topic:

No, you should not give up. As long as topics like trans remain a discussion in society, you are free to discuss them on our site as well and I even promote doing so. It's good to have open-minded folks share their views, and I wish we had more of them.

If you're insecure about your posts and opinions, which seems to be the case, perhaps just pick the area where you post. As I said, the forums are more open than the comments to this stuff, but of course that doesn't mean I'm not going to hold you back from posting about it in the comments. Our comment section can use a good sweep, and if people with opposing opinions from that circlejerk refrain from posting in there we're never getting that echo chamber gone.

Regardless of the backlash your comments may sometimes that, never forget that you also have a lot of support on here.

Alright, let's see if I can bring some understanding to the conversation. Here's the thing, the reason I believe people get so angry over this. Both sides are effectively afraid of harm, and conservatives are even more afraid as it can lead to more than harm. Let me preface this with saying, I'm fairly liberal, so I think my words can be taken as an attempt to understand, not an attack on either side. Looking at those more liberal first, and trans* people themselves, their concern is in causing pain and injustice to an oppressed group. This is a recurring theme. Liberals in general are very sensitive to this – it's why they promote equality and animal rights so much. This sensitivity is driven by a sense of urgency. Now's their chance, and if they don't do something who else might kill themselves over it? Conservatives, on the other hand, tend to me more concerned with keeping order. History tends to be a stronger factor in their decisions. Furthermore, they have a sense of morality liberals don't – sanctity. Transgenders may appear as though they break the sanctity of gender/sexuality/etc to them. Keep this in mind next time you meet someone who disagreed with you on this – maybe they're just set up different in the head, and aren't jerks or morons. Also, try to play better to their views. Wonder why "sanctity of marriage " is still held by conservatives while mocked by liberals? Liberals don't tend to understand sanctity as a basis for morality. You must tailor the message to your audience.

{ just because one’s brain tells them something does not necessarily make it true (citing my own struggles with OCD as an example). }

You're opening up one hell of a can of worms with that kinda logic. Just because your brain tells you you're a homosexual does not make it true, we'll give you therapy and meds until you know the truth~ How do you differentiate between the truth and when your brain is lying to you? Is every part of your identity that doesn't align with currently accepted social norms (girls who like blue? dads that knit?) a lie from your brain?

It's pretty apparent that the majority opinion on trans+ pages is "I'm still going to call him 'he' because that's how he was born" which is not a shitpost and is a pretty common opinion on the issue no matter what site you're on. It's also the easiest and fastest way to piss off a trans+ person. It's also the easiest request to comply with. Having to call someone "she" instead of "he" is really no different from using "Bill" instead of "William Reginald the 8th" in terms of the sort of burden it places on you (the not-trans person).

but no, OP, you shouldn't give up discussing an issue on which you have a legitimate point of view just because your opinion is not the accepted majority opinion in the community you're talking to. Especially on a site where the average user is apparently 16 years old, you're going to get a lot of reactionary responses that are very shallow in regard to the topic because not everybody is at a point in their lives where they see the benefit in thinking critically about an issue that doesn't really effect them personally. But you also might get a handful who are at that point in life, or may take a step in that direction due to something you've presented reasonably well, and thus you should consider yourself obligated to keep on bringing that opposing view to the circlejerk.

2 Answers to this
Comments: Well with their mindset of "everyone that disagrees with me is and SJW which are worse than neo nazis" (yes someone said that) "and they'll be that way til they die" its kinda hard to discuss a delicate topic like that without people flipping their shit and calling you an SJW so yea, best to give up there.
Forums: Contrary to popluar belief we are very supportive in discussing it in many many MANY threads with only a few bad apples here in there.
Overall everyone has my point exactly, just because you aren't the majority doesn't mean you can't discuss, cuz as the great Billie Joe said:
"I want to be the minority
I don't need your authority
Down with the moral majority
'Cause I want to be the minority"

I noticed the quality of this thread took a sharp dive once Mr. Stalker started posting.

Also, the Forums crowd and the Comments Crowd are very different from one another. Usually the forums are much better for discussing since it's mostly the same regular users who have been posting for a while now and have a grasp on how to debate by now and someone know each other, vs. a bunch of random people who know nothing of each other, a lot of whom have twenty posts to their name, having a petty slap fight amongst people who are trolling just to see the arguing idiots blow their lids.

As people said before, I believe the biggest problem is the "If you're not with me your against me" mentality and the whole general refusal to acknowledge a middle ground exists that brings up the false dichotomy of "Agreeing 100% with everything Trans rights says" and "Being a Trans-phobic that wants all Trannies to burn" There is no negotiation or trying to understand each other's positions to come to an understanding, just people wanting to "win" Also, a lot of people are being alienated from the discussion when people who are Pro-Trans rights are insulted and called Trans-phobic for disagreeing with a single point of the Pro-Trans argument.

I think this is the biggest problem, because you can't have a discussion when people are unwilling to hear the other side. The people on the "Pro-Trans" side who do this are no better than the Bigots who won't hear the other side because "It's different/weird" I am Pro-Trans rights, but I try to avoid this discussion because I find myself attacked from the people I'm arguing against and the people I'm arguing for.

However, this is not everyone and everywhere, there are places that can discuss Trans-rights civilly and intelligently. KYM comments are not one of them, but the Forums are, and are one of the few places I am willing to even say the word "Trans" on. If you are going to try to have a serious discussion, the forums are the place to go. If you are trying to tell a prick in the comments why he's wrong, just know when to back out and call your battles, if the comment is "Yu were bron a gui so I call u a gui" It's not worth it. If they seem intelligent, but of a different opinion, know that the "Yu were bron" guy might show up at any minute.

{How do you differentiate between the truth and when your brain is lying to you? Is every part of your identity that doesn’t align with currently accepted social norms (girls who like blue? dads that knit?) a lie from your brain?}
It's a tricky situation, no doubt. I'd say differentiating between an unconventional opinion and a harmful psychiatric problem should be based upon the discomfort of the individual and how well it lines up with objective reality. There are people whose brains tell them they are amputees when all their limbs work fine. Reality trumps mentality in this case. The potential result of enabling the person's delusions is the amputation of healthy, functional limbs. Now, what is potential result of a dad wanting to knit? Sweaters. It's a case-by-case basis and it isn't perfect, but we need to balance our respect for people's identities with respect for reality. My point is that the argument "I believe this about myself, therefore that is what I am" is not without flaws.

{ The potential result of enabling the person’s delusions is the amputation of healthy, functional limbs. }

Which doesn't effect you personally any more than calling someone you know was born male "she", but may cause that person to feel as though their life is now worth living and alleviate the resulting mood/mental disorders that come from living every day wishing you were dead. "That limb was perfectly fine tho" and all the long hair that random girl you don't know decided to chop off was beautiful, but she's rocking a pixie cut now anyway.

Your line in this scenario is where your respect for reality ends. My line is where your respect for reality directly intrudes on mine/society's in general. You wanting to be bald or a man that knits, or a woman, or handicap, or undergoing insane surgeries to look like this or this does not effect my/society's reality in any way. You wanting to make other people handicap or extremely modified or dead because of something your brain is telling you is where it becomes problematic.

The fuck should I care if some man wants to be a woman, or cut off an arm and go through the rest of life struggling more than I personally feel is necessary? You do you.

I have no ability to prevent someone from undergoing unnecessary surgeries, nor do I want to. But I'm not going to celebrate self-destructive behavior as the next great step in civil rights. This makes me worse than Hitler, apparently. I think it is highly questionable for society to chuck reality out the window and shame those who refuse. When I read think pieces about a child receiving puberty-suppressing drugs because he said he might like to be a girl, it makes me wonder if this live-and-let-live movement is starting to take it's toll on society.

@Farm

Exactly like Lisa said what does it matter to you? And of course I almost forgot this argument I see in all the comment sections which is the inevitable "what if they wanted to cut their arms off???" Like Lisa said you have to measure the amount of damage something can do. Dressing up like a girl and growing tits isn't exactly going to destroy someone's life, especially if that person might rather kill themselves than live as a man as you'd have it. Seriously though how are you comparing amputation to wanting to appear like the opposite sex? That's a huge slippery slope if I ever saw one. It also makes the assumption like many transphobes that trans women "just want to chop their dicks off". You didn't use that wording but I've seen it too much and your post reminds me of this exactly except in a calmer more professional way. Not all trans people want to have surgery and if you want an example you're speaking to one.

And of course there's the argument that how is modifying your genitals similar to being amputated similar in any way? Sure the mental dysphoria both disorders entail are similar at the psychological level but in terms of physical health you are sorely mistaken if you're implying that they're both very debilitating. Swapping genitals is just that, swapping genitals. And as I said before keeping people away from these treatments and telling them they're not their preferred gender is what leads to the huge suicide statistics you're probably sick of seeing at this point. Yes the costs and benefits should be weighed and it's pretty clear that a legitimately trans person getting hormone treatments, dressing up as the opposite sex, and getting surgeries is of vital importance to a patient's mental health and physically they function as any other human and aren't missing an entire limb like you try to compare it to.

And finally like Lisa pointed, how out calling someone you usually see as "he" "she" so difficult? It's like if a friend is called Nicholas and you call them Nick or any name change. I know someone who changed their name (to detach themselves from a bad family) and everyone referred to him as such without even asking twice. Trans people are asking you to call them a boy or a girl just like anybody else it's not "special privileges". You're not going to have to change the way you use the english language like otherkin for example. All you do when you refuse to call people what they want is cause mental anguish and yet you claim you don't want to treat people as their preferred gender "for their own health". Give me a break.

EDIT: "Self-destructive" Of course you've yet to even give a modicum of a reason as to how transition is a destructive practice when someone is actually transgender, has been for years, goes through therapy and endocrinologists, etc. That's not even an argument comparing it to amputation is asinine.

And trans kids getting blockers is an entirely different argument, we even had a thread about it not too long ago where lisa actually agreed with you on it. But as I said, not relevant, this is about legal adults who know full and well what they're doing and have had years to think.

Swapping genitals is just that, swapping genitals.

The new genitals a person receives do not function perfectly in regards to 'home grown' ones. For example, the vagina created through surgery is treated by the body as an open wound rather then a natural organ, which requires that it be forced open on occasion so that it isn't sealed up. It also tends to bleed a lot.

These operations aren't perfect and I really wish people would stop pretending that they are.

I was aware of all of this and while it isn't as simple as I described, it still isn't deeply damaging like zombie tries to peg it as. You can still piss, you can still have sex, etc. It requires some extra maintenance (mainly in the very beginning) but most trans people with genital dysphoria feel it's very very worth it and as I said, the plumbing still works and lots of them would rather kill themselves or at the least suffer severe anxiety than live without their preferred junk.

Secondly as I also said already not all trans people even want genital surgery and if someone were to assume that (and I see it happen constantly in the comments and on Youtube) they clearly barely know anything about actual trans people other than what they hear from third parties or in movies. Not saying you made any of these assumptions just using what you said to bounce off and address anyone who does.

There's really not much more I can add to the position I've already laid out. If someone wants to undergo a sex-change surgery, that's their right. But if asked for my opinion, I will say that it is a mistake and self-destructive act to take a fully-functional body and replace the genitals with poorly functioning synthetics. While it is true that trans people denied surgery often commit suicide, those given the surgery still commit suicide in shockingly high numbers. The surgery itself is not what saves peoples lives, but therapeutic and medicinal treatment. You can get such a surgery. Nobody can or should stop you, but don't expect people to universally support it. Asking me to substitute my view of reality for yours and call a man a woman is like asking me to lie.

Well I wake up after sleeping in for too long thanks to a mild hangover, and oh boy what happened here? I don't think I can respond to all individual posts right now, but please continue discussion anyway as hey I put this thread in this board for a reason.

>Mild hangover

How unladylike.

It was a special occasion, was hanging out with my dad at his favorite Mexican restaurant to relax after a stressful work week. I'm a total lightweight, one mega sized strawberry flavored margarita is all I can handle.