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A trap is a feminine male who can fool people into thinking he's a woman, they're not necessarily trans, i.e. they're not taking hormones and mutilating their bodies to look like women, it's just how they naturally are. It makes sense that this thing has such a name.

A trap is something most people would not want to be caught in. Trap in anime was something like a guy who look like a lady, the viewers grew to like "her" and the snare is set. Before they know it, they who grew fond of a woman, turns out they grew fond of a guy. Most would go laughing and "holy shit wtf".

Then something called fetish happened and those guys cannot like a female character w/o a dick any more.

And by the way. "Traps" and "Trans" are very easily identified apart from each other. Trans identifies themselves as woman, most of the traps are not because it comes with the territory of being a classic trap (those character identifies as a assigned gender from birth). Traps put on the classic makeup and are very skillful at it and on the outer appearance alone looks like perfect, most trans on the other hand are still very identifiable by looks alone.

Also take note of this. "Traps" are older than anime itself. In Japanese classic traditional theatrical play, Kabuki. The actors are all men, yet there are female roles. And it was not some crappy half drag, it was perfect and masterfully done in both costume department and the act itself. How are those actors are able to act as a woman so perfectly you ask? It is exactly because they are MEN. They know what MEN want, what is a perfect woman in the eyes of men, what draws and allures them.

Transphobic? Offensive? Nope. Silly, yes. BTW, I do not have much respect for most trans, especially of tumblr culture origin for the most part. Those crappy half drags do not respect what they are, and what they want to be with those half-assed effort, beaten by classical actors who retain their identity perfectly yet did not lose themselves. So most of them turned into something like half ass abomination with skirts and tits and beards and look ugly as sin as a perfect final fuckyou from them to themselves. Some trans go all out, and their effort paid and they look almost perfectly like whatever they transpired to be. While I do not do not agree with their life choices (like anyone need anybody consent on their life choices btw), I respect the "effort" and that is the universal language everyone understands. Hardship and perseverance, not complain like a douchebag on tumblr on why people finds them fugly because of their half effort and cry.

All this "traps are gay/not gay" meme stopped being funny months ago, nobody cares and i personally never cared.

Personally, I do not care about this whole traps are gay debacle; but what pisses me off is that, first, you give a dictionary definition then made up your own definition and then frames the entire argument in it and claim that oppositions claim is falsified when you made that ass pull. Go jerk off and feel "euphoric" somewhere else, you might win some upboats on reddit or 'encouragement' from tumblr.

Yeah buddy, thing is being a trap has everything to do with looks not sexuality. They're still men and "identify" as such even if other people think they're girls.

I also use the word "mutilation" because that's how I see it. The whole transition process has always been something I found gruesome, no matter how many arguments I hear I will never understand why someone would willingly go through with it. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

"If such people could step out of the page and be real what else would they be?"

probably thailandese prostitutes just trying to earn their next meal, stop trying to absorve them into your cult.

On another note there is possibly valid counter argument.

The word trap is not used in a pejoritive way anymore so it is ok

That is possible that trap is a slang for trans* and that since it is not meant to be offensive. This gets into a debate about which is more essential to communication the point of view of the speaker or the audience.

The way out of this mess is to use the word Trap only in certain circumstances and not to refer to a whole class of people. If someone IRL is trans and calls themself a trap use it. If a character is called a trap in the official English translation of a manga or anime use it. Outside of those kinds of context it is simply stating a position about real life transwomen who pass and convince as if they do it to fool you.

There is a good reason for this issue Consider the violent deaths of transwomen accused rightly or wrongly of trapping men.

*Again, the long standing dictionary definition establishes that trap => trans. One may say as above they don't have surgery to feminize their looks or take hormones …. how would we know. 95% of Anime they appear in we wouldn't know about their medical history they are side characters.

James Blunt

“If such people could step out of the page and be real what else would they be?”
probably thailandese prostitutes just trying to earn their next meal

Probably. I am a part time college prof working 90 hours a week. If I could just loose the weight I'd go back to working as an escort. The clients were more respectful.

Actually plebs while you all have decent points, you're also all completely wrong.

1) Whether "Traps" can be considered trans or not, it actually depends on the character. Some are merely crossdressers, but rarely, there is a character who implies through subtext they are actually gender dysphoric. Treat it on a case-by-case basis. See: Rui from Gatchaman Crowds, implied to really want to be seen as a woman, as opposed to Astolfo from Fate who just dresses feminine. Take each character as their own case, not beholden to one all-defining label.

2) The word "trap" is generally positive, affectionate, and is (generally) not used to refer to transpeople. The LGBT community should take it as a positive move that anime fandom loves this character type and uses the term affectionately.

3) However compromise must work both ways. Anime fans must recognise that the word "trap" carries negative connotations and they should move away from it. Trans people find it hurtful because it reduces their condition to "faker/nisemono da!" and such thinking is a reason there has been violence against them in the past. It's honestly a completely unneeded word because we have the pre-existing words "crossdresser" and "transvestite" which mean the same but do not carry the negatively-loaded connotations.

tl;dr kiss and make up because you all have a point, but you also need to respect and understand each other.

But are they gay tho?

Traps and Transseuxals are by definition different. There may be some overlap here and there but they are not the same thing. This whole argument over the word Trap started from easily offended people not getting the joke. People who use the word Trap to refer to transsexuals are straight up wrong, incorrect, mistaken, and should be called out for it. It's like people who think Transvestites are Transsexuals, Trannies, by the way, are way closer to Traps than Trans people are.

By using the word "transphobic", you are trying to gain power over others by labeling and guilt tripping them. It's a pseudoscientific term that has no use in serious discussion. It's convenient, sure, but only as a blatant, weak attempt to silence any criticism that people might have over trans related issues.

trap =/= trans

Seriously, where are you people getting this idea that they are the same? The idea that they are the same is borderline bigoted. Whats next? Anyone who wears "women's" clothing is trans?

Assuming a person must be transitioning based on how they dress is trapphobic

Sorry but the dictionary disagrees with anyone saying that "traps" are not trans.

Black graphic T. If you saw someone dressed as a woman convincingly and she was honest about her medical history in your mind they are not trans. That's really messed up.

To the above who said transsexuals and transgender are different. Yes. Transsexual is a subset of transgender. Traps if the were real would fall somewhere or the other on the transgender specturm.

In Japanese the term is otokonoko which does not translate to trap but to transgender (and some Japanese transsexuals who are post op call themselves otokonoko too in which case it means transsexual.

Traps more heavily represent a fantasy of Androgyny and Bisexuality than they do transgender, even if some of these characters can be icons for real life trans people. But that's the point, while fantasy is subjective it also acts as a sleeper agent that slowly builds tolerance in people who might of otherwise been shocked from a first exposure to an androgynous or transgender person. So there is no way Traps can breed or even be represented as Transphobia.

To further push my point that Traps are hardly just Transgenders. Here's a list of all the trap characters that immediately come to mind, and their reasons for becoming "traps";

• Poison from Final Fight, and Haruhi's Dad from Ouran Host Club are trans in a real world sense.
• Ruka from Steins Gate, and Jun from Happiness are definitely trans but resolve that with time shenanigans or magic.
• Bridget from Guilty Gear and Nagisa from Assassination Classroom were brought up as girls.
• Maria from Maria Holic and Mizuho from Otoboku crossdress to attend an all-girl school.
• Hime from Himegoto does it because he's being extorted.
• Chihiro from Danganronpa started crossdressing to better fit with his own femminine appearance as a means to stop being bullied.
• Ritsu from Fruits Basket crossdressed out of an anxiety disorder.
• On the flipside, Souta from Working did it to help with somebody elses anxiety disorder, albeit for only a short time.
• Astolfo's powers of "Sanity Evaporation" in Fate erased his own perception of Gender Norms.
• Hasuta from Nyaruko San is more born from the Japanese's misunderstanding of the distinction between Gay and Transgender people.
• And Hideyoshi from Baka no Test has the Onnagata role thrust upon him whether he liked it or not.

So calling Traps a Transphobic term is ridiculous. At worst it would make people… Androgynous-phobic. I don't think there is a word for such a thing.

Now this is a good reply. Wheter or not a particular character would be transgnder depends on the plot In your list above only one of those is not trans, Hime Arikawa from Himegoto is doing it because he was forced (Although there are points in the anime where it seems voluntary.) Contrast that with how His brother/sister cross dresses without any force whatsoever.

As for the idea all the rest of those people are trans by the definiton given in the dictionary. If you violate gender norms then you fall under the broad umbrella of transgender.

Yes even a male identified but bigender acting person like Hideyoshi. Again immagine if someone like Hideyoshi was real and stepped off the page. What would they be?

I think part of the problem is many people think that trans/ transgender is identically the same thing as transsexual. While transgender includes every kind of gender non-conformity. It is clear to the blind a biological male who of their own accord dresses as a female on a regular basis is gender non-conforming and therefore trans.

Ergo calling them traps is a transphobic act.

Don't worry though finding actual trans women attractive does not make you gay. I'd argue it's a bit more gay to be attracted to someone ID'ing as a male but dressing as a woman. I mean what is it all about wanting to get sexy with someone who has IT but not being a bit hairy dude?

Not directed towards anyone specific:

Anyway. Here are some IRL examples to enjoy and reflect on what source matterial the Manga artist are working from.

BE Asia "10 Transgender celebrities in Asia"

The above are what the people who some of you are trying to argue are not/ would not be trans would be if they were somehow made real. Including that they don't subscribe to the western transgender/transsexual feminine essence, trapped in a mans body, narrative pedaled by white (usually well off) trans SJW's. Which if that is all you've ever heard no wonder folks thing we are crazy.

Edited to add

A Shout Out to Serious Jones for a really thoughtful comment. Exactly. You can have your word to use but you have to select when, and where, and how and who with to use it.

Denying the reality of who Otokonoko "traps" are meant to represent in anime would be like saying …. IDK Goku and the other DragonBall characters don't represent martial artist because they are able to fly… or something. It's not all going to be like real life … but we know the kind of person he'd be… like Bruce Lee or something.

The critical flaw in your argument is that you claim that gender non-conformance makes one transgender. To put it bluntly, it doesn't.

For example, having no sense of gender norms, and thus dressing in feminine clothing, but still identifying as male, means the character is only gender non-conforming.

"I don't care what you choose to identify as or your reasons for doing so, your transgender because I said so!"

What if a cis male is sexually attracted to "traps"? Does that make him transphobic op? If you answer yes then that would be like saying that a guy that is sexually attracted to men is homophobic.

People are so weak this days, like such a simple meme as "traps" can get you into such a frenzy.

You know what pisses me off? People who say they own this site despite the fact that they don't obey the rules. You don't own this site, you don't represent the entire community, and even if you did you'd be a bad owner given you're kinda breaking the rules.

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Speaking of which, if any of you in this thread keep this behaviour up, the mods will lock this thread considering how off-topic and non-serious this has went. Either follow the debate etiquette or don't. That's why we have Riff Raff here.

crossdressing =/= trans. I personally am annoyed by transphobia [not trans myself, but I have many transgender friends], but traps are literally just crossdressing porn, and for that matter 'trap' usually refers to a drawing, not a real fucking person.

Of course being attracted to trans characters, I from now on refuse to call them "traps" is not transphobic. Who ever said that?

@ Spaghetto, Please read the dictionary definition I cited. That is not a personal opinion. In fact I can go one stronger. The DSM "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders defines what transgender means. Compare your favorite traps to this list of criteria and tell me they each don't fit at least two. Remember in the below they don't need to fit all of them just two.

I have bolded the ones that I think apply without question to almost any "trap" you can think of.

Gender Dysphoria (in Adolescents or Adults)**

A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2* or more of the following indicators: [2, 3, 4]**

1. a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]

2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

6. a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or with a significantly increased risk of suffering, such as distress or disability**

Subtypes

With a disorder of sex development [14]

Without a disorder of sex development

See also: [15, 16, 19]

End Quote

My personal opinions. Consider two examples:

Hideyoshi who it is often said has the gender "hideyoshi" that clearly meets one of the criteria. He also has a strong incongruence between the gender he expresses constantly and his body. Yet he identifies as a boy. Clinically he has gender dysphoria even while not "wanting to be or believing he is a girl".

On the other extreme

Jun Watarase, Uhm ticks all of those boxes and even had a magical sex change and was thanking God for it. That is the answer to the childish prayers of every transwoman (almost all of us recall having prayed as a kid to wakeup and somehow be a girl.) You can't argue that one.

In the middle characters like Hibari of "Stop! Hibari Kun" and Ana Gram of "Phi Brain". Both of them dress, act and live as women but like Jun they will use the fact that they are biologically male if it suits them … like in choosing to bathe with the men.

Now can we move on to whether or not the word trap itself is transphobic? What is the point in continuing to deny that those characters represent who they clearly represent? Why is it so crucial to so many people that "traps" not be transgender? I really want to know.

"Now can we move on to whether or not the word trap itself is transphobic? What is the point in continuing to deny that those characters represent who they clearly represent? Why is it so crucial to so many people that “traps” not be transgender? I really want to know."

Because adding political nonsense where there is none is usually done for moral guardians to regulate everything, so if they are not considered transgender (which I don't think they are anyway) we can keep them away from anime in general.

Trap is only as transphobic as you want it to be. It's the same with any other word really. If you choose to be offended by it, than it's transphobic, if not, than it ain't.

Why would anyone feel like a woman or man when they can just think themselves as a human.

"Of course being attracted to trans characters, I from now on refuse to call them 'traps' is not transphobic. Who ever said that?"
Then why are you kink shaming people who are sexually attracted to them?

That'd be like saying that you support gay marriage but then say that guys who look at porn of other guys is abhorrent behavior. At the end of the day you can't spell "sexuality" without the word "sex".

I am not shaming people for being attracted to trans characters. There is nothing to be ashamed of in being attracted to transwomen/crossdressers/draqueens or trans anime characters.

This is an interesting question and it is at the heart of the matter. You think it would be shameful to be attracted to even a character that meets every definition of a transgender woman let alone a real life transwoman?

Why would I shame people for liking someone like myself?

Stating that a word or is offensive to a particular community is not political it is about politeness.

Right now the conversation has been about the mere definition of transgender. A conversation where, inspite of my citing the dictionary… and then the technical definition used by the American Psychological Association, which shows clearly 99% of characters being called "traps" meet the definition.

These characters are from the same culture where this Satsuki a real life Otokonoko lit translation "male daughter", the word used in Japanese for both the anime characters and for everyone from a crossdresser to a full blown transsexual, talks about how not trans ready the hospitals in Japan can be.

“Otoko no ko” Satsuki tells her story, explains how Japan’s hospitals aren’t trans-ready You can read her blog if you know Japanese

As a matter of fact if we look at the google translate of it.

"Gender: MtF (male → female)
Blood type: type A
Your location: Aichi-ken
Self Introduction: Gender identity disorder (GID). Born as a boy, I feel a sense of incongruity in my own sex from a young age."

Based on what I have read many of you would think because she says "born as a boy" that means she's not trans. That is all any of the characters in anime you all love say about themselves.

Now, there is a Japanese transwoman pretty much telling you exactly what I have been saying. Can we move on to the much more interesting conversation.

Given that "trap" refers to transgender people, is that an offensive term in general why and why not.

Remember it is established that they are transgender. Tell me a transwoman why being called a trap should not be offensive.

(You'll just have to take my word for it that this applies to me. Let just say I am able to change and shower in the womans locker room and no one seems to notice anything. Yet if I gave you my name you could find my picture online.)

"Why would I shame people for liking someone like myself?"
You're making us transgender look like assholes right now.
<post-op

>Grabs the dictionary definition of trans
>Extends it to traps through arbitrary standards

Your entire point here runs down to "liking feminine things is a trans red flag because the dictionary". Dang sis, I guess boys really shouldn't like dolls.

The dictionary is a limited tool when you're discussing terminology for overlapping terms. Point in case, here's the Merriam definition for homosexual:

1 :of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex a homosexual man was involved in a homosexual relationship
2 :of, relating to, or involving sexual activity between persons of the same sex homosexual acts

According to your logic, Bisexuals are now Homosexual since they check the dictionary checkboxes.

Different terms can have overlap in some areas but still cover different groups because they lack overlap in other areas, which is exactly why they became different terms to begin with.

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Serious Jones has good points so I'm gonna agree with him here, can't really describe it better.

tl;dr kiss and make up because you all have a point, but you also need to respect and understand each other.

Gay.

Saying a cartoon character is a trap in a playful manor doesn't even compare to some of the disgusting shit some people say online about trans people

This is the same kind of false equivalency assigned to people who say nigga in a rap song is comparable to a boss or someone in a place of power calling someone a filthy nigger.

Love the screen name.

Last meme bender has a great and interesting point.

The answer to that is that members of a group can use a word that would otherwise be an insult. A black person saying Nigga works. Try doing that IRL if you are not black and … find out what happens.

It is the same with trap, tranny, shemale, any of those words used by a transgender person, or in certain restricted context can be OK. Outside those uses they can be a huge no no.

It's not my definition. If some of you don't like it write to the APA.

I am black and when people say nigga in front of me I really don't give a shit… I know some people do get offended.

Its almost like the persons personal experiences, context, and intent play into how a word is used

It irritates the fuck out of me when people go on long transphobic rants because their intent is to try and dehumanize/humiliate someone, the context is they want to be offensive and their personal experience is that they are not understanding of someone different from them or they are just straight up assholes

Saying this is trap porn this is shemale porn or this is trans porn all have the exact same context and intent they are just different words. Whether someone gets offended by that word is up to them and whether or not someone cares enough to police their words is up to that person.

You're also assuming a trans person will be automatically offended if they hear a word. If I had a trans friend who did get upset over me saying trap then it wouldn't personally bother me to stop saying it around them, other wise when I default to saying something or someone is a trap (usually an anime photo) its not me trying to fucking demonize a community of people, its just a catchy word.

Im sorry that word bothers you but I really don't think most people who use it are trying to be shitty and trying to police peoples words isn't going to help.

Wait. a trap doesn't even mean trans anyway, a trap is a guy who looks and dresses like a girl so well that most people can't tell.

So if anything that wouldn't even be offensive to trans girls that would be offensive to drag queens and cross dressers

No, you are confusing the words transgender and transsexual.

Transgender is an umbrella term for all gender variance. So even if we thought them just guys who Id as guys and have no clinical gender identity disorder they would be transgender.

Transsexual means having hormones and surgery in slang terms in the community we call both "trans". You can only know if someone is transgender or transsexual by asking them but you can know they are trans by looking at them. A guy dressed as a girl for any purpose who does that on a regular basis, for any purpose or motivation, is trans.

Those are both simple ways of saying what the dictionary and the Diagnostic manual of the American Psychological association say. According to the APA's DSM these characters would be diagnoseable with gender identity disorder.

So even if you don't think a given "trap" is a transsexual by wearing girls clothes all the time and trying to pass you can assume they are transgender.

Even the words used in Japanese to describe these characters are identical to the ones used for real life Japanese transgender people and those words do not translate to "trap".

But whatever if you guys want to miss out on meeting and getting along with a real life transwoman who has any self respect just keep calling us traps.

Just because a guy likes to crossdress and can pass as a girl, doesn't make him transgender.

I would know. Very well, actually. I know I'm not trans. I have no gender dysphoria. I still like crossdressing. I still love girly stuff. That doesn't make me trans.

I feel like you're seriously overestimating what the "requirements" of being trans are. And regardless, your personal feelings don't matter in this situation.

Ah grasshopper let a pre-op transwoman a like 3rd dan transperson enlighten you.

One can be transgender but not want a sex change. Having GID is one thing. Violating gender norms is another. Wearing clothes of the opposite gender for any reason makes one transgender in the broadest sens of the word.

That said, I take it that you cross dress occasionally you are living full time socially as a woman which is what the characters we are discussing do.

It is not just dressing for say Urushibara Ruka, who was dressing as a girl before she met Okabe and therefore doesn't do it just for Okabe or whatever. Ruka uses time travel to change sex because no operation will do. Plenty of transwomen never have the operation down below but live work, and love as women.

This is an example of such a person. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr6SXpdzMdc

That's not how words work. Ironically, you're doing the very thing you claim those you disagree with are doing. Can I not call the KKK racist or a neo-Nazi group anti-Semitic now?

Don't act like you know me. At no point, even when I crossdress, do I ever identify as a woman. That means I'm not transgender. I know there's plenty of transgender people who don't want a sex change. I'm not one of them.

Being trans, as far as I know, is a very serious thing. It's not something you can just decide overnight, and it's sure as hell not a label you can slap onto someone else because they meet a few criteria (that you set yourself, I might add). It's something that takes deep thought, a lot of it. And even if you decide yourself that you're trans, it's still a very good idea to get evaluated by a doctor. And this is everything I know from having a lot of trans friends.

Also, fictional characters don't help your argument. At all. They're fictional and in no way representative of traps or transgender people.

> Wearing clothes of the opposite gender for any reason makes one transgender in the broadest sens of the word.

I'm male and i'm wearing socks that are labeled as women's. Welp, guess i'm transgender.

Kneesocks or riot.

A little bit.

There are degrees of being transgender Consider for example

The Benjamin scale (1,2), this is an old fashioned scale devised by a doctor named Harry Benjamin for categorizing levels of transessxual from 0 – not at all to 6- very much so.

Group Type Name Kinsey scale Conversion operation?
1 I Transvestite (Pseudo) 0-6 Not considered in reality
1 II Transvestite (Fetishistic) 0-2 Rejected
1 III Transvestite (True) 0-2 Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive
2 IV Transsexual (Nonsurgical) 1-4 Attractive but not requested or attraction not admitted
3 V Transsexual (Moderate intensity) 4-6 Requested, usually indicated
3 VI Transsexual (High intensity) 6 Urgently requested and usually attained; indicated

By the by the Kinsey scale rates the degree of homosexuality from 0 – straight as an arrow, to 6 – exclusively homosexual.

According to this it is quite possible to be not at all gay, and enjoy dressing up in female clothes YET still be one form of transgender.

Remember Transgender is not the same as Transsexual.

That said most of the characters that are so-called "traps" would be a IV to VI on that scale. Transsexual but not necessarily having the surgery. That's right it is possible to be transsexual and not have any genital surgery.

I actually like a this discussion and anyone participating with an open mind will find many of their myths busted.

Footnotes:

1.) Gender Psychology, a site by a transgender psychologist (not me) about this subject of various grades and shades of transgender. It is not all or nothing.

2.)Wikipedia: Benjamin Scale

The very wikipedia link you provided said the scale was outdated and doesn't reflect modern views of sexuality. Since when is sexual arousal and sexual orientation the same thing?

I am not acting like I know you. I am applying a definition of a word found in many authoratiative sources.

Are you the one who said you dress and live as a woman 100% of the time but are male. That is litterally the picture of what being trangender MTF is. Get this in your head transgender is not the same as transsexual. The fact you confuse the two makes me doubt you are at all knowledgeable since in order to live and work from your head hits the pillow to your head hits the pillow 24 hours latter as a woman takes resources. To do what you claim is possible and not be trans… would take the resources and knowledge of those who are…

You would at least need electrolysis to remove unwanted hair and guess what…. those folks work a lot on trans women.

In short, if you were really doing what you seem to be saying you do you would know better.

What the fuck, at no point did I ever say I "lived as a woman". I crossdress. I don't live as a woman. I don't wear the clothes to pretend I'm a woman. I wear them because they're cute, and they make me feel cute. Not because they make me feel like a woman.

I'm in the process of getting a "trap" body, again not because I'm transgender, or because I want to feel like a girl, but because it's cute. It's purely aesthetics. I am very comfortable in my own skin, so don't you tell me what I do and don't know, or how I actually feel accord to YOUR criteria.