Forums / Maintenance / Report Problems

Overviewing the rules and recent activity involving certain galleries and among certain groups of new users, I've been wondering if we ought to make adjustments to the rules so as to discourage/punish attempts to abuse good faith on this site. What I mean by that is people trying to use loopholes in an attempt to circumvent rules, mostly for the sake of low-effort trolling or other uses of the site not conducive to the study and archival of internet culture.

The problem of course, lies with trying to discern troll posts from sincere posts. We cannot afford to discredit ourselves by simply removing content we find to be in distaste: It has been brought up multiple times, and with due credit, that this site is for the archival of all memes – not just memes we like. However, I reiterate that there are holes in the system that may allow (and have allowed) users to exploit it specifically and explicitly to abuse the site and post in bad faith. We'll start with a recent example: A rule against spam has gotten users like albinorhino and members of his discord banned in the recent soyjak spam debacle.

It's obvious that a rule is being broken when there's 100 new images in the space of an hour all from one user, many of which being reposts or dupes. However, what if, say ten new users uploaded just five images apiece? And they uploaded them five hours apart? Why, that's not spam at all, is it? Wink wink, nudge nudge.

On another note, there's also the issue of agenda pushing. many memes have a political overtone to them, especially recent memes in the wake of a grueling election year, and honestly, a grueling year in general. While this is not a political forum in and of itself, we archive many political memes because they are just that – memes. Whether we agree with them or not, they belong here, for recordkeeping if nothing else. However, the issue of good faith is brought to the forefront yet again when any particularly bipartisan meme, is posted with increased frequency, or if the poster in question practically or literally posts nothing but said meme. It doesn't take a PhD in political science to deduce that, perhaps, instead of archival purposes, the user is hoping to use the platform as their own personal soapbox.

The point is, we need to maintain this site as one purposed for archival, not for political soapboxing, trolling, or gang-warring. This site is property of no political party, no discord/IRC cabal, no one but the administrators of the site proper and the purpose expressed in the name.

How is it spam if the images are related to the article? Are the images off-topic?

we ought to make adjustments to the rules so as to discourage/punish attempts to abuse good faith on this site.

On a perfect site, you'd be 100% right. Unfortunately, we 'aint that. The current rules are less about determining when a user is a problem, and more about what excuse we have to get rid of them. The mod team knows when it wants something gone (which is why the soyjak posters are now immediately banned).

It's obvious that a rule is being broken when there's 100 new images in the space of an hour all from one user, many of which being reposts or dupes.

Yes and no. Uploading hundreds of soyjaks to the soyjak gallery is, in theory, not against the rules. We make stipulations that the images be properly tagged, and reject "low effort" posts like 5 second MS paint jobs, but the uploaders actually agreed to this. The current state of the soyjak gallery is, by the rules, filled with completely valid posts, properly tagged, and (relatively) devoid of repetitive content. The rule we consider being broken is actually the one against alt accounts and ban evasion. If we think it's the the usual guys (which it always is), we ban. There is no rule that says "after you cover a meme to this extent, anything past it is spammy," nor should there be. We've got the server space for it anyways; more is better.

I understand that the more vocal users against the /qa/ "raid" or whatever think the jannies mods are handling this too lightly, so I'm going to offer you a sanity check: let's just take the criteria you've outlined above and apply it to some other "problematic" galleries. To recap, we hate:

• Large quantities of "low effort" uploads…
• From the same user(s)…
• That fail to document anything notable…
• And represent the uploader's personal interests or motivations.

A few galleries come to mind.

First let's just tackle the mountain of porn that gets uploaded every damn day. The vast majority are from the same handful of uploaders who do everything in their power to make sure the images just fit within the rules. If we're going to talk about spammy uploader "cabals" and loophole abuse, the wojak stuff is small game. But hey, maybe horny faith isn't bad faith.

We've also got dozens of clips from every My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic episode that has ever aired, plus several tens of thousands of fanart posts. This ticks all our boxes and is probably "spammy" by most standards, but with the benefit of a decade of hindsight, not an issue. The users that couldn't stand seeing any more ponies on the site have presumably moved on to complain about something else.

Okay but maybe fandom and fanart doesn't qualify as "political soapboxing". We can try a closer example, like the things I don't like memes, which conveniently collects all the other sub-entries. Or their spiritual successors (and precurosors the the wojak/soyjak) like the virgin vs chad or brainlet or everything pepe. We've got a bit more diversity in the uploader, but it's still just truckloads of ms paints coming in from imageboards.

We could also take the other oft-complained about galleries. How many TikTok memes do we need uploaded every day. Is it still spam if done by KYM staff, and is it a problem? (Yes and no. Fuck admins btw desu). Clearly this amount of content is pure spam and we should bar it from the site. Or maybe KYM is too darn mean and needs to cover someone other than Trump.

Rewinding further, we find the pleasant era of controversy where the majority of uploads were just problematic posts or exposition. Images of text, and little more. We considered shutting it down several times, honestly, but for every voice complaining that we had too much, we had someone else to keep it going. We could keep at this, picking on galleries like monster girls or RWBY or the elections when they are at their weakest (and most annoying to the users), but the point is that user sentiment is not a metric for how useful a gallery is. It never has been. The complaints of the users has taken the form of user bans, but it won't change how we fundamentally deal with image galleries. Please stop asking.

The point is, we need to maintain this site as one purposed for archival, not for political soapboxing, trolling, or gang-warring. This site is property of no political party, no discord/IRC cabal, no one but the administrators of the site proper and the purpose expressed in the name.

I respect this take. KYM fulfills a niche on the internet that nobody else does – a WIkipedia for memes. The real kings are the users who remember this and keep it going.

Unfortunately we're owned by an entertainment and comedy brand and an "Israeli media tycoon.":
https://il.linkedin.com/in/jacobnizri We cover political memes on a basis of "whoever emails the staff first" and have 0 obligation to check facts, present information fairly, or prioritize truth and neutrality over clicks. It's not actually our business who gets to use the site as an opinion platform, which is why we have such a thriving pundit population. KYM allows people to upload shit nobody else cares about, and it allows users to complain that there are too many uploads that nobody cares about. It's the circle of life.

ⓘ This response brought to you by the Discord/IRC cabal.

That's the tricky part. A lot of it comes with intent, and often times, with the content provided. As stated before, we've had obvious problems with raid groups flooding the gallery with low-effort and sometimes reposted content in an obvious effort to troll. That's the way many are learning to do it after previous raiding episodes. Don't flat out spam, but find ways to get low-effort, unnoteworthy content made to annoy into the gallery. I think the hallmark signs to look for are these:

-the content on question is uploaded simultaneously from several users
-Most of those users are new, or have joined previously but have seen zero activity until now
-the content expresses a direct targeted attack against a person or persons (already a blatant rule violation)
-the content is made specifically with intent to cause inflammatory dialogue
-the submitter is inflammatory, unable to conduct civilized conversation about their content
-the submitter doesn't respond to any queries at all (burner account)
-the submitter only ever submits this content

There could be more, but that's what I can get right off the top of my head.

Just off the cuff here, let me get these before we continue discussing a non-reality.

• the content on question is uploaded simultaneously from several users
  Several users uploading the same content is less indicative of spam, wheras a single user single-handedly sustaining a gallery is more suspect.

• Most of those users are new, or have joined previously but have seen zero activity until now
  Users being brand new is factored into how likely mods are to issue an immediate ban vs warnings, which leads to the next points…

• the content expresses a direct targeted attack against a person or persons (already a blatant rule violation)
  Personal attacks are immediately removed and punished accordingly. Key word being personal. The whole schema of the wojak or poljak/soyjak/chad/chud/cuck thing is that they are argumentative strawman memes; a false representation of someone else. Users falling into a soyjak category for complaining about soyjaks doesn't make the posts inherently personal.

• the content is made specifically with intent to cause inflammatory dialogue
  "Intent to stir up shit" isn't a rule-breaker, doubly so when it's questionable if the uploads aggravate users for stupid reasons. We don't engage in un-baiting comments.

• the submitter doesn't respond to any queries at all (burner account)
  This isn't a social network, and I honestly encourage users to not use it as one. Elaborate friend networks, wall posting, and PM chains are the hallmarks of our most dysfunctional user communities. Go outside.

• the submitter only ever submits this content
  Porn uploaders. The porn guys. Those ones. The guys. You know 'em.

Think about how often you see user complaints along the lines of "Ugh! another controversy" or "Stop with the Tik Tok memes".

These articles are created so frequently that they sometimes overshadow the funny may-mays that users want to see. I've seen users call these articles "spam".

And by your logic, they'd have a point. They're usually posted by the same people. Making Tik Tok article after Tik Tok article. Controversy after controversy.

But the complaints are invalid. These articles aren't spam because they are appropriate to what's going on on the internet. It doesn't matter if there's an overwhelming surplus of Tik Tok memes.

Turn it around, same logic applies. The images people upload are valid examples of the meme. They show spread.

Doeoeod, while I appreciate the comprehensive reply, the sarcasm and, yes, lack of good faith apparent in your post is as palpable as it is frankly distasteful. it also, despite its exhaustive efforts at elucidating the situation on KYM's status and moderation efforts, fails to properly interpret the main point of my entire post: the site's use should be that of archival. In bringing up many other things, like the porn spam, pony spam that's ten years too late to bring up, theKnowYourFanart issue we've been having (an issue that I will admit to having contributed to in the past, even recently), all of it were brought up as if it were something I either defended, hadn't thought of, or as something that wouldn't fall into the criteria provided by the OP.

I have absolutely no love for the porn spammers, especially considering how one of our most notorious trolls finally caught the hammer when they started posting porn (rest in piss, pooch). You bring up the soyjak spam I mentioned and reminded me that the porn problem is bigger, slapping me on the wrist I suppose for failing to realize that it's a bigger problem. Of course I know it's a bloody bigger problem. It's a far more extreme violation of the rules, drives away advertisers and therefore site revenue, and floods the gallery with disgusting trash. So with all this in mind, why in the world would I bring it up? Who wouldn't know it's a problem? Who wouldn't realize that the mods are doing everything they can to get it taken care of? Complaining about the porn spammers would be the textbook definition of pointless: everyone already knows it's a problem so there's no use pointing it out, everyone knows that staff is handling it so there's no use harping at staff to clean it up. Everyone knows it's unhealthy for the site so there's no use offering to serve as lawyer for the plaintiff when the offending party has already been found guilty in the deposition. I am not the idiot you think I am that isn't aware of the porn problem, so please do not indulge the temptation to patronize me with little jabs like "But hey, maybe horny faith isn't bad faith."

And the ponies? Yeah I was here for that. Wasn't registered at the time, but I remember it flooding this site, especially when we were merged with cheezburger. Not that it would've tinted my glasses any differently, because I remember when they first hit /co/ and /b/ with all the insane shitflinging that entailed, but I digress. Yes, the pony spam was a problem, but it's ten years behind us, so why should I bring it up unless it resurges again? If anything, our failure to bridle the issue, if you will, serves as a textbook example of what problems we should be looking out for and how we ought to deal with them in the future. Yes, it's ten years too late, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a problem, nor that there couldn't be any similar problems in the future that we ought to handle differently.

You mention the "things I don't like" memes and their various templates, as well as tiktok and the various pepe/wojack derivatives. That boils down into the whole other issue of "how noteworthy must something become before it can qualify as a meme and therefore, documentation on this site?" While it is another issue, it still bears mentioning on this topic because if we ever were to figure out what such a metric could be that could delineate meme from non-meme, how many of these would make it past the filter? How many of the tiktok memes actually have widespread use and how many are just a borderline inside joke among a group of high-schoolers, owing their thousands of hits to mostly that of their own school (my school for example, had 3600 kids in all)? Does that bear mentioning in the same forum that catalogues internet phenomena which have attracted millions of viewers from around the world? You tell me.

(By the way, I find it interesting how you linkfied the thread highlighting a problem with the site's growing toxicity and how it's driving away users and cleverly quote it as basically people saying "KYM is too darn mean" as if you either look down at their very accurate conclusion, or just prefer for things to be toxic and unfun, but hey, that's neither here nor there.)

All that said, I think the most important thing you said, and the one most indicative of your failure to understand what it is I'm trying to highlight is this:

"user sentiment is not a metric for how useful a gallery is."

I never said it was.

My issue never, at any point centered around user sentiment. Users can have all the sentiment they want, be it good, bad, praise, scorn, whatever; it should have no bearing on the content shared on KYM. Like I said, they don't own this site. The entire point of my post was further refining the process of qualifying content. not filtering content to shield sensitive little eyes, not getting rid of content which we simply find annoying (I mean, I literally said: "We cannot afford to discredit ourselves by simply removing content we find to be in distaste"). When I bring up "bad faith" I mean when people make entries or submit media for purposes other than archival, and which purposes do not come from any sense of goodwill. If you misinterpreted that as "user sentiment dictating the use of this site" then consider the bullet points the the first half of your post were exactly what I was talking about almost to the letter, and we could've stopped there. We shouldn't be tolerating low-effort submissions. We shouldn't be tolerating repeat offenders. We shouldn't waste time documenting things that are not notable, and of course, we shouldn't let people use this site for any personal reasons. That, in fact was the entire crux of what I was trying to say.

I understand that in a perfect world, memes like this wouldn't exist, and that this is not a perfect world, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in our cataloguing process. That doesn't mean that every issue thrown your way is a complaint from some sensitive user who says you should remove it because it hurt their widdle feewings. I get that, as a moderator, you get dozens of these little pukes thrown your way every other day. I get that it's frustrating to hear time and time again of people whining about this or that meme needing to be removed because they didn't like it, but you need to realize that that is what is not happening here. Perhaps it's the fact that I brought up soyjak and the /qa/ raid group that set off some sort of alarm that screamed "DANGER, CRYBABY ALERT" because god knows how many people have whined about it already. That however does not excuse a very blatant misinterpretation of my words and indicting me of ignorance on topics I am not only fully aware of, but had in mind while typing the OP in the first place.

I guess that's what frustrates me the most; you can see that I want this site to fulfill its niche as best as it can, and you agree, which is good. You clearly understand that using this site for personal use or for trolling is utter horseshit, and I'm glad you recognize that and that the staff are doing things to help prevent it. Which makes it all the more frustrating when you paint me as a by-the-numbers "stop posting things I don't like!" pisser and fail to understand that all I want is a further introspection on quality control in what is essentially the only archive of its kind.

+1 lock undertale gallery

It's obvious that a rule is being broken when there's 100 new images in the space of an hour all from one user, many of which being reposts or dupes. However, what if, say ten new users uploaded just five images apiece? And they uploaded them five hours apart? Why, that's not spam at all, is it? Wink wink, nudge nudge.

There is a dupe check active in the background. It's not perfect, but good enough to prevent dupes in most cases.

Banning is a gut feeling case most of the time. Do they tick several boxes we are familiar with from previously banned users? If so, ban; even if their activity appears fine at a glance to stay under the radar.

But we'll never ban wojaks just for being wojaks. Just as we'll never ban other dislike memes. This is non-negotiable. Chipmunk Head was a good meme.

These articles are created so frequently that they sometimes overshadow the funny may-mays that users want to see. I've seen users call these articles "spam".

Adding to this: Contributing is free. Nothing is more annoying than that one guy who complains about entries being long overdue.

Anyone can make meme entries, anyone can upload examples. Hate a TikTok entry? Create a meme entry. Hate certain uploads? Drown them out with better stuff. Be the change you want to see.

"The images people upload are valid examples of the meme. They show spread."
Not always, spookyturtle. What about the possibility that it's either one person, or one relatively small group of people? You underestimate the powers of autism that be. Spite and a desperate hunger for cheap lulz can drive a man to do the unthinkable, or in this case, the insensible.

Have you ever seen How to Train Your Dragon? Do you know who Astrid is?
Do you know where this is going?

Refer to my previous post of uploaders ticking several boxes of previously banned users.

Wojaks? Fine. Alting and ban bypassing to upload them? Not fine.

No rule was ever changed. This has always been the case.

I'm not a scalie tyvm.

"Wojaks? Fine. Alting and ban bypassing to upload them? Not fine."
Good. That is exactly what I'm talking about, at least in part.

"I'm not a scalie tyvm"
dunno what that has to do with anything, but if it refers to me bringing up HTTYD, then I'll just say this:
Please stay ignorant. For your own sake, keep your eyes clean.
In the event that you do however, know what I'm talking about, then you know exactly what I mean when i say that lots of pictures do not always mean there is significant spread, and that it can very well be the product of either a small coordinated group, or in this case, one very, very disturbed person with a very specific vendetta.

Something tells that the /qa/utists visiting KYM every day to get their kicks will have more material from this thread alone than from the actual Soyjak spam being discussed here.

Oh boy! BRB making a thread now.

Not to riffraff this topic, I guess it has merit to discuss if you care about KYM although I care even less than the mods. At least I can address this from my point of view:

"the submitter doesn't respond to any queries at all (burner account)"

"This isn't a social network, and I honestly encourage users to not use it as one. Elaborate friend networks, wall posting, and PM chains are the hallmarks of our most dysfunctional user communities. Go outside."

So these are two completely unrelated things.

I mostly use KYM as a source of maymay images, also old articles for historical knowledge about the classics. No idea why every single fad needs an article btw. Once in a while I check comments/forums and if it seems like I've got something worth saying, I log in and say it. If you send me a message, I'm not going to see it until the next time I log in, but I'd still respond then. If you ask someone "dude wtf could you not", dude ignores you and keeps posting the same things, that's a mark of a jackass that could be worth kicking out.

OTOH I agree that super active KYMers should holy shit go outside. The userbase is kinda shit, sorry to put it this way but that's how I feel. That's no thanks to moderation either, when you look at comments/forums it's very different from what you'd expect from the rules. "Be friendly." More like rules 8 and 9. Yeah, it's an admission of reality (shit reality) that rules are used as excuses.

Whatever grass you're on, don't od on it.

Whatever grass you're on, don't od on it.

>he doesn't know
Do you want to?

No.

good

Image gallery is only a secondary or even tertiary element of the site. If we had a guarantee that imgur or alternatives don't just disappear one day we might as well post relevant pictures there and not bother with image hosting here.
What I'm trying to say is that no sane man will browse KYM general gallery for the same reason they browse Reddit, 9gag whatever else, rather if they want a dose of a specific meme they would head to its article and then eventually browse its sub gallery. Average visitor won't find a single Wojak unless he actually looks for them.
Basically bad faith spammers and such don't affect site's bottom line as much as you think they do.

One day when a person with Wojak fetish eventually comes to this site, he will lose gallons of cum for the years to come and through ad revenue, drive our economy for even longer.

Seeing as this thread is no longer (nor was it ever) about KYM policy, and is just "Wojak spam bad", we're locking it and redirecting you to the designated complaining thread. You'll find more like-minded users there, and there are stricter rules in place on the Serious Debate™ forum, so nobody can hurt your feelings.

Rest assured that the moderation team is taking this "issue" seriously, even if we don't take you seriously.