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Fine, FINE…I'm sad now

I hope your happy…no wait you can't because you are sad too.

[edit]

A renewed page has been acquired!

HUGS!

Let Pinchy make you happy!

inb4 edit saying Page Get!
Also, I told a hater "friend" I'm a brony on Friday, today he told a good long-standing friend…. he couldn't give a f*** no matter how hard he tried. :D People are awesome sometimes.

I'm throwing in my vote for "Pony Thread IV: A New Hope" because its better than my idea and to annoy opspe.

opspe wrote:

@Muumi and Lolstaz: You guys should both be proud. You’re such artists, and I wish I had the talent you guys do.

I've actually had 2 posts on EqD dedicated to my work and in on PMV post as well. You don't need to be an artist to contribute.

Also
Muumi Wrote:

So, to put it shortly… I am your god now! Bring me your virgins!

Sigh Fine.

Drops Pants. Bends over

"Gently please :( "

But in all seriousness, if you need motivation to draw. I am still willing to pay for commissions (and not super long comics either, don't worry. :D )

GENTLECOLTS! TONIGHTS LATE NIGHT TOPIC IS…DRUM ROLL PLEASE!

WHY ARE BON BON AND LYRA CONSIDERED LESBIANS BUT DERPY AND CARROT TOP MERELY FRIENDS?

Begin discussion!

>>{►} INTRO MUSIC
It's 20:20 Pacific, 22:20 Central, 17:20 New Zealand Time, and 07:20 Arabian Time (I think?). You know what that means, that's right, it's time for another instalment of…

──THE LATE NIGHT DEBATE CLUB──

With tonight's hosts burning_phoenix, BSOD, and opspe.

Hooray! I like hugs!

I receive a bountiful amount of happy!

And finally, am I actually here in time for a late night debate?

Perhaps the first order of discussion will be the next thread name. Obviously we have some support for "A new hope" already but I'm open to further suggestion. How about we get some more ideas down?

Lastly, Scout. I don't care if you got inb4 my new page get announcement, I'm still announcing it anyway!

[edit]

I just noticed there is a line coming right out of my OC's hair. Looks like the border of another graphic managed to slip into the screen grab.

[edit2]

WHY ARE BON BON AND LYRA CONSIDERED LESBIANS BUT DERPY AND CARROT TOP MERELY FRIENDS?

Ok lets see. First of all I want to get some more background info on the Bon Bon and Lyra Fanon. For instance the time that the fanon interest in Lyra and Bon Bon originated.

I get the impression that the Lybon shipping was one of the first implied friendshipping in the fandom and being first meant being welcome. My idea is that by the time the fanon started pairing Derpy and CT together, the idea of another lesbian shipment was already tired.

Also by that time weren't people already convinced that Derpy had to be in a relationship with The Doctor? And that the shipping between The Doctor and Derpy is just more interesting than a shipping between Derpy and CT?

Of course this is speculation until someone can dig up more info on those four background ponies and when the Fandom started shipping them

@ Topic
Gingers have no souls therefore not worthy of being put together with a ditzy blonde. J/K

The new thread will be called "A New Hope" over my cold, dead corpse.

jklol, actually that was the first one that occurred to me too, but I just thought it was too obvious. And I'm still waiting for someone to come along saying that it should be "The Voyage Home" instead.

I feel like Lyra/Bonbon are much more established as a shipping couple than Derpy/Carrot Top. With Derpy, there's always her and the Doctor competing with her and Carrot Top, whereas it's just Lyra and Bonbon together (except apparently for that blasphemous image earlier of Bonbon/Carmel). So the fanon, in the case of Lyra/Bonbon, has centred more on their relationship and their lives together. Derpy/Carrot Top are more roommates than lovers.

In addition, Derpy’s character background is much more fully developed than either Lyra or Bonbon. The fanon includes her youth (the family parcel delivery business etc), and her job delivering mail, as well as her adventures with Dr. Whooves. Lyra and Bonbon are pretty much just…together. I haven’t seen too many indications of anything to the contrary. Their love just seemed so…natural, as they're always together.

@Late Night Discussion:

There is not much to Bon Bon's personality other than being Lyra's wife (I consider them legally married) and Lyra only has being human as the rest of her personality.

Derpy has the most complex personality of any fan character (besides Vinyl and Tavi debatably) and some people prefer to think of her as a single mother, it makes everything sadder and cuter. People also don't seem to like Carrot Top that much.

In my headcanon Lyra and Bon Bon are married and Derpy lives on her own with Dinky and is friends with Carrot Top. The whole Dr. Whoof thing is growing on me though.

Indeed that goes back to my previous mention of fan interest.

When it comes to Lyra and Bonbon, its their shipping that makes them interesting for the fandom. Lyra and BonBon are so far in the background that there isn't much else to say about them. The shipping is all we have to go on.

With Derpy, there is so much more we can do with her than just ship. Its at a point where people just arent interested in seeing yet another lesbian couple. Especially when Derpy can be utilized in fan fiction for much more interesting stories thanks to The Doctor

Cheerilee is the best sister. You better know that.

Goodnight everypony, Colgate is calling. I still need to buy that sapphire from Rarity. Remind me sometime.

Discussion?!

WHY ARE BON BON AND LYRA CONSIDERED LESBIANS BUT DERPY AND CARROT TOP MERELY FRIENDS?

There are probably some show-based origins to Lyra and Bon-Bon. I remember hearing that they were seen together a lot in the show in earlier episodes and more often than other pairings. There was also an older arc-based comic that explained them and how Lyra came to meet Bon-Bon. I don't know how popular that comic is, but just like a lot of other Pony fanon, all you need is one good story and one scene for a pairing of any nature to take off. And sometimes all you need is a good story.

For example, people like to ship Vinyl Scratch with Octavia even though they have never interacted on the show. But they are both musically-based ponies with neat designs with one of the best fanfics in the fandom in The Vinyl Scratch Tapes. From there you have art, tumblrs, and then it feeds on itself. And in a zealous fandom like Bronydom, it can grow into something much, much larger than it's origins.
 
 
As for Derpy and Carrot Top, it started with the derped eyes from the very first episode. From there, someone made this comic. Since it was so well-done and fell in-line with the tone of the show, it became popular. The interaction between the two in the comic may have been what people decided to take as the fanon dynamic between the two.

As for why this isn't portrayed as romantic, it may be the generally held belief that developmentally disabled people do not participate in romantic relationships with those who are not also disabled. Derpy tends to be portrayed as being "off" more than flat out mentally retarded, but there is something obviously different about her (in how she is portrayed in the fandom.) It may be that many artists and authors have that held belief subconsciously and never think that anything romantic would work.

Statistically, random distribution probably places an equal percentage of good or popular art/comics/fics and bad or less popular art/comics/fics into each camp. However, since most authors and artists feel a certain way, there is probably more good and popular art/comics/fics that have authors who subscribe to the notion that Derpy can't be romantically involved in a regular relationship than good or popular art/comics/fics that do not believe that about the developmentally disabled. So the popular fan work spreads throughout the fandom and becomes the generally accepted fanon.
 
 
 
I personally love the fanon friendship between Derpy and Carrot Top though. It makes me smile. I don't really care about Bon-Bon and Lyra much.

tl;dr
Derpy and Carrot Top likely came from the cute comic, the derped eyes from the very first episode, and perhaps some beliefs about the developmentally disabled.

Bon-Bon and Lyra likely came from the show placing the two together more often than other pairings.

Also, I don't really like a Star Wars titled thread. I'd prefer any of the other suggestions.

Well, that about covers that.

Next issue:

Apocryphal homosexuality (both gay and lesbian) seems to be somewhat more common in this subculture than in others. Do you think that this reflects some of the real-life gender identity issues that arise from grown men watching a little girls’ show? Or is it instead simply due to the limited number of males within the show?

I personally reflect what I want to see as reality in Equestria. Where any relationship is regarded as highly and as validly as a straight relationship. Also shipping of F/F or M/M just seems so much cuter to me.
If you are talking about bronies' sexuality I really don't know. I know we have higher numbers of gay people than the US national average but I would attribute that to a loving and tolerating community.

@Verbose
All my karma…
Oh how I've missed my Verbose (I put you as best non-mod user on the new survey, check the general thread tab).

Apocryphal homosexuality (both gay and lesbian) seems to be somewhat more common in this subculture than in others.

Do you mean Brony sexuality? Well before I get into that, do we have survey data that suggests this?

Something like the former. I think it deals with gender identity, but the fact that most of us are males plays into it as well.
 
 
First off, there was a survey on EqD that said that we are less heterosexual than the normal population. There are always concerns about lying in self-report, and there is more stigma against homosexuality in the mainstream, but I personally feel as if we're different in how we approach mainstream norms and values.

It seems like a lot of us are/were geeks. We like geeky things. We care about what browser we use whereas most guys don't care as long as they can see boobies. We watch ponies. That's plenty enough right there. As such, we probably didn't get along well with (or at least subscribed to) mainstream values and norms either because 1) we didn't have the physical/emotional/social capital to ascribe to the higher values for a "normal" male or other identities to which we are expected to submit or 2) we did not like the mainstream norms.

How people get cope and act is based much on our strengths and weaknesses. If you're not athletic, then you probably don't play sports or you're not very good at them. You don't received the social support from those who appreciate athleticism, so you choose to value other things. Black people (I do research here, it's generally true) tend to be more religious than white people. It's likely because many black people do not have a lot of the material or social capital that white people have. As such, black people may place their stock in something fair and available to all (Jesus loves all people and offers eternal salvation to all who believes in Him,) or they may submit to a counterculture where other things are valued (like respect, masculinity, money by any means necessary.)

I feel like many Bronies were already removed from the mainstream for various reasons. I feel like gender and sexual norms may be one of those things.
 
 
 
Not to say that this applies to Bronies, because I do think we're a bit more diverse than other Internet subcultures, but I think it was Platus who presented the article saying just how many convicted pedophiles were Trekkies. And it was some ridiculously high rate.

What is the correlation?

And, of course, Trekkies are known to be really geeky people. Go to a Star Trek convention and tell me that most aren't. I will set your pants on fire. Same thing for an anime convention.

…Same thing for the Brony meet-ups you see pictures of on Equestria Daily.
 
 
That isn't to say we're pedophiles. That is saying that our preferences and strengths dictate what we do. A lot of us end up doing stereotypically geeky stuff like online, playing D&D, or playing Skyram (what typo?), because that's what we like.
 
tl;dr
As such, I posit (with no hard evidence, mind you) that we differ a lot in our values of gender norms. One of the ways it shows up is in our art community.

@BSoD
Actually, there is. Let me find it. I'll edit it in…

@Connor
Yeah, a few users did. I was a little embarrassed by it, but honored too. Thanks.

I know we have higher numbers of gay people than the US national average but I would attribute that to a loving and tolerating community.

I think that it would be really difficult to get an accurate representation of the sexualities of the fans, so saying that we have a higher portion of gays than the national average does not strike me as something that is certain. But what I was driving at wasn't so much why gay people would write gay shipfics, it's why straight people would. A grown man watching this show might discover certain things about himself that he may not have known previously; things such as sentimentality and other "girly" emotions. I think some people would want to explore these new feelings, and they often do with sadfics and stuff.

Now drawing sexuality into the picture here may be a stretch, and therein lies the debate.

I feel like sometimes people who start feeling what they would previously have considered to be "girly" emotions may begin to question their sexuality, since it is rather…stereotypical for gay guys to be more emotional and in touch with their "feminine side" than straight guys. I think it might appeal to some to parallel their personal exploration in a fanfic, and sort of explore themselves by proxy, and I don't think this is at all limited to MLP. I just think that since it is a girls show, and that since men watch it, it just happens more frequently than with other things.

Sorry Verbose, I moved the post there. In response to your post: I agree that since we as bronies are in many ways separate from mainstream society (for a variety of reasons), and that we have sort of set our own sub-societal (?) norms, but I don't know if we're developed enough as a society to have our own set of gender norms. I feel like to our credit we may be more flexible in that regard, but our beliefs are still largely dictated by mainstream society. Because, anthropologically speaking (which is, incidentally, the best kind of speaking), no matter how far-removed we may feel from the mainstream, it still has formed our worldview, and that can only be changed through extraordinary measures.

Edit: On the subject of Carrot Top/Derpy vs Lyra/Bon Bon. I’d have to point out that Dinky might come in to play here. In her fanon Derpy is a mother, therefore fans have attributed that to her heterosexuality (why she couldn’t have just had a baby and then become a lesbian is beyond me). Meanwhile, Lyra and Bon Bon have not had a child anywhere between them leaving room in peoples’ minds for a homosexual pairing (because it’s apparently hard for two members of the same sex to be close friends).

On the matter of the current subject: I’d say it’s for a number of reasons. A major factor I’d think would contribute being the “male” fantasy. I believe there was a poll somewhere (probably Equestria Daily) that asked why they liked homosexual pairings and that answer had a considerable amount of votes. Of course they could have been joking, but then all of this info would be useless and I’d be forced to flip a table.

Edit2: Accidentally quoted this post instead of editing it. Fixed now.
Edit3: God, I suck at these things. Corner of shame, here I come.

On the topic of the thread name:

Pony General 4: Now with 30% less cholesterol

Pony General 4: Watered down by a lawmaker

Pony General 4: Official studio of the late night debate show

Back to discussion.

@Verbose

Most of us are Geeks, I can say that with confidence. I myself stopped trying to be cool years ago and just embraced my Nerdiness as who I am. My life got better after that.

I definitely feel removed from the mainstream so your assertion could well be correct

But while I feel removed for nerdiness reasons, one can also feel removed for sexuality reasons too, leading a fandom such as this to appeal to the LGBT group as well as socially inept nerds

Did you know that the Furry fandom has an enormous percentage of Bixesual members? It was revealed in the numerous surveys and studies they did on themselves (Google the Ultimate Furry Survey). One can speculate that this happened because the LGBT group feels removed from the mainstream and non-mainstream fandoms such as the Furry fandom appeal to them naturally.

If you can speculate that, then you can also speculate than the Brony fandom appeals to the LGBT group for similar reasons

And I haven't even touched on the fact that underlying this whole thing is cute and adorable little ponies who prance in a world filled with sugar and rainbows. Things like that have always appealed to metrosexual senses.

Ninjacount = 2

Here is the survey I was talking about.

From the survey:

Not surprising to us, 70% of the Bronies described themselves as being heterosexual. Twelve percent identified themselves as bisexual.

They tried to pass that off as us not being different from the mainstream in that respect…

12% bisexual is a lot. 70% heterosexual is about 20% lower than what's out there in literature. Again, heterocentric norms might make people answer differently in most surveys than one in the Brony community, but I think those who can't/don't ascribe to mainstream norms and values (for various reasons including sexuality) are more likely to spend a lot of time on the Internet, and those who are most likely to respond positively to FiM are probably more liberal in their perception of gender norms.
 
 
I like opspe's point about being able to express our sexuality more in the fandom than in other places. FiM and the connection of traditionally female things may bring that to light more than anything we'd normally see in life. Assuming I got his point well-enough…

To be honest I don't think the fandom sees either of them (Derpy and Carrot Top) as sexy therefore there isn't any "sexy" or rule 34 pics of them. I see Derpy as a ditzy young mother who takes advantage of Carrot Top's hospitality (not on purpose) but they are good friends. Carrot Top feels for Derpy (being a mother and all) so she overlooks it.
I have seen Carrot Top X Brauburn though but still not as much as Bon bon X Lyra and nothing really of Derpy at all.

I like opspe’s point about being able to express our sexuality more in the fandom than in other places. FiM and the connection of traditionally female things may bring that to light more than anything we’d normally see in life. Assuming I got his point well-enough…

That's more or less what I meant, but I would say explore rather than express, especially when it comes to writing shipfics.

And the study says 9% asexual. That is something which I've always associated with near-complete isolation from the mainstream, that is to say extreme geeky-ness, which I think speaks to BSOD's point about how many of those here are self-proclaimed geeks. But 12% bi definitely indicates to me that some people who have been watching the show have begun to explore their entire sexuality, instead of repressing the lesser portion, which is what happens so often to slightly bisexual people. Remember, it's a scale…

PS BSOD: I musicspammed you again, if you didn't see. I have way too much music I want to share with you, it's pretty ridiculous.

This makes me think back to the amount of Pony-confessions where people allegedly claim that the fandom helped them come out with their sexuality.

Did we get a count on how many there were? I'm sure there are at least 5 of those in our own image section.

@opspe

I saw it (you magnificent bastard). I just tend to reply to wall posts last once I'm done with the forums. Plus I still need to hand in my NationRP turn…If I don't do it soon I'll be….TARDY!

[edit]

I need to duck out of this conversation for about half an hour. I'll be back

I also think that it really depends on the fandom (what site or even person) as to what gets accepted and what doesn't especially with background ponies. I think with Bon bon X Lyra most sites and people accepted that from the beginning, whereas other characters have several different stories. Depending on the site you can see a character as gay or straight, with one pony or another. There really isn't a right or wrong answer as to why though.

Shit! help guys! I divided by zero!

Are you sure you didn't just drop an acid tab?

There's no need to get everyone all riled up over what could possibly be a false alarm.

Okay, new topic, and this shouldn't require too much thinking. What things would you guys like to see from the show in the future?

I personally would like to see more character development of ponies who aren't Rarity. I feel like we haven't had much at all from AJ or Fluttershy this season, and I also think that their characters are the most limited in terms of depth.

Also anyone else feel free to jump in with a topic if you have one…

I would Like to see more of the backstory of the princess sisters. Id also like to see a Celestia and Luna episode

But I gotta go to sleep. I'm working tomorrow.

I'd like to see more applejack. Perhaps they can find a way to further develop her character. Let's hope that Studio B can surprise us with that. Also, good night Daniel.

My quest to browse all of the Rarity images took a wrong, but pleasant turn.

And then we colored.

But yeah, more Applejack. She may be the most balanced pony with the least glaring character flaws, but I feel like she hasn't had enough interaction with another pony in an episode. Her and Pinkie, AJ with Twilight, more Rarity and Applejack…and then some more (I loved those two in Look Before You Sleep.)

I like Pinkie episodes. I feel like she is being made to be a comic relief character…which she will always be, but she's much more than that. Or at least I would like to believe that. So some Pinkie-focused conflict would be nice.

F*ckin' Scootaloo episodes. Apple Bloom is the "Twilight" of the CMC, in that there's rarely an appearance with the Crusaders without her. But Scootaloo has so much potential! She's cute and awesome with a cool design. Generally, I just need one of those things to like a character, and she has all three.

More Rarity.
 
 
 
 
Yes, still more Rarity. I'm really starting to like her.

Holy crap, what's with all the walls of text?

Ah. Of course.

Scootaloo. Now that's one I hadn't thought of. She definitely has an interesting character, and I'd like to see more of it, preferably not in connection with RD.

Also I find the different flying abilities of the pegasi really interesting. Apparently they lack flight as an intrinsic ability, which to me is surprising, seeing as how they are, well, flying horses…

@Drpepperfan: Welcome to the Late Night Debate Club. Come for the ponies, stay for the dissertations!

Hey DPF, you're just in time (actually, pretty late) for the late night debate club. Where all of us master debaters (haha) get together and actually discuss stuff. Usually stuff about the fandom or of some minute aspect of the show. Most of the time we discuss these things for no other reason then just to see ourselves talk because we believe this thread can be used for intelligent conversation.

And I must agree, Scootaloo needs some character development. All we really know of her is that she's obsessed over Rainbow Dash. And Pinkie needs more episodes, I want to know how her amish family is doing.

Edit: Opspe, would you mind going into detail with the "different flying abilities of the pegasi" thing?

'Course. On the one hand, there's Rainbow, the Wonderbolts, etc. They're obviously extremely proficient at flying, and that's to be expected; they are athletes after all. But on the other hand, you have Fluttershy and Scootaloo who exhibit little to no flying ability. Fluttershy can fly, but not very fast, and as far as I know there's no direct evidence that Scoot can fly at all. Both of them live on the ground after all, so it's not a completely necessary skill for them to have.

Pegasi are born in Cloudsdale (and other cloud cities). We saw that there are flying lessons for fillies in Cloudsdale. BUT there are pegasi who live on the ground who appear to lack flight. So for me it's down to one of two things:

(1) Ground-pegasi gradually lose their ability to fly due to lack of practice
(2) Ground-pegasi never had flight ability to begin with and were exiled, in a manner of speaking

In case 1, why would they move to the ground in the first place? In case 2, doesn't it seem odd that an otherwise healthy pegasus (Scoot isn't deformed or anything) lacks the ability to do something so intrinsic to their nature?

That is a good point. As we all know, flight is an ability exclusive to their race. But I would think of it as an innate talent of all pegasi. As any talent, no practice weakens the skill. I also see their flight as relative of a birds'. At younger ages, they cannot fly as their wings are too weak. After a certain age, they will achieve flight (hopefully I was wrong in assuming they're thrown off cliffs). After that point it's up to them whether or not they choose to exercise this talent. Scootaloo is too young to fly and Fluttershy is too timid, as pegasi are more likely to draw attention. Much practice allows greater feats in flight to be achieved. I consider the strange flight abilities that Rainbow Dash and the Wonderbolts seem to exhibit as proof to this. The Wonderbolts are all able to fly while leading a trail of smoke (with lightning no less) whereas Rainbow Dash can make rainbows. Then again, the rainbows that RD lead might be solely because of her mane. So I would assume that many flight skills can be learned but certain abilities might be exclusive to certain pegasi (therefore, I now wish to see Derpy leading a flying muffin trail).

Edit: Forgot to add one thing. The pegasi who are seen on the ground. That doesn't mean they don't practice their talent. Perhaps they practice it less than RD and the Wonderbolts. Much like a gift, you have the choice as to whether or not you wish to use it.

Edit2: I somehow managed to delete a sentence that was supposed to be in there, fixed now. I also reworded some of my sentences to flow better. Sleep deprivation is no excuse for laziness.

Edit3: I'd just like to say, good discussion people. Now get Verbose and Burning_Phoneix in here so they can show us how tl;dr is done. Then wake up Algernon and have him contribute. We need to dominate this thread with intelligent discussions. Also, the instinctual thing is an interesting angle to view it from. I think the next time I watch an episode, I'll keep this perspective in mind when watching a pegasi fly.

Edit4: Forgot to address BSoD. It could in fact be small devices to create smoke. But as opspe pointed out, pegasi seem to have an ability to manipulate weather. I was under the assumption that with greater skill they'd be able to do some incredible things like lightning smoke trails.

Whew, I'm back. Sorry it took me so long.

Now an episode that focuses on Scootaloo learning how to fly. That I would genuinely like to see. It does seem that Scootaloo lives only the ground and goes to a normal ground-pony school rather than that fancy flying school in the sky which we have seen before.

Furthermore it does appear that flying is something a Pony must learn rather than something that comes naturally. We've seen Filly Dash (and other fillies) fly like an expert in one particular flashback so if flying is a natural skill you can obtain at that stage, then Scoot should have it by now…but she doesn't. And it's not like Scoot just isn't interested in flying. She is just as ambitious about flying as Dash is!

So if Scoot wants to fly, she needs to figure it out for herself or find a coach since her school wont do that for her.

I'd just love to see how the show approaches that and explains the process involved in Pony flight.

This raises another question: Shouldn't Scoot's parents be teaching her?

Oh boy, my headcanon can go places with that one: Adopted by Earth Ponies? Negligent parents? Or just very strict parents who's views on their kid flying is similar to a humans views on letting their kid drive the car. Hmmm, the possibilities…

Now to answer opspe:

why would they move to the ground in the first place?

Could be an economy thing. There are plenty of resources (particularly agriculture) that are directly under Earth-Pony control. It could be, that if some Pegasi want to be involved in the production, distribution and consumption of those resources that are controlled by Earth-Ponies then they have to be a part of their community

In case 2, doesn’t it seem odd that an otherwise healthy pegasus (Scoot isn’t deformed or anything) lacks the ability to do something so intrinsic to their nature?

It does. Birds figure out how to fly on their own without schooling. But then again Ponies are not birds.

[edit]

Bob mentioned

The Wonderbolts are all able to fly while leading a trail of smoke (with lightning no less) whereas Rainbow Dash can make rainbows

I assumed that the wonderbolts leave a smoke trail thanks to discretely attached smoke machines integrated into their suits. You know, like the ones Skywriters use.

Or it could just be magic again, what else explains RD's Nyan Cat trail?

ninjacount = 1

Much like a gift, you have the choice as to whether or not you wish to use it.

That's interesting, and I suppose it's the case. I just assumed that for them flying was instinctual, as opposed to a unicorn's magic, which always seemed like more of a talent to me. But I suppose they are more or less the same; for a unicorn, magic is in its nature, just as flying is to a pegasus, but it must be learned nonetheless. I still think that they must be instinctual to some extent just because they are so central to what defines unicorns and pegasi as races. I guess an apt comparison would be swimming; it's something we know how to do on an basic level (like doggy-paddling), but there are some who do it much, much better than others, so in that way it's sort of both an instinct and a talent.

But then there's the regular old earth ponies. They have nothing. Suckers.

Ninja'd by BSOD. In response: Honestly, I've never really considered the economics of Equestria. I suppose if a pegasus really wanted to get involved in, let's say, rock farming, they would move to the ground. But it seems to me like there are an abundance of earth ponies to do those jobs, and that pegasi would be better suited to do things like weather control. It just seems somewhat unlikely to me.

And yes, that would be the ideal Scootaloo episode.

And in further response to BSOD ninja-editing my edit, I assume that since pegasi can control weather, they possess the technology to generate clouds and thunder in a localized environment like that. It would probably be something like what you said though.

Further edits:

Algy should be waking up, it's 09:00 his time. Verbose is probably asleep, it's 03:00 for him. And where do you live Iambob? I'm trying to collect everyone's time zones so we can coordinate our debates.

I still think that they must be instinctual to some extent just because they are so central to what defines unicorns and pegasi as races. I guess an apt comparison would be swimming; it’s something we know how to do on an basic level (like doggy-paddling), but there are some who do it much, much better than others, so in that way it’s sort of both an instinct and a talent.

It would have to be instinctual. I imagine that if nobody teaches Scootaloo how to fly, she will find out a way to do it on her own. Schooling just means she learns how to do it sooner and better.

You can also compare pegasi flight it to verbal speech. We have all the physical mechanisms in place to make meaningful verbal gestures. We've got an internal organ and a brain section dedicated to the job. Yet it is possible for a human to never learn how to communicate at all. A "wild human" (sounds like some kind of oxymoron, maybe I should use "wild little pony") could survive in the wild and never speak a single word of any known language.

But it seems to me like there are an abundance of earth ponies to do those jobs, and that pegasi would be better suited to do things like weather control. It just seems somewhat unlikely to me.

Maybe Scoot's parents decided that the weather control industry is over-saturated and they were more likely to find employment and better income in rock farming

At this point I am taking cartoon over-analysis to absolutely ridiculous levels

I assume that since pegasi can control weather, they possess the technology to generate clouds and thunder in a localized environment like that. It would probably be something like what you said though.

That's a much better explanation. I'm going with that

I can no longer edit my post, so I will have to make a new post. I do not enjoy this because I don't have much to add to the discussion therefore this post is pretty much a waste. Anyways, to BSoD, that's my opinion of it too. Exactly as you described it, thanks for summing it all up. And to opspe, I live in NYC, it's 4:05am over here. I should be asleep, but I wouldn't be insane if anything I did made sense.

Edit: The whole "my opinion" thing was about the flight/speech relation.

Edit2: @opspe: I would like to point something out. Take the primitive aspect of speech and apply it to flight. I think you'd be interested in what you might find. If a pegasi were to learn to fly on it's own, it would probably be an improper form of flight (wings flapping too hard, not timed to hover properly, etc). Speech has evolved over time into a more sophisticated form, I believe their flight has too. Which is why we see some pegasi faster than others. We've seen that fluttershy can catch up to RD, she just lacks the motivation to fly properly. If we were to use this analogy with speech, imagine some stereotypical country person, with the accent and all. Given the motivation, they can train themselves to speak as a high class gentleman but they'd never know if they did it right unless they compared themselves. Therefore, I believe that pegasi don't fly purely on instinct but instead choose how they want to fly and compare it to others to see if they've achieved the proper level they wished to reach. As for the wild human vs wild pegasi comparison, take this into account. You say a wild pegasi wouldn't survive long. I ask you, what exactly do you think was the mortality rate for wild humans before proper communication was achieved?

Edit3: Please let me know if my arguments stop making sense. If they do, then I think it would be time to get some rest.

A “wild human” (sounds like some kind of oxymoron, maybe I should use “wild little pony”) could survive in the wild and never speak a single word of any known language.

Oh, see, now it's interesting, because I think you're making a false argument there. You see, verbal speech has developed and evolved over thousands of years; it's not something that was originally intrinsically and physically unique to Homo sapiens. It involves a high degree of cognitive ability. As a species we may now have the capacity for speech, but 33000 b.p. when Homo sapiens first appeared, language, if it existed, was extremely primitive. Since then our brains have developed a lot, and we are now capable of advanced cognition. Flying, on the other hand, is a purely physical ability. It is not something that can evolve independently of a species. While it may be fair to say that a "wild human" could live without language despite having the ability to use it, I think that a "wild pegasus," under the same conditions, could not live without flight, because flight is an instinctual physical ability. Now I know that some pegasi can't fly, but I think that there would be some natural instinct, even in complete isolation, to attempt to use one's wings. I think it really comes down to the fact that language is abstract and flight is physical.

So, yeah. I think swimming works as a better analogy.

Now, that's what I call overanalysis!

All I see is black and white on the last few pages. This thread needs more Rainbow Dash!

Heresy! This thread are belong to Debate Club! No imagespam, no mercy!

Sorry, Iambob, it took me a while to notice your edit there.

You speak of a logical evolution from "country twang" to "society accent." This is something I strongly disagree with. Not that I have a twang. Saying that one is more primitive than the other is simply wrong. They're just different. When I say "primitive language," I mean proto-languages, like Indo-European.

Now, you say you think flight has evolved to a more sophisticated form over time. I think that it's more accurate to say that they developed new techniques. Language has a traceable evolutionary timeline, just like living organisms. I don't think that the same could be said of flying. Techniques may change over time, but they certainly don't evolve in the same way. That being said, I do agree that pegasi fly with a mix of instinct and acquired talent. My point was there's no way to get rid of the instinct, which, returning to the original issue, is why I find it so interesting that some pegasi can't fly.

I gotta hit the sack soon too. I'll give it another 30 mins or so.

@EFP

You can have your images when Ric Tesla and Berry Punch get back here. Now hush

@opspe

If I'm making an invalid comparison I'll own that. I am certainly by no means an expert on these things

Although I cannot help but think that if a Pegasi were never to fly, it would just be an Earth Pony and could continue to survive as one. After all we don't see the wingless ponies having any problems surviving without them.

To disagree means arguing what physical disadvantages that a wingless Pegasus carries compared to a regular Pony and how those disadvantage would doom a wingless Pegasus in any way.

Sadly, we don't have nearly enough information on that subject

But it seems to me, from looking at the show, that Pegasi are really not that different from an Earth Pony in terms of physical and behavioral properties aside from having a pair of wings stapled onto them (Cartoon physics are an important factor here). Thus their survival abilities should not be so different either.

But I fully welcome you to offer a complete comparison of Pegasus and Earth Pony skeletal structure, muscular development, brain development, instinctual habits, behavioral traits, foraging, migration and mating practices and how flight ability serves as a necessary and critical function in Pegasi survival. When you are done I will scream "NEEEEEEEERD"

[edit]

Counter-thought:

My current thinking is that we have Winged and Wingless both demonstrating equal survival abilities despite one lacking an advantage. This is comparable to Birds that exist today where we have both Winged and Wingless birds both demonstrating equal survival abilities.

But if you clip a sparrows wings, would it live like a Quail and survive? Not at all. It would die a horrible death. This is what opspe is thinking.

Counter-Counter-thought:

The difference in survival ability between a flightless Sparrow and a Quail is that one is not adapted towards surviving on ground level. Sparrows don't know how to run, hide and forage at ground level.

But Sparrows don't compare to Pegasi. Pegasi compare to regular Ponies. They can run, they can jump, they can work on the ground, live on the ground, interact with other ground creatures. Throughout the show they have demonstrated every ability to live without flying. Fluttershy is proof of this. So they must have simultaneously evolved both airborne and ground-locked instincts

[edit]

Counter-Counter-Counter-thought:

OMG BLUE SCREEN, ITS A GODDAMN KIDS SHOW

But I fully welcome you to offer a complete comparison of Pegasus and Earth Pony skeletal structure, muscular development, brain development, instinctual habits, behavioral traits, foraging, migration and mating practices and how flight ability serves as a necessary and critical function in Pegasi survival. When you are done I will scream “NEEEEEEEERD”

I'm not that into the show, sorry.

And I agree that earth ponies and pegasi and unicorns are all pretty similar anyways. This is a cartoon kids show, after all. I think we all forget that sometimes.

WAIT! I HAVEN'T PUT MY OPINION FORTH YET!

Aw, what the hell, the topic has passed me by :(

@opspe. Aaaah, now I see where you're coming from. First I would like to say that I meant no offense in comparing the two forms of vernacular. I was just stating that the of the two forms, one is seen as superior, which I assume would be how flight is seen. Second, I understand what it is that you're trying to state and I have to agree with you. Surely it was a basic instinct to them, but I believe as time went on they felt the need to use it less, much as we no longer feel the need to hunt for our daily meals. In that sense, evolution of flight may have contributed to weakening the need for experienced flyers, much as technology and farming has allowed us to live in a society where food is readily available to us. So in that sense, yes, flight is instinctual. But because of a lack of need, many pegasi fail to see any reason to learn to fly any greater than a basic level.

Edit: @Burning_Phoneix: Feel free to throw in your opinions on our previous subjects. There's no need to silence yourself, we're a group of sophisticated individuals. I'm sure we'll enjoy more input on the matter. Also, are you enjoying OUR tl;dr discussions? They're nowhere near the level that you and Verbose exhibit, but I think we did well.

Edit2: Also, where's Citation? I wonder if he'd enjoy this conversation.

Edit3: Cleaned up my sentences to flow better, stupid laziness. And I would also like to agree with opspe, this page was great.

But because of a lack of need, many pegasi fail to see the need in learning to fly any greater than a basic level.

Well, I think you nailed that.

So they must have simultaneously evolved both airborne and groundlocked instincts simultaneously.

I agree, except for you saying simultaneously twice in the same sentence. Pony evolution is clearly a fascinating topic.

I haven't seen CN around this time of night much. And phoenix: necro-ing topics is always fine, because you might have a fresh point of view.

I think it's safe to say that this has been the single greatest page in the history of the thread.

Job well done boys. Look at those fine walls of text.

Yep…ain't no Mongol invaders getting past this great wall of Pony discussion.

(Passes beer)