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Now I remember why I'm a leftist, because apparently conservative doesn't mean not having child labour, like it was the norm when I was a kid (even my grandmother was obsessed that "kids should be schools", and she was a Gaullist).

I really want to reiterate the depths of contempt I feel for the fact that this is happening at the same that parents & politicians are preaching about "saving the children". It doesn't mean any actual aid for kids, just making sure with their law-making that there's going to be kids who'll be born into a hellish situation.

I'm fairly sure there's someone just monitoring this place and downvoting everything, I got downvoted immediately for expressing my liking of women with abs because god forbid women do anything

Wtf

mfw

He definitely seems to be on the side of blaming the US for a lot of global issues

That's a near universal stance among left-wing commentators online. Might be residual salt from the whole "cold war" thing, idk exactly.

For the internment camps thing, are you referring to the covid quarantine things they set up during the pandemic? I really don't think you should call them that, They were quarantines cause Australia was actually taking covid seriously. A 14 day holding period is not an internment camp, Its not even close to something that bad.

It's a very funny way of referring to it. Though speaking purely technically, the fact that people were being detained without intent to prosecute for a crime as a preventative measure does make them literally "internment camps". I can't blame the people who tried to escape, since it seems like a rather excessive measure. Better than sealing people in their residences, to be sure, but most certainly more than needed to be done. Especially for the people who tested negative the whole time.

Also, I tend to dislike the idea of privatizing things that are necessary to live, and the conservative government privatized the power grid in 2015, and have been privatizing other things too. There were rumbles of them privatizing the water which definitely would be a disaster

I think the opposite; the state can't be trusted to manage utilities responsibly, without the immense potential for abuse this holds drawing the attention of politicians with sinister motives.

I'd rather have vital utilities under the control of those who see the people as wallets rather than those who see the people as enemies, even if it means keeping it out of the hands of those genuinely caring and responsible. After all, a company wants to keep its customers alive, since it's much harder to get dead people to pay for products.

You can see proof of this abuse and its potential in the various blackouts ordered by the Indian government, especially in Kashmir.

Wtf

Seems like Missouri has legislated some new restrictions to "gender-affirming care". The big detail is that the new law requires a much longer road to getting any significant interventions: you must have three years of medically-documented gender dysphoria, 15 therapy sessions, and the treatment of all other known mental health conditions. I can see what they're going for, trying to require a high degree of confidence and a sound mental state before doing anything irreversible and life-changing, but it's also clear why people are upset. Any sort of "ban" only seems to apply to minors (which is quite reasonable). This form seems to be to report those acting in violation of the new law, which comes into effect near the end of the month.

Several days back US bill 686 The Restrict Act was being talked about, otherwise known as Patriot Act 2.0
Well for just a little good news Montana's managed to come up with a little something for themselves that isn't all kinds of dangerous to civil liberties.
https://leg.mt.gov/bills/2023/SB0499//SB0419_X.pdf
It's not much but I don't want to take these things for granted.

Counting how I got two downvotes so at least one person here probably thinks this is a good thing

Yeah…it will… A LOT worse…..

my honest reaction to current events

@No!!! & @Watermelanie

I'm still a little bit interested about the fact that whenever I bring up child labour, it rarely gets any direct replies, but it does get downvotes (and that's the first comment with the news, not the second one).

It's important, and it's not something that's easily rationalized away, nor does it fit nicely in the current political debates.

A combination of limiting abortion, finding ways to undermine public education while encouraging "charter schools" (which are leaching public funds with private education directives) and cutting regulations to child labour paints a very dark picture of the future.

@VeteranAdventureHobo

the idea of privatizing things that are necessary to live

@Spaghetto

I think the opposite; the state can't be trusted to manage utilities responsibly,

Personally, I'm on the side that States should manage utilities. I have three reasons why:

1) Economic Efficiency * : To quote Adam Smith in the Wealth of Nations, who's normally used as the guru of the "Free Market", the law, borders & military and public goods should be the domain of a government. I hope the first two are obvious why it's the case, and the third is because the intent of public goods is to be a service, not to generate profit. Trying to generate profit from them actually impoverishes society with rent-seeking behaviour.

The claim that privatizing will improve efficiency has fallen on it's head multiple times in practice.

In my experience UK's cross-country rail lines are terrible compared to Germany's, France's and Italy's (and to not blame the UK too much, I'd like to point out that London's metro and London in general is cleaner and more efficient than Paris).

Also, funny thing is that the groups that own much of the UK's rail-lines are those from EU countries, which includes a majority of the French & Germans, which goes to my second point.

2) Security: COVID & the war in Ukraine should be good enough examples for why it's smart to not depend on private entities for essential or even important services, especially that of other countries. Funny thing about companies, they don't have to come from your own country.

In my experience, those who are for corporatism and privatization of public goods tend to change their tune very quickly when it's the Chinese who are intent on buying it up.

> it's much harder to get dead people to pay for products.

If they're thinking long-term, which they rarely do.

It's the next-quarter, short-term cost-cutting like with East Palestine or just affecting people who won't be part of their customer base like with Minamata Syndrome (a factory dumped mercury into water, poisoning an nearby fishing village) and every single other disaster of this type disproves that. Companies don't account for externalities of their operation.

Your example of Kashmir fits more for countries whose democracy is failing or who are already autocratic (like once again, Russia), and if that's your concern than government management of public goods is a tool, like having a strong bureaucracy or a competent military & police force.

A quasi-feudal oligarchic mess like Russia can still exist without autarky.

The Main causes? We'll, that's one subject which everyone is arguing about here.

Two memes to fit how I feel about Missouri and Florida as of late:

People are so silly nowadays

Terminally on 4chan

Resident evil what now

Spaghetto wrote:

Seems like Missouri has legislated some new restrictions to "gender-affirming care". The big detail is that the new law requires a much longer road to getting any significant interventions: you must have three years of medically-documented gender dysphoria, 15 therapy sessions, and the treatment of all other known mental health conditions.

It is not a law, it is an Emergency Rule by Missouri State Attorney General Andrew Bailey.

Articles referenced: AP News & The 19th

AP News:

Before gender-affirming medical treatments can be provided by physicians, the regulation requires people to have experienced an “intense pattern” of documented gender dysphoria for three years and to have received at least 15 hourly sessions with a therapist over at least 18 months. Patients also would first have to be screened for autism and “social media addiction,” and any psychiatric symptoms from mental health issues would have to be treated and resolved.

Spaghetto wrote:

I can see what they're going for, trying to require a high degree of confidence and a sound mental state before doing anything irreversible and life-changing, but it's also clear why people are upset.

The 19th:

It forces trans people to jump through expensive, and for many, unattainable, hoops.

The 19th:

The situation in Missouri will particularly hurt transgender people who don’t have the funds to move or to pay out of pocket for the new requirements laid out in the attorney general’s order, including extensive therapy appointments, local advocates say.

AP News:

“Placing restrictions on transitioning for people with depression is just a way for them to completely bar us from transitioning at all,” Bridgman said. “For lots of trans people, dysphoria is the cause of depression. You can’t treat the depression without treating the underlying dysphoria.”

The 19th:

The rule is “incredibly vague” as to how it works and who it affects, said Omar Gonzalez-Pagan, an attorney and health care strategist at Lambda Legal. The rule does not say when physicians will have to adopt new requirements for existing patients, and it’s an open question as to whether current trans patients are protected from losing care.

The 19th:

Attorneys say that it is unclear whether the rule blocks access to gender-affirming care for trans patients already receiving it, although in at least one case, a health care provider plans to halt all care after April 27.

“I do not currently have the processes in place to defend my license to practice gender-affirming care should the state investigate me under the new Attorney General emergency rule,” the note from Taylor’s doctor reads. Her doctor recommended requesting a 90-day supply of medication and advised patients to set up regular appointments to build documentation required by the emergency rule. “If this rule is overturned, I will reinstate your plan of care immediately,” the note says.

AP News:

Stacy Cay, an autistic trans woman in Kansas City, has been stockpiling vials of injectable estrogen in anticipation of restrictions. The 30-year-old comedian and model realized she only required a small dose and has saved up enough estrogen to last about a year. When that runs out, she will have to travel across state lines to fill prescriptions or consider moving elsewhere.

Cay said her persistent depression will cut off her access to hormones under the regulation and that her autism diagnosis could complicate her path to receiving future care. While the regulation does not specify whether autism disqualifies a person for gender-affirming care, it does mandate an assessment.

The 19th:

“It is completely clear that the whole point of this order is to deter providers from Missouri from providing this care,” Minter said. “The point of this order is to make it so burdensome and so contrary to medical ethics and the standard of care that providers give up and no longer treat transgender patients.”

"So says the 19th"
"So says the AP"

That's what I think when I see those quoted predictions of intent. When a declaration is left without citation you place the validity of your statements on the speaker's word, honour, reputation, what have you.

I don't know the 19th but I know the AP and thier word is tarnished with partisanship and activism in my experience. It may be better than a Salon or a Mary Sue, but nevertheless I am no more like to adopt thier interpretation of the Missouri's legislature's intentions than you would Fox News.

This is why I don't just throw SFO videos at Kups or Lotus Eaters at Gilain, it would be a hefty gamble they would even get past the thumbnail and they already have thier preconceptions.

You would have gotten more mileage if you had said it yourself; it would rob detractors of an easy out and it would hold the implication that you were capable of at least understanding the talking points you heard elsewhere enough to repeat them yourself.

Noone likes debating a billboard.

Greyblades wrote:

You would have gotten more mileage if you had said it yourself

So literally what I posted last time changes to trans care came up, which was met with "tell it to your therapist" and "being so ready and willing to fly off the handle doesn't do you any favors, in any manner or capacity".

Greyblades wrote:

When a declaration is left without citation

Much of what I would say is identical to the quotes within the article that are requoted here, by people directly impacted by the rule, either personally, or in medical or legal practice. Those voices hold more weight than mine, and having multiple ones in once plsce made it easier to format on mobile.

You see to be suggesting these perspectives are irrelevant because you don't like the institutions they talked to.

Greyblades wrote:

Missouri's legislature's intentions

Once again, this is a special rule by Missouri State Attorney General Bailey, not a bill drafted by the legislature. This sweeping change in access of care the special rule causes is on the Office of Missouri Attorney General’s website titled as "Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey Promulgates Emergency Regulation Targeting Gender Transition Procedures for Minors". The AG and the office are well aware of the scope special rule they themselves are enacting on anyone seeking gender affirming care, but only mentions regulations for minors in the title.

Greyblades wrote:

I am no more like to adopt thier interpretation… …than you would Fox News.

And I'm not saying you should. The topic was largely glossed over in the thread with both people for and against it not going into any real depth as to what the rule itself entailed. Showing specfic articles, and the quotes therein does allow people to get a better idea of these perspectives and know the inherent bias of the source. Most right leaning outlets are not going to focus on specific trans individuals impacted by this.

If me repeating previous points on the special rule without directly pointing to concerns of people impacted by it would somehow be desirable, I will. You will forgive me if I'm skeptical that this would be the case.

So literally what I posted last time changes to trans care came up, which was met with "tell it to your therapist" and "being so ready and willing to fly off the handle doesn't do you any favors, in any manner or capacity".

So why did you regress to this?

Much of what I would say is identical to the quotes within the article that are requoted here, by people directly impacted by the rule, either personally, or in medical or legal practice. Those voices hold more weight than mine, and having multiple ones in once plsce made it easier to format on mobile.

You see to be suggesting these perspectives are irrelevant because you don't like the institutions they talked to.

I suggest nothing, I am asserting that presenting a list of quotes from partisan outlets instead of engaging him yourself is detrimental towards any counter-point you wish to make.

It would be the same if you were talking about geopolitics or women's shoes.

…Weeeell….

I am not sure of the delicate way of saying this but for me you are kind of a time investment to talk to.

In good ways; you demand a certain amount of preemptive research to avoid getting caught out, sometimed I get the rare hints of the dread of my early forays into online debate, when the forum's pre 2000s join date veterans would regularly point out a massive mistake I made in sourcing and collapse my entire argument in a line.

In bad ways; you have a habit of escalating the word count, you post walls of text, and then immediately post again with another wall, often about another topic, it's a bit jarring and I feel somewhat obligated to respond to both seeing as I am already engaged.

You might have noticed that I have dropped conversations after the 4-5th trade, it's often burnout.

There are posts that require minutes to respond to and others require hours, you regularly require hours and it's been a depressingly long time since I didn't regularly need to get up in the morning.

Fair enough. Thank you to anyone who's willing to read my text-walls and even reply to them.

I like long arguments, especially if I have to do a bit of research and even more if they point out faulty reasoning from me (and I want to emphasize that I do try remember arguments, after the emotions cool). It's why I'll probably never migrate to new social media.

I'll try to break up arguments in the future, and make the connection between leaps of logic more clear. The problem with the topic I'm currently obsessed with is that it seems like a multi-front issue. If one problem seems easy to dismiss as a lone incident, all of them together seems like a pattern to me, but just going on about "theocrats" isn't credible without specific examples.

Some people take a pause or unwind after a long day by watching a show, doing a hobby, going clubbing or getting a good night's sleep. Others like me get wound up by articles than post on meme sites. Can't say the latter is a better time-investment than the former

I digress slightly; trying to do something not unlike a gish gallop with quotes from opinion pieces is preferable to traumadumping, if only because it doesn't end a debate like an atomic bomb would end a village. It's still a bad way to try and form a counterpoint, but it makes it possible for discussion to continue.

In this case, though, I'm unsure if it was done in good faith, so I'll just respond to one thing that caught my eye in particular:

"Medical ethics". That's rather a dead concept at this point, I reckon. There's no consistency with the "oaths" sworn upon by new doctors; it needn't be Hippocratic, but absence of unity is worrisome. There's most likely more "oaths" that include gobbledygook about "equity" than those that include relevant things like "don't play God" or even just "do no harm".

It's just a buzzword, and something that can be twisted in the other direction just as easily. What's ethical about focusing the majority of your time and effort on one problem, just because it'll mean more appointments, and thus more money? What's ethical about having a "consensus" you're not even allowed to question properly?

In other words, we're in a "fuck around" period as far as ethics goes, not unlike the first half of the last century. Time will tell what our equivalent of the lobotomy will become. My money is on the wild overuse of euthanasia, personally, but there's still time for more manmade horrors to be made.

Separation of church and state? What's that, commie propaganda? /s

Texas tribune article about the bill.

Since I know the rolling stone has a poor reputation for good reason, heres the texas tribune article about the bill

The real question is whether A) it has a valid secular purpose and B) its purpose is not to instill a particular religion. The former is easy, as it can be readily argued that the Ten Commandments are a historical legal document, akin to the Code of Hammurabi (this is why Moses is included in the wall of historical lawmakers at the Supreme Court). The latter can be argued, but ultimately depends on their actual intention; unlike things such as the Bible or the Lord's Prayer, multiple religious groups recognize the Ten Commandments in some capacity.

I'm not sure how having something on a wall will interact with existing precedent, but overall it seems pretty minor. Definitely won't impact education quality in any meaningful way.

The Ten Commandments is historical but still religious. Congress cannot and should not require (key word) any religious thing (ten commandments) on public property (schools) by its very basis and design alone. Even "under God" (recently added) in the Pledge of Allegiance infringes on Atheists and anyone who doesn't worship deities named "God". Multiple religions recognizing Ten Commandments is moot. It doesn't matter if it's "something on a wall", it's an infringement, and it can be argued that more heinous infringements will follow if they believe they can get away with it.

Did you miss the second part? It seems to be an opt in on the side of the districts, but it basically says school districts can force all the schools in their district to force prayer time and bible study, and that certainly isn't "just something on a wall"

Plus, even if it is "optional", the Texas government has Ultimate say on funding for school districts. It would be incredibly easy to "encourage" adoption of prayer by "conveniently" finding more funding in the budget for Schools that do adopt it.

This is objectively a set of laws designed in direct opposition of separation of state and religion

Now THAT'S an actual violation of the separation of church and state principle. Hopefully SCOTUS will take it down. Shit like that should not happen in public schools.

If there is something Texas loves more than enforcing religion in education, is the "oh so holy untouchable realm of private business", so don't be surprised when they come with something like "Oh don't like praying in public school? Too bad, you can enroll to an atheist woke private school so we can finally close down this school district". Which again, is really on line with liberturdian raging hate boner for public utilities.

From this article

Abbott’s effort will test whether rhetoric about “wokeness” can convince Republicans to abandon even the nation’s most traditional public schools.

So far, many rural Texas conservatives remain unconvinced by the governor’s warnings. Schools here serve as Friday night football venues, leading employers and focal points of community life. Rural superintendents have been able to use their stature to mount intensive lobbying campaigns, persuading lawmakers representing overwhelmingly Republican areas to break with their governor on a bedrock issue.

Meadow’s population is 601, according to the 2020 Census, and is about two-thirds Latino. Its elementary and upper schools are housed on a single campus for about 255 students, including roughly one-third from a neighboring small town. More than two-thirds of the students are considered low income; the school provides breakfast and lunch to everyone and to-go bags for those who need dinner. Many of the teachers, administrators and coaches live in school-owned homes, in part because housing is scarce here.

The closest private schools are in Lubbock, more than 20 minutes away. But many rural students choose to home school. And like others here, Henson worries a voucher program would eventually pull money from all public schools, even as proponents promise to keep rural school budgets intact for five years.

“If we lose our school, we lose our town,” Henson said. “All we got in this little town is the school and this gin.”

Who who have thought? The biggest threat to rural conservative american lifestyle is not 'wokeness', but liberturdian economic policies which favor individual choice over public utilities and community values.

I hope and pray that someday they see this move for "school choice as an antidote for woke" as the fucking scam that it is

Your article assumes noone will set up new schools in the area or that homeschool teachers wont move to the town to capitalize on the $8000-minimum-a-head promise by the state.

All they need to do is make sure they provide a better service than the public school and those parents will switch over in droves; thanks to 30+ years of public education's regressing that has become a laughably easy hurdle.

Gee I wonder who's fault that is
>gut funding from service
>complain that the service is bad
>try to cancel service
many such cases

Well, unlike lobotomies, euthanasia isn't always bad
what is bad is how they're trying to get it prescribed to save money

If republican sabotage of government funding was the lynch pin holding back the beckoning ascent of quality public schooling; Chicago and Detroit would be university towns to rival the ivy league by now.

Though I will not pretend the party is sinless, Bush's "no child left behind" fiasco does them no favours.

Not a good idea to compare the quality of schools between "red" and "blue" states. In most metrics of education the latter does way better, and the Ivy Leagues & MIT are in the "Blue" States after all. Most economic activity really, a favorite argument of the democrats is pointing out that they're the ones with the money.

To be fair, there's Texas A&M, Duke and Georgia Tech which are also supposed to be pretty good schools, despite stereotypes the American "South" isn't dumb. New England is always going to be richer than the Mid-west, and so will anyone who holds them.

In the same way, the cities you mentioned are cited as an emblem of urban decay and have been for decades. It's the Rust belt, they've swung between parties and in the end even bringing some industries back haven't saved them, since companies prefer settling in other cities.

Like the North of England, or the North-East of France or East Germany.

Another line crossed, one of many.

@You've Yeed Your Last Haw

How did you manage to blame the "atheist woke private school" and the "liberturdian" for something that is the fault of the authoritarians and the theocrats.

Well, whatever. As long as it can be agreed that it's bad.

Not a good idea to compare the quality of schools between "red" and "blue" states. In most metrics of education the latter does way better, and the Ivy Leagues & MIT are in the "Blue" States after all. Most economic activity really, a favorite argument of the democrats is pointing out that they're the ones with the money.

I was careful to define the boundaries of my argument; "lynch pin holding back the beckoning ascent of quality public schooling".

I was not responding with an argument for the supremacy of republican states public education. (Frankly the post-regan pre-trump republicans are a complete write off in that department and the sooner the party sheds itself of them the better for everyone. I am of such conviction that I am tempted not to IMO that.)

Chicago and Detroit are prime examples of insulation from republican influence, neither have elected republican mayors since at least the 1960s and thier state governance being majority democrat or, at a glance, typically blue state Republicans.

If we could lay the defining cause of poor schooling on republican sabotage, and only republican sabotage (as Kups made no account for mitigating circumstance) then it would stand to reason the anomalys of Chicago and Detroit should not exist.

I'd say that the similarities run deeper. Much like how Canada's rampant abuse of euthanasia is the biggest and deepest issue, the lobotomy is the worst form of brain surgery in part due to its wild overapplication. Similarly drastic forms of brain surgery are still in use today, but they're much more precise and deliberate and are only used in very specific circumstances; usually, as nuclear options if nothing else is helping.

To be more general, it's a sign of flagrant ethical abuses when an extreme "nothing else is working, throw shit at the wall" option starts getting used as an everyday fix. Usually, this is because the extreme option is much more expensive and involves more intensive long-term care, which itself makes even more money. When it's due to sick curiosity and a severe lack of morals, it's more bluntly called "human experimentation", and if we don't like who's doing it, then it's also a "crime against humanity".

@Greyblades

Ah, than that's my bad. That distinction was too subtle for me.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this sabotage of public education by the GOP, but I've never bought the excuse that Democrats were only impeded by the Republicans, and if it weren't for them everything would be "perfect". That's the scam of the American Two-party system, and it goes both ways with the GOP and their own states.

It's too simplistic.

Chicago and Detroit (and a lot of rust belt cities) have problems that are pretty complex, sadly. Lots of crooked politicians, but it's like flies on a carcass of urban decay. It's why I mentioned they remind me of the north of England, or the North-East of France or East Germany.

Some cities have tried "urban regeneration" with Seoul, Milan, Nantes and parts of London apparently being sort of success stories, but there's been debates on whether it's really a success (those cities are already rich, they're just renovating sections).

In the first case –the "atheist woke private school"– i was not blaming, but noting a contradiction in how republicans are proposing their laws, almost all legislation applies only to public schools, theorethically, one could create a private school which embodies republican worst nightmares (no prayer time, sex education, diversity initiatives) and, even if they would try to close it asap, they would never try to dictate laws targeting only private schools, not only this presents a dillemma between catering to their base and violating their professed holliness of private business, but it could actually backfire on courts and may even bring down public school requirements with them. In the end, dictating what a private business should do, while desireable for them as a political strategy, its a line they are very uneasy on crossing.

Current precedent would have the law as unconstitutional for a mandatory placement. This current law seems very similar to what was set in the case of Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980).

Republicans suck, Democrats suck, welcome to politics.

Here's your complimentary depression

Accurate

Tucker Carlson has parted ways with Fox News.

Interestingly Don Lemon has been fired by CNN at pretty much the same time.

The two opposing pillars of punditry simultanious jettisoning ther side's memorable talking head, quite the coincidence.

Have you considered…

The Clintons, Giuliani, most of Wall Street and Epstein.

Danny DeVito also lives there, so it evens out.

The US is actually better about making sure there's politicians with power from all their states to be fair.

The UK & France have an issue of most of the high-ranking being located in the same place, and from there a smaller group with the same socio-educational background (Eton and other elite shcools, grande écoles etc…).

I want to bring up Samuel Paty. He's been misused, so I'll like to talk about the four things that made this case particularly terrible for me:

1) The school did nothing to protect him, the state did nothing to protect him. Teachers are abandoned. Everyone responsible betrayed him, and thus were de-legitimized.

2) Two students sold him out. Lone-wolf terrorists can be dismissed as aberrations, but that a girl lied and some greedy kids sold their teachers out, that destroys a trust. There, there are questions on patterns and communal issues.

3) The parent organized a witch hunt, and a community painted the target that led to Samuel's death. All over a lie. A good lesson to be careful of cancel culture, it has a become a digital fatwah, and those who engage in campaigns like this will be prosecuted.

7 are being for all this prosecuted, so hopefully there will be no diffusion of responsibility.

4) Foreign media. The Arab nations impotently threatened trade wars like always (never materialized), but this time the Anglo media attacked laïcité, they tried to blame Samuel Paty for his murder, because he "hurt feelings" for a cartoon of Mohammed (which students didn't even need to see, despite the hysterical media campaign).

The American media, individual people legitimized this violence, as accused by top officials. At heart, some are the same as ISIS terrorists, it's only a question of the society they live in.

That marked me, and it's likely one reason why I don't trust any of the theocrats of the US in their current crusade. It's a simple as connecting two dots to figure out what the final goal is, once someone shows you their true goals, you don't forget them.

Since the US elections are coming, I'd personally want a republican that is not La Trompeta Naranja to run for the republicans, since IMO we had enough Trompeta at this moment.

this comment will be buried in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…

You don't come here often do you?

God this year has been fucking shit