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Shit, they know! Quick Spagetto, shut it down!

I find it endlessly amusing that I seem to be cursed or blessed to occasionally make a quick edit in the first few seconds after posting and when I reload I've already caught a downvote while it still says "less than a minute ago"

Like this is the fourth time in the last six months, it's great

Edit: Ha!

Eh just saying most of us seem to have these weird stalkers who just keep tabs on us 24/7 to downvote. I've got one too, they'll even do it on my benign non-political posts (like I don't get what was downvote worthy of me making a thread about the announcement of the latest Mortal Kombat game and what little bit we know about the game so far).

I feel like it's a combination of that and lurkers, probably. I've got a pretty evened-out number of likes and yet I once got hella disliked for expressing the fact that I literally just like buff women.

"Do not, my friends, become addicted to updoots. It will take hold of you, and you will resent its absence."

I just find the quick response funny, extra when its on a text wall that there was no way the downvoter could have read in under a minute.

*LGB*T? what does this have to lesbians bis and gays?

Give it time…give it time….they are next

If they arent stopped that is

Ah, so nothing. You guys predict that he will eventually based on… what?

"he's only trying to exterminate one minority group you're just paranoid that he will go after others"
also funny how any time the government does anything you're paranoid about it unless it happens to lgbt

It could happen, why do you think it will?

I'm sorry I'm kind of having trouble parsing the first paragraph, you think having school kid's trans status flaunted would be an increase in thier quality of life?

Like… have you never met a high school teenager? You know, those hormone riddled little psychopaths with the self restraint of piranhas who's raison d'être is making eachother miserable for the slightest divergeance?

Greyblades wrote:

you think having school kid's trans status flaunted would be an increase in thier quality of life?

That's kind of the point.

Many trans young individuals who put enough effort into their appearance can pass as their preferred gender without gender-specific clothing or hormones/other medically affirming care. It is often easier with FtM but this is the case with some MtF individuals as well.

Referring to these individuals as their birth sex would be having their "trans status flaunted".

Also, have you met actual teenagers? Some do fit into that characterization, but a lot of them do not by any means.

We live in a society where slopes are often slippery. But for that assessment to have ground, there must be a demonstration of a continuity between current event A and future events B, C, and so forth. And for that, there must be a proper understanding of event A; not only what's actually happening, but who's fueling it and why. In this case as in many, there's no united front, and that makes establishing continuity much more complicated.

I remember seeing some statistics that were relevant to this point a few years ago, but I'll need to find 'em again. (I also remember seeing a study that said something interesting in relation to the current discussion, but I'll have to find it again too)

I dont believe you, on either.

There are some trans capable of being convincing and for the sake of argument maybe there is a small subset who might even be able to maintain such for the entire duration of schooling in the enviroment of regular close contact with dozens of people who by the fact of thier age are hyperfixated on the bodies of the opposite sex.

But not in adolescance; all but those of the scarcest tier of accomidating genetics are going to be betrayed by the simple fact or absence of thier puberty; it is not if but when.

And do not try to tell me that the current generation of teenagers are somehow bucking the 300,000 year old human condition of teenagers being viscious little bastards to thier unconforming peers.

Greyblades, I need to ask you, honestly here, what is your personal experience with trans people and with teenagers?

I've talked with some trans teenagers (before you ask, they were +18). Some online, some offline (one of whom I would hope people here recognize). They lived under parents who were very unsupportive. I'm only aware of the parent's relationships with their kids via the kids themselves so I'm obviously aware of biases they would have. But even independent of their kid's identity, they were not exactly what anyone would consider "great" parents. Even in these circumstances where haircuts were essentially mandated of a certain length and clothing of a certain style, while they certainly would feel "odd" compared to the average, they were fairly close to being seen as their preferred gender.

Yes, absolutely, certain features are decided by a genetic roll of the dice. This can have variable levels of impact on appearance, especially with testosterone inducing body and facial hair growth. Trans people who are trying to present as their preferred gender, even if not on HRT, can put a lot of time and money into their appearance. How well they "pass" is subjective, and even then, none of them are going to be seen as fashion models at this point. But a lot of trans people have stories where they fall into what could jokingly be considered "Schrödinger's gender".

Grayblades wrote:

people who by the fact of thier age are hyperfixated on the bodies of the opposite sex.

Maybe the American school system is such a uniquely American experience that certain details are different for people outside of it. Alternatively, and maybe I should have realized this, mine was exceptionally good. Lots of people are very overweight, lots of people shows signs of being very malnourished in the past or present. Many people have other developmental issues. Most people in general don't look like they just walked off of a movie set. I went to highschool with a lot of these people. A lot of these people were friends with each other.

It is possible I and my friends just won the magic lottery ticket, or school has radically changed since I've been there, but a lot of people I know, as well as myself, felt much more bullied and harassed before high school than during it. There were defiantly highschool fights, but most of it was sparked by dating/relationship drama, or attempts to be a class clown while physically abusing someone randomly. This was also at a time when "that's gay" or the f-slur was used as an insult as well, even in front of teachers.

Lots of teenage guys would make crude and gross comments about females, girls would spread gossip about which ones they found attractive, but it was mostly in private with their close circle. A lot of people were not what most would consider traditionally attractive but even then, most of the time this was jokingly pointed out by friends as almost a bit of endearment than an insult. Again, it is more possible that my experiences were exceptional, and that my experiences with teenagers since then were also exceptional.

So you think that because kids might be bullied it should be illegal to address them as how they prefer to be addressed? Because again, that's the issue. DeSantis literally making preferred pronouns illegal.

You can't deflect from that with "well, what if the mean teens bully them". He's making going by a pronoun he doesn't approve of you going by illegal. No hand wringing about bullying makes that okay, so deflecting from it to bullying clearly indicates you don't care about the obvious drastic overreach he's performing

I have no experience with trans people in school, it was after my time, but I have plenty of experience of teenage bullying in school. I've been bullied, my friends have been bullied and I've seen several in my family bullied across several schools.

I have been through the gauntlet, found wanting and been cast down into depression and reclusion; it has cast a long, deep shadow over much of my life. I thank god that none of us were driven to suicide.

I may not have first hand experience of the strain of putting off transition until after 18, but it seems absurd to me that it could ever outweigh the deluge of bullying that will ensue if they do otherwise, worse if they try to keep it secret.

I have no faith in the ability of any teenager to maintain such a deception throughout their time in education. There is no makeup, no clothing that can keep the uncanny valley effect away for such a timeframe of exposure to so many eyes, certainly nothing a teenager can be expected to maintain.

Aside from going downright reclusive; they will be outed eventually and it will end poorly as the attempt at deception serves only enlargen the target painted on thier back.

It frankly seems cruel to be allowing an endeavour with such a cavalcade of detriment whose sole benefit not being obliterated is entirely dependant on landing the el dorado of schools; one that isn't occupied by the mk1 teenager.

Cool. Does that mean you think it should be illegal to identify as trans in schools and for teachers to risk being sacked if they respect their students pronouns then?

Cause thats what we are discussing, not the possibility of bullying.

@Greyblades

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive. I do often forget that my experiences in school are often very different from what others went through.

I wasn't really bullied in high school, but it did happen to me in junior-high The exact timeframe and ages aren't perfect in my memory, but I believe that the incidents that stick out the most were done by people who were about to or had just turned 13. Kicking on the playground when I fell down, as well as two separate instances of being pinned against a wall with a hand on my neck. One was a student that was developmentally challenged and they just found me annoying. Another was a student who was upset that I didn't like people cutting in the lunch line (though I would be surprised if that was the only reason). Thankfully everyone knew I was "a good kid" I didn't fight back, and there were witnesses (in the kicking incident my mom had already brought it up to the school board before a teacher herself witnessed it). I wouldn't say I had it 'easy' but I do forget that if I didn't have all of that going for me, it could have been much worse.

I believe wasn't really bullied in high school as it was mostly comprised of relative strangers during freshmen year and by modern school standards was extremely small. There were not that many pre-existing cliques. It was also in the mid to late aughts before polarization became nearly impossible to ignore.

Most experiences with teenagers since then have similarly been with those who were relative strangers to each other. Mostly volunteer projects or science camps, where the only people who go there are people who want to be there. This of course isn't the experience most people in high school have.

I also apologize in the tone of some of how I've come across as feel I've rather offensively misinterpreted the intent of some of your earlier posts. I do understand a lot more as to why you think the way you do, and it is something I can sympathize with a lot more than I thought it would be.

Compelled speech is cringe.

I'd like to point out, that a law that says you can't respect a students pronouns could easily make the bullying worse as well.

Asshole teens are smart and will go after safe targets. If the school district isn't allowed to treat trans students as legitimate, it means they can't punish the bullies as easily, since if they are any point state the reason the students are in trouble is for bullying a trans student for being trans the parents of the bullies can say the school is breaking the law. It makes the bullying even easier

As someone who has friends my age who are trans and have talked to a teen who is trans in the current times what hurts most is when people don't respect their gender identity, especially their own family
that's far worse than bullying

Guys I think communism is going to win

Trying to force respect doesn't create respect, it creates more anger.

Jill said:

I also apologize in the tone of some of how I've come across as feel I've rather offensively misinterpreted the intent of some of your earlier posts. I do understand a lot more as to why you think the way you do, and it is something I can sympathize with a lot more than I thought it would be.

Ce'st la vie.

A man who says they've never reacted in a way he regretted over something he misinterpreted is a liar or an oddly verbose infant.

Misinterpretation is about 60% of internet correspondance… corresponance in general, really, I cannot claim exception I am hardly the greatest communicator, sending or recieving.

Kenetic Kups said:

As someone who has friends my age who are trans and have talked to a teen who is trans in the current times what hurts most is when people don't respect their gender identity, especially their own family
that's far worse than bullying

What makes you think that wont be the core method of bullying? That easy a button to hit will be hammered into the dirt until it stops working and in this case, above all the conventional bullying targets, I think that will never happen but for those of the greatest fortitude.

The choice I see is between a school life being inadvertently unintentionally direspected or one being actively, intentionally disrespected, in addition to being denied, belittled shamed and worse.

You want acceptance and respect for the divergeant; a modern school is the last place to find it. It's an enviroment that over the last half century been deprived of it's capacity to restrain the worst impulses of the peak age bracket for misanthropy, that it jams together in close quarters and unmanageable numbers cut off from the rest of society for 6-8 hours a day.

A public school is last of that last place.

More opressed than Incels or Gamers clearly….

Ce'st la vie.

A man who says they've never reacted in a way he regretted over something he misinterpreted is a liar or an oddly verbose infant.

Misinterpretation is about 60% of internet correspondance… corresponance in general, really, I cannot claim exception I am hardly the greatest communicator, sending or recieving.

A great example of my communication ineptitude is that I forget to say "apology accepted", though it was unnecissary; I've been on the internet for 10-15 years now, my sensitivity to offense has been fairly dulled.

So I am guessing its now possible than in like 10 years homosexuality will go back to being illegal in the USA? I thought things were going in the opposite direction….welp….

I have no idea, I know of no convenient historical precedent for the last few years but the parallels I can draw are dire.

Homosexuality has had it's identifying mark draped over the majority of the current political establishment; they cling to thier rainbow with segregationist chevron like a patriot clings to his stars and stripes. As the establishment is currently in terminal decline, tightening it's grip and lashing out semi blindly at it's perceived enemies to maintain control while thier stubborn persistence in failed policy makes everyone's lives noticeably worse, all that bad feeling generated is being associated with the banner of homosexuality as much as it is the blue mule.

Compounding that are the sheer amount of creeps coming out of the woodwork believing they can use the same method to gain acceptance they did, the public perception of the movements are becoming less the clean cut gay couple who are just like everyone else, or the poor trans trying to live with his or her condition, and more that paedophile choir who sang "we're coming for your kids" on youtube.

There's probably going to be something resembling the Thermidorian reaction somewhere in the next few decades and I have no idea how far we are going to go, but I can guess who's going to find themselves graduating from mascot to scapegoat.

I was here to watch "we're not doing anything, you're just paranoid" turn into "you're a danger to yourself" turn into "you're a danger to others" turn into "we're banning you from public spaces" turn into "we're banning anyone from talking about anything relating to you" to "we're making it so people are required to disrespect you for your own good" accompanied by "this is the last bad thing we'll do we swear"

state-sanctioned bullying is not better than the possibility of being bullied while still being able to be comfortable with yourself. in fact, the very same people who want to outright ban people from being able to refer to trans people with the right pronouns are the ones who encourage that sort of bullying.

but hey, they've tried to do this or similar with practically everyone or everything that threatens the status quo since forever now. see the history of blood libel for reference.

"nothing like a good old revocation of human rights and decency masked under "protecting children," right, jack???"

state-sanctioned bullying is not better than the possibility of being bullied while still being able to be comfortable with yourself.

You have it backwards; bullying is the overwhelmingly likely outcome to which the absence is the miniscule possibility. The teaching staff playing along will do nothing but encourage the trans students to wreck thier school years in an attempt at catharsis that is all but guaranteed to be crushed and see the experience hang over them for the rest of thier lives far worse than keeping thier head down until adulthood.

Schools absolutely should not be encouraging or enabling the self destruction of their students.

If your solution to bullying is to eradicate and discourage all forms of deviance so nobody is different from one another then I can only imagine what your solution to things like racism are.

It doesnt matter what race or sexuality they make the characters I aint watching those disney live-action remakes

I don't know what's funnier, the fact that you might genuinely believe what you say, or the fact that you expect us to believe it. I imagine next you're going to start telling us about how segregation of schools is true freedom because either racial group doesn't see each other enough to dislike each other.

If I went around and took every half-assed or detrimental solution to the world's problems to heart I'd never get anything done. And half-assed and detrimental they are.

Bullies in school? Ban anyone from being different. Discrimination? Just eradicate anyone against the status quo from the public sphere.

After all, the fault must surely lie in the victim and not the perpetrator, yes? Fixing the problem at its roots would require you to acknowledge some people you're not fond of as being worthy of respect and decency, so it's better to tear up the whole thing, no?

I sure am glad not everybody thinks like this, and it's for the better that most people who do don't hold political power, otherwise we'd be living in a world that Aldous Huxley would shudder at.

Can someone tell me what the fuck Matt Walsh means by this?

Call me paranoid but this sounds like he's making a threat. There was also that story a while back of far right extremists attempting to use a moving truck to infiltrate a Pride parade. I'm already fearing the possibility some bigot is going to go full truck of peace on a parade, or worse.

Would not for a second be surprised if it is funding some parasite to murder some people

Why not? It works in most other first world countries. But then again, most other first world countries' schools have properly-paid teachers, adequately-worked teachers, properly-paid staff, properly-funded systems, and administrations with proper leadership. Except in America. Why is that I wonder?

Oh, how I dearly wish that was true. To a degree it might even have been so a decade ago, but I am afraid after the Europeans allowed the Syrian civil war to excuse flooding thier countries with migrants much of first world countries public schools have followed the Americans into overload.

Why did gray get suspended?
I hardly think having some dumb views should get you punished here

Call me paranoid but this sounds like he's making a threat. There was also that story a while back of far right extremists attempting to use a moving truck to infiltrate a Pride parade. I'm already fearing the possibility some bigot is going to go full truck of peace on a parade, or worse.

Eh, reads to me like he's deliberately using vague and scary language to bring more eyes on to whatever he's doing. Keeping in mind that his documentary "What is a Woman" released at the start of last year's pride month, it's likely either a book or another documentary.

Why did gray get suspended?
I hardly think having some dumb views should get you punished here

Yeah, it's quite cringe. He did mention a few months ago iirc that he was being warned about being too spicy on trans topics, but this wasn't even that spicy. I have a hunch, though, that a mod or two declared a vendetta against him and were only waiting for a chance to punish him for stepping too far out of line.

I've noticed that Wraizd was banned as well. He was significantly more spicy, but still within the bounds of whatever we have for written rules here (though as I've said before, there's jack fucking shit in the way of actual rules for user conduct siteside, only for media uploads and entries).

In unrelated news, I'm now a communist.

Be carefull now or you’ll go the way of hotsky

and while i thonk wrazid was an utter moron i don’t remember him doing anything other than being disengenious and an asshole in debates, but i could be wrong with his utter disregard for anything not siad by conspiracy theorists
and grey definitly doesn’t seem to have broken rules

unless one or both of them were likebotting

Don't worry, I'm going for more of a hippie or Bernsteinist type, not a tankie.

Leftists can be disingenuous assholes in debates with no consequence, so either one or more mods had a vendetta against him, too, or the unspoken rules are applied unevenly. Possibly both.

I doubt that either were likebotting. Personally I don't necessarily believe it's actually a thing here, though it may be possible that some participate in some quiet brigading sometimes. If Grey were fudging votes, why are basically all his replies on this page saddled with like, three times as many downvotes as there are recent participants? It simply doesn't follow.

Edit: Also frankly I think we all should just steer clear of trans topics for a while, regardless of what anyone has to say. It's clearly too severely hot-button for us to be mature about it for more than a post or two.

>Why was X Banned/Suspended/Warned

Cause they broke the rules. Let's go back to our regularly-scheduled politicing and associated doomscrolling please.

I don't personally think gray was responsible, but i have noticed that whenever him and a couple other users post here on the forums all of a sudden the like dislike counters change by like 3-5 now I don't think it's him because it doesn't seem like he'd complain about dislikes and draw attention to himself while doing that, but it was a thought

anyways back to normal posting