Forums / Maintenance / Suggest Ideas

I haven't had to deal with the problem personally but I've noticed it being spammed on users. Motivates people to stop talking if they know their opinion will get lots of negative karma. I don't see this system on other forums and I think I get why. Just putting the thought out there in case someone else feels the same.

The purpose of karma is to let people know if their post was liked or not. It's their problem if they're not brave enough to handle the negative karma. Hell, I've seen a lot of commenters just post their shit, and it has a bunch of downvotes. Perhaps they've just done it for bait, or they actually have balls and they can handle those downvotes.

Eh, fuck if I know.

Upvotes/downvotes are totally pointless beyond fake internet validation, I agree.

However, and I'm sorry to put it this blunty, but really they are just numbers on your profile. A person able to apply critical thinking does not value someone else's input based solely on how many +1s it has. If you're here because you want to build some kind of glowing reputation on the internet then this is probably a bigger deal for you, but eh, Karoler shitposted loads and earned a lot of red numbers and we still like him.

The issue is not downvotes IMO but people caring about them in the first place. Let's see, according to my profile, I have been downvoted at least 70 times. But whatever. No one has judged me here based on that as far as I'm aware. On the flipside there's a shiny green 2,000 next to that red 70, make of that what you will.

This has been discussed so many times, and the primary issue is that the forums are just too low-profile on the site to be worth any major changes.

Anyways, maybe now isn't the best time to remove karma.

Motivates people to stop talking

This is, in fact, the point. The entire point. A downvote on a web forum doesn't mean "I respect your opinion but disagree", it means "shut the fuck up". It's also in the Frequently Suggested Ideas thread already, which is stickied for a reason.

As much as we love to make fun of them, people that complain about downvoting on the forums is fairly common. I'm glad you've taken up their mantle and chosen to be the white knight the posters need, but seriously go outside.

Now in all seriousness, this has been asked a number of times for various reasons. The short of it is that voting is so useless it isn't worth the effort to remove. This is why no changes to the system will ever be made. We have discussed karma changes to the ends of the fucking earth. Seriously. If we were ever going to remove voting, it would be because the system literally used to slow KYM down to the point of being unusable.

If you can't tell by the sheer number of similar/duplicate threads I've linked here, there's really nothing else to be said on the matter. Don't get your hopes up. If you are truly bothered by your personal vote scores, remember that votes on comments aren't tallied on your profile. Or, y'know, don't post.

TL;DR: no.

I have been observing people complaining about downvote bombings and downvotes on specific posts. I have been observing the chief people who want the karma system have lots of upvotes routinely.

I do not believe that is a healthy atmosphere to uphold and we need to accept this is affecting a lot of people in a very negative way.

Did you forget the part where we've talked about this before, or the part where I said nobody cares enough to get it removed? We'd be ripping out a part of the site's functionality because a super mega small tiny portion of the users felt bad about it. That's not an exaggeration, the forums are like nothing compared to the comments. Downvote spamming can be completely reverted within a few days if it's pointed out (with evidence) to the moderators, as for complaining about downvotes on posts you're basically complaining about the site itself which as we already said has been covered so many times so it just looks kinda bad.

I tried to get karma changed. But I realized by the end, it's not important enough. I really mean it, it literally does not matter enough. There are a hundred changes that are easier to do and more influential to KYM as a whole. I was actually compiling a list of sorts about that earlier, so I know there are a lot of simple changes that could be easily done.

So, to recap – it doesn't matter enough, people don't care enough, it's hard, we've already covered this a lot, and there are better things to do.

I have been observing people

under normal circumstances I'd tell you that seniority on KYM means very little, if nothing at all. That being said…

I think you can afford to observe a little longer before you enter your self-righteous phase.

…complaining about downvote bombings and downvotes on specific posts.

If you mean the two most recent threads in question you'll see that downvote spamming is, despite not being against a single site rule, still a punishable offense. Users abusing the vote system and being punished shortly after does not justify the removal of the entire system. If a user uploads an NC image to a gallery, we don't lock the gallery, we ban the user. Yes, whoever saw the image may have been affected, but that's kinda how we do things here.

…the chief people who want the karma system have lots of upvotes routinely.

I'm opting to ignore the subjectivity of both "lots" and "routinely" here because, frankly, they don't matter anyways. If you were to do a site-wide survey (of which only one user is actually able to do ) and reliably prove that a majority of KYM users were in favour of removing the karma system, this would be a different issue. KYM is not a democracy, and even if it was, it certainly wouldn't be dictated by the vocal few and their upvote counts. it's pretty damn easy to contact the people in charge of KYM, and the complete removal of the karma system has never been on the table. This doesn't mean your voice is being ignored, it means that you are the vast minority in a community that doesn't care about the issue.

I do not believe that is a healthy atmosphere to uphold…

I don't think anybody does, really. KYM allows rampant political debate, the documentation of fetishes, and the mass collection and uploading of other people's intellectual property without consent. If you're worried that KYM users won't be able to hold hands and sing along together, you've taken a really wrong turn somewhere. By accepting the KnowYourMeme terms of use you affirmed that you are over 18 years of age, or can at least lie about it. There is no kid-friendly section.

…we need to accept this is affecting a lot of people in a very negative way.

We
Not you.

A lot of people
An exceedingly small and sorta vocal part of the community.

In a very negative way
By hurting their feelings on the internet.

Upvote-downvote systems are the exact opposite of a unique site feature, and can be found on most internet forums, and make up a large portion of the top-ranking sites on Alexa. Google's G+ and Youtube, Facebook, and Reddit alone are all within the top 10. If you're not happy with that, nobody is forcing you to participate in online discussion. If you'd still argue that all of these systems are unhealthy, I cannot fault you for thinking such, but my previous advice to go outside is still valid.

And since I wasn't clear enough before, apparently:

Voting is so useless it isn’t worth the effort to remove.

Thank you for your contribution to KnowYourMeme's suggestion boards.

Well, I cannot say these responses are particularly pleasing, but I understand you all have your own culture you wish to uphold. It is odd the main arguments are "this has been talked about before" and "nobody cares" as that is a contradiction in itself. If people don't care why are they talking about it? If it is a vocal minority, doesn't that indicate this is affecting a minority of users in a very negative way? Are they not important because they are a minority? I hope you will all continue to influence and guide this site to a happy sociable culture, but this "I think you can afford to observe a little longer before you enter your self-righteous phase" "And since I wasn’t clear enough before, apparently" kind of rhetoric just makes me feel bad and like me and my opinions don't matter and are not wanted. It is your calls, but I want to share with you all my feelings so we may together grow as friends of the same culture rather than bottle up our feelings because they are in minority or people have been denied in the past.

I'm not one to hop on this train, but…

Well, I cannot say these responses are particularly pleasing

We're acting like this because you're being a bit of a prick, no offense.

but I understand you all have your own culture you wish to uphold.

Not much I can say about this, 'cause it's… not wrong.

It is odd the main arguments are “this has been talked about before” and “nobody cares” as that is a contradiction in itself. If people don’t care why are they talking about it?

Just because people talk about it doesn't mean they care about it. "Do you like Mario?" "Not really much of a gamer, sorry."

It's basically the point we've been making in this entire fucking thread, yet you somehow refuse to understand that. If we don't care, why the fuck should you?

If it is a vocal minority, doesn’t that indicate this is affecting a minority of users in a very negative way?

It's their fucking problem, not ours or the karma system's.

I hope you will all continue to influence and guide this site to a happy sociable culture, but this “I think you can afford to observe a little longer before you enter your self-righteous phase” “And since I wasn’t clear enough before, apparently” kind of rhetoric just makes me feel bad and like me and my opinions don’t matter and are not wanted.

Hey kid, hate to break it to you, but what you feel does not apply to everybody on this site. Know what pisses people off (HINT HINT) and avoid doing all of that, then you'll have a good time.

It is your calls, but I want to share with you all my feelings so we may together grow as friends of the same culture rather than bottle up our feelings because they are in minority or people have been denied in the past.

…I feel like you're doing the "intelligent phrases = intelligent argument" bullshit.

Not everybody you meet has to be your friend. You could have legitimate reasons to keep your feelings to yourself. Is it good to speak up? The answers to that question ranges from "of course" to "hell no" to, ultimately, "it depends." But now is not the time to talk about that.

Look, in the end, we're not going to do anything about the karma because there is nothing to do. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The only things I see broken here are the people complaining about imaginary meme points on a meme site. And most importantly…

WHY

SHOULD

YOU

CARE?

Quite frankly, much of this is fairly emotionally charged, and I don't care if there's some stuff I got completely wrong.

It is odd the main arguments are “this has been talked about before” and “nobody cares” as that is a contradiction in itself. If people don’t care why are they talking about it?

The karma system removal idea is only ever brought up when a user believes someone (usually themselves) has been the victim of (what they personally believe) downvotes over unjustifies reasons. That's the thing with karma, people get psyched when their post reaches +20, but they have trouble dealing with even 5 downvotes.

The solution: Face that you can be unfunny or make bad posts. If negative karma was only ever handed out over unjustified reasons, why would it exist? You probably deserved that downvote, and understanding that is part of the learning process and why karma works. If karma didn't work, we wouldn't have this thread; except we do so now it's up to you to face the points.

I hope you will all continue to influence and guide this site to a happy sociable culture, but this “I think you can afford to observe a little longer before you enter your self-righteous phase” “And since I wasn’t clear enough before, apparently” kind of rhetoric just makes me feel bad and like me and my opinions don’t matter and are not wanted. It is your calls, but I want to share with you all my feelings so we may together grow as friends of the same culture rather than bottle up our feelings because they are in minority or people have been denied in the past.

I rest my case. This is an attempt at pity votes, and if someone downvotes that post you probably deserved it. C'est la vie.

No, I just care about people and giving them a good environment.

…but I understand you all have your own culture you wish to uphold.

It's more like the site culture, given how long-lasting this issue is.

If people don’t care why are they talking about it?

Because those "people" (read: you) won't stop posting to get sympathy for their downvotes.

Are they not important because they are a minority?

They are important proportional to the portion of the site they make up, and then weighted relative to their contributions. I can't do that kind of math in my head, but I assure you this value rounds down to nothing. So no, they really aren't. If you feel that this injustice has violated your constitutional rights, feel free to contact your local MP.

…kind of rhetoric just makes me feel bad and like me and my opinions don’t matter and are not wanted.

Most suggestion/complaint threads would be lucky to get a useful mod response, let alone 2. This issue literally cannot be made more explicitly clear than we have here, and yet your insistence that "we need to accept" the issue is an indication that you're not here to create whatever Disneyland culture you're pretending to care about. At this point your "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude is more indicative of your extreme emotional investment in the issue. Emotional investment in the internet in any capacity is unhealthy and you should seek some kind of real-life mediation for this issue. There is a reason I keep telling you to go outside.

I want to share with you all my feelings so we may together grow as friends of the same culture rather than bottle up our feelings because they are in minority or people have been denied in the past.

This is either 100% arbitrary buzzwords, or your genuine feelings on the matter. If it is the former, please stop posting because you're not touching any hearts here. "Think of the children users!" is not justification for anything you've said, it is a plea for pity. If it is the latter please talk to an actual human being about your feelings. Nobody on the internet is under any obligation to respect or acknowledge others' feelings, and certainly not to the degree of removing the only positive/negative feedback system we have. I'm sorry you had to hear it from us, but this really isn't something you (or any of us) have control over. If this bothers you on a fundamental level, seek emotional counselling.

No, I just care about people and giving them a good environment.

False.

Stage 3: Bargaining.

This thread is about an idea not who can one-up the other user. Defending an idea really should not produce this much hostility.

It seems kind of odd that you're complaining about downvotes when, according to your profile, you've downvoted 9 posts. Methinks if you seek to curb the downvoting problem, you ought to start with your own downvoting. Lobbying for the systems removal when you yourself have clearly been using it seems kind of disingenuous.

Fair point, I would undeniably agree…

…if that was the case here. Have you really been defending your idea here? Looking at your last 3 posts, you're aiming for pity and are mainly defending yourself; defending your idea has become a thing of myths and folklore to you.

So here's the verdict:
- You get back on topic; we get back on topic.
- Alternatively: I lock this.

I'm just going to formally request a lock and have a mod temporarily sticky some General Discussion thread about the karma shit going on. This is like the 4th karma thread in maintenance this week and it's really going nowhere. If people want to push bad ideas forward thats fine, but at least have them in the same are as one another, as opposed to this single-user-asking-mods cycle we have going.

Keyword here being general discussion. We are not suggesting the complete removal of the karma system, nor are we saying it is off the table outside of the admins. Less argument and more discussion.

And someone tell Rivers she's allowed to have a survey in it.

Should be noted all the posts on my wall suddenly got downvoted once almost definitely by the same user.

Does this happen often with comments too?

It happens to me a bit on a Thursday sometimes but I don't complain much anymore. I just deal with it. Downvotes don't hurt too much on comments at all (Even less so) because they don't count towards scores. Just ignore them and actually try to improve your comments. I know you're new but actually try to think of jokes that are still funny towards people that are also original.

Tried to put it in the least asshole-ish way possible.

whenever someone gets petty or sees someone who might care about a blemish like that, yeah

don't sweat any forms of upvote or downvote around here though, pal, dedicated members recognize each other by their real reputation and not a bunch of color coded numbers

if someone decides that you shouldn't be trusted as a person because you've gotten more red numbers than him, you can laugh that guy out the room. if anything, being downvote ridden means that you're either an honest person not afraid to speak their mind out or a pretty effective troll, which wouldn't be too bad to have around here

Alright, locking this and redirecting.